The "Better" Caster

[drengnikrafe]

I want to gather up some opinions here....

In your personal opinion, which is better, the Wizard, or the Sorcerer? Just, in general.

[Thinker]

Wizard for the versatility. Spontaneous casting is nice, but with scrolls and wands there isn't as much need for it.

[Nebo_]

Wizard.

You don't know what you've started here...

[drengnikrafe]

I appologize, but I wanted to see if other people also thought that Wizards were the much better version of a caster...

[Zincorium]

Sorcerers have delayed spell acquisition, no bonus feats, and considering specialization, only one more spell of each level. The loss of versatility alone makes them less useful to a tactical minded player than a wizard.

Sorcerers are good, really good, but wizards have too many advantages for them to be the best.

[streakster]

Wizards? More powerful.

Sorcerers? More fun.

[Avor]

Sorceres are good for new players, to introduce them to arcane spell casting.

But the fact is that they can only know a given number of spells, where as a wizzard can know every single spell, all they have do is find somebody to copy it from.

[melchizedek]

Personally, I vastly prefer playing sorcerers, but I agree Wizards are significantly more powerful.

[Avor]

Personally, I vastly prefer playing sorcerers, but I agree Wizards are significantly more powerful.

I generaly agree, Sorcerers fill of the roll of artiliery, just a slew of damage spells. Wizzards are there as "Just in case" guy, they use magic to overcome a given specific obstical, such as a certain monster type, echantment, or enemy boss.

[Emperor Tippy]

Power wise its wizards hands down. Preference wise is entirely a personal call, for me it depends on the character concept.

[Aquillion]

Personally, I vastly prefer playing sorcerers, but I agree Wizards are significantly more powerful.I enjoy selecting spells each day, really. It's fun to try and plan ahead.

But in terms of power, there's no question. Wizards get spells sooner, they get several bonus feats, they're better with metamagic (the delay for sorcerers makes it almost useless -- there's ways around this, but you have to do things like trade in your familiar, which could be traded in for other things, too), they're more versatile, etc, etc, etc.

[holywhippet]

Saying a wizard is more versatile is a bit debatable though. A wizard might know the right spell for a particular situation but not have it memorised or not have it memorised enough times. If the sorcerer has the spell and has enough remaining casting for that spell slot they cast the spell straight away.

Wizards have more spells true, but a sorcerer can just get wands for the spells they didn't learn.

[TheCountAlucard]

Being a sorcerer is easier, simply because you can cast any spell you know without worrying about preparing it. However, a sorcerer is still limited to what he knows, unless he has some sort of scroll or item that grants him use of the spell.

Still, I think having to say, "Sorry, I prepared Magic Missile today, but I didn't prepare it twice!" makes the wizard just a little harder to use for a new player compared to the sorcerer.

[tyckspoon]

Saying a wizard is more versatile is a bit debatable though. A wizard might know the right spell for a particular situation but not have it memorised or not have it memorised enough times. If the sorcerer has the spell and has enough remaining casting for that spell slot they cast the spell straight away.

Wizards have more spells true, but a sorcerer can just get wands for the spells they didn't learn.

No. It's not debatable. There *are* such things as general purpose spell lists. They look pretty similar for both a wizard and a sorcerer. The difference is that the Sorcerer is largely stuck with his and can't afford to sacrifice very many spells known to very limited used special-case spells. The wizard can learn those special-case spells without sacrificing anything more than book space (and money, if he isn't taking advantage of one of the four or so ways to scribe for free.) He can then proceed to memorize a copy of said special-case spell in case he has forewarning that it's needed. He can also just scribe a scroll of it with his free bonus feat and forget about it until the right situation comes up. Or leave the situation alone for a day and come back with the right spell later. He can also make use of wands just as well as the Sorcerer may, but he has less need of them to augment his spell list in the first place. Because he's more versatile.

(Let's pretend we already had the discussion about time-limited activities preventing leaving and resting to shuffle your spell list. It's never resulted in anything useful.)

[skywalker]

(Let's pretend we already had the discussion about time-limited activities preventing leaving and resting to shuffle your spell list. It's never resulted in anything useful.)

Yes. Please.

Wizards are more powerful, I have more fun with sorcerers. They die at about the same rate, in my experience.

Charisma for the win!

[Aquillion]

Also, though this has been touched on before: In any case, they're both very powerful. So it's not something you need to worry about in most games.

[sikyon]

Wizards hands down. Not only do they get better spell selection but they get spell levels faster which is a HUGE difference. If the sorceror/wizard switched spell level advancement then it would be interesting.

I like sorcerors though, it's easy. And wizards get abit tedious as they're all about running away (though really, that's the smartest thing to do by far, but not so good for a story).

Really though, whenever someone says that a wizard might not have prepared the spell beforehand, it's more likely that the sorcerer never memorized that spell at all.

[Kurald Galain]

Try the Beguiler, it's like sorcerer only better :smallwink:

[Bag_of_Holding]

In terms of pure power, it's definitely Wizard. Personal preference? Sorcerer for sure.

[MelkorsHalo]

The wizard can learn those special-case spells without sacrificing anything more than book space (and money, if he isn't taking advantage of one of the four or so ways to scribe for free.)

blast. i hate not knowing things. what are these ways you speak of?

[mostlyharmful]

Druid. Feel the wrath of my treehugger power!!!!. My hippiness shall defeat you.:smallbiggrin:

[Gorbash]

Well, it's obvious that wizards are better, I just wanted to say why I like wizards better (except the obvious). I really like being the smartest in the party. Or generally having a high INT score. Yeah, it sure is cool to be able to persuade anyone to do anything, being prettier and all that. But intelligence is raw power, I'd go with that any day. And of course, just compare Wizard lvl 7 and Sorcerer lvl 7, guess who's better...

[Fishy]

You know, Sorcerers can buy scrolls for 'just in case' situations, and then forget about them until necessary. It works just as well. Yes, the Wizard has a slightly easier go of it, but I don't think that alone makes that big of a difference.

But yeah, feats, spells, etc, etc.

[valadil]

Wizards are better. The get spells a level sooner. They can learn spells via scrolls. Quicken works out of the box (whereas sorcerers need a PHB2 variant or a feat). And they get bonus metamagic or crafting feats every five levels.

I like playing sorcerers better though, provided you get a fast metamagic option. I like improvising more than planning. It's just how I am. If you've got a lot of metamagic (thank you, incantatrix) and a well planned spell list, you can build up a spell as needed. And if you need that extra versatility you can always carry scrolls (how many campaigns require more than a couple stone shapes anyway) or take some levels of Mage of the Arcane Order (4 levels of that gives you up to level 6 spells, and fits with 6 levels of sorc and 10 incantatrix).

[Artanis]

The Wizard is the better caster IF you can plan ahead well enough to make it work. I, for one, can't plan ahead worth a damn, so I'd wind up doing a LOT better with a Sorcerer than I would with a Wizard.

[Solo]

Try the Beguiler, it's like sorcerer only better :smallwink:

Sorcerer: I cast Mind Blank on myself.

Beguiler: Sh!t

[Kurald Galain]

Sorcerer: I cast Mind Blank on myself.
By that time they're level 16, so by that point the Beguiler has had 15 levels worth of being "sorcerer, only better". Besides, any Beguiler worth his salt knows how to expand his spell list a bit.

[Solo]

By that time they're level 16, so by that point the Beguiler has had 15 levels worth of being "sorcerer, only better". Besides, any Beguiler worth his salt knows how to expand his spell list a bit.

You do realize I am not going to say "Any Sorcerer worth his salt would be able to overcome the Beguiler by making sure he can overcome the many will-save spells the Beguiler will be casting"


The key thing you have to remember about the beguiler is that it casts mainly illusion and enchantment spells, which, at higher level, more and more enemies become immune to.

[tyckspoon]

You know, Sorcerers can buy scrolls for 'just in case' situations, and then forget about them until necessary. It works just as well. Yes, the Wizard has a slightly easier go of it, but I don't think that alone makes that big of a difference.

But yeah, feats, spells, etc, etc.

Making 'em yourself for half price and a neglible xp cost is an appreciable savings when you get to higher-level scrolls. If Scribe Scroll is being used, the wizard can get twice as many scrolls as the sorcerer for the same cost. That's not a small difference. The wizard is also less likely to be forced to use his supply thanks to his ability to change his spell list from day to day; if the sorcerer encounters a situation where he needs a spell that he doesn't know, it's either burn a scroll (or wand charge) or do nothing.

Free scribing:
All of these assume you're getting around paying for access to spells by trading your own, swapping favors, abusing Diplomacy, or whatever. Buying scrolls for the purpose of copying them is not very efficient.

The most obvious and highest initial investment is just to acquire a Blessed Book. Preferably make it yourself, Craft Wondrous is worth having. Contains a thousand pages, removes material costs for scribing. All you need is enough time to sit down and write in it.

There's a PrC that lets you condense any spell to a single page; Geometer, I think. Not quite free, but a good savings. Combine with the Blessed Book and carry around at least a full bookcase worth of spells in one hand.

Fully free scribing and the one your DM is most likely to deny: Cast secret page. Turn a blank page into a spell for the cost of 10 minutes and a 3rd level slot. Double up your spellbook space by layering secret page'd spells over the original spell if you want.

[Ossian]

I allow wizards in my campaigns, but I encourage Sorcerers, for a number of reasons.

One is that there is less book keeping to do.
The second is that they actually are a bit less powerful, which is good for me, since magic in itself is already powerful enough. The later the players get s**t like "pun pun", "Insta kill", "insta win", "wish", the better. OTOH a higher versatility matched with a lighter dependance on items will encourage creative thinking in my caster and in the rest of the party.
I don't like (personally) the spellbook thing that much, and the 10000 pages tome in the backpack idea too is a bit uncomfy. I also love better the concept of spontaneous casting. It fits better my idea of magic. As I see it, the Wizard with items and spellbooks and stuff fits better the role of 'archmage' NPC (archmage as in 'miko is a samurai'. Not necessarily with levels in the namesake class)
With all the prestige classes and multiclasses available, the power gap will hardly be noticed.
My players are not that power hungry and more combat oriented.
With the Unearthed Aracan you can start off without being a total deadweight for your party, picking the battle sorceror.


Osian

[Draz74]

Besides, any Beguiler worth his salt knows how to expand his spell list a bit.

QFT. Even if a Beguiler doesn't powergame enough to pick up, for example, Arcane Disciple, most Beguilers will at least have a good UMD skill.

[Overlord]

Wizard.

You don't know what you've started here...

Oh, he has no idea how serious these people can get!

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/internetstooserious.jpg

[_Zoot_]

I would love to say that Sorcerers are better, but as much as it pains me to say they're not. The preparing spells each day thing means that Wizards can take advantage of all the spells that make one activity simpler, the spells that a Sorcerer would never spend a slot on. (scrolls solve this problem, if you ask me, but there are disadvantages to them)).

Sorcerers do, i think make better blasters and that has got to be worth something (Isn't it :smalleek:)

Both have some interesting plot ideas in them,
-Sorcerers get the wole 'their oftern hated/mistrusted/unloved(:smallfrown:) and thus might want to help others to prover that there not evil.

-And the first thing i thourt when i read Wizard was "if i evar play one of these, im going hunt down and kill other wizards to take their spell books":smallsmile:

But it really dosn't matter witch is the better caster, we should all just focus on how much better arcane casters are than all other classes. :smallbiggrin:

[senrath]

For sheer power, as people have said, it is Wizard. The potential to have access to every arcane spell in existence is just win.

However, I prefer sorcerer, mostly because I love spontaneous casting. It's just a flavor preference for most people, but I've learned the hard way that I'm horrible at choosing the right spells each day.