OOTS #544 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

I'm taking a chance putting this up before work hours; hopefully the server can handle it. If not, the message boards might have to come down for a few hours.

[Fenix]

Good one !!

[Master_Forcide]

Have to say, did not expect a new one at this hour. :smallsmile:

[Dark Wolf]

It never occurred to me the strange light in the sky was the rift. I assumed it was the Cloister.

However I'm a bit perplexed. There didn't seem to be much of a joke and I'm not sure I understood what happened.

[Scalenex]

This week's OoS isn't bad. It's hard to find a comic that will advance the plot and use good hunor. It's nice that there was a subtle reference to waterboarding.

[KIDS]

Redcloak and his "ken" are confirmed to be my heroes. Keep up the good work!

[Dark Wolf]

Fair enough I guess. The plot must be advanced.

[Ghastly Epigram]

You chance taker you. :smallamused:

Nice comic, liked the pale effect thingy.

[BlueHelmet]

yeah, the waterbording reference is, well, let's say well done.



It never occurred to me the strange light in the sky was the rift. I assumed it was the Cloister.

to me neither ...

good job, looking forward to the next comic though.

[SPoD]

However I'm a bit perplexed. There didn't seem to be much of a joke and I'm not sure I understood what happened.

This is likely the start of a scene involving Redcloak torturing/interrogating/debating with O-Chul; this strip simply sets the scene and dispenses some information about the rift (that it's been growing and is still growing, albeit slower).

Note that in the big panel, there is a tower with a bunch of figures on it on the other side of the rift. My money says that next strip, Redcloak threatens to throw a human into the rift for every time O-Chul lies to him.

[banjo1985]

Nice one...there's not been anywhere near enough Redcloak in recent strips! :smallbiggrin:

[Felixaar]

Interesting, Interesting... I didn't know Cloaky and Pals had such a low chance of harnessing the universe.
First Page.

[battleburn]

What is he trying to do?
I still don't see how this is supposed to convince him to give up the location of the next gate.

A very dark comic, this one. It really sets the dark atmosphere that the story seems to have taken.

I think I like this new direction.

Edit: I also like the purple shading of the entire comic, showing the large amount of light emanating from the rift.
Edit 2:
This is likely the start of a scene involving Redcloak torturing/interrogating/debating with O-Chul; this strip simply sets the scene and dispenses some information about the rift (that it's been growing and is still growing, albeit slower).

Note that in the big panel, there is a tower with a bunch of figures on it on the other side of the rift. My money says that next strip, Redcloak threatens to throw a human into the rift for every time O-Chul lies to him.
I was wondering about the significance of that tower in this comic. And I hadn't thought about that possibility.
And I think it might work.

[Sammich]

I was expecting a really bad pun when I saw the title, to be honest. :smalltongue:

[Demented]

I love it.

For some reason, it really fleshes out the insanity of the bad guys to show their behavior on the precipice of utter annihilation.

Or maybe it's just how the light makes redcloak's eyes seem so much more asymmetrical than normal.

[hajo]

It never occurred to me the strange light in the sky was the rift. I assumed it was the Cloister.
Me too - I assumed that was the visible effect of that summoning 'leak' of the cloister-spell :smallamused:

[Miraqariftsky]

New comic is up.
Ha-ha-ha!

Hold on... looks like Redcloak's lost a tad of his greenness...




I'm taking a chance putting this up before work hours; hopefully the server can handle it. If not, the message boards might have to come down for a few hours.

Mmh-hmm... well... mayhap your Majesty didn't reckon with your... beggin' your insomniac Western fans and those of your Eastern fans who are on vacation and got nowhere else to go while waiting for dinner hour...

[Aurorax]

Looks like Miko keeps giving and giving.

[Santiago]

Hardcore! :smallcool:

[Blaznak]

Well, at least you can say the end of the world looks pretty... :)

Later!

[pendell]

Note that in the big panel, there is a tower with a bunch of figures on it on the other side of the rift. My money says that next strip, Redcloak threatens to throw a human into the rift for every time O-Chul lies to him.

Paladin. O-chul won't lie (though he may be evasive or withhold the truth).

Even if he was willing to go beige, there's always the pesky 'zone of truth'.

I don't quite get Redcloak's closing comment. Is he saying he wants all humans to be killed?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yay, Redcloak gets to be evil for once without Xykon showing him up.

[Sir *TIM!!!!!!*]

"Is it Thursday already?"


Anyways, at least both Redcloak and O-chul have put their cards on the table for the extended gambling metaphor.

[SteveMB]

Looks like Redcloak is trying to convince O-Chul that helping them take over the next gate is the lesser of two evils.

[Niknokitueu]

Hi Rich,
Another Ace. Love it.

Already waiting for more... (gawd I sound selfish)

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[TroyXavier]

Interesting, some definite story progression here and finally someone Redcloak can talk to in a normal way.

[Emperor Demonking]

Annoyingly, I was so distracted by the fact that Redcloak looked weird, I couldn't concentrate on the strip.

[jamroar]

I don't quite get Redcloak's closing comment. Is he saying he wants all humans to be killed?


So much for naive theories that what Redcloak's god wants is simply equality on foot with the PC races. His idea of fairness is to turn goblinkind into the dominant race and exterminate anyone who objects, and is willing to risk destroying the whole world to get his way.

[ref]

Yep, Redcloak isn't making any progress.

Destroyers of the gates:
Lirian's gate: Redcloak.
Dorukan's gate: Elan.
Soon's gate: Miko.

An interesting group of people to be weakening the fabric of the universe, methinks.

[Totally Guy]

I'm suprised O'chul used a word like "ken". I'm only heard Scots say it and that's not the accent I give him.

Unless he got cut off during a longer word.

[SPoD]

I don't quite get Redcloak's closing comment. Is he saying he wants all humans to be killed?

No, he's saying he wants all of the "good guys" to be killed, those who are opposing his plan directly.


So much for naive theories that what Redcloak's god wants is simply equality on foot with the PC races. His idea of fairness is to turn goblinkind into the dominant race and exterminate anyone who objects, and is willing to risk destroying the whole world to get his way.

It's not a "naive theory", it's pretty much exactly what is spelled out as his plan in Start of Darkness. I don't think anyone ever claimed that he wasn't willing to break a few eggs to make that particular omelet, though.

[Daibhid C]

I'm suprised O'chul used a word like "ken". I'm only heard Scots say it and that's not the accent I give him.

Unless he got cut off during a longer word.

It's one of those words that's now only used in one dialect (Scots) normally, but is still used as part of a phrase, in this case "things beyond your ken", which I've seen used by Wonder Woman, and it was also the name of a 1950s BBC radio comedy starring Kenneth Horne. It's probably a quote from something originally.

[factotum]

It's not a "naive theory", it's pretty much exactly what is spelled out as his plan in Start of Darkness.

I don't agree. In his plan in Start of Darkness:


Redcloak explicitly states that all he wants is an equal chance for goblinkind, and that if they get that chance and STILL don't make good, they deserve everything they get.


Nothing there about wanting goblins to be the dominant race, although Redcloak IS willing to see the world destroyed to bring about his "equality"...

[SPoD]

I don't agree. In his plan in Start of Darkness:


Redcloak explicitly states that all he wants is an equal chance for goblinkind, and that if they get that chance and STILL don't make good, they deserve everything they get.


Nothing there about wanting goblins to be the dominant race, although Redcloak IS willing to see the world destroyed to bring about his "equality"...

I agree with you, I was disputing jamroar's assertion that anyone who said that Redcloak's god only wanted equality was putting forth a "naive theory". Although I will say that the words you mention were 30 years ago, and Redcloak has become significantly more vindictive and evil since then.

[Remirach]

Oh. OHHHH. LOVE. Incoherent love. The style of dawn, and all it represents. The lighter shades, for when everything is at its most pure. Redcloak spells out his intentions in such a manner I can't even do it justice.


We all have our gambles. Just 'cause I'm willing to bet on the longshot doesn't mean I don't know the odds. I'm well aware that there's a high chance that what we're doing may result in doomsday for us all. But I pushed my chips into the middle of the table a long time ago, so I may as well play my hand to the end.

It's official: Redcloak is the reason I read this strip.

[Forealms]

It's comics like these that always let me appreciate Redcloak a little more.

[shylocxs]

Poor Redcloak indeed... to know the long odds and still be going for it! That's why we love him.

My Ken plays in a plastic house, however, IN THE NINE HELLS....

Which is really hard, since it keeps melting.

[serow]

I like the colouring, or mis-colouring of #544. Really looks like the pinkish-purplish light is shining on them.

[Deme]

I love the last panel. Officially: there's something oddly funny about Redcloak's line there, but I can't say what. I also like "Is it thursday already?". I can't wait to see where this line of thought is going to go for poor O'Chul.

[Pyro]

I love the panel with the rift. It looks absolutely amazing. So pretty...

[Pronounceable]

Redcloak keeps getting better and better. Who could've guessed?

[Jube]

So much for naive theories that what Redcloak's god wants is simply equality on foot with the PC races. His idea of fairness is to turn goblinkind into the dominant race and exterminate anyone who objects, and is willing to risk destroying the whole world to get his way.

Rather than seeing his kind crushed into extinction as the dominant race becomes more powerfull and his kind wilts off...

Can you blame him?

[a1057soul]

I really like the purple/ping tinge everything has in this comic Giant. Excellent work as always.

(and having finally read Start if Darkness (I bought the other 3 books I was missing a couple weeks ago), i can't wait for what's coming... And bring back the Half-Orc assassin... I can't wait for her plotline to develop...)

Keep 'em coming sir!
:smallsmile:
Dan

[kentma57]

Was that tower in the background filled with humans?

[zuzak]

By the Twelve Gods!

No... but I have it on good authority that they did have a hand in it. Or should I say a paw?

I wonder what this is about. Did the twelve gods decide that giving Redcloak a gate would be better than having him going around and getting them all destroyed? Is Redcloak lying?

My first impression from the strip was that the rift was an illusion. Why would Redcloak need to get to the other gates when he already has this one?

Also, the rift looks pretty far from the tower. I think the people on the other tower are just observers.

[Remirach]

So much for naive theories that what Redcloak's god wants is simply equality on foot with the PC races. His idea of fairness is to turn goblinkind into the dominant race and exterminate anyone who objects, and is willing to risk destroying the whole world to get his way.

Nothing in his attitude here suggests that, nor has his attitude elsewhere suggested it. He dislikes humans for personal reasons but has never claimed to be better or to want "MORE" than what they get... only "AS MUCH." That should be enough or else the goblins "deserve" what they get. He definitely *IS* about promoting his own race but even though he has resentment toward other races he actually hasn't ever said he wants to be considered "superior."

What's egregious HERE is that Redcloak's idea of fairness is that O-chul and all others in opposition should just submit to the joy they find in the afterlife that Redcloak and the Dark One won't obliterate when they re-calibrate existence.

Racism/specism is really the least of his problems.

[Tom90deg]

Hmm...Although never having read SoD (Ordering it as soon as I get back home) this is rather telling of Redcloak. He talks about betting, but he's not really. This isn't a gamble where if he loses, he dies. EVERYONE dies. And I really don't believe his story that all he wants is to be on equal footing with the other races. He may say that, but what happens if they still lose? Redcloak says that they'll just go quietly into the good night, but if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

[warmachine]

Redcloak is a lame torturer. Arguing for the safety of the grave indeed.

[horus02]

uhhh... it's so... purple...

[Saph]

Maybe it's just me, but Redcloak is starting to give off the vibe of being more than a little insane. His comment in the last panel is a bit too enthusiastic.

- Saph

[SPoD]

I wonder what this is about. Did the twelve gods decide that giving Redcloak a gate would be better than having him going around and getting them all destroyed? Is Redcloak lying?

The Twelve Gods helped create the Snarl, by accident. Therefore, they had a hand in what was being viewed at that moment.


My first impression from the strip was that the rift was an illusion. Why would Redcloak need to get to the other gates when he already has this one?

Because the rift is useless to him. He needs a functioning Gate to control the Snarl. This is the entire foundation for why characters have destroyed Gates in order to keep them out of Xykon's hands. If an un-Gated rift had any value to Redcloak and Xykon, they would have stayed in the Redmountain Hills and used the one there after Elan blew up the castle.

[kierthos]

Yeah, I'm betting that Redcloak is going to start shotputting humans into the Rift in order to get O-Chul to talk. Or just to be evil. Either way, humans into the Rift is probably a foregone conclusion. It's only the method that is of question? (Telekinesis spell? Catapult? Elemental used to toss them in?)

The problem is, does O-Chul know anything about the other gates? I mean, he was part of the Sapphire Guard, so he was forbidden from checking up on the other gates. He might know the general location of the other gates, but that's probably about it above and beyond anything that the bad guys already know.

And we already know which gate is next anyway, thanks to the Oracle. Gerard's Gate, and it's protected by layers of illusions. So unless Gerard got into epic levels, how is any of that going to be useful against a True Seeing spell?

Unless I'm missing something here....

[Avilan the Grey]

I wonder what this is about. Did the twelve gods decide that giving Redcloak a gate would be better than having him going around and getting them all destroyed? Is Redcloak lying?

My first impression from the strip was that the rift was an illusion. Why would Redcloak need to get to the other gates when he already has this one?

Also, the rift looks pretty far from the tower. I think the people on the other tower are just observers.

If you have read this comic from the start you should remember the Snarl, right? And the creation of it, by accident, by ALL the gods, plus the more direct hand / paw in the capturing of the Snarl by creating the OOTS world as we know it now.

As for the others... Looks like Hobgoblins to me, they look too orange to be humans, and the city should be full of them.

[SPoD]

And we already know which gate is next anyway, thanks to the Oracle. Gerard's Gate, and it's protected by layers of illusions. So unless Gerard got into epic levels, how is any of that going to be useful against a True Seeing spell?

He almost certainly DID get into epic levels. Dorukan and Soon did.

And story-wise, it would be stupid of Rich to introduce a Gate protected by illusions and NOT have some reason why Redcloak can't just cast a 5th level spell and walk through. I mean, seriously, give him some credit.

[theinsulabot]

He almost certainly DID get into epic levels. Dorukan and Soon did.

And story-wise, it would be stupid of Rich to introduce a Gate protected by illusions and NOT have some reason why Redcloak can't just cast a 5th level spell and walk through. I mean, seriously, give him some credit.

actually i have a personal bet with myself going that some of the illusions will actually be nessasry to find the gate at all, and furthermore, i wouldnt put it past girard to set up his own little gate detonator keyed to go off if at any point somebody in his dungeon fathoms the nature of every illusion.

think about it. the two we saw so far had a major ace up there sleeves. durokon had enchanted his so that only a good aligned character, acting of his own free will, could open the gate. soon set his in a cloistered spot and then hired on an army of good aligned pally ghosts and waited for some dumb lich to come flying in.

the order of the rift may be retired, but there hands are still in this pie, and it will be interesting to find out what surprises he has in store for team evil.

i think people kind of underestimate the order of the rift actually. hell, i wouldn't be surprised in the least if whatever monster was hanging out at the end of the monster dungeon wasn't enough to take down the MitD and look good doing it

[Kilarny]

There's nothing like having the fabric of the universe unravelling in the background. Excellent backdrop for the story.

I...I drew stick figure portraits for all the PCs in my current D&D campaign.:smallredface:

Edit: And clearly, O,Chul said 'ken' to set up the Malibu Dream House Barbie doll joke, which I must say was :biggrin:

[TheAlmightyGuru]

I love the comic, and I love where it's going. Red cloak continues to be my favorite villain.

I noticed a typo in the comic; the common mistake of making plural "savings" in Daylight saving time.

[HOLEkevin]

This was a good strip. A tiny bit of exposition wrapped up in some great characterization-carrying conversation, funny because of it's snarky, but entirely plausible point of view. Much better than the last one, which was more like a bunch of jokes strung together.

Viva la OotS!

[Scribble]

Finally a close up of the rift!

I wonder why all those goblins(?) are over on the other turret...

Anyway this was a nice unintentional birthday gift. Thanks Rich!

[TheCountAlucard]

Wow, awesome!

[JasonDoomsblade]

Wow. I bet Miko is kicking herself.

[Calemyr]

This is actually a good tactic for Redcloak to adopt, if you ask me. O'Chul has taken the tortures, both official and unofficial, and just gotten more badass each time. Threatening a paladin's life and body is useless. Threatening his soul, however... is still inefficient, as paladins are more inclined to that sort of self-sacrifice than other people. Threatening to destroy another person's soul... now... that will break a well-played paladin any day.

That said, however, I think Redcloak honestly believes that the probability of getting killed if Team Evil succeeds is an absolute mercy compared to what happens if the snarl gets out. It also makes a great leadup to the threat of chucking prisoners into the rift:

O'Chul: Safe? It would be naught but the safety of the grave!
Redcloak: Yes! Exactly! Wow, it is refreshing for us to finally be on the same page here.
Redcloak: Because, even if we DID slaughter you wholesale, you would still exist in some form. The thing in that Rift, however? If it kills you, you will cease to be. Gone. No heaven, no hell, nothing. Like this. (Motions, and a prisoner is chucked into the rift.) Now I suggest you tell me what I want to know, because I have all day and an awful lot of prisoners at my disposal.

One thing I'm rather interested in is about the Order of the Rift. With the destruction of the Azure gate, Soon is heading to LG heaven too, right? Maybe Roy can go find him? Also, wasn't Girard a half-elf? If so, he might actually still be alive.

[Blanth]

Yep, Redcloak isn't making any progress.

Destroyers of the gates:
Dorukan's gate: Elan.
An interesting group of people to be weakening the fabric of the universe, methinks.

To be fair, Banjo has forgiven Elan's sin.


I also did like the keen colour in this strip.

...

And wereporcupines.

[Estelindis]

Good strip. The last one was both hilarious and kinda depressing, but this one made me think, and, to a certain extent, fear.

My main fear concerns what looks to be a lot of humans on the far tower. Either they're actually hobgoblins who look bleached because of the colour effect from the rift - orange fades to a human hue - or they really are humans, in which case Redcloak may intend to start sacrificing their very essences, so that their souls are utterly and fundamentally destroyed. :smallfrown: That's such a horrific fate that one of my main story arcs in my most successful tabletop campaign hinged around a desperate attempt to save a single NPC from having his soul destroyed. I just find the very concept appalling.
It looks like Redcloak might have actually come up with a tactic that could reach O-Chul. But I still don't think that O-Chul knows anything that could help Redcloak, so whatever stunt Redcloak's going to pull is probably going to be for nothing. :smallfrown: Considering that there may be souls at stake here, I find that extremely sad.

[Porthos]

I don't quite get Redcloak's closing comment. Is he saying he wants all humans to be killed?

I suspect he is saying that it's better to die under Goblin Rule than to have your soul destroyed by The Snarl...

.... As he is about to demonstrate by throwing people into the Rift.

So, no he doesn't want all of Humanity destroyed. But the line was to good not to use as an Object Lesson.

Anway, in either case it looks like Biege City for Mr. O-Chul. Unless he can think outside of the box.

[Kd7sov]

I noticed a typo in the comic; the common mistake of making plural "savings" in Daylight saving time.


daylight saving time
Function: noun
Date: 1919
: time usually one hour ahead of standard time —called also daylight saving, daylight savings, daylight savings time, daylight time

Seems to me that's saying it's a valid alternate use, rather than a typo.

[Darkhands]

Note that in the big panel, there is a tower with a bunch of figures on it on the other side of the rift. My money says that next strip, Redcloak threatens to throw a human into the rift for every time O-Chul lies to him.

The rift is estimated to grow 100 more feet. They won't need to throw them in, the rift will slowly edge closer and consume them (and O'Chul as well, by the looks of it) if he doesn't give up any information. He'd gladly give himself up, but all those people on the other tower make it much more difficult for him.

Plus the slowly encroaching rift makes it much more suspenseful and tortuous (Is that a word? It is now!) than simply chucking them in.

[dish]

This strip is just so dark. It reminds me of SoD - but then it would, since Redcloak's story throughout SoD is heartbreakingly sad, and horrendously dark.

I think all the posts previous to this have pretty much figured out what's going on, what Redcloak is willing to risk, and what he seems most likely to do next...

There's not much new for me to say, so I'll just have to repeat what others have said: the artwork, the colouration, the fabric of reality unravelling before our eyes...wow.

[Trizap]

Yep, Redcloak isn't making any progress.

Destroyers of the gates:
Lirian's gate:Redcloak.
Dorukan's gate: Elan.
Soon's gate: Miko.

An interesting group of people to be weakening the fabric of the universe, methinks.

aaaaaaannndd....who will be the one to destroy Gerrards gate? *drumroll.....*

Nale!

come one think about it, it just has that poetry about it, one gate was destroyed by Redcloak, the other gate was destroyed by Miko his enemy, Dorukans Gate was destroyed by Elan so Gerrards Gate must be accidentally destroyed by Nale! no wait, Thog, that makes more sense.

[factotum]

The rift is estimated to grow 100 more feet. They won't need to throw them in, the rift will slowly edge closer and consume them (and O'Chul as well, by the looks of it) if he doesn't give up any information.

It's taken more than three months for the rift to grow to its current size, and Redcloak said its rate of growth was slowing. Therefore it must be advancing at a rate of maybe a few inches a day...it will take weeks before anyone on the tower or the wall are absorbed. Far quicker to just start chucking prisoners in while O-Chul watches.

[dragongirl13]

LOL XD

Redcloak kills me. "It's refreshing to know we're on the same page here!" Priceless.

[Aerysil]

Ominous coloring.

[Darkhands]

It's taken more than three months for the rift to grow to its current size, and Redcloak said its rate of growth was slowing. Therefore it must be advancing at a rate of maybe a few inches a day...it will take weeks before anyone on the tower or the wall are absorbed. Far quicker to just start chucking prisoners in while O-Chul watches.

Ah ha, you're right. But there is another torture opportunity using the proximity of the rift...

Remember what happened to Soon's wife Mijung in strip 275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and Kraagor in 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276html)? :smalleek: :smalleek: Lirian also discovered the rifts while investigating wildlife disappearances in the area.

It seems the snarl can reach out through the rifts... With a rift that large, the humans may be in range...

[mb52]

I'm predicting a Wanda-Jillian relationship forming between Redcloak and Oc'hul. :smalleek:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

It looks like the other tower is a mix of humand and hobgoblins, although the color washout of the rift could be confusing the picture.

But is it a good idea for Redcloak to start tossing people through the rift? Sort of like chumming for sharks... Didn't work out all that well for Captain Quint. :smallwink:

[Lizard Lord]

I don't think whatever is guarding the gate is going to matter for Redcloak or the Oots.

If the Linear Guild has not captured the next gate by now they are even worse villains then I thought.

Granted, figuring out how to use the next gate may be a whole 'nother story for them.

[Twilight Jack]

Upon a detailed examination of the distant tower, I'm making out two seperate types of folks standing up there. The first group is wearing grey clothing (read: armor) and is of a medium-tan cast to their skin, which is indicative of orange washed out by lavender light. The second group is in much lighter beige clothing (like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html)), and skin that's quite a few shades lighter. Now, purple light tends to desaturate, so it's not surprising that orange trends towards tan a lot more than caucasian flesh color trends purple.

That, along with Redcloak's last line in this comic, definitely seems to suggest that human prisoners have been gathered together for Snarl feeding. O'Chul has proven that he can stoically accept any indignity or torture visited upon his person (I imagine him sounding bored when remarking, "Blindfold? Water? Is it Thursday already?"), so Redcloak is upping the ante.

Additionally, by pointing out that the destruction of the soul of everyone in the world at the hands of an escaped Snarl is actually worse than anything Redcloak and Xykon might have planned, he's setting O'Chul up to rationalize giving up information to save these innocents from that same fate. Otherwise, a goodass like O'Chul may decide that the deaths of these innocents, while terrible, must not be allowed to blackmail him into giving up the entire world.

Of course, the most likely scenario is that O'Chul really doesn't know anything, and will be forced to watch as innocent Azurites are obliterated one after another, while he tries desperately to convince Redcloak of his ignorance. After having seen O'Chul shrug off such incredible amounts of physical punishment, it will be quite jarring to see him break so utterly in the face of the suffering of others.

[silvadel]

I find it interesting that everyone thinks what redcloak told ochul is the whole truth. At least half of it is likely to be a lie -- He is talking to the ENEMY here and his main purpose is information by whatever means necessary.

[Estelindis]

by pointing out that the destruction of the soul of everyone in the world at the hands of an escaped Snarl is actually worse than anything Redcloak and Xykon might have planned, he's setting O'Chul up to rationalize giving up information to save these innocents from that same fate.
Indeed. Yet something about all this continues to bother me. Dead humans may be better off in a world in which the Snarl is controlled, yet not free. But, unless Redcloak wants to obliterate all other peoples utterly, living humans (or elves, or dwarves, etc) won't be. Look at Miko. She doesn't seem to have had a happy formation as a person, and due to the mistakes she made as a result I really doubt that she will end up in Celestia. When I think of what it would be like to exist in a world dominated by Xykon, that seems like a thousand times worse than anything from Miko's childhood. Would many people end up in different afterlives as a result of being so hopeless and unhappy that they do terrible things just because they can't see any other way, or no longer have any context of what goodness truly means?

I realise the flaws in what I've just said. I'm familiar with a wide range of very sensible and persuasive arguments going against the overall thrust of my previous paragraph. But I still can't quite get over the feeling that, even though our mettle as people is proven by adversity, and courage can only be shown in times of trouble, an awful lot of people who would otherwise be rather blameless can be pushed over the edge by trying circumstances...

Ack. This is all so depressing... Great comic, to have me so caught up in the drama...

[Gamerlord]

Maybe it's just me, but Redcloak is starting to give off the vibe of being more than a little insane. His comment in the last panel is a bit too enthusiastic.

- Saph
redcloak is not insane the paladins are just all CE and so is evryone who is not a goblin for killing them senselessy

[Vectner]

He's tied to a stake, I get it. I also like the Barbie reference. Good info and great character development.

[Stallogarro]

Looks like Redcloak is trying to convince O-Chul that helping them take over the next gate is the lesser of two evils.

How will that work with a paladin? I mean, being Lawful Good: Choose the lesser evil (good) or obey his strict peronal code and oath of loyalty (Law)?

I know, a Deus ex Machina will probably resolve the issue (probably the Vengeance of Banjo), but what would a paladin do?

[orrion]

Stupid question(s) time. And one of them may have been addressed in Start of Darkness, but since I haven't read that yet, I'll ask anyway.

Wasn't the rift above Azure City was the smallest rift (hence the single gemstone to seal it)? That looks pretty freaking large to me. Destroying the gemstone might have enlarged it, I suppose, which leads me to the second question.

What about the rifts at Lirian's Gate and Dorukan's Gate? They were supposed to be larger, and indeed Dorukan's gate was freaking huge, and THAT explosion didn't blow up just a castle, it blew up a DUNGEON. If the scale is the same here, that rift could be enormous by now.

[Forum Explorer]

I can't wait for the next comic.

For a random thought when I saw the people on the other tower the first thought that came to mind was tourists.

Yes, tourists taking a break from being a random encounter to come see the rift that may be the doom of the world.

[RubberBandMan]

Get fallen I'd bet. O-chul strikes me as a pragmatic sort. He says its a shame that Miko fell, because she was the best fighter. He had, for years, been the right hand man of Shojo, which had him doing things that weren't purely lawful, and he knew it, like when he had to put Nale and His gang in jail without a trial.

I'm thinking he lies more in the "Good" school of thought then the "Lawful", if forced, I'd think he'd do the right thing.

Granted, the right thing is most likely going to be the lesser of two evils. Thats the kind of choices you make when the people out to get you control everything going on at the moment.

[Eric]

by pointing out that the destruction of the soul of everyone in the world at the hands of an escaped Snarl is actually worse than anything Redcloak and Xykon might have planned, he's setting O'Chul up to rationalize giving up information to save these innocents from that same fate.

Never really understood this. If there really were an existence where good and evil really had a separable and absolute reality, this wouldn't work. Our world has a little less certainty to it.

But the basic rebuttal is that O'Chul is not killing these humans by remaining stubborn. He is not responsible for the actions of others and is not responsible for the deaths thereof.

O'Chul isn't killing them, Redcloak is.

To him, the deaths are a tragedy, but he isn't killing them and should resist being given that burden.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I ran the numbers on the title, and it was a bit of a long shot. Still, I don't mind going all in on a risky pun.

[PhallicWarrior]

This is emphatically NOT a good thing.

By the way, is Redcloak all faded-looking because of the rift, or am I going to have to get a new monitor?

[shakes019]

Based on the title, I was actually expecting that Tsukiko had animated a vampire for O-Chul to fight.


I find it interesting that everyone thinks what redcloak told ochul is the whole truth. At least half of it is likely to be a lie -- He is talking to the ENEMY here and his main purpose is information by whatever means necessary.
The best part is that as far as we can tell, he's actually telling the truth.

I mean, we have no way of verifying that the rate of growth is reducing, but other than that, it gibes with what we already know.

[Estelindis]

Actually, something just occurred to me. Why did Redcloak bother healing O-Chul if the interrogation is going to be purely verbal / moral / intellectual? :smallconfused: He could have saved that Heal spell after all...

Not that I don't want O-Chul to be healed or anything. :smallfrown: It's just that Redcloak makes a point of managing his resources with an amount of efficiency...

[Glome]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure why Redcloak is doing things the hard way. They have a rift already, do they really need to find another one? What they really need is a gate. And if the universe is doomed anyway if the rifts aren't repaired, wouldn't it more productive to just repair the current rifts with new gates and use them to conquer the world?

Sure it may take more research, but if it's something they have to do eventually anyway, why not do it now and kill two birds with one stone? It's not like they don't have the magical resources. We are talking about an epic level lich and the high priest of the Dark One with the resources of an entire conquered nation state behind them. Plus they are in an ideal defensive position right now, so it's not like anyone is actually in a real position to stop them.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like a dumb idea to actually go chasing the next gate when they would be better off just figuring out how to build a new gate.

[MeTheGameGuy]

If the "smallest breach" is that HUGE, why wasn't Dorukan's breach even detected, given it was the biggest one??? The OotS would have noticed a great swirling rift that blocks out the sky during the comics where they were standing outside, right? Unless, of course, Dorukan's Gate was explosion-proof, and wasn't ACTUALLY destroyed...

[Kd7sov]

Ah ha, you're right. But there is another torture opportunity using the proximity of the rift...

Remember what happened to Soon's wife Mijung in strip 275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and Kraagor in 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276html)? :smalleek: :smalleek: Lirian also discovered the rifts while investigating wildlife disappearances in the area.

It seems the snarl can reach out through the rifts... With a rift that large, the humans may be in range...

Perhaps. However, we don't know how much the Sapphire Guard knows about the rifts, so we don't know whether O-Chul knows about the Snarl and its capabilities. Having not read SoD, I don't know whether Redcloak knows either. It doesn't seem like solid enough information to base a torture stratagem on, since even if Redcloak knows, he probably doesn't know for certain that O-Chul knows.

On the other hand, it's probably not beyond Redcloak to try it despite the possibility of a "huh?".

[Glome]

Actually, something just occurred to me. Why did Redcloak bother healing O-Chul if the interrogation is going to be purely verbal / moral / intellectual? :smallconfused: He could have saved that Heal spell after all...

Not that I don't want O-Chul to be healed or anything. :smallfrown: It's just that Redcloak makes a point of managing his resources with an amount of efficiency...

Do you really want to chance leaving a critically important asset near death with a bored lich around? At least when he's fully healed he has a good chance to survive Xykon's death traps. In his current state he'd be killed by a magic missile though. Better to heal him to reduce the risk of him getting killed later.

[Estelindis]

Do you really want to chance leaving a critically important asset near death with a bored lich around? At least when he's fully healed he has a good chance to survive Xykon's death traps. In his current state he'd be killed by a magic missile though. Better to heal him to reduce the risk of him getting killed later.
Good point and well said! If only all questions on this forum were so easily answered. :smallwink:

[Morgan Wick]

It never occurred to me the strange light in the sky was the rift. I assumed it was the Cloister.

Evidently people who are only now making this realization haven't read (or at least thought about) Haley's "rift" references in past strips or debates on the forum about same.


It's not a "naive theory", it's pretty much exactly what is spelled out as his plan in Start of Darkness. I don't think anyone ever claimed that he wasn't willing to break a few eggs to make that particular omelet, though.

Haven't we had forum debates suggesting either Redcloak or the Dark One may not be entirely honest on that score? Having not read SoD...

And every time you completely mangle and misinterpret what someone is saying and object to it, when actually reading it would have made so much difference, I kill a kitten. Seriously, I literally threw my chair after reading factotum's reply to this, and the reply to that.


My first impression from the strip was that the rift was an illusion. Why would Redcloak need to get to the other gates when he already has this one?
SoD would have more info, but I suspect he needs the gate to help control the Snarl as opposed to merely unleashing Armageddon.


I noticed a typo in the comic; the common mistake of making plural "savings" in Daylight saving time.

In language, "common mistake" is an oxymoron. If it's common, almost by definition, it's correct. Unless you're one of those people who want to kill the English language by saying everything MUST be a certain way.


One thing I'm rather interested in is about the Order of the Rift. With the destruction of the Azure gate, Soon is heading to LG heaven too, right? Maybe Roy can go find him? Also, wasn't Girard a half-elf? If so, he might actually still be alive.
I've been wondering what the chances were that the OOTS would encounter an original member of the Order of the Rift/Scribble...


You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure why Redcloak is doing things the hard way. They have a rift already, do they really need to find another one? What they really need is a gate. And if the universe is doomed anyway if the rifts aren't repaired, wouldn't it more productive to just repair the current rifts with new gates and use them to conquer the world?

Sure it may take more research, but if it's something they have to do eventually anyway, why not do it now and kill two birds with one stone? It's not like they don't have the magical resources. We are talking about an epic level lich and the high priest of the Dark One with the resources of an entire conquered nation state behind them. Plus they are in an ideal defensive position right now, so it's not like anyone is actually in a real position to stop them.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like a dumb idea to actually go chasing the next gate when they would be better off just figuring out how to build a new gate.
It's possible it takes time to weave a new gate...


If the "smallest breach" is that HUGE, why wasn't Dorukan's breach even detected, given it was the biggest one??? The OotS would have noticed a great swirling rift that blocks out the sky during the comics where they were standing outside, right? Unless, of course, Dorukan's Gate was explosion-proof, and wasn't ACTUALLY destroyed...
Well, this rift has explicitly had a while to grow.


Perhaps. However, we don't know how much the Sapphire Guard knows about the rifts, so we don't know whether O-Chul knows about the Snarl and its capabilities. Having not read SoD, I don't know whether Redcloak knows either. It doesn't seem like solid enough information to base a torture stratagem on, since even if Redcloak knows, he probably doesn't know for certain that O-Chul knows.

On the other hand, it's probably not beyond Redcloak to try it despite the possibility of a "huh?".
Well, this strip strongly indicates that Redcloak does know regardless of the implications of SoD, and seems to imply that O-Chul at least knows some measure of the stakes. And other posters who have looked at the tower would probably suggest Redcloak doesn't need O-Chul to know, since he can let him know just enough...


Do you really want to chance leaving a critically important asset near death with a bored lich around? At least when he's fully healed he has a good chance to survive Xykon's death traps. In his current state he'd be killed by a magic missile though. Better to heal him to reduce the risk of him getting killed later.
And remember, the verdict was "Alive, with negative hit points" - which by rule, means his hit points are just going to decay until they hit -10. I wonder if whatever Redcloak is trying is actually a makeshift change in plans following Xykon's round of abuse...

[SolkaTruesilver]

Wait.. I want to know something. If A.C.'s rift was the smallest, and after seeing how much it expanded..

How big has becomed the original rift? (The one at the ex-dungeon of Durokan)

[Kish]

It never occurred to me the strange light in the sky was the rift. I assumed it was the Cloister.
That strikes me as an odd assumption, in light of the marked lack of pink-purple sky over the Dungeon of Dorukan.


Yeah, I'm betting that Redcloak is going to start shotputting humans into the Rift in order to get O-Chul to talk. Or just to be evil. Either way, humans into the Rift is probably a foregone conclusion.
Hm. Strange, considering that Redcloak knows how the Snarl's been known to react to living creatures entering its prison.


And remember, the verdict was "Alive, with negative hit points" - which by rule, means his hit points are just going to decay until they hit -10.
...or until he stabilizes. Which he has a 10% chance of doing per round, or does automatically if he receives any magical healing. Like, for example, a Cure Minor Wounds from a certain goblin cleric in the previous strip.

[Estelindis]

...or until he stabilizes. Which he has a 10% chance of doing per round, or does automatically if he receives any magical healing. Like, for example, a Cure Minor Wounds from a certain goblin cleric in the previous strip.
Yep. He would have stabilised almost inevitably, since he's at a high enough level and with a good enough Con to survive the acid, the spikes, and the sharks. I mean, it's only a DC 15 fort save...

[Calinero]

It is apparent that something will need to be done about the rifts. I think that, as unpleasant as the idea of a world dominated by Xykon is, it is preferable to no world at all. Overlords can be overthrown. Worlds can't be rebuilt--at least, not by mortals.

I admire O-Chul's tenacity in not revealing information under torture, but come on. Someone needs to seal up the rift. If I were Redcloak, that would be my priority. Once there's a gate there, it can be controlled. Besides, you can't rule a destroyed world.

[RMS Oceanic]

Wait.. I want to know something. If A.C.'s rift was the smallest, and after seeing how much it expanded..

How big has becomed the original rift? (The one at the ex-dungeon of Durokan)

We have no idea. Personally I suspect not much bigger at all. Soon's Gate was shattered violently in a way it wasn't supposed to, which allowed rapid destabilisation. Dorukan's Gate was destroyed by a self-destruct system Dorukan designed, so I imagine he designed it to inflict minimum damage on the rift itself, allowing the job of sealing it to be carried out much easier.

[David Argall]

Wait.. I want to know something. If A.C.'s rift was the smallest, and after seeing how much it expanded..

How big has becomed the original rift? (The one at the ex-dungeon of Durokan)

It is likely the same size it was before.

SoD When this gate is destroyed, the rift does not expand. There is the argument it didn't have time to, but the current case suggests any expansion is rapid, and then slows down. So it seems unlikely it has expanded much at all.

The explosion in the dungeon was a planned one. That means the stress on the rift could be quite low, and cause no expansion to speak of.
The Azure City Gate was not built to be "taken down", and so it presumably released a lot of energy when destroyed in an unplanned way.



Upon a detailed examination of the distant tower, I'm making out two seperate types of folks standing up there.
That, along with Redcloak's last line in this comic, definitely seems to suggest that human prisoners have been gathered together for Snarl feeding.
Probably not. The 2nd color is likely some sort of undead.

For proper Snarl feeding, you want the humans as close to the paladin as possible, where he can look them in the eye, and must refuse to save them when he could with a word [or rather could if he actually knew the word]. Stick figures on a distant tower just don't have the same impact on O-Chul and that impact has to be maximized.

O-Chul should ignore the feeding in any case. You give into a threat like that, you give in effectively all the way to Blackguard. Any time Redcloak wants O'Chul to do something, he just makes the same threat. And he will until O'Chul defies him, a number of evil deeds later.



I don't agree. In his plan in Start of Darkness:

Redcloak explicitly states that all he wants is an equal chance for goblinkind, and that if they get that chance and STILL don't make good, they deserve everything they get.

Nothing there about wanting goblins to be the dominant race, although Redcloak IS willing to see the world destroyed to bring about his "equality"...


I agree with you, I was disputing jamroar's assertion that anyone who said that Redcloak's god only wanted equality was putting forth a "naive theory".

But it is a naive theory. That or a lie of some degree.

The practical definition of equality is "more for me". Any idea of some sort of real equality is very secondary, and the standard of equality shifts according to what gives the advantage.

If we assume the honesty of those talking about equality, we find very vague ideas of what equality is. Something does not appeal to them, so it must be unfair. There is no rigorous analysis of what equality should mean. Rather there is a hunt for excuses for what they want to have happen.

Notice the situation in Azure City now. Not some sort of equality where the humanoids are allowed to enter and leave without problems. Instead the humans are now slaves and the hobgoblins are the masters, who love using the whips.

The hobgoblins and other such races are not innocent victims of discrimination. They are evil, and proud of being so. Their idea of inequality is that you still have some goods they can steal from you.

The basic fact is that these humanoids are not poor because of human aggression. Rather they are attacking the humans and robbing them. They are poor because crime actually doesn't pay [unless you have a lot of victims to rob]. An evil society robs itself and goes broke.

[Bitzeralisis]

I don't get it. Must reread.

[Callista]

How will that work with a paladin? I mean, being Lawful Good: Choose the lesser evil (good) or obey his strict peronal code and oath of loyalty (Law)?

I know, a Deus ex Machina will probably resolve the issue (probably the Vengeance of Banjo), but what would a paladin do?It depends on the individual paladin. All paladins would of course try to find a third option that involves neither choice; but when forced to it, they make individual choices. The choice, of course, is forced: Make one choice, and an evil person does one evil thing; make another, and you enable another evil thing further down the road. It's a rather classic dilemma that existed long before D&D, and people have always answered it in different ways.

Utilitarianism would say: Sacrifice a small number of people so that a greater number can be saved. It's a very Lawful philosophy, but it also goes against a Good person's gut feeling that says "value every individual life". Trouble is, what about the individual members of the larger group?

There's the possibility of saving that small number, then in the future saving the larger number too. That's a third-choice scenario, of course.

In either case, O'Chul cannot be blamed for Redcloak's choices. He wouldn't be committing an evil act, either way, because he isn't doing this by his free will. Redcloak can't make him fall--but he can certainly cause a lot of mental anguish that way. I am rather surprised he hasn't tried it before.

I don't see the importance of action vs. inaction in one of these scenarios... Inaction is a choice, too; you can't help but choose, and it doesn't absolve you if you choose by inaction. The forced choice makes it involuntary, which means you can't make a paladin fall that way. The only real way to use scenarios like this is actually to use it to cause him to doubt himself and his connection to his deity, so that he willingly gives it up.

Also, if there were a DM running this scenario, and the player were anything other than a very experienced role-player willing to have his character messed with like that... I would be getting out the hammer-gun right about now.

[Zeku]

Not sure why people aren't getting it, it was pretty simple and had a lot of good puns in it, especially 'ken.' But, where is the 'waterboarding' reference? I can't find it.

The shading on Redcloak reminds me of fiddling with the color settings on FF2. (snes) That was one of the many surreal experiences in that game, back in the day, seeing the weird effect that a little red+blue would have on innocent, hapless green.

[Remirach]

O-Chul MIGHT have been referencing waterboarding when he spoke of the blindfold and water. But there are actually quite a few tortures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_torture) that involve water and I do not believe that waterboarding would work when the victim was upright as O-Chul is. Nor does it require a blindfold, for that matter.

[Ellen]

The Goblinoids (going by their own mythology which may not be 100% accurate) is that they were created and then given areas where they couldn't survive without getting materials from areas controlled by other races. But the other races responded negatively to the Goblins and also found that they progessed levels when they fought and killed them.

This may leave out a lot. We know that, in the current state of affairs, the Goblins and Hobgoblins are hardly innocent bystanders in Azure City. It's one thing to be reduced to a state in which banditry and raiding may be the only way to survive. It's another to develop philosophies and a culture that perpetuate them and create justifications for them - but being raised in that kind of system is different than being there as it develops.

On the issue of Xykon, it might be better to live ground under his heel than to see the souls of everyone in the world eternally destroyed.

Which is why I'm beginning to wonder if Xykon isn't the kind to destroy the whole world anyway for his own reasons (like entertainment).

[bengator]

Doesn't it seem like the whole thing is setting up (eventually) for some sort of unholy Team Evil-Order alliance? It seems like Team Evil is trying risky things which may spiral out of control. I can see a last minute realization that they cannot control the Snarl without the Order's help and plea to help save the world. Plus, with Xykon being loveable in an evil overlord kind of way, it would seem difficult to kill him off in the strip, even at the end.

On an unrelated note, while I didn't like this particular strip, I thought the shading was very clever and very well done.

[Remirach]

I feel dumb that I just now got Redcloak's last line.

"The safety of the grave..." because if the Good Guys gave in, there'd be a grave and an afterlife safely waiting for them as opposed to what happens if the Gates keep getting destroyed.

[lothofkalroth]

Doesn't it seem like the whole thing is setting up (eventually) for some sort of unholy Team Evil-Order alliance? It seems like Team Evil is trying risky things which may spiral out of control. I can see a last minute realization that they cannot control the Snarl without the Order's help and plea to help save the world. Plus, with Xykon being loveable in an evil overlord kind of way, it would seem difficult to kill him off in the strip, even at the end.

On an unrelated note, while I didn't like this particular strip, I thought the shading was very clever and very well done.

i dunno, if you've read start of darkness, he's really the only character who's pure evil at heart. ('cept maybe belkar :smallamused: )

[the_tick_rules]

redcloak, he should have backed out decades ago. But I guess that's not gonna happen.

[factotum]

This may leave out a lot. We know that, in the current state of affairs, the Goblins and Hobgoblins are hardly innocent bystanders in Azure City. It's one thing to be reduced to a state in which banditry and raiding may be the only way to survive.

Thinking about that some more, I do wonder just how downtrodden the goblinoids are in the first place. The hobgoblins who are currently occupying Azure City had their own city up in the mountains, and I just don't believe that they could sustain a city of more than thirty thousand people simply through raiding other people's stuff; they would have had to have their own food sources at the very least. There are also examples from SoD of goblin villages where they seem to live quite happily:


Including one where the goblin village was right next to a circus run by humans, and able to visit it freely!


On the whole, I think the goblinoids can already live just fine in places where they're not getting raided by adventurers every other week--Redcloak just doesn't see that. He's blinded by the glory of his Plan (and quite probably by his God, too).

[Child Conscript]

I don't know if some ones already mentioned this but if we move our eyes to the 5th panel and then move our eyes to the far right do we see lots of human skinned colored heads? this must be a plot line if anything :smile:

[lord_khaine]

the reason why Redcloak and Xykon cant just make their own gate is among other things that they proberly cant, the gates are made with epic arcane and divine magic, and team evil is missing 1 of those.

[SPoD]

Haven't we had forum debates suggesting either Redcloak or the Dark One may not be entirely honest on that score? Having not read SoD...

I'm sorry I don't keep track of every ridiculous thing that people here debate about. I assumed everyone accepted the fact that because we see the story of the Dark One told to us in crayon drawings, rather than just told in dialogue, that it was conclusively true. If people want to believe that the pictures we see in flashback may not be accurate, then the entire plot about the Snarl could be a gigantic lie, but that strikes me as a waste of time.

At any rate, what people do or do not debate about here has no bearing on the story as I read or interpret it. I simply don't appreciate a theory I subscribe to being dismissed out of hand as "naive" when it is explicitly stated in the book. It's not like fans just pulled it out of their asses, it's what's set down as being what Redcloak himself believes.


And every time you completely mangle and misinterpret what someone is saying and object to it, when actually reading it would have made so much difference, I kill a kitten. Seriously, I literally threw my chair after reading factotum's reply to this, and the reply to that.

I really have no idea what you are talking about, but it gives me great pleasure that I inspired such impotent nerd-rage in you.

[ref]

Not sure why people aren't getting it, it was pretty simple and had a lot of good puns in it, especially 'ken.'

Some people aren't native English speakers. What is ken? (In the sense O-Chul uses)

[factotum]

Some people aren't native English speakers. What is ken? (In the sense O-Chul uses)

"Beyond our ken" is an archaic way of saying "outside our knowledge".

[Kish]

On the whole, I think the goblinoids can already live just fine in places where they're not getting raided by adventurers every other week--Redcloak just doesn't see that. He's blinded by the glory of his Plan (and quite probably by his God, too).
In a D&D-based comic strip with no real fourth wall, there's also a meta-level here. Redcloak can look his race up in the Monster Manual, and see how inferior he was designed to be to all the player races. He can look up hobgoblins and see that they're comparable to a player race, but have a +1 level adjustment which cripples their class development. If he were more like his brother, he might think that his people can build Utopia even with those handicaps, and show the player races and their gods that way, but he'd rather try to force the gods to level the playing field.

[hamishspence]

"Ken" for "know" is still used in Scottish dialect. a little joke is:

"What does "I dinnae ken" mean?"
"I don't know."
"Correct."

(a bit like "Give me two pronouns" "Who, me?" "Correct")