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View Full Version : Can a Mind Flayer eat another Mind Flayer's brain?



MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 06:16 AM
As title. This is important for the backstory of the Mind Flayer Paladin of Freedom// Psychic Warrior I'm doing for a game on this very forum.

So, can they? Any help appreciated!

mostlyharmful
2008-04-04, 06:22 AM
Sure, they wouldn't in a normal city of them as it would tick the elder brain off something fierce but there isn't any reason I can think of that they couldn't eat each others gray gooey deliciousness.

AslanCross
2008-04-04, 06:26 AM
If it's a question of ability, yes. Illithids can certainly eat one another's brains. While Illithid mucus can resist the skull-dissolving enzyme their tentacles secrete, it's not a permanent invulnerability to brain extraction. (See Lords of Madness)

If it's a question of whether they would or not, it's not likely that they would do that even if they're rivals. It's unlikely that the Elder Brain would tolerate such infighting. It could possibly be a punishment, since the ultimate goal of every Illithid is to rejoin the Elder Brain. If one's brain is eaten before then---well, that certainly is an obstacle. Brain extraction is a likely capital punishment for failures.

MelkorsHalo
2008-04-04, 06:28 AM
nothing in the crunch says they can't. i say go for it.

JBento
2008-04-04, 06:28 AM
They CAN, but they generally won't, as it is a big taboo for them. Mind flayers' brains are, after they die, supposed to be thrown into the Elder Brain's pool, so that it may absorb them and "lead them to a higher state of consciousness". This is, however, a load of c**p, as gthe EB just subsumes the mind flayers' identity.
So, thjey are capable of doing it, but it would be the equivalent of a human eating another human's flesh - and EVERYONE KNOWING ABOUT IT (remember, ALL mindlfayers of a city are in constant telepathic communication).

For more information, pick up Lords of Madness, or "The Book Players Should Never Be Allowed Near, EVAH!!!!"

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 07:00 AM
So a rebellious CG Illithid that's basically decided that MF society is a load of excrement might do it? The basic character idea I have is the one-in-a-million CG flayer who realises that the "slave-races" aren't just mindless cattle but are, in fact, sapient (although a lot less intelligent than a Flayer). Train of thought could go like this:

Mind Flayers eat brains of these people. These people are less intelligent than Flayers, but otherwise little different. We eat their brains, flayers aren't all that different, therefore there's nothing wrong with eating the brains of other illithids- at least, nothing more wrong than eating the brain of someone else.

Eeexcellent...

mostlyharmful
2008-04-04, 07:05 AM
It's also about the biggist V-sign he can give Illithid society at large, and if he's a dropout weird CG Flayer this'd be right up his street. Of course it would also attract retribution like flies to S*&t but everything has a down side right?:smallamused:

JBento
2008-04-04, 07:09 AM
OTOH, if said CG Illithgid finds it wrong that they eat other sapient species' brains, woudn't he find it wrong to eat an illithid's brain as well? :smallconfused:

Oh. :smalleek:

Oh, no. :smallfrown:

I've turned this into an alignment thread. It shall now be derailed and grow to several dozen pages in length... :smallyuk:

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 07:11 AM
It's equally wrong. He eats brains when a normal Paladin would hit them with a sword until they stop moving (in this case, when they're evil and opressive- like, pretty much every Mind Flayer).

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-04, 07:19 AM
Illithid society or no, it's essentially cannibalism. I've never seen a paladin anywhere, regardless of alignment, resort to cannibalism unless such a thing was absolutely necessary and they were going to die without food. I'd say that your paladin should probably lay off the illithid brains. Besides, people would see this and probably call him a hypocrite anyway.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 07:21 AM
iT'S CANNIBALISM TO EAT ANY SENTIENT CREATURE'S BRAIN, REALLY... dEPENDS HOW YOU DO IT. i'LL HAVE A TALK TO THE OTHER PLAYERS...

loopy
2008-04-04, 07:23 AM
It's equally wrong. He eats brains when a normal Paladin would hit them with a sword until they stop moving (in this case, when they're evil and opressive- like, pretty much every Mind Flayer).

That adds an entirely new aspect to the quote: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-04, 07:26 AM
iT'S CANNIBALISM TO EAT ANY SENTIENT CREATURE'S BRAIN, REALLY... dEPENDS HOW YOU DO IT. i'LL HAVE A TALK TO THE OTHER PLAYERS...

:smallconfused: Is your caps lock on or are you trying to mimic the act of raising your voice? I can't tell.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 07:28 AM
Sorry, that was caps. No aggression intended.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-04, 07:32 AM
None recieved.:smallwink:

Khanderas
2008-04-04, 08:08 AM
So a rebellious CG Illithid that's basically decided that MF society is a load of excrement might do it? The basic character idea I have is the one-in-a-million CG flayer who realises that the "slave-races" aren't just mindless cattle but are, in fact, sapient (although a lot less intelligent than a Flayer). Train of thought could go like this:

Mind Flayers eat brains of these people. These people are less intelligent than Flayers, but otherwise little different. We eat their brains, flayers aren't all that different, therefore there's nothing wrong with eating the brains of other illithids- at least, nothing more wrong than eating the brain of someone else.

Eeexcellent...
There is also little that differs pig flesh, from human flesh (infact many grafts are possible, such as heart transplant a pig heart into a human. Really. works today, with medication but still) but a pork eater will problebly still have problems eating any piece of a human.

As mentioned, psionically linked illithids would problebly taboo this even more.

Now, PHYSICALLY able to.. yes. But trying to eat an illithids brain will leave you succeptable to a very close range mind blast. Just sayin'.


Going off to eat your own race takes more then "all sentients are equally valid", it would take actual crusade and/or insanity. A human may just switch to salad when he considers all animals equal, an illithid don't really have that option (ring of sustainence would work though).

Adumbration
2008-04-04, 08:30 AM
There's a description in the Underdark book of an illithid community that lost it's Elder Brain, and his business is - devouring the brains of dead illithids - taken over by a group of illithidliches. Meh, life goes on.

its_all_ogre
2008-04-04, 08:42 AM
the grapple rules would make this extremely hazardous at best, assuming equal stats you'd have a 50/50 chance of being eaten yourself!
maybe he ate their brains then turned paladin and realised this was just as wrong?
i agree ethically cannibalism is wrong....:smallyuk:

Skaven
2008-04-04, 08:47 AM
If the illithid finds out about the elder brains secret, i dont see why not.

Worira
2008-04-04, 09:13 AM
No. A mindflayer's entire body is a brain, with the exception of the contents of its skull.

JBento
2008-04-04, 09:20 AM
And in Soviet Underdark, the Mind flays YOU:smallcool:

BlackStaticWolf
2008-04-04, 10:19 AM
iT'S CANNIBALISM TO EAT ANY SENTIENT CREATURE'S BRAIN, REALLY... dEPENDS HOW YOU DO IT. i'LL HAVE A TALK TO THE OTHER PLAYERS...

Technically, it's only cannibalism to eat (parts of) members of your own species. Of course, regardless of that little semantics argument, I think that it's pretty clear that cannibalism is pretty much always going to be an evil act.

I think that a CG illithid would need a really good reason to eat another illithid's brain. Illithids eat the brains of other creatures because they're tastey and belong to species that they view as lesser beings. In other words, they view most non-illithids as barely sentient and only worthy of being slaves or food.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 10:19 AM
the grapple rules would make this extremely hazardous at best, assuming equal stats you'd have a 50/50 chance of being eaten yourself!

Not the build I've got goin'! Gloves of the Titan's Grip, Expansion and Improved Grapple all feature (Gestalt, you see)...

"Actual crusade"? If by that you mean "Is totally dedicated to destroying the mind flayer civilisation and all beings who are in control of it," definitely.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-04, 10:40 AM
So a rebellious CG Illithid that's basically decided that MF society is a load of excrement might do it? The basic character idea I have is the one-in-a-million CG flayer who realises that the "slave-races" aren't just mindless cattle but are, in fact, sapient (although a lot less intelligent than a Flayer). Train of thought could go like this:

Mind Flayers eat brains of these people. These people are less intelligent than Flayers, but otherwise little different. We eat their brains, flayers aren't all that different, therefore there's nothing wrong with eating the brains of other illithids- at least, nothing more wrong than eating the brain of someone else.

Eeexcellent...

Of course when he's thinking that everyone else can hear him! So, immediately the elder brain overloads the rebel's brain with a psionic blast. So, while physically possible, it will never happen. Even if the illithid went out of telepathic range, when he goes to actually commit the act everyone will know what he plans on doing and same outcome. So in reality it is impossible.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 11:00 AM
You can decide not to telepathise and Detect Thoughts has a fairly low save DC (Illithids have awesome Will), so if you jumped one "ordinary" isolated Flayer you might get away with it, no?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-04, 11:06 AM
And get a level up. You simply will not get the chance to eat brains if your DM knows the effects, because a flayer eating another flayer's brain grants him/her/it the powers of the eaten flayer, thus making them stronger. Which either means a level up or ann ability increase.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-04-04, 11:12 AM
One of the main reasons mind flayers eat brains is that they are the only food that restores their psionic abilities and keeps their minds loaded with power. Illithids eat normal 'food' as well (pretty much nasty organic paste) on a day to day basis to keep the normal parts of their metabolism working. Brains are a rarity; and important and vital part of their diet, but rare.

The question I've always wondered is: would eating another mind flayer's brain give them any of this special psionic sustenance? There's two possibilities here (perhaps more).
1. Since Illithids are incapable of creating psychic sustenance on their own, perhaps their brains lack this restoring, rejuvenating quality of other creatures' brains. In this case, eating another mind flayer's brain does the cannibalistic Illithid little good. Perhaps it's not even tasty, and an Illithid that ate only other mind flayers' brains would quickly starve.
2. Since Illithids are so naturally potently psionic, perhaps eating a mind flayer's brain is super nutritious, giving the cannibalistic mind flayer several months' worth of psychic sustenance. In this case, cannibalism is a path to power that is taboo, but also quite attractive to the particularly depraved or deviant. I could see a cool prestige class for mind flayers branching from such a concept, or even applying the 'Illithid Savant' class to this purpose. Plus, the picture of the Mind Flayer of Thoon in the MMV holding a dead illithid with suspicious holes in its head has made me wonder if the Thoonites enjoyed snacking on non-Thoon flayers...

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 11:14 AM
I think that a CG illithid would need a really good reason to eat another illithid's brain. Illithids eat the brains of other creatures because they're tastey and belong to species that they view as lesser beings. In other words, they view most non-illithids as barely sentient and only worthy of being slaves or food.

Quick, easy, relatively simple way to neutralise them?


And get a level up. You simply will not get the chance to eat brains if your DM knows the effects, because a flayer eating another flayer's brain grants him/her/it the powers of the eaten flayer, thus making them stronger. Which either means a level up or ann ability increase.

Where's this from? I know the Illithid Savant class does something like that, but WOW.

I'd be perfectly happy to houserule that one out...

SilverClawShift
2008-04-04, 11:46 AM
I think that it's pretty clear that cannibalism is pretty much always going to be an evil act.

I think that a CG illithid would need a really good reason to eat another illithid's brain.

How's this? A mindflayer has to eat the brain of a sentient creature once a month. If it doesn't, it will starve as surely as if you got no real food for an entire month (and that's the bare minimum a mindflayer has to eat, at that).
Having to eat 12 sentient brains a year is a pretty big obstacle to overcome if you're somehow a good mindflayer. You could just hope to always find one villain worthy of death each month, and snack on them.

But if a mindflayer had a chance to get away with eating the brain of another mindflayer, they wouldn't be comitting an inherently evil act. They're sustaining their own life, it's no more evil than a human eating a cheesburger. In fact, they're doing something good in the process, because if they have to eat a sentient brain anyway, they might as well be reducing the numbers of the evil mindflayers.

Remember kiddies, every Illithid you kill is 12 sentient lives a year saved.

AslanCross
2008-04-04, 11:55 AM
No. A mindflayer's entire body is a brain, with the exception of the contents of its skull.

Not exactly. Lords of Madness says that the body is an extended brain due to the nervous system encroaching on all of its tissues. However, the head contains what is closer to an indispensable parasite than a brain. It can't produce its own psychic energy and hormones, which is why Illithids have to eat brains to keep their own psychic energy going.

Dervag
2008-04-04, 11:57 AM
iT'S CANNIBALISM TO EAT ANY SENTIENT CREATURE'S BRAIN, REALLY... dEPENDS HOW YOU DO IT. i'LL HAVE A TALK TO THE OTHER PLAYERS...Would it be cannibalism to eat the brain of a sentient cow? How about a nonsentient cow? How about a whale (which might be sentient- we don't know)?

Also, is it clear that cannibalism is an aligned act? Neither of us may have ever heard of nonevil characters who do it, but does that mean it is an act that would make an otherwise good-aligned being neutral or evil?


That adds an entirely new aspect to the quote: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."Until you eat its brain. Then it's only gazing into you in your dreams.

[wanders away, mumbling crazedly...]


Remember kiddies, every Illithid you kill is 12 sentient lives a year saved.And since illithids are very long lived, that's a lot of years, too.

FlyMolo
2008-04-04, 03:41 PM
The answer is yes, but only rogue flayers can get away with it.

And I would let it give extra super sustenance, too. A couple months of food, plus a +2 to save DC for mind flayer racial abilities for that time. That seems about right.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-04, 08:22 PM
Well, since they eat brains to get certain energies that the body they've taken over don't get, as they don't have their normal brain, I would say it either doesn't work, or it's going to not be as effective.

I don't think it's just a matter of psychic energy, otherwise none of them would likely need to eat brains.

It's an interesting idea mind you.


As far as alignment goes... Killing evil things is often considered acceptable, if not outright good. I don't see how taking advantage of that is going to be more evil than murder.

But, all of those issues are up to the DM.

akumadaimyo
2008-04-04, 08:26 PM
Of course Mind Flayers can eat each other. These people who keep saying "Elder Brain" this and "Elder Brain" that are wrong. They forget that there are more than one Elder Brain out there and they probably don't all get along.

Cannibalism is defined as a evil act in D&D, so yeah a PC who ate people or sentient beings would be pretty darned evil.

SurlySeraph
2008-04-04, 08:37 PM
But if a mindflayer had a chance to get away with eating the brain of another mindflayer, they wouldn't be comitting an inherently evil act. They're sustaining their own life, it's no more evil than a human eating a cheesburger. In fact, they're doing something good in the process, because if they have to eat a sentient brain anyway, they might as well be reducing the numbers of the evil mindflayers.

Remember kiddies, every Illithid you kill is 12 sentient lives a year saved.

I realize that killing evil is generally a good act, but I'm extremely leery of declaring that genocide via cannibalism can ever be a good thing. A cannibalistic mindflayer is not exactly Exalted material.

@V: Killing evil isn't necessarily good. If you want to kill evil to replace it with more evil, that's still evil. (See: the Blood War, orc tribes warring with each other, everything that ever happens in the Underdark).

Cannibalism is morally wrong for a number of reasons. Culturally, it's an offense against purity and is disrespectful to the dead. Practically, it is likely to harm the practitioner - if the person you eat had a health problem, you're likely to catch it, and it may give you an entirely new disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%28disease%29).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-04, 08:40 PM
Killing evil is good. Why is allowing their brain to rot, when you need to eat to survive, somehow more noble?

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-05, 04:25 AM
Just to get the alignment debate even crazier, Mind Flayers have a completely different mindset to normal humans or whatever- even the one-in-a-million CG mind flayer. Humans eating humans is out, but Flayers eating Flayers might be less so.

Subjective or objective is the basic question here, I think...