Redcloak's insanity

[VetMichael]

Obviously, Redcloak has slipped the surly bonds of sanity. Now here comes the question:

Is Redcloak's insanity a product of his Goblin heritage?

OR

Is Redcloak's insanity a product of his youth experiences?


Points to consider:

*IF* his insanity, and resultant desire to see all good aligned bipeds (such as those living in Azure City) enjoying the "safety of the grave" (as he vehemently agrees to when O-Chul mentions it), is the result of his Goblin heritage, was not the Sapphire Guard correct in (almost) wiping out his tribe? What havoc could they have wrought in the name of the Dark One had they been left alone because no outward crime had been detected?

OR

*IF* his insanity, and resultant desire to work for Xykon and 'team evil,' is the result of his ordeal at the hands of the Sapphire Guard, then is his desire for genocide and Armageddon (or Ragnarok, or Doomsday, or whatever they want to call it) merely a manifestation of Karmic justice?

[Admiral_Kelly]

Neither. Redcloak is not insane. What specifically makes him that way?

[Deth Muncher]

Yeah, sorry, he's not crazy. Have you read Start of Darkness? He doesn't have a choice here.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

:redcloak: They all think I'm crazy, but I know better. It is not I who are crazy. It is I who am *mad*! Can't you hear them? Didn't you see the crowd?

[Green Bean]

SoD Spoilers

While Redcloak obviously would prefer not destroying the world, he's willing to risk it happening because if it does, he'd still win. If the world's destroyed, the gods will rebuild it (to recreate the Snarl's prison), except this time the Dark One will be there to ensure that the monster races don't get the short end of the (no pun intended) stick.

[Jayngfet]

listen to h_v here, no matter what happens redcloak wins, the only difference is that if he win wins then he gets to see it happen.

[Kish]

Yeah, sorry, he's not crazy. Have you read Start of Darkness? He doesn't have a choice here.

Like his brother, he does in fact have a choice.

Unlike his brother, he's too chicken**** to ever make it.

[Doug Lampert]

Like his brother, he does in fact have a choice.

Unlike his brother, he's too chicken**** to ever make it.
QFT. Or to be more precise he has made his choice and makes it again every day. And that choice is "justificed" by a belief that it counts as a WIN for goblin-kind if every single goblin that exists is destroyed body and soul because he THINKS that this would result in the hypothetical monster races of a hypothetical future world being treated better. And this also "justifies" the ACTUAL destruction of any and every peaceful and reasonably prosperous group of goblins he finds who might actually, you know, TRY to actually better themselves by something that doesn't involve freeing or threatening to free a soul-destroying abomination.

[Saph]

I don't know if he's all-the-way insane yet, but he seems to be stepping close to the edge. The last panel of today's comic definitely isn't the kind of thing you say unless some of your screws are spinning pretty freely.

- Saph

[RMS Oceanic]

As the others have said, Redcloak sees two options (SoD spoilers):
1. Successfully gain control over the Snarl's gate, Allowing the Dark One to strongarm the other Pantheons into making a better deal for Goblinoids.
2. Unleash the Snarl, which destroys the world. While horrid, the gods will be forced to make a new world, and the Dark One will have to have a say, for it's important the world is created unanimously. Also, it's possible some of the older gods will be killed off, giving the Dark One more influence in the new world.

Of course, there's a third option:
3. Abandon the plan, and build up a Goblin Nation of its own accord. This, to a degree, was what Right-Eye was doing. Of course, Redcloak at this stage will point blank refuse to consider this. If he abandons working with Xykon after all this time, it means he was wrong, and all the (hob)goblins Xykon's nonchalantly killed during their partnership will have died for nothing. Redcloak was even willing to kill his own brother to avoid admitting this, which is also another reason; he will have murdered his baby brother for no good reason if he abandons the plan. Unless some kind of major epiphany happens, this option is nonexistant.

[Charles Phipps]

Redcloak is insane.

It's called being a religious fanatic. It's not exactly a "one or the other" thing. Redcloak believes so strongly in his fake god's teachings that he's going to destroy the world to bring the ideal he wants about. That's entirely irrational despite being justified by his past.

[RMS Oceanic]

There's nothing fake about his god. Like St Cuthbert, he's an Ascended Mortal. His primary objective is control of a gate, but if it comes down to smash it down and start again, so be it says Dark One.

[Moriarty]

:redcloak: They all think I'm crazy, but I know better. It is not I who are crazy. It is I who am *mad*! Can't you hear them? Didn't you see the crowd?



:redcloak:True! ---nervous---very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad? The disease had sharpened my senses --- not destroyed --- not dulled them. Above all was the sense of hearing acute. I heard all things in the heaven and in the earth. I heard many things in hell. How, then, am I mad?



im such a copycat :(

[NENAD]

Redcloak isn't anymore insane then I am; he's willing to gamble everything on an attempt to give goblinoids a lot in life that doesn't involve being brutally murdered left and right so every adventurer and his brother can get to level three.

[TigerHunter]

Redcloak is completely, 100% insane at this point.

Why? He's willing to destroy the entire world in order to better the fate of goblins. Those same goblins who will not only die, but have their souls devoured by a creature born of pure chaos if he succeeds. Those same goblins who will reap no benefit from the destruction of the world--and really, who would?

Now admittedly, Redcloak doesn't want to destroy the world. He wants to rule it, which is hardly less insane. He could achieve his stated goals by, as RMS Oceanic pointed out, building up a peaceful goblin nation. But Redcloak doesn't want peace. He wants war. He has a pathological need to accomplish his goals by the most brutal means possible, in order to punish humans for destroying his village. What he fails to realize, of course, is that 99% of the humans he's punishing had no hand in said village attack, or were even aware that it happened.

Here's why Redcloak is insane: he's a racist. His world is completely black-and-white. Goblins are good. Humans are bad. Period, end of story. The idea that a goblin could do the wrong thing is completely alien to him. The idea that a human could do the right thing is equally alien.

My proof? If Plan B (destroy the world) succeeds, not a single goblin will benefit from Redcloak's actions. In fact, they will be even worse off than they currently are, since anyone killed at this point at least gets eternal happiness in the afterlife. The only people who will benefit from the destruction of the world are the Dark One and the goblins in the new world, who may be completely different than the goblins inhabiting the current world. So why does Redcloak believe that everything he does is justified? Because they're goblins.


TL;DR--Redcloak's stated goal of goblin equality could be accomplished through peaceful means, but Redcloak chooses more violent methods because they involve killing humans, which he believes is always right, regardless of what the individual human may or may not have done. Redcloak is willing to destroy the world at the expense of everyone he has ever known and loved because the goblins in the new world will be better off.




Redcloak isn't anymore insane then I am; he's willing to gamble everything on an attempt to give goblinoids a lot in life that doesn't involve being brutally murdered left and right so every adventurer and his brother can get to level three.
His gambling chips include the very souls of said goblins. No matter how much my life sucks, I'll take a bad life followed by eternal happiness in the afterlife to having my soul eaten, thanks.

[Pronounceable]

RC is a very dedicated individual. His dedication is his prime drive, even more important to him than the focus of it. He's just dedicated to his dedication. Just like Miko was but unlike her, he has a grand dream.

One might call that a sort of madness. But he's not mad. Xykon is mad. At least, that's RC's opinion. Considering Xykon's blatant madness, who's to say he's wrong?

EDIT:

Redcloak's stated goal of goblin equality could be accomplished through peaceful means, but Redcloak chooses more violent methods because they involve killing humans, which he believes is always right, regardless of what the individual human may or may not have done.

Wrong. There's NO way his dream can be accomplished by peaceful means, because there's a whole lot of individuals on both sides who are just as determined as RC to wipe out the other side completely. He's just the one who has a chance to do it at the moment.

[NENAD]

His gambling chips include the very souls of said goblins. No matter how much my life sucks, I'll take a bad life followed by eternal happiness in the afterlife to having my soul eaten, thanks.

Ach, forgotten about that. Okay, Redcloak's a nutcase.

[VetMichael]

I must disagree with assertions that he is not insane. If, as is sometimes asserted, he is doing what he is to ensure that monster types get "a fair shake" then his actions are actually generating the OPPOSITE effect on all "good aligned" creatures and characters.

1) How do we know that such an incident has not been tried by Goblins like Redcloak before and that is the cause of the raid on his village by the Sapphire Guard? If Goblins have a tendency to try to destroy the world everytime they reach a certain, critical mass, it behooves the guardians of good to wipe out the Goblins whenever they encounter them.

2) If the Snarl gets loose, there is no guarantee that Redcloak's precious Dark One won't be a casualty of the ensuing deicide. And if that happens, a re-made world might include Goblins that are even MORE valuable to beginning parties, Goblins might lack the awareness of self necessary to try this all over again, OR there might not even be a Goblin race again...

3) His agreement that all other races (or at least the ones guarding the gates) deserve to be killed (or at least dead) implies he doesn't want a "fair shake" or "equal rights" for Goblins, but supremacy. If allowed to become the dominant species, Goblin PCs would hunt Humans and other humanoids to gain XP, wiping out their villages whenever possible. This, of course, leads to Humans (or elves, or dwarves, etc.) rising up with their own doomsday plans and overthrowing their Goblin overlords, thus begining the cycle all over again.



I'm of course not saying Goblins should be happy with their lot in life, but Redcloak's plans are those of the religious fanatic with messianic or millenial delusions and, therefore, are technically insane.

[Calinero]

I'm not sure I would describe him as insane, just misguided. I mean, it's easy for us to say that we would take a life of suffering--we haven't suffered like the goblins have. It's entirely possible that taking out all of the humans that have oppressed them would seem worth the sacrifice to a goblin. Besides, have we seen any guarantee that goblins get a good afterlife? I'm fairly sure that they go to one of the more hell-like planes when they die. I know I didn't see any in Roy's afterlife, but then again I don't suppose there are many Lawful Good goblins...

[NENAD]

Are the hells really that bad? Or are they just evil heavens like the Abyss from Dragonlance?

Of course it could be argued he isn't crazy if he considers letting the Snarl out not to be an option.

[TigerHunter]

EDIT:


Wrong. There's NO way his dream can be accomplished by peaceful means, because there's a whole lot of individuals on both sides who are just as determined as RC to wipe out the other side completely. He's just the one who has a chance to do it at the moment.
And all he's doing by fighting back is helping validate those opinions, and ending/ruining the lives of people on both sides. The last thousand years of history have fairly conclusively shown that violence actually feeds the flames of racial hatred, rather than extinguish them.

It's a never-ending cycle. I wasn't strong enough in my previous post. Peace is the only way to achieve Redcloak's goals. The ~10,000 survivors of Azure City who were either friendly or neutral towards goblins will now spend the rest of their lives hating goblinoids for what they did to their homes and families. Any goblins they find wherever they settle down will more than likely be exterminated (hrm, I could actually see that as a plot point later in the strip), despite the fact that these goblins had nothing to do with the invasion of Azure City, just like 99% of the Azurites Redcloak killed had nothing to do with the destruction of Redcloak's village.

So what Redcloak has accomplished so far is to kill thousands of innocent people on both sides, and completely ruin any hopes for a peace between goblins and humans anytime soon.

[NENAD]

If Redcloak's actions have completely ruined any hopes of peace, then all hopes of peace were gone thousands of years ago, but that's just details...

Redcloak and the Saphire Guard are level; both are xenocidal villains to me.

[lonewolf23k]

Are the hells really that bad? Or are they just evil heavens like the Abyss from Dragonlance?

Well, the thing about the Hells is that it's basically filled with people who have no bias against generally abusing and pushing around weaker people around for fun and profit. And it's run by beings who are generally more powerful then the rank-and-file damned who end up there.

In short, it's like being in Prison, only you're the b*tch.

[TigerHunter]

Besides, have we seen any guarantee that goblins get a good afterlife? I'm fairly sure that they go to one of the more hell-like planes when they die.
If they're Good or Neutral, they go to heaven. Not the same heaven, but a place where they can be happy. If they're evil murdering bastards like Redcloak, they rot in hell.
Not all goblins are Evil, you know. And if they are Evil, then they pretty much deserve that life of suffering.


Are the hells really that bad? Or are they just evil heavens like the Abyss from Dragonlance?
The Nine Hells and the Abyss are fighting a never-ending inter-planar Blood War to exterminate the other. Hades is in between the two, and is the primary battle site. Carceri slowly drains all your happiness away until you're left with nothing but despair. Gehenna is a volcanic wasteland.

All are inhabited by demons or devils. So not exactly the nicest places to be, but if you're evil enough you might enjoy them.





If Redcloak's actions have completely ruined any hopes of peace, then all hopes of peace were gone thousands of years ago, but that's just details...

Redcloak and the Saphire Guard are level; both are xenocidal villains to me.
Rephrase: ruin any hopes for peace anytime soon.

[Gamerlord]

Redcloak is insane.

It's called being a religious fanatic. It's not exactly a "one or the other" thing. Redcloak believes so strongly in his fake god's teachings that he's going to destroy the world to bring the ideal he wants about. That's entirely irrational despite being justified by his past.
you're a fool as is evry good guy lover.

[Milandros]

I'm not sure I would describe him as insane, just misguided. I mean, it's easy for us to say that we would take a life of suffering--we haven't suffered like the goblins have. It's entirely possible that taking out all of the humans that have oppressed them would seem worth the sacrifice to a goblin. Besides, have we seen any guarantee that goblins get a good afterlife? I'm fairly sure that they go to one of the more hell-like planes when they die. I know I didn't see any in Roy's afterlife, but then again I don't suppose there are many Lawful Good goblins...

SoD spoiler:



Actually, we've seen some goblins living peacefully in a pretty fair amount of happiness and contentment. Redcloack's brother settled down, had a family and was easily described as a successful, happy family man. He almost convinced Redcloak to join him too.

Then along came Xykon and made them burn down their own homes and follow him. Redcloak snapped back to heel. Shortly later almost all of theat happy family was dead, and then Redcloak murders his brother for wanting to kill Xykon.

I suspect that given enough time (and the opportunity not to be raided by lunatic adventurers) that village might have been the start of something much, much better for the goblins than Redcloak's plan.

[Charles Phipps]

Redcloak isn't anymore insane then I am; he's willing to gamble everything on an attempt to give goblinoids a lot in life that doesn't involve being brutally murdered left and right so every adventurer and his brother can get to level three.

Despite, again, it being obvious his own people don't care about this goal. I think it's been fairly clear that the Goblins have had their own God for a long time and can have their own people.

However, Redcloak is still fighting for wrongs done ages ago.

[Rogue 7]

When the villain plays the "It's really all your fault the world's about to come to an end" card, you know that he's at the very least on questionable moral ground, if not downright nuts. Redcloak's crazy, but it's more the dangerous fanatic type crazy than Belkaresque crazy.

[Illiander]

And all he's doing by fighting back is helping validate those opinions, and ending/ruining the lives of people on both sides. The last thousand years of history have fairly conclusively shown that violence actually feeds the flames of racial hatred, rather than extinguish them.


You know, I wish politicians (American, European, Middle-Eastern, the lot), would realise this, but there's more personal profit in war when you own the weapon companies. But if everyone was a buddist (or even just followed what they claimed to follow (hypocrite christians really piss me off, especially when they're in positions of power)) then the world would be a much nicer place.

[bibliophile]

Redcloak's plan has a small chance of success, but all the slaughtering and killing on both sides will only worsen race relations, as has been said above. That being said, having a plan that is extremely dangerous/ or potenially counter productive, is not insane. Very risky, yes, but Redcloak knows the risks, and feels that any chance of success is worth the risk.

[Trazoi]

The main crazy part of Redcloak behaviour is that he believes he's on a mission from his god. In this world that might be a sign of insanity, but in the OotS-verse the gods are fairly obvious and I'll take it that the Dark One really did instruct Redcloak the way he appears to have done (in SoD).

From that perspective, Redcloak's actions appear perfectly logical. He's just enacting his deity's wishes. From this perspective and given he's the high priest of his religion it'd take a lot of personal fortitude to defy your own god.

The second apparently crazy part is his willingness to gamble the entire world for his plan, but that's just a reaction to what he's been through. As can be seen in SoD, Redcloak has already sacrificed a lot for the plan (some of which was his own fault, but it's done now), and from his point of view destroying the world wouldn't be as bad as the alternative. Granted, some of that negativity might be admitting that both he and the Dark One might be wrong, but again it's perfectly understandable to trust in your deity's plan.

Of course, the question is whether the Dark One is sane. Or if he is deliberately misleading his followers for his own ends. In both cases Redcloak is just a victim of his religion.

[Morty]

SoD spoiler:



Actually, we've seen some goblins living peacefully in a pretty fair amount of happiness and contentment. Redcloack's brother settled down, had a family and was easily described as a successful, happy family man. He almost convinced Redcloak to join him too.

Then along came Xykon and made them burn down their own homes and follow him. Redcloak snapped back to heel. Shortly later almost all of theat happy family was dead, and then Redcloak murders his brother for wanting to kill Xykon.

I suspect that given enough time (and the opportunity not to be raided by lunatic adventurers) that village might have been the start of something much, much better for the goblins than Redcloak's plan.




I haven't read SoD, so I might be very well dead wrong here, but I do have a strong suspicion that any attempt to start a peaceful goblinoid nation would be cut short by band of adventurers who want to earn some XP by destroying this unholy den of evil creatures. Of course, this suspicion is based on treatment of goblinoids in D&D, not the comic itself.

[SPoD]

Whether or not Redcloak is insane depends on how you define insanity. I can't think of a clinical definition that applies, all I see are people saying, "That's a crazy plan, he must be crazy."

The only true mental illness I can see in Redcloak is being suicidal, in an extremely passive way. I suspect on some level he wants to die, to alleviate the guilt of what he has done in SoD, but lacks the stones to do it to himself. Plus, in a world with a provable afterlife, is suicide even the same thing? He would just end up having to face the people he wronged in the afterlife, as well as his deity's wrath for failing.

But, if he were to succeed in unleashing the Snarl, he would be able to enjoy oblivion without guilt, and his last moment would be knowing that he WON. That it was all worth it.


I haven't read SoD, so I might be very well dead wrong here, but I do have a strong suspicion that any attempt to start a peaceful goblinoid nation would be cut short by band of adventurers who want to earn some XP by destroying this unholy den of evil creatures. Of course, this suspicion is based on treatment of goblinoids in D&D, not the comic itself.

In SoD, we see goblins from that village attending a circus run by humans, with no one so much as commenting on it. They clearly were not being hunted down just because they were goblins, at least in that part of the world.

[Morty]

In SoD, we see goblins from that village attending a circus run by humans, with no one so much as commenting on it. They clearly were not being hunted down just because they were goblins, at least in that part of the world.

I see. Well, there's still the fact of difference between commoners and adventurers but it indeed makes my suspicion rather unbased. I have to get my hands on SoD one day...

[SITB]

In SoD, we see goblins from that village attending a circus run by humans, with no one so much as commenting on it. They clearly were not being hunted down just because they were goblins, at least in that part of the world.

On the other hand, we have the Dark One himself trying to create an equal goblinoid nation. It didn't end well. Which is why he became a god in the first place.

Besides, as far as we know, the rural area could just be one of a few where goblins live in harmony with the other original races, where mostly they are prescuted. Either way, there's no evidance.

[Estelindis]

Whether or not Redcloak is insane depends on how you define insanity. I can't think of a clinical definition that applies, all I see are people saying, "That's a crazy plan, he must be crazy."

The only true mental illness I can see in Redcloak is being suicidal, in an extremely passive way. I suspect on some level he wants to die, to alleviate the guilt of what he has done in SoD, but lacks the stones to do it to himself. Plus, in a world with a provable afterlife, is suicide even the same thing? He would just end up having to face the people he wronged in the afterlife, as well as his deity's wrath for failing.

But, if he were to succeed in unleashing the Snarl, he would be able to enjoy oblivion without guilt, and his last moment would be knowing that he WON. That it was all worth it.
That is a rather astute piece of analysis. *tips hat*

[NikkTheTrick]

Redcloak is insane.

It's called being a religious fanatic. It's not exactly a "one or the other" thing. Redcloak believes so strongly in his fake god's teachings that he's going to destroy the world to bring the ideal he wants about. That's entirely irrational despite being justified by his past.
I would not call any religious fanatic insane in a world where gods are proven to exist and manifest their will all over the place. In fact, being a religious fanatic would be a very reasonable thing to do. Not any less reasonable than following Paladin's code.

[Jayngfet]

redcloak is perfectly sane, given circumstances


what would you do if you were the high priest of a guy who was murdered while trying to make a good life mass murder in his name isn't that hard to beleave, look at the crusades


and thats not even factoring in that supposed champions of law and good indiscrimnently murdered your friends, family and teacher without negative effects, unmaking them seems fairly rational to you

come on people, goblins aren't even monsterous humanoids.

[VetMichael]

Whether or not Redcloak is insane depends on how you define insanity. I can't think of a clinical definition that applies, all I see are people saying, "That's a crazy plan, he must be crazy."

The only true mental illness I can see in Redcloak is being suicidal, in an extremely passive way. I suspect on some level he wants to die, to alleviate the guilt of what he has done in SoD, but lacks the stones to do it to himself. Plus, in a world with a provable afterlife, is suicide even the same thing? He would just end up having to face the people he wronged in the afterlife, as well as his deity's wrath for failing.

But, if he were to succeed in unleashing the Snarl, he would be able to enjoy oblivion without guilt, and his last moment would be knowing that he WON. That it was all worth it.



In SoD, we see goblins from that village attending a circus run by humans, with no one so much as commenting on it. They clearly were not being hunted down just because they were goblins, at least in that part of the world.

Nihilism is, by definition, insane. Therefore, since he's hoping for the unmaking of the universe, he's insane - he's not really angling for a better world for his people, or revenge on humans, but the total unmaking of everything. Nihilism. Insane.

[Morty]

Nihilism is, by definition, insane. Therefore, since he's hoping for the unmaking of the universe, he's insane - he's not really angling for a better world for his people, or revenge on humans, but the total unmaking of everything. Nihilism. Insane.

In the last two strips it is very clear that Redcloak does not want to see the universe destroyed, just that he's willing to accept the risk. Not a sign of mental health, but it doesn't mean utter nihilism and insanity.

[Moriarty]

Nihilism is, by definition, insane. Therefore, since he's hoping for the unmaking of the universe, he's insane - he's not really angling for a better world for his people, or revenge on humans, but the total unmaking of everything. Nihilism. Insane.


aside RCs behaviour doesn't fit in your pattern,


why should nihilism be insane? O.o

(how could somebody, who KNOWS the origin of existence be a nihilist anyway?)

[Roderick_BR]

Doesn't sound insane to me. He's just willing to bet on a VERY risk odd of success. He did tell O-Chul that if the heroes stopped destroying the seals, he would finish his mission earlier.

[Mewtarthio]

(how could somebody, who KNOWS the origin of existence be a nihilist anyway?)

They could still follow the basic philosophies of nihilism. It'd just be a bit different. Rather than being atheistic, they could be misotheistic (belief that the gods are unworthy of worship). The important thing is that they believe life has no meaning, and thus no action is "better" than another.

Redcloak is not a nihilist by any stretch of the imagination. By SPoD's interpretation, he's either too cowardly to face the consequences of his actions (and thus would rather face utter oblivion than deal with failure) or else simply so wracked with guilt that he no longer considers the destruction of his soul a necessarily bad thing. "Passively suicidal" is an interesting way to put it, but even that implies that he wants to die. I don't think he's got a death wish so much as he just wouldn't particularly mind if he died. That is to say, when he weighs the pros and cons of his plan, his own utter annihilation doesn't fall anywhere on the list.

He's still most definately not a nihilist. He may not care about his own life, but he cares about goblinkind as a whole, and seeks to advance their cause. If that advancement requires him to utterly erase everything so the Dark One can start from scratch, then so be it.

[Tyrmatt]

Redcloak seems chillingly sane to me. He's running a torture session like a lab experiment, attacking O-Chul where it hurts a paladin the most: the conscience. O-Chul now has 16 death's on his own personal karma. Redcloak is just seeing how far he can push the paladin's guilt before he cracks. Sadistic maybe, but not insane.

And this is forgetting that the Guard are responsible for the death's of how many of Redcloaks's family and friends? His desire for revenge is well founded and motivated. And in a nice role-reversal, the humans were the slaughterers' and the goblinoids now the ones bringing on the psychological aspect.

On a final note, if the world is indeed unmade as RC points out, then he has nothing to fear in terms of reprisals against his immortal soul. He is the very example of a man with nothing to lose, putting all his faith, energy and actions towards one final assault against the world that has denied him a life of happiness and contentment in the hope that it will result in something better for the future. There will be no suffering or loss for his brothers if the Snarl is unleashed, no afterlife or judgement. And so he makes the hard choice that no one else can make: to stand on the precipice of the end of the world and hurl himself off as the villain of this piece because once he is gone, his god will reward his service by creating a more equal world for those who come after. And RC can go down swinging.
I'd rather go down that way than speared on the end of a sword as XP fodder any day.

[Querzis]

Redcloak is sane alright...but that just make him a lot more evil and more dangerous. At least you can reason an insane man with a little effort or an insane man would just go do something else after a while. Redcloak is perfectly sane, which means he cant be diverted from his goal and got absolutely nothing to lose to achieve them, not even his life.

I wish Redcloak was insane because a sane man who want to do what Redcloak want to do is a lot more creepy and tragic.

[Mewtarthio]

At least you can reason an insane man with a little effort or an insane man would just go do something else after a while. Redcloak is perfectly sane, which means he cant be diverted from his goal and got absolutely nothing to lose to achieve them, not even his life.

...Not that I'm arguing against Redcloak's sanity, but don't you have that backwards?

[Querzis]

...Not that I'm arguing against Redcloak's sanity, but don't you have that backwards?

Not that all though I guess this means some people dont know what insanity his about. When we are talking about insane mass murderers, its pretty much always psychopath or most likely sociopath. Now first off, both of those can be healed with a good psychologist so you can definitly reason them. Even normal people who know them can still put their insanity to other use like Belkar and Thog can be easely used as crazy attack dogs as long as you got enough power to intimidate them or show them enough affection that they dont wanna kill you. And, of course, most insane people dont have enough dedication, attention span or interest to do plans like that and they are even less likely to pull it off. Beside, psychopath and sociopath do care about their life, they are not ready to die for something (unless they are absolutely sure a dwarf cleric is going to resurect them).

You cant reason with Redcloak, he has a goal and he already loss everything he had for that goal. He has nothing to lose and cant let all the sacrifice he made to be in vain so there's no way he will ever let go of that goal. A sane crusader is a lot more dangerous then an insane crusader because he wont ever stop. A sane crusader with good intentions is even more dangerous since he can do lot of evil things and it wont bother his conscience since he only see the good goal he has in the end. Redcloak is a sane crusader with good intentions, he wont stop no matter what while the really insane guys in the comic (Belkar and Thog) can be controlled. I have no doubt Thog could even become a good guy with people with good influence around him and who to tell him the difference between good and evil.

[Illiander]

They could still follow the basic philosophies of nihilism. It'd just be a bit different. Rather than being atheistic, they could be misotheistic (belief that the gods are unworthy of worship). The important thing is that they believe life has no meaning, and thus no action is "better" than another.


How is beliveing that life has no inherent meaning insane? Sounds like the most reasonable option to me.


...

Mostly good points. Different way of saying the same thing, cos people seem a little confused about what you mean: Thog and Belkar (and Xykon) can be reasoned with/convinced to do something less Evil because they haven't/don't think their actions through. Redcloak has spent a very long time thinking about what he's doing, and has decided it's the right thing for him to do. He's got massive Wisdom, and decent Int, so he probably hasn't got much wrong that you can use to confront him with, and that's the way to fix someone like him, confront him with the places where he's wrong, and make him see his own inconsistencies. Or offer him something more amusing to do, which also won't work, he's too dedicated.

Plus, he's in the best possible situation for success, he has literally nothing to lose if he fails, so he doesn't care if he succeeds or not (which is always the best attitude to take when you really need to get something done), and his god set him up to do this, so he doesn't even need to worry if he's doing the right thing: he knows he is.

[Mewtarthio]

How is beliveing that life has no inherent meaning insane? Sounds like the most reasonable option to me.

I wasn't the one who said nihilism was insane. I'm not a philosophy student; I don't know enough about nihilism to judge it. Still, I think there's more to nihilism than the belief that life has no inherent meaning--I'm pretty sure existentialists and absurdists believe the same thing, and they don't really like nihilists.

The point's moot, anyway, since Redcloak's not a nihilist.


Mostly good points. Different way of saying the same thing, cos people seem a little confused about what you mean: Thog and Belkar (and Xykon) can be reasoned with/convinced to do something less Evil because they haven't/don't think their actions through. Redcloak has spent a very long time thinking about what he's doing, and has decided it's the right thing for him to do. He's got massive Wisdom, and decent Int, so he probably hasn't got much wrong that you can use to confront him with, and that's the way to fix someone like him, confront him with the places where he's wrong, and make him see his own inconsistencies. Or offer him something more amusing to do, which also won't work, he's too dedicated.

That's not a matter of sanity. That's a matter of devotion to a cause. At least you can understand how a sane man thinks. An insane man, on the other hand, may well be completely alien to you, or your sanity could be alien to him. For instance, a sociopath cannot be swayed by an appeal to his empathy. Redcloak can't be swayed that way, either, but only because he believes humans don't matter. If you could somehow convince him that his actions were harming goblins, then, well, he'd probably just torture you some more and ignore you, but at least you'd make him feel a little worse about himself.

Of course, to continue this argument further, we'd need to have clearer definitions of what sanity really is. Is Redcloak's complete and total devotion to his cause some sort of acquired mental disorder, or is he perfectly normal?

[lonewolf23k]

I don't think Redcloak's insane... By the clear definition of the word, he's definetly in full control of his mental faculties, he knows what he's doing, knows what's going on around him, and is fully responsible for every one of his actions.

It's just that his course of action happens to be one of utter devestation that risks endangering the whole world.

...What really fascinates me is that, in spite of all his Anti-Paladin/Anti-Human propaganda, Redcloak has virtually become the exact mirror of everything he hates.

Like the Sapphire Guard, he's driven by a Divinely ordained mission. Like them, this mission takes precedent over everything else, and he's shown the willingness to make every sacrifice necessary to accomplish it.

O-Chul and Redcloak's situation is just begging for a "Not So Different" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent) moment, only with O-Chul leading the dance...

"O-Chul: We're not so different, you and I... We both serve our Gods, and will do everything necessary to accomplish the mission they've entrusted us with...
Redcloak: Shut up! We're Nothing Alike!
O-Chul: Oh really? I admit, it's true.. We Adventurers continuously slaughter your kind just for the Experience Points.. But I have to ask...
*Dramatic Pause*
...how many Humans have YOU slaughtered to get to your present level?"

[DanielX]

I wouldn't characterize him as insane. Incredibly evil, yes.

The current strip is basically a "point of no return" for him - willfully destroying souls like that takes you past the Hitler/Sauron/Cruella deVille/Belkar sort of evil and into Cthulhu/Slaanesh/Snarl sort of evil territory. Or, to put it in other terms, his evil factor has reached into the meganazis, temporarily at least passing Xykon (though I have little doubt that Xykon is capable of much the same). The goblins couldn't possibly have deserved such a leader, bad as most of them are.

[Counterpower]

Is Redcloak insane? I'm not sure. "Insane" is really a legal term, not a mental diagnosis.

From that legal standpoint, is Redcloak insane? No. He is clearly capable of controlling his behavior.

Mental health possibilities: Antisocial personality disorder, or absolutely no regard for the feelings of others. Probably moderated by racism, focusing said lack of care against humans. The possibilities that Redcloak's a psychopath (lack of conscience) or sociopath (lack of empathy) has already been brought up.

Would I react by saying, "That's insane!" if I didn't know and had just learned what Redcloak was doing? Absolutely. He's risking total annihilation for what? Information on the defenses of a gate far distant that he might not be able to reach anytime soon and could possibly be unable to control, AND he might have to fight powerful adventurers to get there? He needs to work on his priority list.

[Theodoriph]

Not that all though I guess this means some people dont know what insanity his about. When we are talking about insane mass murderers, its pretty much always psychopath or most likely sociopath. Now first off, both of those can be healed with a good psychologist so you can definitly reason them.



Wow...that's so wrong it's not even funny.


Honestly, you people need to learn what psychopaths and sociopaths actually are before you start accusing people (and Redcloak) of being them. :smalltongue:

[NENAD]

What would be creepier is if Redcloak knew he was hurting humans who don't deserve it, actually felt bad about it, but felt it was a necesarry sacrifice to ensure a better future for goblinkind. At that point there's effectively no way to stop him except feeding him to the Snarl.

[Moriarty]

Mental health possibilities: Antisocial personality disorder, or absolutely no regard for the feelings of others. Probably moderated by racism, focusing said lack of care against humans.

not racist, speciecist(? speciest? specist?)!

he was a racist once, by letting the hobbos suffer, but now he fights for equal rights for all goblins!

[Illiander]

What would be creepier is if Redcloak knew he was hurting humans who don't deserve it, actually felt bad about it, but felt it was a necesarry sacrifice to ensure a better future for goblinkind. At that point there's effectively no way to stop him except feeding him to the Snarl.

He's probably already there. He purpously didn't go and destroy several kingdoms when just destroying one (which he sees as having this coming to it) would do the job, when given the option. Also, it seems that he made Xykon skip round Somewhere and Nowhere when on the way to Azure City, which either means that he didn't want to waste time, or that he's just being efficient with how he uses his hightly erratic and boredom prone Lich (we can't tell from what has happened so far, and it could easily be both).

Quite frankly, I'm impressed with the Giant for Redcloak: he's managed to pull of someone who does the "if I can't rule the world, I'll destroy it", without it seeming like he's a spoiled brat (which is how most villains that do this come off).

[Renegade Paladin]

you're a fool as is evry (sic) good guy lover.
What? :smallconfused:

[Catskin]

Even if he's not truly insane, Redcloak sports the mad evil genius thing frighteningly well.

[Tom90deg]

Redcloak seems chillingly sane to me.

I personally have a theory about sanity. The opposite of insanity is sanity. It's insanity. Sanity is the 0 setting, while insanity is the positive and negative settings.

Redcloak is insane, he's willing to bet the world that this plan to blackmail the Gods will work, but he forgets that he dos'nt exactly own the world. I think he's so far in, he can't get out. Even if he wants to, he has so much guilt, that he can't. He just keeps repeating over and over, "For the greater good, for the greater good..." Which, to my mind, is a real mark of someone who's insane, willing to destroy and kill any innocent just because they're the wrong race. Oh my wait, he's JUST like the humans! Killing innocents just because they're a certain race. Bet it took quite a bit of repeating that mantra over and over to rationalize that particular bit of action.

I'd also be willing to bet that Xylon dos'nt know about this little plan. As he said, "Hey, I like the world. I'd only destroy it if i got REALLY bored."

[Pronounceable]

If the everyday person is on the middle ground of the sanity scale, one side is the cackling mania, other is the grim determination. "Insanity" is usually what the first end is called, like Belkar and Xykon and Joker and so many others.

If we define sanity being away from insanity, RC is far too sane. Remember how unhappy he was when he realized he was being Xykonlike. RC is on the second end. He knows insane when he sees it (he sees it everyday) and he's not it.

[VetMichael]

Redcloak seems chillingly sane to me. He's running a torture session like a lab experiment, attacking O-Chul where it hurts a paladin the most: the conscience. O-Chul now has 16 death's on his own personal karma. Redcloak is just seeing how far he can push the paladin's guilt before he cracks. Sadistic maybe, but not insane.

And this is forgetting that the Guard are responsible for the death's of how many of Redcloaks's family and friends? His desire for revenge is well founded and motivated. And in a nice role-reversal, the humans were the slaughterers' and the goblinoids now the ones bringing on the psychological aspect.

On a final note, if the world is indeed unmade as RC points out, then he has nothing to fear in terms of reprisals against his immortal soul. He is the very example of a man with nothing to lose, putting all his faith, energy and actions towards one final assault against the world that has denied him a life of happiness and contentment in the hope that it will result in something better for the future. There will be no suffering or loss for his brothers if the Snarl is unleashed, no afterlife or judgement. And so he makes the hard choice that no one else can make: to stand on the precipice of the end of the world and hurl himself off as the villain of this piece because once he is gone, his god will reward his service by creating a more equal world for those who come after. And RC can go down swinging.
I'd rather go down that way than speared on the end of a sword as XP fodder any day.

Experimentation, no matter how clinical and thorough, does NOT mean that someone is sane. You can be INSANE and still function as a scientist, it's just that your hypotheses are flawed by your mental illness (such as RC's belief that O-Chul has some mystical, obscure power that allows him to keep a secret in the face of the world's mightiest (and weirdest) magic) - see Sergei S. Bryukhonenko (http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=930), for example. Full-blown gonzo nuts. Sure, we can get scientists to set up a very solid, scientifically-sound procedure to mate a duck with a slab of granite, but that doesn't make it SANE.

As for the revenge scenario - sure, it's not insane, but the SCALE of his desire for vengeance (i.e. risking unmaking the universe, thereby killing Goblins all over the world, making him the greatest fratricidal agent in the history of the OOTSverse) that makes him so. For instance, if the Paladins of Azure City had embarked upon utilizing Soon's Gate to destroy all of creation because of the inherent sins of the world, then I don't think anyone here would be arguing that they weren't insane (mostly because most of the people here seem to hate Paladins, but I digress) - so why should RC get a pass on this one? The racial war between Humans and Goblins has been going on since forever, so who is more to blame? And didn't the group that the AC paladins slaughtered worship the Dark One - Isn't the Dark One an evil deity? It's not like evil deities promote living in peace with one's neighbors. Do we know what preceded the paladin-led slaughter of RC's tribe? Did the followers of the Dark One attack first? Did they prey on travelers? Villagers? Honestly, we don't know why the Paladins attacked (at least not the FULL reason) BUT since it wasn't an evil act (since none of the Paladins fell) we can assume there was a legitimate cause.

As for the whole unmaking thing; his view is very narcissistic in that he only cares about what will happen to his own soul (namely, nothing) if the Universe is unmade. Nihilism + disregard for the sanctity of life (for the sake of argument, let's say GOBLIN life only) + inability to believe the simple truth despite evidence to the contrary + narcissism = insanity in the form of a sociopathic, paranoid, delusional psychotic. As for "being rewarded" by his deity - which is it? The world will be unmade (meaning that NONE of this will have happened in the "new" world) and thus there would be no injustice to be righted OR he will be rewarded by his God? Can he be rewarded when he no longer exists? Is there any guarantee that the Snarl won't consume HIS god? His brand of "villainy" - the whole "going down swinging" thing - sounds a lot more like Jim Jones than defiant last gesture to me, only instead of poisoned Kool-Aid so his followers won't suffer further injustice, RC's unleashing a "Snarl." RC = OOTS's Jim Jones.

[Doug Lampert]

On the other hand, we have the Dark One himself trying to create an equal goblinoid nation. It didn't end well. Which is why he became a god in the first place.

Besides, as far as we know, the rural area could just be one of a few where goblins live in harmony with the other original races, where mostly they are prescuted. Either way, there's no evidance.


No. Even in the Dark One's OWN VERSION of events we see him trying to blackmail a bunch of existing kingdoms into giving him land and wealth that they've already accumulated. That's not just a fair shake or just an attempt to create an equal nation. That's an attempt to collect tribute at best. The attempt to live peacefully and build a better life which we did see worked quite well, until Redcloak and Co. showed up at least.

[NENAD]

I think it's safe to say that because of goblins status as Always Chaotic Evil, Paladins won't fall for killing goblins unless they are explicitly good guys; ordinary goblins are automatically evil, no matter how little they've done, according to divine will. Remember that alignment basically only applies so far as the gods are willing to enforce it; they have a total stranglehold on what is Good or Lawful.

[Voyager_I]

Redcloak isn't insane. Like he says, he knows exactly what he's doing and what's at stake. He probably understands the reality of the situation more than any other character in the comic.

[hamishspence]

its Usually Neutral Evil (usually LE for hobgoblins) NOT Always CE.

In any case, 3.5 has veered away from the Its always OK to kill evil creatures concept.

[Milandros]

The problem with this is that sanity can't be defined accurately. Sanity is a conscensus thing, implying a mental state that is within an acceptable deviation from the majority. What we regards as sane and insane depends enormously on our upbringing and environment.

I could argue that beleving an old manuscript literally when it directly contradicts evidence you can see would be a good example of insanity - but there are plenty of people who take their religious tract of choice as true even when all the real-world evidence shows that it is not. Are they insane? Most would argue no, they are merely devout, or fundamentalist, or something similar. [NOTE-this is not a religious debate, I am not introducing it as a topic for debate, I am not stating a position, merely an example of when evidence can contradict observation]. The uber-Star Trek geek who really, really believes that it mnust really be true somehow (as immortalised in Galaxy Quest) is another example. But are they insane?

Perhaps one might regard an attitude of "women are for breeding only, young boys are for loving" in a man as insane. However, whole societies such as Sparta ran on such beliefs. Sanity is a tenuous thing.

Heck, how much of what you do is dubiously sane? Smoking? That's nuts! Chasing women/men you have absolutely no chance of getting? Crazy! Debating faceless anonymous people who never change their minds on an internet message board over issues raised by a comic? Absolutely insane.

[The Wanderer]

The problem with this is that sanity can't be defined accurately. Sanity is a conscensus thing, implying a mental state that is within an acceptable deviation from the majority. What we regards as sane and insane depends enormously on our upbringing and environment.

The other problem is one that both the OP and a number of people in this thread seem to be missing. To quote Terry Pratchett "There are few excesses that can be committed by even the most depraved psychopath that cannot be easily duplicated by a perfectly normal, ordinary, and sane family man with a job to do".

[Lissibith]

In reading this, I guess I keep coming back to this - I think a lot of people are thinking Redcloak's crazy because he's the "Bad Guy" and not necesarily because he's acting insane. Even though we're seeing Redcloak, I don't think we're seeing it from his POV, the way we do Roy when he's on stage. We're getting what of his thoughts and motivations he's comfortable saying aloud - and since I'd guess his level of trust in those around his is hovering near zero, that's not gonna be much. Now if it was Roy or some other human hero and they were doing these things, not only A. would we be more likely to at least understand because we're more likely to see any mental trouble it causes them but B. be more likely to understand simply because they're human characters and they're the "good guys" and people are far more willing to forgive good guys doing bad things than bad guys doing them.

[NENAD]

its Usually Neutral Evil (usually LE for hobgoblins) NOT Always CE.

In any case, 3.5 has veered away from the Its always OK to kill evil creatures concept.

"Always Chaotic Evil" is a trope. Look it up.

Also, the "it's bad to kill goblins for being goblins" bit of 3.5 doesn't seem to have made it into this particular setting. That's what I'm guessing, at least, because if not, Redcloaks crusade becomes less like a seventeenth-century African struggling to exterminate the Europeans who are slowly but surely annihilating his people and more like a modern day African struggling to exterminate Europeans because Africa's current poverty is due to what they did...Or rather, what their great-grandparents did. At that point, he's just a xenocide, not really campaigning for goblinoid rights at all.

[Alex Warlorn]

*SPOILERS*

I've always felt there was something fishy about that slaughter. Why would a paladin use their smite evil on a lowly goblin grunt, when the most powerful goblin alive is right there? And why didn't any of them use their Smite Evil on the previous Crimson Mantle when it would have been the most logical to take out the most dangerous enemy quickly instead of wasting it on weakling who you could take out with just one good sword swing anyway?

And why didn't those paladin's mounts vanish after their riders were killed?!

*END SPOILERS*

[†Seer†]

They could still follow the basic philosophies of nihilism. It'd just be a bit different. Rather than being atheistic, they could be misotheistic (belief that the gods are unworthy of worship). The important thing is that they believe life has no meaning, and thus no action is "better" than another.

Sounds like a baseless stereotype to me. I don't worship a god but I believe 100% that life has meaning. I don't think religion has a huge bearing on an action being "good" or "bad", so much as what the religion itself views as good or bad. (Meh was going to go into that further but it gets into religion and non pretty heavy...PM if you want) To round off the point though, people have morals, whether or not they're religious (mostly), and do have an opinion on 'better or worse' actions.

@OP: I don't think RC is insane so much as frustrated, up against a brick wall, and running out of ideas.He's the only one 'in-the-know' that seems to be working towards the end, while Xykon and the MiTD are having fun with O-Chul for their own amusement. It would irk me to no end if I was in a management position and the other managers were screwing around when we *needed* to do the work. I think in RC's eyes, the end justifies the means. What's the current world's amount of souls lost to perhaps an exponential number of happy ones in the new world (if it comes to that)? Again, this isn't my personal views, but what I imagine RC to be thinking.



The other problem is one that both the OP and a number of people in this thread seem to be missing. To quote Terry Pratchett "There are few excesses that can be committed by even the most depraved psychopath that cannot be easily duplicated by a perfectly normal, ordinary, and sane family man with a job to do".

"Cannot be Easily duplicated", not cannot be. While it may be harder for a 'normal' person to commit some act outside of their natural nature (heh..), they are still capable of doing said action.

[Kish]

"Always Chaotic Evil" is a trope. Look it up.

Also, the "it's bad to kill goblins for being goblins" bit of 3.5 doesn't seem to have made it into this particular setting.

Spoilers for OtOoPCs.

Roy certainly thought it was bad to kill orcs for being orcs...
That's what I'm guessing, at least, because if not, Redcloaks crusade becomes less like a seventeenth-century African struggling to exterminate the Europeans who are slowly but surely annihilating his people and more like a modern day African struggling to exterminate Europeans because Africa's current poverty is due to what they did...Or rather, what their great-grandparents did.
...and it was a point of contention between him and the first adventuring party he joined.

You're presenting it as either/or, but it's a lot more like, well, what actually happens with D&D players, which you can observe on this board. No matter how clearly WotC says it's wrong to kill goblins for being goblins, lots of players will regard that statement as an annoyance and nothing more.

[hamishspence]

Or say "its only in Exalted and Vile, which aren't core books, and therefore not valid..."

Or say "those books have lots of poor ideas, so chuck out everything they say about alignment..."

and so on.

[Callista]

I'll use the BoED/BoVD fluff only where it's a rational extension of the Core books. The spells are fine; so're the featsAnd of course there are rules found there that you can't find elsewhere--specifically, for redemption, torture, sacrifice, and a how-to guide for redeeming evil items.

[hamishspence]

i tend to see the fluff in BoVD and BoED as mostly rational extensions of core books. its some of the feats that tend to irritate most people (VoP has a poor rep, though it is of biggest boost to weakest class (monk))

Redcloak is a long way from Xykon-esque crazy, but he seems to be prone to deluding himself. Still to him, reality can seem like the crazy one, which is why he can't understand Soon's Oath.

[Callista]

Don't allow VoP in a low-magic or low-power game, and you're fine. It's meant to give a character the same power that other PCs have, and the trouble comes when the other PCs are underpowered or badly built. And, anyway, if a PC has VoP, that means he can't abuse magic items.

[Eric]

Surely it's appropriate to consider this aphorism (where from I can't remember):

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

By that measure, RC is insane.

Personally, I think that's a little extreme, but he has lost the plot. He's forgotten about the people he's supposed to be helping (the WHY) and now only considers the end goal (the HOW). He's obsessing and his mental state is interfering with his rationality. Mild insanity, but insanity nonetheless.

[pjackson]

Not that all though I guess this means some people dont know what insanity his about. When we are talking about insane mass murderers, its pretty much always psychopath or most likely sociopath.
[...]
Beside, psychopath and sociopath do care about their life, they are not ready to die for something (unless they are absolutely sure a dwarf cleric is going to resurect them).


Well the mass-murderer who worked with my father did kill himself (after being convicted).

[VetMichael]

Redcloak IS, beyond a shadow of a doubt, INSANE.

The latest comic (Endurance Feat) proves it.

1) despite ALL magic, divination, and proof to the contrary, Redcloak absolutely REFUSES to believe that O-Chul has no information. Refusal to accept reality and then adapt to that reality to further your goals is insanity - it's like being at a dead end of a maze and REFUSING to accept that you've made a wrong turn and should try again.

2) Redcloak is unable to understand logic. As a prisoner, O-Chul is powerless to stop Redcloak from doing anything to the prisoners. He DID say that, were he free, he'd kill Redcloak and attempt to affect a rescue, but since he's powerless, he'd pray for the families of the victims. Redcloak - evidently stuck deeply in psychosis by now - is unable to accept the fact that O-Chul has NO power to affect the lives of the slaves despite their imminent doom. He's so convinced of the barbarity of Humanity that he is unable to perceive another answer, which, of course, is a symptom of his insanity.


Conclusion: inability to accept reality AND irrationality AND catch-22 double standards = insanity. This is true for goblins, humans, orcs, hippopotamuses, and tribbles and is NOT based on any cultural or racial biases. If Redcloak asked Xykon to grow a goatee, or eat Spam, would we give him a free pass because all Goblin leaders traditionally grew goatees and ate Spam? No, because Redcloak (at least by now) should understand that Xykon is undead and would be unable to do the former and unwilling (if not unable) to do the latter. He's insane.

[The Wanderer]

Redcloak IS, beyond a shadow of a doubt, INSANE.

The latest comic (Endurance Feat) proves it.

Nope. One is perfectly capable of being sane and doing things that others would look at and say "That's completely nuts!" *Tries to avoid mention of current politics*

We'll have to agree to disagree. :smallsmile:

[The Wanderer]

*Ahem*

You were saying? :smallbiggrin:

[Voyager_I]

The machinations of a fractured mind indeed.