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quiet1mi
2008-04-04, 05:35 PM
I was going through the monster manual to create interesting NPC for my players and I thought I would use a lycanthrope...

But that is when i hit the problem of their level adjustment....

They are all the same!!!!

they are all +2 if your afflicted and +3 if you are natural, however I can not understand how a wererat (1 HD) is equal to a werebear (6 HD i think)...

if there is any other factors to why things like this is true please post them

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-04, 05:41 PM
Because a natural wererat character's starting ECL would be 5 (1 humanoid HD, which may be a class level + 1 animal HD + 3 LA), while a werebear's starting ECL will be 10 (1 humanoid HD + 6 animal HD + 3 LA). Animal HD sucks, so it kinda balances out somewhat.

Lycanthrope template ain't the best template for the PCs to use though; remember, you can't use your Alternate Form ability to change into a creature with templates (reverting back to the humanoid form is not a use of AF ability; it's just 'turning it off'.). For DMs? Hey, no matter how many HD the animal has, the maximum CR increase will only be +6! werelegendarytiger, I choose you!

Zocelot
2008-04-04, 05:46 PM
Dusk giants from heroes of horror can have a base strength of 54 They're even more powerful if you add infinite hit dice via the lycanthrope template.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-04, 05:51 PM
Dusk giants from heroes of horror can have a base strength of 54 They're even more powerful if you add infinite hit dice via the lycanthrope template.

No, it can't be infinite because every monsters have an advancement limit. Since a werelegendarytiger template will add +22 Str, then a werelegendarytiger dusk giant will have Str 76, with CR equal to base giant's CR + 6.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-05, 02:13 AM
Can class levels be taken instead of Humanoid levels for any race, Bag of Holding? I was just wondering in case other creatures with LAs could substitute Humanoid HDs like that or if it just applied to Lycanthropes.

tyckspoon
2008-04-05, 02:18 AM
Can class levels be taken instead of Humanoid levels for any race, Bag of Holding? I was just wondering in case other creatures with LAs could substitute Humanoid HDs like that or if it just applied to Lycanthropes.

Only if there's just the one hit die. Multiple racial HD must be taken in their entirety. It can be done for any creature type, but most LA'd creatures with racial hit dice have more than one racial HD and can't take advantage of it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-05, 02:20 AM
Thasks for telling me (I wasn't famliar with that rule: I'm a new player so I wondered if it could be used in place of my LA 0 Gnoll variant).

Amur_Tiger
2008-04-05, 04:17 AM
No, not in the slightest, here's a comparison of the attack rolls and damage delt by a werewolf and a weretiger in their first round of combat.

Werewolf:
Bite +5 melee (1d6+3)
on average able to attack for 15 and deal 6 damage in the first round
Weretiger:
2 claws +11 melee (1d8+7) and bite +6 melee (2d6+3) and rake +9 melee, damage 1d8+3.
on average attacking for 21/16/19 and dealing 44 damage in the first round

This is what pounce and rake do for you, further more while the wolf gets a free trip attack the weretiger gets a free grapple check, the lesson here is were-templates have unbalanced level adjustments and that tigers are damn scary because personally I'm betting on the 44 damage a round against a party of 5th level characters.

Nebo_
2008-04-05, 04:26 AM
Dusk giants from heroes of horror can have a base strength of 54 They're even more powerful if you add infinite hit dice via the lycanthrope template.

You know what else is really powerful if you give it infinite HD? Everything.

Everyman
2008-04-05, 11:22 AM
Please be aware that lycans that use dire animals as their base template are much better off than regular lycans. Dire animals get perfect save progression on their animal HD, good BAB and are much stronger for their level adjustment than normal lycans with more class levels.

So...not all lycanthropes are created equal. It really depends what animal you base the template on.

hamishspence
2008-04-05, 11:33 AM
and if you do not like the Dire name, there are prehistoric monsters which use the same rules for good saves as dire beasts: sabre tooths, megaloceros, etc.

Dire werewolf should be good for those who want a 9 ft high bipedal monster rather than an ordinary wolfman.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-05, 12:08 PM
Bag_of_Holding already pointed this out, but just to clarify:

Effective Character Level (which is used for all manner of XP calculations) is equal to Hit Dice plus Level Adjustment.

ECL = HD + LA

It doesn't matter if those HD are class levels or Animal or Humanoid HD or what. (Since most monster HD are greatly inferior to nearly any class levels, this means creatures with monster HD tend to be inferior as PCs.)

Callos_DeTerran
2008-04-05, 12:11 PM
I prefer the were-tyrannosaurus rex more then any mere furry animal...mostly cause nobody ever really expects a were-dinosaur and the idea is just so much fun.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-05, 12:31 PM
nobody ever really expects a were-dinosaur

Anyone who's familiar with the RuneQuest campaign book Dorastor: Land of Doom does. Were-stegosaur warrior.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-05, 01:04 PM
I perfer a Were-Balor. No one expects that! (mostly because Balor aren't animals)
Dr. Jekyrl was totally a Were-Orc.