Are there humans in the towers?

[Migodnar]

If you pay attention in the fifth square there are people in the tower under the rift. If you pay more attention you will find 2 orange skinned persons with black clothes and the rest of them wearing rags. Could they be hobgoblins and human slaves? What would they be doing there?

[Glome]

They would be there to sacrifice humans in the rift if the Paladin doesn't talk, damning them to complete non-existence.

[Callista]

If they are humans, then yes; but the picture is really too small to tell. Mass speculation will probably still result, though.

If Redcloak tries something like that, though, O'Chul won't actually be vulnerable to the "forced choice" method of getting him to talk, because he doesn't have the option to talk (by all accounts, he doesn't know the info Redcloak wants). Well, he could lie; but there's always Zone of Truth and I don't see his Bluff modifier being all that high. Paladins don't get much practice lying.

[Remirach]

I actually wish this hadn't been pointed out to me because now it does seem likely that Redcloak will threaten to send human prisoners into the rift, and if he actually does go through with it, that'll be his rape the dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog) moment for me and I don't know if I could even like his character at all afterward.

I hope it doesn't make me a hypocrite -- I know he's evil, already, but that just actually makes me kind of ill. I do own SoD and I know he's willing to let EVERYONE suffer the fate of having their souls destroyed by messing around with the Gates, but at least that's a last resort he wants to avoid.

[Callista]

Yes; there are lots of evil people who wouldn't destroy someone's soul.

[aapje]

Ah well at least half won't come anywhere near the gate, being control group and all :smallwink:

[Remirach]

Eeeesh. :smallfrown:

If I was apprehensive about this comic, the next one might be even worse. Those poor prisoners... most look anxious, (one guy looks pissed) but one of the ones in group 1 has his eyes closed as if he's making peace with the horrible fate he's about to endure. It's the little details like that which really bring home just how gruesome this is.

But maybe I am a hypocrite as I don't utterly hate him just yet even though he's going to do exactly what I said should make me hate him. He's honestly coming across as increasingly mentally deranged.

[factotum]

Ah well at least half won't come anywhere near the gate, being control group and all :smallwink:

No, they'll just come very near to the ground at very high speed...I doubt they'll be worried much about the distinction. :smallsmile:

[Estelindis]

Eeeesh. :smallfrown:

If I was apprehensive about this comic, the next one might be even worse. Those poor prisoners... most look anxious, (one guy looks pissed) but one of the ones in group 1 has his eyes closed as if he's making peace with the horrible fate he's about to endure. It's the little details like that which really bring home just how gruesome this is.
I know, I feel the same way. :smallfrown: That guy with his eyes closed really provokes my pity - showing the different ways people react to this horror is a testament to the Giant's skill... This is absolutely horrific.

I don't hate Redcloak. I've never hated any of the characters in this comic - not even Xykon. Xykon is worthy of hate, but because his awfulness is pulled off in a comical way he doesn't usually provoke a bad reaction from me. However, if Redcloak does carry out this threat, I agree that I may start to feel rather differently about him. To me, this is something that only the worst of the worst would ever do.

(Of course, as all this is happening, I can't help but remember that it was the conflicts between the gods that created the Snarl in the first place...)

[FrostXian]

Those humans are idiots, they should just fight back, and die by the sword, raising to the heavens.
They need to.. headbutt the **** out of those goblins!

[Estelindis]

I agree that they should fight back in order to at least protect their souls. But what if they don't know what the rift does? Quite likely, given the secrecy surrounding the Snarl. They may just think they're going to die ordinary deaths. Of course, while fighting would still be more sensible than just allowing oneself to be pushed off, they're all tied up and weaponless. They will not be able to grapple. An unarmed attack with, say, a headbutt will provoke an attack of opportunity, probably resulting in their deaths. Ditto a trip attempt. (Presuming they don't have feats to negate the AoO - but that's kinda unlikely, since they're just commoners.)

[SPoD]

I agree that they should fight back in order to at least protect their souls. But what if they don't know what the rift does? Quite likely, given the secrecy surrounding the Snarl. They may just think they're going to die ordinary deaths. Of course, while fighting would still be more sensible than just allowing oneself to be pushed off, they're all tied up and weaponless. They will not be able to grapple. An unarmed attack with, say, a headbutt will provoke an attack of opportunity, probably resulting in their deaths. Ditto a trip attempt. (Presuming they don't have feats to negate the AoO - but that's kinda unlikely, since they're just commoners.)

Exactly, those humans think that they're going to die, yes, but that the Twelve Gods will welcome them as martyrs. They don't know what the rift does.

[Nathander]

Those humans are idiots, they should just fight back, and die by the sword, raising to the heavens.
They need to.. headbutt the **** out of those goblins!

Actually, the result will probably be the same regardless of what they do, considering Redcloak's actions.

If they don't fight back, they'll be thrown in to the rift, there souls destroyed.

If they do fight back, they'll all probably be killed without inflicting any damage as they're most likely all commoners, and then their corpses will be thrown into the rift, which I'm betting will probably still destroy their souls.

[Estelindis]

If they do fight back, they'll all probably be killed without inflicting any damage as they're most likely all commoners, and then their corpses will be thrown into the rift, which I'm betting will probably still destroy their souls.
It might not. Personally, I've always felt that the soul leaves the body one round after hitting -10 HP (though the "one round after" bit is just a house rule, whereby if someone hits -10 HP then my players have precisely one round to get to them and heal them, or they're perma-dead). However, if the hobgoblins were to, say, reduce them to -3 HP (or some such) and then throw them in, then yes, I imagine their souls would be destroyed.

[hamishspence]

there are game mechanics supporting this: a spell in Miniature Handbook and other sources allows you to resurrect a person with no level or CON loss, if performed within a round of death: Revivify, 5th level, cleric and healer.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Eight will become unmade; six will fall to their deaths. Whoo!

[Migodnar]

Eeeesh. :smallfrown:

If I was apprehensive about this comic, the next one might be even worse. Those poor prisoners... most look anxious, (one guy looks pissed) but one of the ones in group 1 has his eyes closed as if he's making peace with the horrible fate he's about to endure. It's the little details like that which really bring home just how gruesome this is.

But maybe I am a hypocrite as I don't utterly hate him just yet even though he's going to do exactly what I said should make me hate him. He's honestly coming across as increasingly mentally deranged.

It is sad, but would they think twice before pushing one of the goblins to the rift, even if they knew what was going to happen? I don't think so.
The goblins think the humans are already souless and the humans think the goblins are already souless.

[Callista]

In self-defense, they might. But this is all academic--they haven't got a clue what the rift does, and probably neither do those hobgoblins who've got a Grapple on them.

Oh, and: For an evil-aligned soul, annihilation is probably preferable.


Exactly, those humans think that they're going to die, yes, but that the Twelve Gods will welcome them as martyrs. They don't know what the rift does.They wouldn't be martyrs... They didn't have a choice. Not that they wouldn't be going to a decent afterlife. But consider that these are probably true neutral Commoners--not paladins, not people particularly close to the gods. Just ordinary people, like the guy who works at the grocery store or the old lady who walks her dog down your sidewalk every morning. I think it is much more tragic for someone like that to die, than an adventurer or a soldier who's been aware of and somewhat OK with the possibility of death for a long time.

If we're lucky, the Snarl will be unaware of the prisoners.

[Remirach]

It is sad, but would they think twice before pushing one of the goblins to the rift, even if they knew what was going to happen? I don't think so.
The goblins think the humans are already souless and the humans think the goblins are already souless.
But it's not those humans I've come to sympathize with and even root for to a degree despite their outwardly evil actions. And D&D mechanics makes things like the concept of souls literal facts that can't be ignored.

In SoD Redcloak was visibly sickened that Xykon wanted an ogre to eat Lirian's zombified body in front of her soul. (There was a definite "ewww" factor in just the eating factor of the equation, but when Xykon revealed his motive to make Lirian go insane, Redcloak honestly seemed surprised that even XYKON would go that far. "We're not really going to do this, are we???") THAT was a character I had empathy for. Of course, it's now been two destroyed Gates and one dead brother later. With Redcloak point-blank stating that he has nothing BUT his literal soul left to sacrifice by this point, I guess he feels the stakes are too high to let anything stop him.

Although there is some stupidly hopeful part of me that hopes somehow this does not come to pass... but I doubt it. Learning about the Snarl IS worthwhile for Redcloak's purposes, so he has no reason to stop just because his threat didn't work on the paladin.

[Remirach]

They STILL haven't been killed. Redcloak called his minions down when O-Chul looked ready to talk. Is the next strip the end for them? Will he halt his men again if O-Chul cries another protest? Or is THIS now their final moments?

I have the sneaking suspicion the Giant is enjoying this too much...