Need a build for a Green Star Adept

[Coplantor]

OK, so I'd like to have a character with 10 levels in Green Star Adept but I dont really know what to do about the other 10 levels, if anyone has a build or a good advice then I'm all ears (well, eyes actually since I'll be reading the posts).

I think I'd like him to be quite strong in a melee encounter and be quite versatile regarding his skills.

[Azerian Kelimon]

With that last sentence, you pretty much described Factotum.

[Coplantor]

And factotum would be... ???

[Azerian Kelimon]

The ultimate versatile class. It can fight, skillmonkey, cast spells, heal, and play fiddle better than a bard. It's in Dungeonscape. If you want to imagine a Factotum, picture Indiana Jones in all his glory, with his theme in the background.

[tyckspoon]

Well, if you're not really set on Green Star Adept, I would recommend not using it. It's not a very good class. If you like the idea of being a construct or construct-like, consider playing a Warforged and taking it into a Beguiler or Factotum-based gish.

If you want to stick with Green Star Adept.. mm. Beguiler 6 (skill and spellcasting requirements)/Fighter 1 (point of BAB)/ Green Star Adept 10/ Abjurant Champion/season to taste. Or straight Beguiler to 8, GSA as far as you want to go, Abjurant Champion to finish. You'll be relying on Beguiler for your skills, since GSA only has a base of 2/level and has a pretty bad class skills list. Or straight Factotum until you qualify for Green Star, assuming the Factotum's ability qualifies it as an arcane caster. Factotum's all skills are class skills thing will make Green Star Adept's excessive Knowledge prerequisites much less annoying to get.

[SamTheCleric]

I'm 100% for people taking a prestige class outside of the norm... but be careful of that level 10 ability...

http://photo.gangus.com/d/26788-2/ackbar.jpg

[Coplantor]

I picked the class because I liked the concept, it is actually to have a "reserve" character for any campaign I may start in the future. I liked the class because it represents the search for immortality at any price lke lichdom but without being evil, it involves selfsacrifice and a life long quest to find the star metal needed for the transformation. Those were the concepts I liked, as a class, well, it`s not perfect but that's not what I look when I create a character.

[Collin152]

I'd probably like the class more if I liked starmetal more.
Few special materials bother me, but starmetal does.

[Coplantor]

I'd probably like the class more if I liked starmetal more.
Few special materials bother me, but starmetal does.

You know you can change the material the class is based on? Is in the "Adaptation:" part, it even gives as an example "Iron adept"

[Collin152]

You know you can change the material the class is based on? Is in the "Adaptation:" part, it even gives as an example "Iron adept"

Too late, engraved in my head. The distaste is there to stay.
Sides, iron is so... much cheaper.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Deep crystal or Blue ice, then? Much cooler, they are.

[tyckspoon]

I'd use adamant. It's already the game's default material metaphor for something everlasting and unconquerable (never mind that the mechanics mean you can eventually pick it apart with a toothpick if you have enough strength.) It just doesn't have mystic associations like meteoric ores, but neither does iron.

[Collin152]

Deep crystal or Blue ice, then? Much cooler, they are.

Lost cause. Sure, you can always reflavor things, but you can't get rid of the original aftertaste.
Not with me anyways.

[Azerian Kelimon]

What about making the GSA into a superpowered sort of Elan? I'm definetely going to make something like that, 'cause Deep crystal is just that cool.

[Coplantor]

Call me noob but, what are Elans and what is deep crystal?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Elans are psionic constructs that don't age and have a few nice powers, at the cost of a CHA penalty, I believe.

Deep crystal is a material very conductive of psionic power. By expending 2 PP, you can add 2d6 damage to any attack with a weapon made of Deep crystal. It pwns.

[tyckspoon]

Elans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans)- psionically active humanoid Aberrations that were once normal humans. They undergo some sort of transformation ritual that erases most of their memories and makes them immortal.

Crystal, Deep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm) psionically sensitive crystal, basically.

[Coplantor]

In wich book you say they are? because a friend gaved methe "complete psionic" and i realized that now I need the expanded psionic handbook to fully understand the writtings of that misterious book and if I get the EPH I hope those elans and the deep crystal are described there

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yep, they're there. I recommend getting that book, since it's one of the three best supplements to come out for 3.5. And I'd go so far as to say it's way, way better than core. 'Course, that's not much of an achievement...

[Solo]

OK, so I'd like to have a character with 10 levels in Green Star Adept but I dont really know what to do about the other 10 levels, if anyone has a build or a good advice then I'm all ears (well, eyes actually since I'll be reading the posts).

I think I'd like him to be quite strong in a melee encounter and be quite versatile regarding his skills.

Solo's Green Star Adept build.

Wizard 10, with prerequisites.

Character level 11: You are now ready to take class levels in Suck.
12: More Suck.
13: Even more Suck
14: Lesser Suck
15: Improved Suck
16 Great Suck
17: Superior Suck
18: Greater Suck
19: Mighty Suck
20: Capstone Ability: Endless Suck

Moral of the story: Drugs habits suck. Don't get addicted to space crack.

[GammaPaladin]

Technically, the entire XPH is in the SRD... Just without the fluff.

[Coplantor]

Yep, they're there. I recommend getting that book, since it's one of the three best supplements to come out for 3.5. And I'd go so far as to say it's way, way better than core. 'Course, that's not much of an achievement...

Wich two other complements are in your opinion the other best?


Solo's Green Star Adept build.

Wizard 10, with prerequisites.

Character level 11: You are now ready to take class levels in Suck.
12: More Suck.
13: Even more Suck
14: Lesser Suck
15: Improved Suck
16 Great Suck
17: Superior Suck
18: Greater Suck
19: Mighty Suck
20: Capstone Ability: Endless Suck

Moral of the story: Drugs habits suck. Don't get addicted to space crack.

Not exactly what I was looking for but man, I think I've hurted myself laughing.


Technically, the entire XPH is in the SRD... Just without the fluff.

But I love the fluff...:smallfrown:

[The_Snark]

Yeah, the Green Star Adept suffers from being not very good at anything in particular, what with half spellcasting and less-than-full attack bonus. Construct immunities are nice, damage reduction is decent, immortality is pretty awesome, losing hit points from Con isn't fun, and of course having to hunt down obscure metals every time you gain a level or not even gain any of your class features sucks. Sadly, the benefits do not really outweigh what you lose.


What about making the GSA into a superpowered sort of Elan? I'm definetely going to make something like that, 'cause Deep crystal is just that cool.

The 3rd-party supplement Hyperconscious has a class focused around turning into crystal. A pretty decent one, as it happens.

[Iku Rex]

GSA is a reasonably balanced PrC, and it can be powerful if played right.

Coplantor:
Books available?
Ability scores?

[The Great Skenardo]

Duskblade is actually MADE to satisfy the pre-reqs for this class.
BAB: best progression
Skills, including the obscure knowledge:Architecture and Decipher script are all class skills.
You get Combat Casting as a Bonus Feat.
It retards your spellcasting quite a bit, but if you're going to make a GRA, Duskblade misses the spellcasting less than most other builds that would get you there, and plus you can qualify by 6th level to take it without straining yourself.

[The_Snark]

Sadly, the Duskblade loses quite a bit by taking the class; it has less spellcasting and less base attack bonus, plus you'll miss out on some class features, many of which are quite good.

If you just like the GSA, though, Duskblade's not a bad way to do it. Warlocks can get in pretty easily too, and don't lose quite as much from it... though that's partly because they have less to lose to begin with. :smallfrown:

[Aquillion]

GSA is a reasonably balanced PrC, and it can be powerful if played right.How? You get weak casting, weak BAB, and some very poor abilities that grant minor defensive advantages. You would be overwhelmingly better off as an Eldritch Knight, and Eldritch Knight isn't even particularly good itself. You would do nearly as good simply multiclassing wizard 5/fighter 5 for those levels, and that's just horrible.

GSA isn't a 'balanced' PrC, it's flat-out weak. And you can't say people should ignore its mechanical effectiveness and take it for flavor, because come on, nobody's flavor consists of "My wizard/fighter develops green skin and stops advancing effectively in magic and fighting because of their addiction to green space crack."

Normally I wouldn't respond to a request for help by telling someone that their chosen class is just weak, but when the OP said this:
I think I'd like him to be quite strong in a melee encounter and be quite versatile regarding his skills.I think it's fair. There is no build that is going to get you that out of the Green Star Adept. You might, with a bit of optimization, become competent at combat despite the GSA's disadvantages, but you won't be 'quite strong' unless you use some sort of trick that's so broken that wasting 10 levels in GSA doesn't matter anymore. And the skill situation is even worse; GSA has an unimpressive skill list and 2 skill points per level (if you're entering from an int-based casting class your int mod may help make up for this, granted, but you'll still have poor skill selections.)

In fact, I'll go out on a limb here: Fighter 5/ Wizard 5 is better. You get the same BAB (7), the same casting ability (5 levels), and the one Metamagic + two or three fighter bonus feats you get are going to be better than the GSA's class features. You also don't have to waste your money advancing, or find starmetal, or waste skill points on pointless prerequisites.. You get (very) marginally more HP on average as a GSA, but being able to add your con mod to HP can more than make up for it. And keep in mind, simply multiclassing Fighter/Wizard is considered so weak that they included a PRC in core that exists simply to make it obsolete... and that PRC is, itself, generally considered somewhat underpowered.

It's your character, and if you want to play GSA you could probably still have fun depending on the DM and the game... but don't go into it expecting to be good at skills and combat, because the GSA isn't really that good at combat and isn't even intended to be good at skills.

[Solo]

GSA is a reasonably balanced PrC, and it can be powerful if played right.



Perhaps you would care to play it right for us?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Perhaps you would care to play it right for us?

Hide in your personal demiplane until the end of time, casting nothing but explosive runes on a scrap of paper, which you then present to Asmodeus? Sure, there are better builds for it, but GSA ain't bad for it.

[mostlyharmful]

If you like the flavour play a full caster that researches a new spell to turn the caster into a warforged thats beefed up a fair bit, have them need half a dozen kilos of random rare element X and then give them a level adjustment that they can buy off ala the Unearthed Arcana rules. GSA is nice fluff but terrible aweful stinktastic crunch.:smallfrown:

[Iku Rex]

How? You get weak casting, weak BAB, and some very poor abilities that grant minor defensive advantages. You would be overwhelmingly better off as an Eldritch Knight, and Eldritch Knight isn't even particularly good itself. You would do nearly as good simply multiclassing wizard 5/fighter 5 for those levels, and that's just horrible.I would normally stop at 8 levels of GSA if I was looking for "power". I'm a big fan of a high Con and lots of hit points. But let's see what you get from 10 levels (compared to wizard/fighter).

+6 unnamed bonus to Str
-3 penalty to Dex (bad)
DR 10/adamantine
darkvision
low-light vision
+6 natural armor
+5 caster level
Immunity to poison, drowning, suffocation, starvation, thirst, sleep effects, fatigue, exhaustion, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects, or is harmless.
Can be healed by arcane repair spells.
+20 hit points as construct
Con nonability (bad for HPs and Fort save)

Now tell me again how that all that's worth less than a few bonus feats. The loss of the Con score hurts, but in return you get a boatload of immunities and you can choose to put more points in Str, Dex and Int.

[mostlyharmful]

But let's see what you get from 10 levels (compared to wizard/fighter).

Stuff
+5 caster level
Some nice Stuff
Con nonability (bad for HPs and Fort save)

Now tell me again how that all that's worth less than a few bonus feats. The loss of the Con score hurts, but in return you get a boatload of immunities and you can choose to put more points in Str, Dex and Int.

You'll be casting at least two spell levels behind a full caster. The liability to anti-construct stuff doesn't really come into the picture compared to that.
-5 casting. That's the difference between getting 8th level spells as the end point of the build versus 9th level casting for three levels. All the fun advantages can be duplicated with an extended or persisted Shapechage plus god knows what else...

[Iku Rex]

You'll be casting at least two spell levels behind a full caster. The liability to anti-construct stuff doesn't really come into the picture compared to that.
-5 casting. That's the difference between getting 8th level spells as the end point of the build versus 9th level casting for three levels. All the fun advantages can be duplicated with an extended or persisted Shapechage plus god knows what else...-5 spellcasting levels compared to a full caster, yes. +5 spellcasting levels (+10 caster level) compared to a non-caster melee character. It's hard to top the power of spells like shapechange in melee, but you can't declare every character without access to 9th level spells uselessly underpowered.

GSA is a melee class. It should be compared to fighters and barbarians, not buffed-to-the-ears shapechanged melee wizards.

[mostlyharmful]

-5 spellcasting levels compared to a full caster, yes. +5 spellcasting levels (+10 caster level) compared to a non-caster melee character. It's hard to top the power of spells like shapechange in melee, but you can't declare every character without access to 9th level spells uselessly underpowered.

GSA is a melee class. It should be compared to fighters and barbarians, not buffed-to-the-ears shapechanged melee wizards.

Its BAB disagrees with you. As a Gish it fails at one of the two hurdles, either keeping BAB or casting as close to full as possible, yes it has some very nice beanies but Warforged or a selection of well chosen gear will give similar stuff. The complete loss of Con is also something of a kiss of death to a melee build that focuses on hp (read barb) and the lack of FIVE feats isn't insignificant if you want a feat intensive build that Fighter is a good base for. If you want to compare it to anything the Duskblade is about the closest you've got because this is clearly intended for a Gish not a flat melee role. Bear in mind that the OP is intending to use GSA on a full casting build otherwise, not a full BAB class with a level of caster tacked on.

[Fostire]

If you give the GSA full BAB or full casting progress, would that make it more balanced?

[Everyman]

If you give the GSA full BAB or full casting progress, would that make it more balanced?

Not really. What the PrC really needs are more hit points. At 10th level, I would have liked the class to change all current and future HD into d10s, and give the player some way to quickly repair hit points on the battlefield (like repair critical X/day with a caster lvl equal to class level).

.......

If you are set on being a construct gish (which is what a GSA is), may I suggest simplying going Warforged Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight X? It isn't the most optimized combination out there, but if you use the following variants...

Stats
Int and Dex High, Con and Str average or better, Dump Cha and Wis

Fighter 1: Use Complete Mage variant, crossclass at first level for 2 ranks Know (Arcane) and gain the ability to cast spells in light armor at the cost of a bonus feat
Wizard 1-5: Do what you will, but learn some repair spells.
Eldritch Knight: Choose a fighter feat you like, then gish away.

Sugggested Feats
Mithral Body (Counts as light armor, better armor bonus)
Weapon Finesse (Use that Dex)
Mithral Fluidity (if you need a higher Dex bonus to AC and want less Armor Check penalty)

With this combo, you'll still have nearly full casting, better than average BAB, a fair amount of skill points (from your Int score), and roughly everything major you get from GSA. You'll only be missing the DR, Rapid Repair (which is essentially "resting"), construct traits and strength bonuses (which seem to be in the PrC to offset the average BAB progression). You can replicate the the construct traits and DR with the proper spells (such as stoneskin and the construct essence spells from the Eberron books).

If you are dead-set on being a GSA, I would seriously recommend NOT going with duskblade unless someone in the party knows the repair spells. If you're going to have to provide your own healing, then you'll have nothing but Rapid repair to help you at 10th level (duskblades can't learn the repair spells). If you duskblade your way in, you're going to need wands of repair and a high UMD check. GSA isn't a terrible class (I've played it), but it does require that you plan a little before you start get too far into it.

[Iku Rex]

Its BAB disagrees with you.No it doesn't. Medium BAB is typically given to "melee with good benefits" classes.


As a Gish it fails at one of the two hurdles, either keeping BAB or casting as close to full as possible, You don't need either. BAB is needed to increase average damage per (full) attack. The +6 Str alone pretty much compensates.


yes it has some very nice beanies but Warforged or a selection of well chosen gear will give similar stuff. Nope.


The complete loss of Con is also something of a kiss of death to a melee build that focuses on hp (read barb)What do you mean it "focuses on HPs"? The DR 10/admantine will take off 10 damage from most melee attacks. If you don't think that and the +20 construct HPs is enough, Improved Toughness (CWar), and temporary hit points from heart of earth (CMag) and an amulet of tears (MIC) should add more survivability. A GSA also has an excellent base for a high AC with the natural armor and arcane AC buffs.

And all this only applies if the player really wants the last GSA level, and the campaign lasts long enough to get it and continue playing the character.


and the lack of FIVE feats isn't insignificant if you want a feat intensive build that Fighter is a good base for. Yes, if you want a feat intensive fighter build playing a non-fighter won't help.

If you want to compare it to anything the Duskblade is about the closest you've got because this is clearly intended for a Gish not a flat melee role. Bear in mind that the OP is intending to use GSA on a full casting build otherwise, not a full BAB class with a level of caster tacked on.The OP said nothing about a "full casting build". He wanted strong melee and versatility. Perfectly doable.

[Solo]

I think I'd like him to be quite strong in a melee encounter and be quite versatile regarding his skills.

Bard with Bardic Knack alternate class feature, the standard buffing spells, the spell Improvisation (SpC), Lingering song, Snowflake Wardance and Iaijutsu focus?

[mostlyharmful]

The PrC which are intended for Gish builds with either non-cullcasting or without full BAB tend to be the ones that nobody talks about, some of them have nice fluff like the GSA but that is what they have going for them for the most part.

Strength mods are one of the big advantages of the class, no arguing there, but it doesn't make up for the advantages of full BAB when you start playing with power attack. And by the time you start taking this virtually every combat themed PC, NPC and many monsters I at least tend to run into will be using Adamantine.

I'm curious what advantages you're thinking that a well equiped warforged will lack by the time you finish the PrC, let alone at lower levels.

For the Nat Armour bonus, I'd hold that the reduction in AC through dex drops and particularly Touch AC which becomes ever more important overshadows it in terms of worth.

And having reread it seems I was indeed wrong about the OP, between my own impression of GSA and the postings of others I was led astray, sorry about that. oops.:smallredface:

[Iku Rex]

Strength mods are one of the big advantages of the class, no arguing there, but it doesn't make up for the advantages of full BAB when you start playing with power attack.It is uncommon for a melee character to benefit from using full Power Attack. You're unlikely to find many situations where -3 AB for +6 damage is better than a simple +4 damage from the added Str. You do get an extra iterative attack sooner with a better BAB, but those tend to make Power Attack less attractive even if you have a special advantage like wraithstrike.

And by the time you start taking this virtually every combat themed PC, NPC and many monsters I at least tend to run into will be using Adamantine.Monsters very rarely have adamantine weapons. There is a single monster in the MM with an adamantine weapon - the CR 21 titan. Not one of the NPCs in the DMG has an adamantine melee weapon. (There are a few adamantine arrows.)

Based on my experience with several different DMs and several different high level campaigns, adamantine weapons are not that common. PCs don't matter of course, unless you're doing an evil PvP campaign or something.

I'm curious what advantages you're thinking that a well equiped warforged will lack by the time you finish the PrC, let alone at lower levels.First of all, you said a warforged or a selection of well chosen gear would give similar benefits.

I would think it's your responsibility to show that it is possible, not mine to show that it's not.

Obviously a warforged/juggernaut (ECS) can get the construct immunities, but that's a bit beyond a generic "warforged". Besides, it's not like warforged juggernaut is intended for melee. (Medium BAB...:smalltongue: )

Gear duplicating the GSA bonuses are harder to come by. Sure you can buy a necklace of adaption and a ring of sustenance, but many of the other benefits are harder to come by. An item like the amulet of natural armor doesn't count, because it provides the same benefit for the GSA.

And the main thing is of course that anything you do to mimic the GSA's abilities means sacrificing something else. As a warforged you give up the racial abilities of some other race. You have a 10 000 gp head start on the GSA equipment-wise (starmetal mixture), but then you need to start making sacrifices.

For the Nat Armour bonus, I'd hold that the reduction in AC through dex drops and particularly Touch AC which becomes ever more important overshadows it in terms of worth.+6 total AC is far more important than a measly +1 (or +2) touch AC. When an opponent makes an attack roll it will typically be a regular attack and when it isn't you tend to need a really high touch AC to make a difference. A miss chance is better, and as a partial Sor/Wiz caster a GSA has numerous options in so regard. If you're really worried for some reason, prepare scintillating scales (SpC) and turn your natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus.

[The_Werebear]

Reasonable points

The main problem that all of your reasonable points leave out is that you have to go on an epic quest to retrieve your fix of stardust or you don't gain any of that stuff you mentioned.

Your DM may be nice and let you drop at least 6000 gp / level at an alchemist to pick up a pound of starmetal and the other components you need. Many, however, would force you to march to the ends of the earth to pick that stuff up. Your party will be thrilled to know they marched all that way through all that danger to feed your addiction to rocks.

In any case, you could purchase most of the stuff to equal out the benefits (and keep your levels for other classes) for 60k.

[Draz74]

The only time I can imagine wanting to make a Green Star Adept is if I actually wanted to lose my CON score.

So ... play a race that has a -6 CON penalty? Maybe a Venerable Kobold with 4 CON or something? Who starts questing for starmetal as a sort of immortality quest as he suddenly realizes it's only a couple years before death starts knocking at his door?

That actually sounds fun, although good luck living long enough to reach Level 15.


Monsters very rarely have adamantine weapons. There is a single monster in the MM with an adamantine weapon - the CR 21 titan. Not one of the NPCs in the DMG has an adamantine melee weapon. (There are a few adamantine arrows.)

Based on my experience with several different DMs and several different high level campaigns, adamantine weapons are not that common.

Well, a DM who is annoyed by their GSA's DR will start bringing in NPCs with adamantine weapons, naturally, so it's kind of moot whether NPCs pre-built in the book have them.

[mostlyharmful]

+6 unnamed bonus to Str
-3 penalty to Dex (bad)
DR 10/adamantine
darkvision
low-light vision
+6 natural armor
+5 caster level
Immunity to poison, drowning, suffocation, starvation, thirst, sleep effects, fatigue, exhaustion, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects, or is harmless.
Can be healed by arcane repair spells.
+20 hit points as construct
Con nonability (bad for HPs and Fort save)

Ok, so this is what GSA gives you over ten levels.

While I believe the Bonus Str and Nat Armour doesn't balance with the drop in dex and BAB this can be argued either way dependant on feat choices, play style and DM style. When I play a melee build finding ways to use PA with regularity and reliability is kind of integral to being a useful part of the team, either uping the mobility with ToB and feats or choosing races that can use pounce or using reach weaponry or whatever.

The bonus hit points aren't as much as you'd get from a decent HD class and a frount liners Con bonus, add on that the usual methods of regaining hp (the fastest lost resource if you want to tank) can't be used on a GSA.

The Big advantage is turning into a construct, with all its immunities. most of these can be acheived with the Undead, Plant or Elemental types which are easier to get into without using class levels (or there are classes that don't lose as much to get there), if you add in LA buy-off its a whole lot easier to get hold of immunity to crits, or stunning, or poison without taking up ten levels.

Now, Warforged. Give them adamantine body and add fortification and they'll have most of what GSA gets without giving up Con, positive energy healing, ten levels or their touch AC. Volodni could be used for a Plant race (+2 LA but still) and Necropolitan for the Undead.

Now each of these has their drawbacks and I'm not arguing that GSA isn't fun fluff or useless, just that there are more effective builds that either give much the same benefits or give much the same fluff with less cost.

And that's without touching the tendancy of DMs to use the Quest-for-your-level-up thing.

And Touch AC becomes more important as you go up the levels, by the time you get to high ones it is almost the only one that matters since keeping up AC to the things that you're facings attack routine gets more and more expensive but Touch AC can still be useful against casters in some situations (note some, since true strike pretty much overturns that one), generally against divine casters that don't get it or sorcs that can't quicken it.

[The_Snark]

It's worth noting that if it's the immortal transcendence aspect you like, rather than the class abilities, Eberron has a class focused around becoming a living construct.

It's less about an addiction to space rock than it is about idolizing the perfect glory of the machines. Your party won't think you're any less crazy for replacing large portions of your body with construct grafts, but really, sanity is optional for either class.

Mechanically, the class is a bit better; it requires some crafting feats, and gives you medium BAB, d6 HD, two good saves, and you're only losing two caster levels. It can be a pretty fair gish or just a full caster who's slightly behind the curve, although said casters ought to see if they can manage a way to cast in at least light armor. It's open to artificers and divine casters too, both of whom can make good gishes.

[Sebastrd]

Warlock 10/Green Star Adept 10

- The Improved Caster Level ability means you'll only be missing out on a bunch of invocations. You still get full caster level and EB damage.
- Rely on your natural attack from GSA + Hideous Blow to deal damage (think Iron Fist from Marvel comics).
- Obviously the Dex penalty impeeds your ranged attack, but your GSA abilities (natural armor, DR) should allow you to stay in melee range.
- Get your UMD bonus up to a 10 so you can use wands of repair at will.

I can understand the misgivings some of you have about using such an inefficient class, but I don't think optimization was the #1 concern of the OP. GSA is not designed to replace a tanking fighter or a full caster. Whatever it was designed for, a warlock GSA build can be an effective striker (to use some 4E lingo). While it would obviously benifit from the extra skill points a rogue gets, the GSA doesn't have to worry about the plethora of enemies immune to sneak attack. Hideous Blow+Vitriolic Blast gives what basically amounts to full sneak attack damage against almost every foe. Instead of having situational combat usefullness and a bunch of skills, you'll have more consistent combat effectiveness with some cool utility powers.

[lord_khaine]

i think you could make some interesting gish with some levels in wizard and fighter, but on the other hand i do also think you could make allmost the same with by picking warforged as a race and making a wiz/fight/eldrich knight.

[Iku Rex]

The main problem that all of your reasonable points leave out is that you have to go on an epic quest to retrieve your fix of stardust or you don't gain any of that stuff you mentioned.

Your DM may be nice and let you drop at least 6000 gp / level at an alchemist to pick up a pound of starmetal and the other components you need. Many, however, would force you to march to the ends of the earth to pick that stuff up. Your party will be thrilled to know they marched all that way through all that danger to feed your addiction to rocks.

In any case, you could purchase most of the stuff to equal out the benefits (and keep your levels for other classes) for 60k.First of all, you don't have to use the "starmetal" fluff. As the adaptation section says,


It would be easy to postulate that the base material from which the prestige class derives its name is some other substance, even without changing the abilities derived from the material in any way. Thus, a practitioner of this prestige class could instead take his powers from quartz, jade, sapphire, iron, black iron, steel, or some other substance known for (among other things) solidity. -- Complete Arcane
That said, having to go on adventures to find starmetal is not a bug. It's a feature. :smallsmile: With a starmetal-thirsty GSA around at least one party member can be relied on to go along with the adventure without a nightmare of "what's my motivation for this adventure" method-acting. If the DM won't let you find any starmetal you're screwed, but that's something you should work out with the DM beforehand. PrCs should always be cleared with the DM anyway.

As for the cost of buying starmetal, it can't be that expensive per RAW. Apparently any weapon is +5000 gp, so even if we assume a Medium weapon limit, 1/3 (raw materials for crafting) of 5000 gp for a 30 lbs goliath greathammer works out to around 55 gp per pound.

As for RAI, if they intended for the starmetal to cost 5000 gp a pound, they would have said so, and not casually suggest replacing it with, say, iron.

In any case, you could purchase most of the stuff to equal out the benefits (and keep your levels for other classes) for 60k.Not true.

***


Well, a DM who is annoyed by their GSA's DR will start bringing in NPCs with adamantine weapons, naturally, so it's kind of moot whether NPCs pre-built in the book have them.If a petty DM wants you dead, you're dead. It's kind of moot whether he uses specially equipped NPCs or "rocks fall, you die."

[Iku Rex]

When I play a melee build finding ways to use PA with regularity and reliability is kind of integral to being a useful part of the team, either uping the mobility with ToB and feats or choosing races that can use pounce or using reach weaponry or whatever.This ^ doesn't make any sense. How is it impossible for the GSA to use Power Attack? Mobility? What does pounce and reach weapons have to do with anything? :smallconfused:


The bonus hit points aren't as much as you'd get from a decent HD class and a frount liners Con bonus, add on that the usual methods of regaining hp (the fastest lost resource if you want to tank) can't be used on a GSA.No, you don't get as many HPs, and I believe I've already addressed this. DR, AC, miss chance, temporary hit points, arcane healing.


The Big advantage is turning into a construct, with all its immunities. most of these can be acheived with the Undead, Plant or Elemental types which are easier to get into without using class levels (or there are classes that don't lose as much to get there), if you add in LA buy-off its a whole lot easier to get hold of immunity to crits, or stunning, or poison without taking up ten levels.What? "You could get some of the abilities by playing a freak race with LA" is hardly an indication that a class is underpowered.

Now, Warforged. Give them adamantine body and add fortification and they'll have most of what GSA gets without giving up Con, positive energy healing, ten levels or their touch AC.Like I said, going warforged means giving up racial benefits of another +0 LA race. And you don't get "most of what a GSA gets". A warforged needs 9 feats to get DR 10/adamantine, and then you're stuck in heavy armor. Another feat for immunity to nonlethal damage. Another for being able to cast without ASF. (Not normally possible with Adamantine Body though.) Another for full fortification. And then you still don't have immunity to death effects, necromancy effects, ability damage, ability drain and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects, or is harmless. Warforged also don't get Darkvision and Low-Light Vision.

-1.5 touch AC is not "giving up their touch AC". That's just silly.

Besides, Adamantine Body or Full Plate limits your Dex to AC to +1. Clearly fighter-types in heavy armor are unplayable because of this. (Right?)


Now each of these has their drawbacks and I'm not arguing that GSA isn't fun fluff or useless, just that there are more effective builds that either give much the same benefits or give much the same fluff with less cost.The existence of "more effective builds" does not prove that a PrC isn't reasonably balanced.


And Touch AC becomes more important as you go up the levels, by the time you get to high ones it is almost the only one that matters since keeping up AC to the things that you're facings attack routine gets more and more expensive but Touch AC can still be useful against casters in some situations (note some, since true strike pretty much overturns that one), generally against divine casters that don't get it or sorcs that can't quicken it.Regular AC remains relevant all the way to level 20. To avoid touch attacks you want a miss chance effect, and as a partial Sor/Wiz caster a GSA has numerous options in so regard. If you're really worried for some reason, prepare scintillating scales (SpC) and turn your natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus.

[mostlyharmful]

"This ^ doesn't make any sense. How is it impossible for the GSA to use Power Attack? Mobility? What does pounce and reach weapons have to do with anything? :smallconfused: "

You said that the Str bonus evens out with the lost BAB. I said it didn't since your damage output drops without PA usage. You said using PA means you can't hit anything and makes itterative attacks useless. I mention a few options to get your PA and full attack in. Most of them are feat intensive which the GSA doesn't have many of, or ToB manuvers which the GSA doesn't get. With reach or a race with flight or items that improve mobility you can almost always get itterative attacks in on things that don't have ludicrous defenses (everything short of BBEG). How is that confusing?


"No, you don't get as many HPs, and I believe I've already addressed this. DR, AC, miss chance, temporary hit points, arcane healing. "

The damage reduction is easily bypassed, I've already covered that. If you're tanking and are solid green and are known to have been collecting starmetal smart or informed people are going to know what you are and react accordingly. The miss chance and temporary hit points and boosted AC can all be picked up by any other tank at the same cost so that proves nothing about the class. And Arcane healing? Sorcs won't have that as one of their spells known, so its either you knowing it (and you're only a half caster or worse remember so you can't chuck around nearly as many castings of it as a cleric can cures), you get a party wizard to mem lots of repair spells (good luck, there's a metric tonne of better things for them to prepare all of which are more fun for the player), you get hold of a casting cohort (good luck in most games and you're still gimping your caster on their choices) or you get it through items... that nobody else can use.. good luck getting the rest of the party to chip in on those.



"What? "You could get some of the abilities by playing a freak race with LA" is hardly an indication that a class is underpowered. "


This class is about turning into a freak, surely the player has no problem with it. And Necropolitan isn't a race so you don't drop the benefits of a +0 race (of which Human is the only one that has benefits that really scale to matter by the time you take all 10 levels of GSA).


"Like I said, going warforged means giving up racial benefits of another +0 LA race. And you don't get "most of what a GSA gets". A warforged needs 9 feats to get DR 10/adamantine, and then you're stuck in heavy armor. Another feat for immunity to nonlethal damage. Another for being able to cast without ASF. (Not normally possible with Adamantine Body though.) Another for full fortification. And then you still don't have immunity to death effects, necromancy effects, ability damage, ability drain and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects, or is harmless. Warforged also don't get Darkvision and Low-Light Vision. "


I said most. And what they miss can be made up with Deathward and a couple feats. Warforged are +0 so of course they aren't going to have as much as a class gives them over TEN levels, the point is that they start within shouting distance of where GSA goes and there are more effective options than taking a half BAB/ Half casting class to get there. If you check the previous page my suggestion for beefing up the living construct template, homebrewing a high level spell or whatever to turn the caster into it and requiring some random gumph spell components is exactly the same flavour but you end up with a low LA adjustment that can be bought off not ten levels of subpar class. Of course that depends on the DM and negotiating but so does using PrC in the first place.




"-1.5 touch AC is not "giving up their touch AC". That's just silly.

Besides, Adamantine Body or Full Plate limits your Dex to AC to +1. Clearly fighter-types in heavy armor are unplayable because of this. (Right?)"

Fighter-types in heavy armour with either full BAB and lots of feats, Manovuers from ToB or full casting are playable. A mix of them are very playable. I'm just saying a GSA lacks for uite a lot after ten levels of half casting and half BAB and no bonus feats.


"The existence of "more effective builds" does not prove that a PrC isn't reasonably balanced. "


It certainly doesn't prove its good either. Or that the same fluff can be acheived without costing so much. Or that the immunities provided can't be got anouther way. And its "effectiveness" defends on the DM and the other players using the same amount of optimization, if its getting flattened or ignored every combat then it isn't all that balanced. And it's very easy to make a party that optimizes past a GSA, just include a full caster that knows what they're doing and a full BAB tank with a method of delivering full attacks while PA.


"Regular AC remains relevant all the way to level 20. To avoid touch attacks you want a miss chance effect, and as a partial Sor/Wiz caster a GSA has numerous options in so regard. If you're really worried for some reason, prepare scintillating scales (SpC) and turn your natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus."


Good point. Although my experiance is that regular AC becomes more and more about insulating you from mooks than about being useful in a real CR appropriate fight. Half casting isn't enough to match up to other Gishes in terms of providing self buffs though, and that's the best you're able to acheive (and bye-bye BAB if you do)

[Iku Rex]

You said that the Str bonus evens out with the lost BAB. I said it didn't since your damage output drops without PA usage. You said using PA means you can't hit anything and makes itterative attacks useless. I mention a few options to get your PA and full attack in. Most of them are feat intensive which the GSA doesn't have many of, or ToB manuvers which the GSA doesn't get. With reach or a race with flight or items that improve mobility you can almost always get itterative attacks in on things that don't have ludicrous defenses (everything short of BBEG). How is that confusing?It is confusing because you seem to think an extra iterative attack somehow makes a little extra damage from Power Attack more important, when in fact it makes a good AB more valuable, suggesting less Power Attack.


The damage reduction is easily bypassed, I've already covered that. The damage reduction is not easily bypassed, I've already covered that. Let me refresh your memory:

Monsters very rarely have adamantine weapons. There is a single monster in the MM with an adamantine weapon - the CR 21 titan. Not one of the NPCs in the DMG has an adamantine melee weapon. (There are a few adamantine arrows.)

Based on my experience with several different DMs and several different high level campaigns, adamantine weapons are not that common. PCs don't matter of course, unless you're doing an evil PvP campaign or something.


If you're tanking and are solid green and are known to have been collecting starmetal smart or informed people are going to know what you are and react accordingly.You're assuming a significant number of opponents will:

1. Know about the GSA and consider him a serious threat.
2. Expect to get into melee with him.
3. Know that the rare and unusual Green Star Adepts are vulnerable to adamantine.
4. Have access to admantine weapons.
5. Be able to afford admantine weapons.

That seems very unreasonable to me, and smacks of petty DM metagaming.


The miss chance and temporary hit points and boosted AC can all be picked up by any other tank at the same cost so that proves nothing about the class.Any tank can cast greater mirror image? Blink? Displacement? Greater invisibility? And get temporary hit points from heart of earth? News to me...

Furthermore, hit points and AC are not of equal value no matter what. A GSA benefits more from a feat like Improved Toughness and a high AC than, say, a dwarven warblade with maxed Con.

And Arcane healing? Sorcs won't have that as one of their spells known, so its either you knowing it (and you're only a half caster or worse remember so you can't chuck around nearly as many castings of it as a cleric can cures), you get a party wizard to mem lots of repair spells (good luck, there's a metric tonne of better things for them to prepare all of which are more fun for the player), you get hold of a casting cohort (good luck in most games and you're still gimping your caster on their choices) or you get it through items... that nobody else can use.. good luck getting the rest of the party to chip in on those.Wait, what? You don't need the "party wizard" to memorize lots of repair spells, because you are a wizard and you just need a wand for out-of-combat healing and a few big hitters, prepared or in scrolls, for emergencies. (If you're really worried about losing HPs, that is.)

This class is about turning into a freak, surely the player has no problem with it.You were arguing that the benefits from the GSA are easily duplicated. (By items actually, but you seem to have discreetly abandoned that claim.) Playing obscure monsters with a level adjustment or equivalent doesn't really count as easy in my book.

And Necropolitan isn't a race so you don't drop the benefits of a +0 race (of which Human is the only one that has benefits that really scale to matter by the time you take all 10 levels of GSA). In order to be a necroplitan you must lose a level and 1000 XP. You are also tortured for 24h before the evil gods let you become an undead monstrosity. Again, not exactly easy.

It certainly doesn't prove its good either. Or that the same fluff can be acheived without costing so much. Or that the immunities provided can't be got anouther way. And its "effectiveness" defends on the DM and the other players using the same amount of optimization, if its getting flattened or ignored every combat then it isn't all that balanced. And it's very easy to make a party that optimizes past a GSA, just include a full caster that knows what they're doing and a full BAB tank with a method of delivering full attacks while PA.
If you can contribute meaningfully to defeating CR appropriate opponents you have a reasonably balanced character. The potential existence of some twinked out Frenzied Berserker exploiting Leap Attack and Shock Trooper with pounce and rhino's rush changes nothing.

Can you give an example of a build with what you consider to be the minimum usefulness required for a melee character in order to be "reasonably balanced"?

Doesn't look like TS is coming back to answer questions, so let's say all WotC books and 32 PB.

[Bleen]

The damage reduction is not easily bypassed, I've already covered that. Let me refresh your memory:

Monsters very rarely have adamantine weapons. There is a single monster in the MM with an adamantine weapon - the CR 21 titan. Not one of the NPCs in the DMG has an adamantine melee weapon. (There are a few adamantine arrows.)
I cast fireball. Looks like I just bypassed your DR there, chief.

[Solo]

You're assuming a significant number of opponents will:

1. Know about the GSA and consider him a serious threat.
2. Expect to get into melee with him.
3. Know that the rare and unusual Green Star Adepts are vulnerable to adamantine.
4. Have access to admantine weapons.
5. Be able to afford admantine weapons.

That seems very unreasonable to me, and smacks of petty DM metagaming.

Ladies and gentlemen, the result of a successful Bardic Knowledge check.



Any tank can cast greater mirror image? Blink? Displacement? Greater invisibility? And get temporary hit points from heart of earth? News to me...

You know what's better than a tank who casts spells? A tank who casts spells without losing 5 caster levels.


In order to be a necroplitan you must lose a level and 1000 XP. You are also tortured for 24h before the evil gods let you become an undead monstrosity. Again, not exactly easy.

Hey, if you can drop the star metal requirement, we can re-flavor the Necropolitan fluff.

Losing a level and 1000 XP is still better than losing 5 caster levels.


If you can contribute meaningfully to defeating CR appropriate opponents you have a reasonably balanced character.

Show us that a GSA can reasonably contribute.

[Aquillion]

Ladies and gentlemen, the result of a successful Bardic Knowledge check.To be fair, bardic knowledge doesn't work that way (it's used for specific people, items, or places -- legendary things, not general classes of people.) Of course, this just means that GSA would be covered by a simple "Knowledge (arcana)" check instead.

But in any case... going back to the differences between a GSA and a wizard 5/fighter 5, and keeping in mind that wizard 5/fighter 5 is a basically unplayable build:

+6 unnamed bonus to Str
-3 penalty to Dex (bad)
DR 10/adamantine
darkvision
low-light vision
+6 natural armor
+5 caster level
Immunity to poison, drowning, suffocation, starvation, thirst, sleep effects, fatigue, exhaustion, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects, or is harmless.
Can be healed by arcane repair spells.
Cannot be healed by traditional healing spells
+20 hit points as construct
Con nonability (bad for HPs and Fort save)One very big disadvantage was left out, which I have inserted in bold. As others have noted, it can be a crippling flaw -- since (almost) nobody spontaneously casts repair spells, that means you're going to have to waste your already-limited spell slots on repair, or the valuable WBL that you already wasted on advancing in GSA in the first place.

Even with that, I'll grant that I used a bit of hyperbole. The GSA might be somewhat better than wiz 5 / fighter 5... but the differences aren't enough to matter, and in its core role, the things it does to help its party handle encounters, it is almost exactly in the same range of effectiveness (ie nearly unplayable). Look at those abilities. Notice something about them?

With the exception of the CL, darkvision, low-light vision, and +6 str they're all defensive. Purely defensive abilities, not to put a fine point on it, well, they suck. They can be all right if added to an already-effective character, but you can't base your role around them. Giving up CL, BAB, or feats for purely defensive abilities is not a good idea, especially when you're getting two horribly nasty disadvantages (lost con bonus, no normal magical healing) in the process.

You could have fun with a GSA, sure, depending on the game. But overall it's a very, very weak class, with poor design that gives it no useful area of expertise. If you're in a class with a full wizard, you'll be completely over by them in terms of casting. If you're in a class with a full fighter, you'll be completely overshadowed by them in melee (and your extra defense won't help you when you can't accept the healing ability the rest of your party actually uses.) On top of that, you can't cast effectively in armor unless you use some other trick to get that ability (and the proficiencies) -- so your defense will actually be crippled, especially when you take into account the loss of dex (important for an unarmored character.)

And even if you think you're going to be a jack of all trades, forget it. You can only use one 'side' of your abilities at once, and GSA (unlike, say, duskblade or swiftblade) does nothing to help with that limitation. Each turn, you'll have the option to be a weak fighter or a weak caster. You can buff yourself... if you always have several rounds before combat to do it, which you won't. And if you don't save those slots for repairing yourself, which means you'll probably be wasting WBL on basic healing between fights. And even then, there are overwhelmingly better options in core to do the same thing (the Eldritch Knight) which are, themselves, not considered particularly powerful.

[Solo]

Bards might know stories about the star metal and stuff.

And K. Arcana would definitely cover it, yes.

[Eldritch_Ent]

What about the rule that a monster counts as a weapon that can break it's own Damage Resistance? If that applies here, any monster with DR/Adamantine or better could break through I'd think...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

What about the rule that a monster counts as a weapon that can break it's own Damage Resistance? If that applies here, any monster with DR/Adamantine or better could break through I'd think...

Indeed, often overlooked rule there. So add in all the monsters with DR adamantium, all the monsters that don't do physical damage, and all the NPCs that might for whatever reason (IE not being incompetent like DMG NPCs "But no DMG NPC memorizes Black Tentacles so I should never have to face that spell in a game.") have adamantium weapons.

I mean, it's not DR/magic or anything really ****ty, but if we are going through the trouble of casting Heart of Earth, then we can already get DR adamantium anyway.

GSA is "defensive" in the sense that it defends against all those things that almost never come up at the expense of sucking at the things that do.

Lose: HP/Healing/AC-relative to a fighter/damage relative to a fighter/casting relative to a caster.
Gain: A bunch of very situational immunities that are better done by spells or a +0 LA race.

And to top it all off, you get to pay money to have this privilege.

No thanks, I'll avoid that garbage and play something only minorly crappy like Eldritch knight.

[JaxGaret]

A Truenamer might actually be improved by going into GSA.

But that's hardly a consolation.

[Talic]

What do you mean it "focuses on HPs"? The DR 10/admantine will take off 10 damage from most melee attacks. If you don't think that and the +20 construct HPs is enough, Improved Toughness (CWar), and temporary hit points from heart of earth (CMag) and an amulet of tears (MIC) should add more survivability. A GSA also has an excellent base for a high AC with the natural armor and arcane AC buffs.


DR 10/adamantine will help, yes, versus melee. However, if you had a modest 14 Con, then by the time you've taken 15 levels of this class, you've lost out on 10 HP from con alone (after that 20 hp boost), not counting low HD type for classes in this build. That's crippling, as most of a decent wizard's HP generally comes from Con. I mean, let's assume that the wizard at level 12, starts dropping a daily Bear's Endurance on himself, to shore up HP's. That's an etra 2 hp/hd on top of the previous numbers. Now, at level 15, we're 40 hp behind. How does that stack up? Against magic? Not well. Against high damage melee? Not well. Note that this is all without magic items.

[mostlyharmful]

"It is confusing because you seem to think an extra iterative attack somehow makes a little extra damage from Power Attack more important, when in fact it makes a good AB more valuable, suggesting less Power Attack. "

Shock trooper. or Ghost strike. or a Brilliant energy weapon.


"The damage reduction is not easily bypassed, I've already covered that. Let me refresh your memory"


See some of the above posters. I've never played with the DMG NPCs as witten, and any weapon over about a +2 or +3 whenever I or any other player bothers to invest that much money we tend to do it on a weapon with a special material. Is it such a stretch to imagine NPCs do the same? Oh, and I hadn't forgotten, I just disgree. There is a difference.


"Based on my experience with several different DMs and several different high level campaigns, adamantine weapons are not that common"


Well, it seems we've just had different experiances of high level play.


"You're assuming a significant number of opponents will:"

1. have an intelligence score
2. pay attention to the world around them and the famous people in it that might challenge them at some point in the future
3. invest in skill ranks
4. have some money to spend on a weapon by the time they're challenging a high level PC in a party of high level PCs
5. Invest money in a superior material weapon rather than in a steel one without an immediate, pressing motivation to do so beyound having a better sword.

Yes. Yes I am.


"Any tank can cast greater mirror image? Blink? Displacement? Greater invisibility? And get temporary hit points from heart of earth? News to me... "


Items. I said they can be picked up at the same cost, sorry, I should have said they can be picked up through items for a higher gp cost and a much, much lower cost than ten frickin levels.....


"A GSA benefits more from a feat like Improved Toughness and a high AC than, say, a dwarven warblade with maxed Con. "


No. They pick up the same benefit from the same feat and it's just that the GSA has less of what the feat had to start with. And so will have less at the end not to mention not getting a d12 hit dice and manuvers.


"You don't need the "party wizard" to memorize lots of repair spells, because you are a wizard and you just need a wand for out-of-combat healing and a few big hitters, prepared or in scrolls, for emergencies"


As I said before. You are a half caster at best. If you want to pack in all these self buffs (subpar with what a full caster would use as self buffs at that level but oh well), you won't have room to pack in enough Repair spells to make up for you tanking it with no big way to shut down the opposition at that level since you're damage output is well below what a tanks should be at this stage, you can't control the fight with spells and you don't have the feats to build a good reach weapon using trip fighter.


"You were arguing that the benefits from the GSA are easily duplicated. (By items actually, but you seem to have discreetly abandoned that claim.)"


More effeciently than by taking ten levels yes. And I still am saying they can be duplicated for the most part, just because I don't continually reitterate a point doesn't mean I've dropped it. Replacing them with items gets pricey but its possible for most of them, spells and creature type changes are obviously more effecient but you can do it both ways.


"Playing obscure monsters with a level adjustment or equivalent doesn't really count as easy in my book."

Warforged? Necropolitan? neither of them are obscure. I mentioned Volodni as a plant race because I wanted to round out the three closest types not because they're esspecially essential to the arguement. Ok, try this. Find a way to change type into Undead, construct, plant or Elemental. you'll get many of the same benefits without using ten levels to do it. Oh, and like I said the OP is already trying to turn into a living statue, I think they're fine with reasonably obscure don't you.


"In order to be a necroplitan you must lose a level and 1000 XP. You are also tortured for 24h before the evil gods let you become an undead monstrosity. Again, not exactly easy."

Refluff. and again it's easier than slogging through ten levels. And due to the self correcting way XP works losing a level is a far FAR better way of picking up a creature type than anything with LA. It's also a good base model for trying to introduce a change of creature type in a game, just have them contact emmisaries of Mechanus and placate them with the ulimate fuel source of green star metal or whatever.


"If you can contribute meaningfully to defeating CR appropriate opponents you have a reasonably balanced character"


Yes, I'll agree with that with the small proviso that we add "to the same extent as the other members of your team" after the meaningfully. If you're being ignored by all and sundry because the rest of the party doesn't need you it really doesn't matter if you are theoretically equivalent to how WotC tried to balance their system. As in all things context is king.


"Can you give an example of a build with what you consider to be the minimum usefulness required for a melee character in order to be "reasonably balanced"? "


Like terrorism and good pornography I'm afraid I have to say "I'll know it when I see it". Since what is and isn't effective is entirely dependant on group playstyle and DM technique an always effective build is impossible to produce beyound Wiz20 or Cleric20. I'm sure there are some games where a GSA won't be horribly underpowered, heck there's some where they'll own. But in most I've heard of and all the games I've played in they'll be lagging at the back if they're even a factor at all.

[Person_Man]

The Necropolitan template (Libris Mortis) turns you into an undead, without changing your alignment. You're still animated by negative energy, though.

Bonded Summoner (Miniatures Handbook) or Elemental Savant turns you into an Elemental. I'm pretty sure they live for thousands of years.

Its also worth mentioning that you can just constantly have a friend or trusted servant reincarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=4164322) you. You might end up as a bugbear, but hey, at least you won't be old.

[Coplantor]

I think that this thread has trascended it's original purpose and is now a class thread, but I've seen a lot of good arguments, both against and in favor of the class. I dont really want the character to cast a lot, but I'd rather want him to focus mostly on melee and probably on skills, having spells just as a secondary feaure and the facto of being a construct as a main one.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I think that this thread has trascended it's original purpose and is now a class thread, but I've seen a lot of good arguments, both against and in favor of the class. I dont really want the character to cast a lot, but I'd rather want him to focus mostly on melee and probably on skills, having spells just as a secondary feaure and the facto of being a construct as a main one.

Sounds like a Warforged Factotum is what you want.

[Iku Rex]

I'm going to post an example character at level 16 (since everyone insists on evaluating the GSA solely on its 10th level ability). That should cover some of the objections here. But I have to reply to a couple of posts as well.


One very big disadvantage was left out, which I have inserted in bold. As others have noted, it can be a crippling flaw -- since (almost) nobody spontaneously casts repair spells, that means you're going to have to waste your already-limited spell slots on repair, or the valuable WBL that you already wasted on advancing in GSA in the first place.The earliest you can get to GSA 10 is level 15. Your WBL is 200 000 gp, and you can scribe your own scrolls if you want. I hardly think the cost of some repair scrolls and a couple of wands of repair light damage will be crippling, even when you subtract the 10*1000 gp (maybe a little more) starmetal infusions. Being able to heal yourself in combat is quite useful. Not every campaign has a dedicated healbot.

***


What about the rule that a monster counts as a weapon that can break it's own Damage Resistance? If that applies here, any monster with DR/Adamantine or better could break through I'd think...There's no such rule.

[Iku Rex]

Here's a build and an example character at level 16. It could use some more work, but it should provide a basis for discussion. I apologize in advance for any slip ups - there are a lot of numbers involved. Please ask if I haven't explained something well enough. (I suspect I'm rambling a little here and there.)

1 Warblade1 Power Attack, Improved Toughness (CWar)
2 Wizard 1
3 Fighter 1 Combat Casting, Combat Expertise
4 Wizard 2
5 Warblade 2
6 GSA (CArc) 1 Somatic Weaponry (CMag)
7 GSA 2
8 Spellsword (CWar) 1
9 GSA 3 Practiced Spellcaster (CArc)
10 GSA 4
11 GSA 5
12 GSA 6 Extend Spell
13 GSA 7
14 GSA 8
15 GSA 9 Martial Study: Action Before Thought (ToB)
16 GSA 10
17 AbChmp (CMag) 1
18 AbChmp 2 Eschew Materials
19 AbChmp 2
20 AbChmp 4

You can push the level 10 GSA back to character level 20, where it may never see play. (Not that campaigns from 1-16 are common either.) But I've put it at a lower character level on the assumption that the player wants it quickly.

There are other possibilities for feats of course - Minor Shapeshift (CMag) might be a good one at higher levels if the DM allows polymorph spells. I get the impression most don't. Able Learner (RacDest) is helpful for more skills.

Warblade maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind, Action Before Though, Emerald Razor
Stance: Stonefoot Stance

Ability scores (32 pb):
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 8

+3 Str, +1 Dex levels

A higher Con won't hurt. You'll spend more time playing the character with a Con than without after all. But it offends my optimization instincts to put lots of points in a stat that will eventually become obsolete. :smallsmile:

Items:
51100 +4 Twilight (MIC 15) Mithral Githcraft (DMGII) Full Plate of Speed
4100 Armbands of Might (MIC 72)
1500 2x Wand of Repair Light Wounds
2000 Gloves of Fortunate Striking (MIC 125)
10000 Third Eye Concentrate (MIC 141)
5000 Vampire Torc (MIC 144
2000 Headband of Conscious Effort (MIC 109)
18000 +3 deflection
36000 +6 Str
4000 +2 Dex
4000 +2 Int
4000 +2 Wis
16000 +4 resistance
10000 Skin of Power Dampening (MIC171)
6000 Robe of the Vagabond (CCHa 141, Torso)
5000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
11315 +1 Frost Adamantine Heavy Flail
3000 Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault (MIC 64)
5000 Boots of Swift Passage (MIC 78)
4000 Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispelling)
6250 Aureon's Spellshard (ECS 256)
6000 Ring of Anticipation (DotU 100)
12000 Mantle of Second Chances (MIC 115)
3000 Lesser Rod of Extend Spell
8000 Sold Con item
10000 special infusions

247265
12735 Left (misc, scrolls)


This is a Magic Item Compendium-heavy list. I've avoided combination items like "boots of swift passage and translocation". Without the MIC, you get bigger standard bonuses and fewer gadgets. It's not quite fine-tuned (too heavy on defense I think), but it should give people an idea of what a 16th level character can afford.

Didn't buy floaty mithral feycraft shield since he's taking Abjurant Champion levels later.

Spells usually prepared:

Level 8 Wizard casting, caster level 16, Int 18

1 (4+1+2): 3x Nerveskitter (SpC), 3x Shield*, True Strike
2 (3+1+2): Fuse Arms (SpC), 3x Wraithstrike, 2x Heroics (SpC)
3 (3+1+2): 2x Extended Wraithstrike, Blink, Dragonskin, Haste, Heroism, Girallon's Blessing (SpC)
4 (2+1+2): 2x Greater Mirror Image (PHBII), Heart of Earth (CMag), Extended Greater Mighty Wallop (RacDrg), Extended Greater Magic Weapon
* Extended with Rod

Scrolls: Invisibility, See Invisible, Fly, Prot from Energy, repair spells

The spells are prepared with the (usually safe) assumption that many of them can be cast before combat begins. The scroll list (not necessarily complete) is for spells that are sometimes useful, but that aren't worth casting in every battle.

(I've left out fly from the standard list because I don't like that spells for flavor reasons. You're a strong, hard, melee machine ... fluttering back and forth in the sky. :smallsigh: )

Wraithstrike may get banned in some campaigns, but there are plenty more good spells around to replace it.

The numbers, given a typical dungeoncrawl situation with long duration buffs and haste active:

AC:
10
+12 armor
+3 Dex
+1 luck
+1 insight
+6 nat arm GSA
+5 nat arm dragonskin
+3 deflect
+1 haste
+4 shield
= 46 (+ expertise, +2 stonefoot stance)

Str (melee)
18
+6 GSA
+6 Item
+4 Fuse Arms
=34 Str (+12/+18)

AB
14 BAB
-2 PA
+12 Str
+2 heroism
+4 greater magic weapon
+1 haste
=+31/+31/+26/+21

Damage:
6d8 weapon
+4 GMW
+4 PA/armbands
+18 Str
+2d6 frost, acid
= 53+7 average damage per hit
+20 if full power attack

Average hit points: 12+2,5+2,5+5,5+6,5+11*4,5= 78,5 + 20 (construct) + 16 (Improved Toughness) = 114 HPs +30 temporary hit points from heart of earth.

(Not a lot, but he won't be killed by a falling leaf either.)

In play:
Offensively the character has plenty to contribute. He has a good attack bonus, and can strip many opponents of most of their AC with wraithstrike, Emerald Razor and maybe blink. Thanks to high Strength and a 6d8 weapon the damage is usually enough to force a death from massive damage save on every hit.

With true strike and maybe an Improved Disarm from heroics, he can grab an adamantine weapon from the hands of an enemy who proves difficult to deal with.

Defensively, can boost his AC to a respectable level, even compared to high level attack bonuses. DR will usually take off 10 damage if they do hit. Add blink and/or greater mirror image if it gets hairy. Those spells can also help defend against (ranged) touch spells. Area effects are dealt with through a good reflex save (concentration skill), Skin of Power Dampening or plain energy resistance of some sort (dragonskin, scroll, other caster).

The Vampire Torc means he can get hit points back by hitting an opponent - probably using Emerald Razor or the second round of a wraithstrike spell to max Power Attack.

I've given him a good initiative (+3, +5 nerveskitter, +4 Improved Initiative from heroics, roll twice thanks to ring) since the Concentration-for-save abilities and other immediate actions arguably require you to win initiative before you can use them.

[Aquillion]

I think that this thread has trascended it's original purpose and is now a class thread, but I've seen a lot of good arguments, both against and in favor of the class. I dont really want the character to cast a lot, but I'd rather want him to focus mostly on melee and probably on skills, having spells just as a secondary feaure and the facto of being a construct as a main one.Well, to get back to the main topic... while we could argue about class balance all day, one thing the GSA definitely isn't any good at is skills. They get only 2 skill points a level, a bad skill list, and no special abilities to help them in that direction... they're just not intended to be a skill-monkey class, and are about as bad at it as it's possible for a PC class to be. Their only saving grace is that they can be int-based casters, but that won't make them good at skills when they have nothing really worthwhile on their class list. (I suppose you could start out as a human with Able Learner and your first level in Rogue or Factotum or something if you really wanted to. That'd let you use the skill points from that int more effectively, and the +1 skill point a level from human would help make up for the 2 per level. With that, any human build can be a skill-monkey.)

Warforged factotum does sound like a good idea if you don't mind being a warforged; factotums can be quite good in melee if you use Iaijutsu Focus (which not every DM will allow; check with yours first.) One problem, though, is that they tend to be rogue-good and not barbarian-good; they're good at rushing the opponent and doing a whole bunch of damage at once using what is basically sneak attack mechanics, not so much at trading hits.

Another option is a warforged (or otherwise construct) ranger; you could use the urban ranger varient or whatever it's called if you don't like the wilderness theme. They get full BAB, decent skill points + skill list + some abilities that support them, some combat feats (sadly, TWF or ranged combat, neither of which are the best options for melee), and some spellcasting.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

And now to get an accurate representation of the GSA class instead of just your optimization skills, replace all GSA levels with Eldritch knight levels. What do you get? A character that's twice as good.

Seriously, a Wriathstriking Warblade/Wizard/Abjurant Champion is your evidence for a GSA being decent?

[Starbuck_II]

***

There's no such rule.

Hmm, your right:
Only /Magic, /Aligned, and /Epic DR makes your natural attacks that type.
Weird, not the metal types.

[Iku Rex]

And now to get an accurate representation of the GSA class instead of just your optimization skills, replace all GSA levels with Eldritch knight levels. What do you get? A character that's twice as good.Different? Yes. More powerful? Probably. Twice as good? Hardly.

Yes, high level buffs can be very good. But like I said, the presence of more powerful characters do not make all "lesser" characters unplayable. Replace the GSA levels with fighter. Is the character still "twice as good"?

Seriously, a Wriathstriking Warblade/Wizard/Abjurant Champion is your evidence for a GSA being decent?I knew I'd get this response. If I'd posted a plain vanilla build I would promptly have gotten a complaints about how weak the character was compared to "better" characters, proving that GSAs are brokenly underpowered.

I chose a more optimized version to back up the second part of the statement that made everyone jump on me - a green star adept "can be powerful if played right". Wraithstrike is just one of many benefits granted by the supposedly negligible arcane spellcaster levels.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Yes, high level buffs can be very good. But like I said, the presence of more powerful characters do not make all "lesser" characters unplayable. Replace the GSA levels with fighter. Is the character still "twice as good"?

Take away Wraithstrike and a Fighter 16 is better. Not twice as good, but still better.

[Iku Rex]

filler
Take away Wraithstrike and a Fighter 16 is better. Not twice as good, but still better.Show me.

[Aquillion]

Different? Yes. More powerful? Probably. Twice as good? Hardly.

Yes, high level buffs can be very good. But like I said, the presence of more powerful characters do not make all "lesser" characters unplayable. Replace the GSA levels with fighter. Is the character still "twice as good"?
I knew I'd get this response. If I'd posted a plain vanilla build I would promptly have gotten a complaints about how weak the character was compared to "better" characters, proving that GSAs are brokenly underpowered.But we're talking Eldritch Knight here. Eldritch Knight was one of the early composite class PRCs, when WotC was still iffy about them; it itself is fairly underpowered, to the point where multiple classes that are nearly strictly better than it have been published (and even those are generally only considered decent, not powerful.)

When the GSA's role in your build is almost strictly dominated by an Eldritch Knight, then all you've managed to prove is that the GSA is weak. Show us a build where Eldritch Knight is not overwhelmingly better and we'll be impressed.

[Iku Rex]

But we're talking Eldritch Knight here. Eldritch Knight was one of the early composite class PRCs, when WotC was still iffy about them; it itself is fairly underpowered, to the point where multiple classes that are nearly strictly better than it have been published (and even those are generally only considered decent, not powerful.).Nonsense. The EK is a very strong class. Melee mages were quite powerful already in 3.0, and in 3.5 they got a major boost with the eldritch knight. The reason some see it as sub-par is that they use it to play a blaster or a batman who enters melee with his longsword, and that's not how it's best used.

I seriously hope you're not talking about the Abjurant Champion when you say "decent, not powerful" - it's blatantly overpowered. (I picked it to fill out my build above for a reason. :smalltongue: )


When the GSA's role in your build is almost strictly dominated by an Eldritch Knight, then all you've managed to prove is that the GSA is weak. Show us a build where Eldritch Knight is not overwhelmingly better and we'll be impressed.An EK is not "overhwelmingly better". And once again, full casters are not the end all be all of DnD balance. You can have a reasonably balanced and fun character without the ultimate power of high level spells.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Fighter 16: Race: Orc? I don't know. Then Necropolitian.

Feats:Power Attack/Exoctic Weapon Spiked Chain/Combat Reflexes/Improved Bullrush/Improved Sunder/Dodge/Mobility/Shocktrooper/Combat Brute/Elusive Target/Leap Attack/Battle Charger/Combat Expertise/Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit/Improved Toughness

Starting stats 32:

Str 18
Dex 16
Con 8
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

Add racials and WBL. Buy some decent items from DMG and MiC.

Get a +1 Valorous Spiked Chain. Go to town. Also get yourself Spell-Stitched with a few Harms.

Ideally, if I was taking the time, I'd find the feat that let's undead use Cha instead of Con for HP, drop some feats, grab a two level Paladin dip, and pump up Charisma, grab Force of Personality if I really care.

HP: More then you.
Damage: Way more then you.
Immunities: More then you.
Combat options: More then you.
Skills: More then enough to grab a couple bonuses that I don't need, could even cross class UMD if I was going the Charisma route.
AC: Worse then you, but since I can negate power attack, and attack back twice for each attack against me, not so concerned about it.

That's without any buffs. Toss a few Greater Magic Weapons my way, or some other nice buffs, and I'm doing just fine. I can also be healed better then you by the party.

That's without even bothering to find a nice dip class to compare to your Warblade levels (Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian comes to mind) or otherwise twink out the character. He does exactly what a GSA does, only better.

[Solo]

Nonsense. The EK is a very strong class. Melee mages were quite powerful already in 3.0, and in 3.5 they got a major boost with the eldritch knight. The reason some see it as sub-par is that they use it to play a blaster or a batman who enters melee with his longsword, and that's not how it's best used.

An EK is not "overhwelmingly better". And once again, full casters are not the end all be all of DnD balance. You can have a reasonably balanced and fun character without the ultimate power of high level spells.

In your opinion, of course.

[Coplantor]

Can anyone give me the stats of the Warforged?

[Collin152]

Can anyone give me the stats of the Warforged?

Legally?
Almost certainly not.

[Coplantor]

Yea, I forgot that, is there any legal webpage with those stats? probably not buy it does'nt hurt to ask, untill the spooky wizard who lives by the coast casts fireball and summon lawyer IX.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Meh, they took levels of Malconvoker, and so they can just cast Summon Lawyer VIII and get two.

[Coplantor]

Argh, those filthy b... Ehem, those filthy bst... OK, something is not letting me say that th wi... WIZARD WHO LIVES BY THE COAST IS AN EXCELENT PERSON WHO WONT CAST CHARM PERSON TO MAKE PEOPLE POST WHATEVER HE WANTS... PLAY FOURTH EDITION...

Whoa, that felt strange...

[Collin152]

Argh, those filthy b... Ehem, those filthy bst... OK, something is not letting me say that th wi... WIZARD WHO LIVES BY THE COAST IS AN EXCELENT PERSON WHO WONT CAST CHARM PERSON TO MAKE PEOPLE POST WHATEVER HE WANTS... PLAY FOURTH EDITION...

Whoa, that felt strange...

*Mindrape*
"Everything is as it should be. You wish to purchase the Eberron campaign setting. Nothing is amiss. You will buy $80 worth of miniatures. There is no Wizard mafia."

[Aquillion]

Can anyone give me the stats of the Warforged?No, but a very detailed description of just about everything about the race aside from the stats is on the WotC website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050408b&page=1). That might be helpful.

[Coplantor]

I was just thinking... The description says that whenever the comet is seen, all the greenstar adepts rush towards it because the amount of metal you can find will only allow a few of them to reach the next stage of the transformation, wich means that it is highly probable that I met another GSA whose body is turning into star metal... So why cant I just make GSA soup instead of star metal soup to go up a level? can I extract the starmetal from his body?

[tyckspoon]

I was just thinking... The description says that whenever the comet is seen, all the greenstar adepts rush towards it because the amount of metal you can find will only allow a few of them to reach the next stage of the transformation, wich means that it is highly probable that I met another GSA whose body is turning into star metal... So why cant I just make GSA soup instead of star metal soup to go up a level? can I extract the starmetal from his body?

If you don't mind becoming Evil from the cannibalism, that'd probably work. DM's discretion as to what exactly you have to do to get at it, of course, but another Green Star Adept sounds like a valid source of starmetal to me.

[Collin152]

I was just thinking... The description says that whenever the comet is seen, all the greenstar adepts rush towards it because the amount of metal you can find will only allow a few of them to reach the next stage of the transformation, wich means that it is highly probable that I met another GSA whose body is turning into star metal... So why cant I just make GSA soup instead of star metal soup to go up a level? can I extract the starmetal from his body?

Ah, so the GSA's are like the Sith now?

[Fostire]

So why cant I just make GSA soup instead of star metal soup to go up a level? can I extract the starmetal from his body?

I think its time you admit it, you're an addict.