The most useless spells.

[Solo]

Glued to the spot = coup de grace. And blackbelt = 12th level or thereabouts, by what those folks can actually do. I refer you to this post:

Taking his word for it, and assuming he is accurate and unbiased, of course.

[hamishspence]

better to go with DMG 2 or Cityscape and assume a master fighter is like a master smith or master sage: 10th level. the best guy you would find on average in a city, but not the best guy in the country.

and yes, its not possible to perfectly translate game mechanics to real life. Hit points is partly to do with Luck, Narrative Immunity. a high level character doesn't so much shrug off injury, as much as he is just too lucky most of the time for his injuries to turn out serious. or, from a writing point of view, he's Mary Sue-ish: things almost never turn out disastrously for him.

RL example would be the person who survives a fall from a plane without major injury: in real life youed say he was lucky, in game you'd say he both had high hit points and rolled very low for damage.

[purplearcanist]

At low levels, though, you don't have Heal, and if you don't have any Cure spells, you won't last long in a dungeon crawl.

notice that I said most cure spells. Cure minor wounds and cure light wounds are the only useful ones, and even those are only useful at low levels.

[Chronos]

Eh, the fact that clerics can cast them spontaneously makes all of the cure spells at least somewhat worthwhile. If nothing else, at the end of the day you can burn off all of the spell slots you didn't need for other things, and save a few charges on your wand. And if you're seventh level and the party front-liner just got seriously hurt by a lucky critical, you have the option of dropping a Cure Critical Wounds. Not something you should plan around, but you don't have to.

[hamishspence]

Unless you're a LN cleric of Wee Jas, it which case, you're stuck, cos Wee Jas clerics who are neutral must rebuke and spontaneously convert inflict spells, not cure spells.

[Kurald Galain]

Can't we just agree that D&D doesn't mesh with real life and leave it at that?

Well, yes, that was my point to begin with.

[drengnikrafe]

On the topic of D&D and real life meshing poorly... Almost everybody has 1 level in an NPC race, and NONE OF US ARE ELITISTS. Remember, a stat of 18 is almost inhuman; the very pinacle of existance in the world. Maybe some of those people who are black belts have 3 levels in expert, and MAYBE 1 in monk, if that. They seem awesome only because we're not used to seeing stuff like that.

On the topic of wish... if you are extremely wordy and careful, you can create such a request that could not possibly be misunderstood or altered even by the trickiest of DMs, and take more then is limited by wish. All it takes is about a week of carefully going over what you have written for your wish to make sure it's completely flawless.

[TheCountAlucard]

On the topic of wish... if you are extremely wordy and careful, you can create such a request that could not possibly be misunderstood or altered even by the trickiest of DMs, and take more then is limited by wish. All it takes is about a week of carefully going over what you have written for your wish to make sure it's completely flawless.

Wish can also provide just a partial fulfillment, y'know. It's still the DM's discretion to give you anything above and beyond the boundaries of Wish.

[drengnikrafe]

Wish can also provide just a partial fulfillment, y'know. It's still the DM's discretion to give you anything above and beyond the boundaries of Wish.

*Mumbles to self*
Ah, but take this into account.
What DM is going to deny a player some sort of bonus that they are wishing for, if the player is willing to spend a week working on the perfect wording of the question? I mean, if I spent a week working on a perfect wording of something, and the DM simply disregarded the hard work and gave me some partial fulfillment that was mostly unreasonably low in effect, you can bet that I'm not going to be happy about it for a LONG time...
Well, so long as the request is still moderately within reason.

[senrath]

Combined with the right DM, this is a fun wish:
I wish that all of my wishes, including this one, would turn out exactly as I intend them.

[Chronos]

On the topic of D&D and real life meshing poorly... Almost everybody has 1 level in an NPC race, and NONE OF US ARE ELITISTS. Remember, a stat of 18 is almost inhuman; the very pinacle of existance in the world. Maybe some of those people who are black belts have 3 levels in expert, and MAYBE 1 in monk, if that. They seem awesome only because we're not used to seeing stuff like that.Sigh... Not this again. A half of a percent of the population has an 18 in any given stat, and a PhD is about level 5. Most people here probably are NPC classes (Experts probably more than Commoners), but there are probably several fighters, rogues, and maybe bards and monks here, too. D&D characters are a cut above the norm, but they're not that far above the norm.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm sure it's been said before; as far as skills go, one starts going into the superhuman around level 10 or so (probably before that, even).

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I'm sure it's been said before; as far as skills go, one starts going into the superhuman around level 10 or so (probably before that, even).

As it's been said before, the variance of a d20 means that at level 10 you can perform superhuman acts. You can also fail to perform pretty basic actions 10% of the time that anyone who was even remotely trained would easily accomplish every time.

D&D does not model reality well. Period.

Also, I'm a level 4 Wizard, and according to the Bard this isn't a dead magic world, so when I find a spellbook, you will all tremble in fear of my Color Spray. Fear!

EDIT: My DM IRL has informed me that he had a nightmare in which I found a spellbook and went on a powertrip and killed everyone. Then he broke me in half. He's a perfect example of someone with Str 16 min. And his friend, who is a Body builder, is probably a Water Orc with a permanent disguise self, because that man can life anything.

[monty]

As it's been said before, the variance of a d20 means that at level 10 you can perform superhuman acts. You can also fail to perform pretty basic actions 10% of the time that anyone who was even remotely trained would easily accomplish every time.

D&D does not model reality well. Period.

One of my favorites is Search. If you have, say, 8 ranks, a 1 on your roll means you can't find an item in an open chest, while a 20 lets you find a level 3 magic trap. Alternately, you could disguise yourself as a particular member of a different race, gender, and 3 age cagetories and a close friend of that person would not notice the difference if they rolled a 1 and you rolled a 20.

[TheCountAlucard]

You can also fail to perform pretty basic actions 10% of the time that anyone who was even remotely trained would easily accomplish every time.

I meant to have "taking 10" in there somewhere. A 10th-level character can perform above and beyond human ability by taking 10 on a check.

[drengnikrafe]

One of my favorites is Search. If you have, say, 8 ranks, a 1 on your roll means you can't find an item in an open chest, while a 20 lets you find a level 3 magic trap. Alternately, you could disguise yourself as a particular member of a different race, gender, and 3 age cagetories and a close friend of that person would not notice the difference if they rolled a 1 and you rolled a 20.

You have to keep something in mind: Rolling a 1 is a truely critical failure, whereas rolling a 20 is a stunning success.

Let us take your example with the open chest: Rolling a 1 would be equivilent to the real life thought that the object you are staring at is, in fact, not what you are looking for. Anyone who's ever lost their Keys/Glasses/Paper/ect only to find it later in their hand/in their pocket/ on their face/ ect can attest to this. Whereas, even the most inexperienced person can get lucky, and notice something they otherwise shouldn't. If you've ever glanced and been able to identify something only moderately familiar from far away, just because it "sorta caught your eye", you can find this believable.

Now, for your other example, same deal. You disguise yourself with such masterfulness that you truely look just like the person you are trying to. Makeup can do wonders today. Then, their close friend simply takes for granted that the person you are disguised as is who they believe it is, and doesn't even look them in the face, but rather in their general direction while talking to them, and they can easily manage to overlook something like that.

[Aquillion]

Combined with the right DM, this is a fun wish:
I wish that all of my wishes, including this one, would turn out exactly as I intend them.Again: Partial fulfillment. The DM can say "Right, the next wish you make comes out mostly the way you intend it, if you make it within 24 hours. The parts of it that get fulfilled, anyway." That's a reasonable partial fulfillment of that.

And regarding any convoluted writings, yeah. Per RAW, it would be perfectly fair for the DM to take the first page, read the first paragraph, and grant your wish exclusively based around what's written there, ignoring everything else. The partial fulfillment clause means exactly that.

(Of course, a good DM won't go out of their way to punish the players just for spending 5000 xp, if they're asking for something reasonable and/or important to the story. But people who say that there's a way to, at least per RAW, get around the DM-consent clause built into the spell are wrong.)

[drengnikrafe]

Again: Partial fulfillment. The DM can say "Right, the next wish you make comes out mostly the way you intend it, if you make it within 24 hours. The parts of it that get fulfilled, anyway." That's a reasonable partial fulfillment of that.

And regarding any convoluted writings, yeah. Per RAW, it would be perfectly fair for the DM to take the first page, read the first paragraph, and grant your wish exclusively based around what's written there, ignoring everything else. The partial fulfillment clause means exactly that.

(Of course, a good DM won't go out of their way to punish the players just for spending 5000 xp, if they're asking for something reasonable and/or important to the story. But people who say that there's a way to, at least per RAW, get around the DM-consent clause built into the spell are wrong.)

Okay, yes, you're right. There's not hard and fast way to get past the DM consent.
But I was thinking with your big essay of specific wish, you simply read the entire thing out loud, as though you were reading an Essay to your english class.
I suppose I was just stating a way in which it would hopefully be easier to get DM consent on a mildly unreasonable wish, not a way to overcome DM consent altogether.

EDIT: I guess that's why they call it "Wish" and not "Make Reality Exactly How I Want It Regardless of Circumstance or Reasonableness". That and "Wish" is easier to say...

[Chronos]

But I was thinking with your big essay of specific wish, you simply read the entire thing out loud, as though you were reading an Essay to your english class.As soon as you get to the end of any independent clause, I'm going to interrupt you to say "Granted". Whatever that implies, at that point.

[drengnikrafe]

As soon as you get to the end of any independent clause, I'm going to interrupt you to say "Granted". Whatever that implies, at that point.

That... would create a very odd effect in some of my essays, and next to null in others.
Although, I can imagine this happening...
Me: Upon the finishing of the granting of my wish, the entire world will never be the same. For the-
Chronos: Granted.
*And from then on, all the grass in the world was shiny*

I'll concede at this point, and go back into my little corner and cry that I haven't broken the system on my own yet.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As soon as you get to the end of any independent clause, I'm going to interrupt you to say "Granted". Whatever that implies, at that point.

That seems unreasonably harsh to limit the PCs to a single independent clause. Even d'jinn in stories are nice enough to let you finish before they screw you over.

[John Campbell]

Taking his word for it, and assuming he is accurate and unbiased, of course.

I'm an SCA heavy fighter. I've been doing armored combat - full speed, full power, unchoreographed, with real armor and rattan weapons - since '95 or thereabouts. I'm pretty good at it. I'm not more than just "good" - I'm not a knight or master of arms, which are our black-belt equivalents - but I know a thing or two about how to use a sword. Or a shield, polearm, greatsword, spear, axe, mace, javelin, etc. I'm comfortable in heavy armor (I currently fight in a mail hauberk, but my first armor was half-plate over mail). I'm also a competent archer.

The problem here isn't that I'm making ridiculous claims about my abilities. There are a lot of people out there, in the SCA or similar groups, that have these skills, many of them a good bit better than me. The problem is that no one responsible for the D&D rules has ever had two clues to rub together about how a swordfight actually works... and WotC in particular doesn't even care. That's a "simulationist" concern, and 3E has gone heavy, heavy into the "gamist" side. The problem is that the rules do a terrible job of representing anything even vaguely like reality, so when one attempts to apply them to reality, one ends up with ridiculous results. And taking veiled snipes at my honesty isn't going to change that.

And a big chunk of this is that 3E has broken a lot of the abstraction. I couldn't have made claims like this in AD&D, because there was nothing to base them on. But 3E introduced feats. And, more particularly, 3.5 has shown a tendency towards introducing feats that allow a character to perform a specific combat maneuver that cannot be done without the appropriate feat. And that means that statting myself is no longer a matter of making a subjective approximation against an abstract and ill-defined scale of ability. Instead, I can go down through the feat lists going, "Yes, I can do that. I can do that, which means I have that and that as prereqs. That one... seems likely, but the feat isn't really required, so skip it. I can do that. Anyone who hasn't had their gauntlets epoxied to their polearm haft can do that. I can do that...", and produce a list of feats that I must necessarily have to do the things that I actually do. And since the number of feats you can have is strictly limited by your character and class levels, I can then determine what my minimum possible level is, given that I demonstrably have these feats.

And note that that "Fighter 10" was a conservative estimate. That's a minimum level, based on only combat feats, and only ones that I have to have, and only on part of the list, because, frankly, I got bored before I finished going through it. If I were to add in even half of the "likely" ones, we'd probably be looking at epic levels. And, yes, this is obviously ridiculous. But again, that's not my problem. That's the problem of 3.x rules that make too many things require feats to do at all, or to do halfway effectively, and then don't give out enough feats.

[Vaynor]

I never understood Ray of Frost.

However, I've always loved Prestidigitation. Summon a small amount of matter? Useless unless that matter is in a brain stem. Or lodged in a trachea. Etc.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

However, I've always loved Prestidigitation. Summon a small amount of matter? Useless unless that matter is in a brain stem. Or lodged in a trachea. Etc.

Oh my God! Not this again. Cantrips are not no-save, no-SR, insta death effects. They just aren't.

[Kurald Galain]

You have to keep something in mind: Rolling a 1 is a truely critical failure, whereas rolling a 20 is a stunning success.
Not on skill checks it isn't.

However, on combat rolls it does work that way, which is to say that a clumsy rookie has a 5% chance of hitting the bull's eye in an archery contest. Now I am aware of the existence of beginner's luck, but this is really overstating it.

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, there's the variant rule where rolling a 20 on your attack roll adds an additional +10, and a natural 1 is instead a -10... It's still beneficial to roll a 20, but it doesn't guarantee success.

[Kami2awa]

Oh my God! Not this again. Cantrips are not no-save, no-SR, insta death effects. They just aren't.

I'm pretty sure no creation spell allows you to create things inside a creature. So you can't drown a creature with Create Water inside its lungs, or give someone at heart attack with Prestidigitation.

[mostlyharmful]

I never understood Ray of Frost.

Give a wand of it to a rogue that's mastered UMD. All sneak attack damage as cold damage. Even better with acid splach as it's no-SR touch attack

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I'm pretty sure no creation spell allows you to create things inside a creature. So you can't drown a creature with Create Water inside its lungs, or give someone at heart attack with Prestidigitation.

I am well aware of that. It's people like the poster I quoted that believe differently.

Also note that Prestidigitation is not a conjuration (creation) spell and is therefore not subject to the usual rules. But it still doesn't allow you to create matter in someone's brain, because you don't have line of effect to inside someone's body.

[Chronos]

That seems unreasonably harsh to limit the PCs to a single independent clause. Even d'jinn in stories are nice enough to let you finish before they screw you over.The djinn in stories also don't have to deal with ten-page wishes written in legalese.

And Prestidigitation can certainly conjure up a small lump of brain stem tissue for an hour. But it isn't anyone's brain stem in particular, and I'm not sure what you'd do with it, besides a low-calorie snack for an illithid.

[Solo]

Explaination

You will, of course, understand why I have innate skepticism towards things that I hear about over the Internet.

[robotrobot2]

Also note that Prestidigitation is not a conjuration (creation) spell and is therefore not subject to the usual rules. But it still doesn't allow you to create matter in someone's brain, because you don't have line of effect to inside someone's body.

However, you could use Prestidigitation to create a small amount of matter in a spellcaster's throat when they open their mouth to cast a spell.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

And Prestidigitation can certainly conjure up a small lump of brain stem tissue for an hour. But it isn't anyone's brain stem in particular, and I'm not sure what you'd do with it, besides a low-calorie snack for an illithid.

He didn't suggest conjuring up brain stem matter, he suggested conjuring up matter in someone's brain stem. The difference being that one is a no-save no-SR insta-gib, and the other is a minor use of the spell that is only used for flavor.


However, you could use Prestidigitation to create a small amount of matter in a spellcaster's throat when they open their mouth to cast a spell.

Which doesn't really matter since the amount of matter is negligible (and pretty much described as "any amount which has no mechanical effect") and you aren't allowed to summon poisons, so the spellcaster could just exhale, blowing it away (even in the process of casting a spell) or he could swallow it and not even care.

Because prestidigitation does not duplicate higher level spells, especially not when it allows you to do it over and over again for an hour.

[Signmaker]

However, you could use Prestidigitation to create a small amount of matter in a spellcaster's throat when they open their mouth to cast a spell.

I'm going to take a wild shot at shooting this down, and say Line of Sight.

[Yahzi]

You will, of course, understand why I have innate skepticism towards things that I hear about over the Internet.
Campbell's just saying that a standard, ordinary fighter has a collection of skills that cannot be expressed in D&D without taking a zillion feats.

D&D's basic combat action list should be longer. Higher level fighters should do the ordinary things better, and should get extraordinary feats (like Great Cleave - kill 5 people in one blow! That's an effect that can only be achieved by superheroes).

Campbell's complaint is that the people who wrote D&D thought learning to use a slightly longer, heavier sword was worth an Exotic Feat. He's not saying he's a 10th level fighter; he's saying D&D does a bad job of representing 1st level fighters.

And this is why magic-users are broken. The difference between 1st and 10th level fighter in D&D is Power Attack to Great Cleave; the difference between 1st and 10th level wizard is magic missile to fireball. For priests, it's the difference between Cure Light Wounds and Raise Dead. It's just not the same curve at all.

[Collin152]

As soon as you get to the end of any independent clause, I'm going to interrupt you to say "Granted". Whatever that implies, at that point.

The wish will consist of all the following text.

[John Campbell]

That's part of it. The bigger picture is... D&D's class/level system forces characters to advance different areas in lockstep. When you go up a level, you get so many hit points, so many skill points, and BAB, save, feat, attribute bumps at fixed intervals... some of them depending on class, some not. While you can tweak the rates of the class-dependent ones a little, you can't advance one without advancing all of the others to a greater or lesser degree. If you want to get better at Profession (Unix administration), you must necessarily also become harder to kill and better at hitting things.

And the relative rates are all totally out of whack. Hit points advance way too quickly (and have never really made sense to begin with). Skill points advance too slowly, and the caps start too low and end up too high (and the skill check mechanic is fundamentally broken anyway). Feats advance too slowly, especially given the petty BS that a lot of them represent (and just to make it impossible to fix that, they're wildly inconsistent in power level). BAB and saves are too abstract to really judge, especially since the way Armor Class works bears no resemblence to reality. Defense doesn't advance at all, except as abstracted into hit points and damage that's not really damage (see "never really made sense to begin with"). Attribute advancement by level is just weird... is the couch potato who starts hitting the gym regularly taking a dozen levels in something in order to be able to raise his physical attributes a point each? How about the guy who stops exercising and loses physical attributes? How does that even work?

This is why you get people going, "Oh, everyone's at most second level in an NPC class," because they're looking at the hit points and the fact that if you whack someone good and hard with a greatsword, they pretty much die, and that many classes start getting superhuman abilities even at first level. And then you get other people looking at the skill points and skill caps and figuring that they've got to be at least fourth or fifth level in a skillmonkey class to even begin to represent their skillset accurately. And others who can lay claim to some actual hand-to-hand combat skills looking at the feats and figuring that they must be a mid-to-high level fighter to even begin to have enough feat slots to cover their capabilities. And then those first people go, "Uh, but that means that you've got like fifty hit points, minimum, can shrug off an axe to the face, and can't even theoretically be killed by an eighty-foot fall."

And the thing is, all of these positions are equally wrong. Real people are not D&D characters, and do not have the abilities or the limitations thereof. And even in comparison to other gaming systems, D&D does an absolutely horrific job of representing real people with its character construction. That means that basically any time you start a sentence with, "People in real life are..." and intend to finish with a D&D comparison, you should probably just stop right there, because whatever you were going to say next is probably demonstrably wrong.

[Chronos]

And then those first people go, "Uh, but that means that you've got like fifty hit points, minimum, can shrug off an axe to the face, and can't even theoretically be killed by an eighty-foot fall."Then again, most of the folks here have no idea whether we can shrug off an axe to the face or an eighty-foot fall, and I reckon most of us have no interest in finding out. You can't really know how many HP you have until you've lost them all.

[Collin152]

Then again, most of the folks here have no idea whether we can shrug off an axe to the face or an eighty-foot fall, and I reckon most of us have no interest in finding out. You can't really know how many HP you have until you've lost them all.

I can barely survive a light breeze.
I have 2 hp, tops.

[senrath]

I can barely survive a light breeze.
I have 2 hp, tops.

Does that mean a cat can kill you?

[Collin152]

Does that mean a cat can kill you?

If it was really attacking, yes.
If it's just a scratch, I don't think that constitutes actual damage.

[FlyMolo]

Then again, most of the folks here have no idea whether we can shrug off an axe to the face or an eighty-foot fall, and I reckon most of us have no interest in finding out. You can't really know how many HP you have until you've lost them all.

DnD does a crappy job of simulating the modern real world. We know this. And the fact that some feats are not really feats but just prereqs to make the real feats harder to get (I'm looking at you, Alertness.) makes anyone with a diverse skill set basically epic level. A "good fix" is to make the stupid feats cost a thousand exp each to pick up. That way, you could have your EWP and Alertness and still have a playable character.

[Rutee]

That seems unreasonably harsh to limit the PCs to a single independent clause. Even d'jinn in stories are nice enough to let you finish before they screw you over.

D'jinn didn't deal with people attempting to be lawyers.

[Collin152]

D'jinn didn't deal with people attempting to be lawyers.

They would have eventually, if they hadn't declared bankruptcy back in the late eighties.

[FlyMolo]

They would have eventually, if they hadn't declared bankruptcy back in the late eighties.

What does this mean?:smallconfused:

I'm going to operate under the assumption that you know what you're talking about and just move on.

[Collin152]

What does this mean?:smallconfused:

I'm going to operate under the assumption that you know what you're talking about and just move on.

More and more people talk like lawyers/have legal consul. if D'jinn still operated, they'd encounter this wish making attitude more often.

[FlyMolo]

More and more people talk like lawyers/have legal consul. if D'jinn still operated, they'd encounter this wish making attitude more often.
Oh yeah, granted. (hah, granted.) Why the eighties?

[Collin152]

Oh yeah, granted. (hah, granted.) Why the eighties?

Everything dies in the late eighties.

[hylian chozo]

I noticed that under the trained hirelings section you can buy a barrister (lawyer) for 1gp/day. Have fun with that.

[Collin152]

I noticed that under the trained hirelings section you can buy a barrister (lawyer) for 1gp/day. Have fun with that.

To do whatever with?
Oh, yes, I will be buying many lawyers.

[FlyMolo]

I noticed that under the trained hirelings section you can buy a barrister (lawyer) for 1gp/day. Have fun with that.

On the other hand, there's no real requirement to be a lawyer, is there?

So I choose lawyer over manual labor any day.

[Solo]

To do whatever with?
Oh, yes, I will be buying many lawyers.

Just like in real life.

[Collin152]

Just like in real life.

I doubt many of those people have law degrees.

[Kraggi]

...It seems like lawyers would be a sound investment for trap finding in Tomb of Horrors.

[Collin152]

Especially if they're law-ninjas.
You can call them in from anywhere.

[FlyMolo]

...It seems like lawyers would be a sound investment for trap finding in Tomb of Horrors.

Sheep are cheaper, but less of an act in the public interest.

[hylian chozo]

To do whatever with?
Oh, yes, I will be buying many lawyers.

Careful, they may require hazard pay. I am fairly sure that mindrape constitutes a health hazard.

[Collin152]

Careful, they may require hazard pay. I am fairly sure that mindrape constitutes a health hazard.

So I'll forgoe the magic part.

[Worira]

D'jinn didn't deal with people attempting to be lawyers.

Some certainly did.

[drengnikrafe]

Actually, Chronos has a point. If a PC pulled out 50 sheets of paper, all with writing on them, and said "I've got the perfect wish!" I'd probably force them to the point, or have them send it electronically so I could look over it when we're not on valuable game time. And, y'know, even the best worded things can Fail to get you what you actually want. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

[Lord Tataraus]

Actually, Chronos has a point. If a PC pulled out 50 sheets of paper, all with writing on them, and said "I've got the perfect wish!" I'd probably force them to the point, or have them send it electronically so I could look over it when we're not on valuable game time. And, y'know, even the best worded things can Fail to get you what you actually want. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

Personally, I as the DM would not want to see or hear want you want to wish for until the time comes, at that point I get out an egg timer set for 30 seconds and say go and you read it to me and I grant the wish based on what you say (cutting off exactly at 30sec). Note that reading very fast might cause me to mishear something, woe to you :smallamused:

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Actually, Chronos has a point. If a PC pulled out 50 sheets of paper, all with writing on them, and said "I've got the perfect wish!" I'd probably force them to the point, or have them send it electronically so I could look over it when we're not on valuable game time. And, y'know, even the best worded things can Fail to get you what you actually want. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

Note that no one is actually suggesting 50 sheets of paper.

We are talking about at most a long paragraph really. People may say things like "essay" as a joke, but no one is writing a college thesis about their wish.

[senrath]

I dunno, I've seen a wish spell completely written out in legalese. That plumped it up quite a bit, to around 10 or so pages, I think. So if the spell before the legalese was long to begin with...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I dunno, I've seen a wish spell completely written out in legalese. That plumped it up quite a bit, to around 10 or so pages, I think. So if the spell before the legalese was long to begin with...

If the legalese takes 10 pages then the spell without it takes about 5. If Legalese more then doubles your size you are doing it incredibly wrong.

If a player wants a five page non-legalese wish I'm going to slap them.

You make a wish, that wish has a single effect. There is no reason that can't be expressed in 3 pages at most of legalese.

[Chronos]

Personally, I as the DM would not want to see or hear want you want to wish for until the time comes, at that point I get out an egg timer set for 30 seconds and say go and you read it to me and I grant the wish based on what you say (cutting off exactly at 30sec).30 seconds is awfully generous, though, considering that you're supposed to be able to cast a Wish in a single round (with enough time left over to move 30 feet).

As an experiment just now, I timed myself talking. "How much can I say in six seconds? It's long enough for a multi-sentence Wish" was just about six seconds. Which doesn't really leave room for any legalese at all.

[senrath]

That's when a player decides to be stupid and says "I wish you wouldn't grant this wish."

[Chronos]

Sorry, that's an Untyped Wish. I have to ask the permission of GOD Over Djinns for those.

[Quorothorn]

I would first just like to express my amazement at the enormously involved side-tracks this topic has gone on on occasion.

Oh yes, and the Floating Disk is durn useful if you're a weakling mage and like to carry around loads of magic items (and you also want to be able to outrun anything at all). Add in Bags of Holding to the mix and you can have a city's worth of loot floating behind you with no encumbrance: yay. I know this Sorc who carries a metric ton or more of books (oh, and other magic items, too) around with him thanks to that combo despite having about 10 STR: the Floating Disk is part of his morning rituals, along with Mind Blank and Overland Flight.

Ray of Frost also has it's uses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html). So does Dancing Lights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html).

I'm going to add a vote to Inflict Minor Wounds, just glancing at the spells in PH.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I would first just like to express my amazement at the enormously involved side-tracks this topic has gone on on occasion.

Oh yes, and the Floating Disk is durn useful if you're a weakling mage and like to carry around loads of magic items (and you also want to be able to outrun anything at all). Add in Bags of Holding to the mix and you can have a city's worth of loot floating behind you with no encumbrance: yay. I know this Sorc who carries a metric ton or more of books (oh, and other magic items, too) around with him thanks to that combo despite having about 10 STR: the Floating Disk is part of his morning rituals, along with Mind Blank and Overland Flight.

Or you could use Hoard Gullet to give yourself a Bag of holding for the same duration as the disk. Not to mention, once you have a Bag of Holding, why is he using the Disk spell?

[Collin152]

Personally, I as the DM would not want to see or hear want you want to wish for until the time comes, at that point I get out an egg timer set for 30 seconds and say go and you read it to me and I grant the wish based on what you say (cutting off exactly at 30sec). Note that reading very fast might cause me to mishear something, woe to you :smallamused:

I wish for precisely what is written on this piece of paper, exactly as it is worded.



That's when a player decides to be stupid and says "I wish you wouldn't grant this wish."

Done.

[Rutee]

Just like in real life.

I assure you that the legal profession sets significantly higher standards in ability then most other professions one can possibly go into, as entry requisites.



If the legalese takes 10 pages then the spell without it takes about 5. If Legalese more then doubles your size you are doing it incredibly wrong.

No, trust me, if you want to have legitimate boiler plate protection, you're going to need a lot more then double space.


I wish for precisely what is written on this piece of paper, exactly as it is worded.
I dump a vial of ink on you. Exactly as much ink as it took to write your wish out.

Remember, the spell by itself grants the wish, by RAW, complete reign to pervert your wish or grant a partial fulfillment. So I cut you off at "I wish for precisely what is written on this piece of paper".

[Collin152]

I dump a vial of ink on you. Exactly as much ink as it took to write your wish out.

Remember, the spell by itself grants the wish, by RAW, complete reign to pervert your wish or grant a partial fulfillment. So I cut you off at "I wish for precisely what is written on this piece of paper".

I wish for nothing more or less than that which is described by the words written on this piece of paper.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I dump a vial of ink on you. Exactly as much ink as it took to write your wish out.

Remember, the spell by itself grants the wish, by RAW, complete reign to pervert your wish or grant a partial fulfillment. So I cut you off at "I wish for precisely what is written on this piece of paper".

Or you could just make an exact copy of the piece of paper.

[Rutee]

I wish for nothing more than that which is described by the words written on this piece of paper.

And then proceed to pervert the writing.

You don't understand, Collin. Speaking as one of the only people on this board with anything approaching legal qualifications, Legalese only functions when you must listen to every part of it. The Partial Fulfillment clause pretty much grants the GM RAW right to ignore any part of the wish's wording. You can not win by Legalese when the GM has complete right to ignore it.

[Collin152]

And then proceed to pervert the writing.

You don't understand, Collin. Speaking as one of the only people on this board with anything approaching legal qualifications, Legalese only functions when you must listen to every part of it. The Partial Fulfillment clause pretty much grants the GM RAW right to ignore any part of the wish's wording. You can not win by Legalese when the GM has complete right to ignore it.

Yes, the DM has RAW right to screw over any wish no matter how well worded.
I just wanted to sneak this one past the time limit rules.

[Rutee]

Oh. Just the time limit. Have at it, that shouldn't be too rough.

[Collin152]

Oh. Just the time limit. Have at it, that shouldn't be too rough.

Am I getting close?
Obviously I'll need legal counsel for the wish on the paper.
And several proofreaders.
Typos can be deadly.

[John Campbell]

I wish for nothing more or less than that which is described by the words written on this piece of paper.

As a GM, how vicious I get about interpreting wishes tends to be directly proportional to the amount of legalese the player throws at me. If someone says, "I wish for a hot chick to fall madly in love with me!", I'll probably even resist my temptation to make it a baby phoenix driven violently insane by its desire for the character. If someone pulls out a ream of legalese and starts off, "I wish for nothing -", that's when I interrupt with, "Granted."

[FlyMolo]

As a GM, how vicious I get about interpreting wishes tends to be directly proportional to the amount of legalese the player throws at me. If someone says, "I wish for a hot chick to fall madly in love with me!", I'll probably even resist my temptation to make it a baby phoenix driven violently insane by its desire for the character. If someone pulls out a ream of legalese and starts off, "I wish for nothing -", that's when I interrupt with, "Granted."

I dunno, is there a race of bird people?

When a munchkin player whips out 5 pages of legalese, you get ready to cut him off, right? So what happens if he says "I wish for happiness" and you cut him off? You are now obligated to make him pun-pun.

[Collin152]

As a GM, how vicious I get about interpreting wishes tends to be directly proportional to the amount of legalese the player throws at me. If someone says, "I wish for a hot chick to fall madly in love with me!", I'll probably even resist my temptation to make it a baby phoenix driven violently insane by its desire for the character. If someone pulls out a ream of legalese and starts off, "I wish for nothing -", that's when I interrupt with, "Granted."

Very well, mister cut off man.
"I wish my wish will come true as I desire it."

[Signmaker]

Raptorans are bird-people.

[senrath]

Very well, mister cut off man.
"I wish my wish will come true as I desire it."

I'd cut off right after the 'come true' part. Congratulations, your wish came true in that it came true. :P

[drengnikrafe]

You guys, stop arguing over whether or not you could pull a fast one on each other based upon a lawyer essay about a wish and a quick halt to it.
I'm sorry for ever bringing it up as a possibility.
There's not a very good chance anyone would even write a lawyer-perfect wish, and it's not a good use of time, unless it's in the DM's free time, and the whole "instant grant" thing CAN be retracted.
DM wins, as per always.

DON'T ARGUE THIS TIME!!!

[tyckspoon]

There's not a very good chance anyone would even write a lawyer-perfect wish, and it's not a good use of time, unless it's in the DM's free time, and the whole "instant grant" thing CAN be retracted.
DM wins, as per always.

DON'T ARGUE THIS TIME!!!

The argument is a very good example of why Wish is a bad spell, at least. The 'safe' uses aren't worth paying 5000 xp, and the open-ended portion just invites arguments and baits DMs into doing malicious things.

[drengnikrafe]

The argument is a very good example of why Wish is a bad spell, at least. The 'safe' uses aren't worth paying 5000 xp, and the open-ended portion just invites arguments and baits DMs into doing malicious things.

I guess I switched sides while I was arguing, and didn't even notice until now.
Although, if, for some reason, you're running a non-epic campaign and you have fifty-billion experience to blow... Wish may not be a bad idea.

[Rutee]

Not even the +1 Inherent Bonus?

[SurlySeraph]

Raptorans are bird-people.

Soylent Purple is Raptorans!

[tyckspoon]

Not even the +1 Inherent Bonus?

Only if you've got an odd-numbered bonus and have already exhausted other ways of increasing it further. Otherwise you need to get two sequential Wishes for it to do anything useful. A minor bonus isn't worth casting the spell yourself and paying the 5,000 xp or equivalent gold cost. It *is* pretty nice if you're getting your Wishes for free, or cheap, tho; Gating a couple of Efreet to Wish up an inherent bonus for yourself is a much more efficient use of xp.

[Collin152]

I'd cut off right after the 'come true' part. Congratulations, your wish came true in that it came true. :P

Yes, my wish came true, my wish being that it would come true as I desire it.
That you failed to listen to the last part does not prevent it from existing.

[Chronos]

Not even the +1 Inherent Bonus?Remember that inherent bonuses from multiple sources don't stack. If it's worth the trouble to get the +1 to a particular stat, it's probably also worthwhile to get the full +5. But it's really hard to get five wishes in immediate succession, due to spell slot limitations, so you have to use your wishes to make one of those ability score tomes. Which was the one thing I admitted that wishes were good for.

[hamishspence]

Player's who say "I wish to be an overgod" should not get what they want. Or should, but then in process are removed from campaign, cannot do a thing, roll up a new character.

"I wish to be a deity" maybe stick them with equivalent of the discworld god Herne the Hunted, god of things whose destiny is to end life as a brief, crunchy squeak: ie very low powered.

wishes should be good, but not game-breaking good, same with miracles.

[senrath]

Yes, my wish came true, my wish being that it would come true as I desire it.
That you failed to listen to the last part does not prevent it from existing.

Partial fulfillment clause. As the DM if I chose to ignore that last part, it's as if it didn't exist.

[Khanderas]

Does that mean a cat can kill you?If it was really attacking, yes.
If it's just a scratch, I don't think that constitutes actual damage.
A cat cannot kill me, you, or anyone else even if it had a malicious intelligence that allowed it to go for the throat.
Assuming you are so flatfooted it actually manages to slash your jugular, it would not spray forth in Samurai Showdown manner. Yes you would bleed, but it would be like a nick from a razor.

Now if I was actually awake, the cat is toast, any human can snap the neck of any housecat (cat family problebly extends into panthers and tigers). Sure I get some mementos on my underarms but that is about it. And I may need a disease shot afterwards (cat claws and especially teeth are ... not sanitary, think of how they wash to begin with) but dead from bloodloss ? No.


That is why DnD does not "copy" the Real World well.

[Gorbash]

Secret Chest.
You... hide... something. For sixty days. In an expensive chest. At 5th level. The only real use it has is to screw up some evil baddy's plans by tossing something in the chest, then chopping the mini chest focus in half so it is "irretrievably lost." Oh wait, you can actually mount an expedition to find it, so "irretrievable" is a misuse of the word, apparently. Granted, it might take them a while, but you might as well take a bag of holding, put said object in and stab said bag of holding to lose it. It would even be less expensive, and you wouldn't waste a spell slot.
Bleh. Bad spell.

Actually... I found a use for it. Look up the Heart of Stone spell. You replace your own heart with a stone one and gains some immunities, and you have your real heart somewhere... In order not to lose it, or have somebody destroy it (which kills you, the same as Davy Jones) you put it in Leomund's Secret Chest, and recast it every two months. Since that expensive box is focus of the spell, you don't have to spend additional 5k gold every two months. I'm so doing that with my wizard once I hit 13th lvl.

[Khanderas]

Regarding wishes.
1) If a player has to stop for breath while reading his wish, it is too long in every case. Break it off there. That should take care of the worst lawering.

2) <Metagame>Is the wish important to the survival of the game ? Examples being "I wish I was home" when almost all spells are out and the undead hordes keep coming towards your little shelter with very few spells left. Bonus it also has spells it can emulate (teleport kinds). Not letting this wish pass could result in a TPK.
Not so well recieved would be spells that try to move outside the rules, infinite money would fall into this </Metagame>

3) If a wish can be emulated by a spell already in existence, it is by RAW and RAI comparativly safe to use. Example "I wish X was dead" would simulate a Finger of death, saves calculated on a level 9 spell / casterlevel and perhaps a bonus for paying XP to use it.
3)b If said spell is generally in the devine realm (heal would come to mind) chances for screwup increases OR a devine being could demand returned favor for a real or percieved favor granted the Wizard via the Wish.

4) If the wish is unique, fail or partial fulfillment or a curse or harsher XP drain as the DM sees fit. Perhaps more then one of the above.

5) If Miracle is used, the intent would be less perverted, but the clerics standing with his/her god would be included. The god may demand a favor later on for the use of Miracle on the Cleric's behalf.


Wish should be generally avoided by a Wizard for everyday things, but when you need to pull off some fast magic that you are not prepared for (such as Cleric dead, no heals left, running low on spells and you are still surrounded in a field by several thousand undeads, Wish is worth a few thousand XP drain to survive, by teleportation home for example).
Wish is taking two tons extra mana/magic/thaums and overwhelm reailty with what you want done. This naturally burns alot out of the Wizard (the drain) but suprisingly effective as crude channeling goes.

Edit: This is how I would handle it. RAW ? Perhaps not in all places. RAI ? I think so.

[Quincunx]

Very well, mister cut off man.
"I wish my wish will come true as I desire it."

I'd let this one pass.

"Wait. . .nothing is happening."

"Yet. What you desired more than anything was the agreement, which you now have, so the desire disappeared. Some time after you've forgotten the shock of no instant gratification, you'll desperately desire something and it will be granted. But not now."

I'd also probably cut off the session at that point, both to heighten dramatic tension and because nothing's going to get done while the recipient of the Wish tries to employ the legalese.

[Quorothorn]

Or you could use Hoard Gullet to give yourself a Bag of holding for the same duration as the disk. Not to mention, once you have a Bag of Holding, why is he using the Disk spell?

Because he has about STR8 and is literally carrying around entire libraries with him (Bibliophile :smallbiggrin:), so he stores everything in Bags of Holding which he then stacks on the Disk.

I know, still a somewhat odd pick for a 1st-level spell known, but the man loves his books. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.


It could also function as an elevator: cast, hop aboard, then fly over a cliff.
...Wait, would that even work? :smallconfused:

[TheCountAlucard]

Nope. The disk can't move on its own, so while you can sit on it, you can't ride it anywhere.

[Aquillion]

wishes should be good, but not game-breaking good, same with miracles.Miracle is different in one key way: It doesn't cost you XP to get the 'listed' abilities. This changes it from one of the most generally-useless spells in the game, to one of the best; sure, you're limited to 8th-level cleric spells and 7th level other spells, but still, there's a lot of stuff in there. Being able to cherry-pick any spell of 7th level and below from anywhere in the entire game is often worth the 9th-level slot. (Clerics can use it to set up contingencies without requiring a domain, say.) Worth 5000 xp, not so much... and it's also worth more to clerics because they tend to have slightly more limited spell lists. You get more as a cleric able to access arcane magic via Miracle, than you do as a wizard able to access divine magic via Wish / Limited Wish. Not that it matters with the xp costs, of course.

On top of this, per RAW miracle doesn't ever "subvert" powerful requests; it instead simply refuses to grant them if they're outside your deity/alignment/ideal's nature. That helps a lot, particularly for rules-lawyer PCs who should have no trouble coming up with requests that are unquestionably in line with their alignment / deity. (Now, a particularly nasty player would play a completely selfish, self-absorbed "cleric of me" who follows the neutral evil alignment, worshipping power as an abstract concept; they could then argue that absolutely anything they do to benefit themselves is an acceptable Miracle. Per RAW, this is basically correct. Good luck getting it past a DM, though.)

Of course, if you have a way to eliminate the XP cost (thought bottle, dweomerkeeper, etc) Wish becomes an absurd spell capable of producing unlimited wealth or any magical item instantly for free. But that's another "good luck getting it past a DM" thing.

[Kurald Galain]

Nope. The disk can't move on its own, so while you can sit on it, you can't ride it anywhere.

Oh, I'm sure something can be arranged with a length of rope, or by using two disks and stepping back and forth between them (each time moving the other a bit)... :smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

Nope. The disk can't move on its own, so while you can sit on it, you can't ride it anywhere.Step 1: Have a flying familar (hummingbirds are nice, since they can hover and grant +4 initative.)

Step 2: Using "Imbue familar with Spell-Like Ability", give them the ability to cast Floating Disk.

Step 3: Familar casts floating disk, flies five feet from you; disk follows them, letting you drift anywhere you want to go.

[drengnikrafe]

Step 1: Have a flying familar (hummingbirds are nice, since they can hover and grant +4 initative.)

Step 2: Using "Imbue familar with Spell-Like Ability", give them the ability to cast Floating Disk.

Step 3: Familar casts floating disk, flies five feet from you; disk follows them, letting you drift anywhere you want to go.

Sounds promising. I only see one problem...
What is the base speed of a Hummingbird?

[Chronos]

African or European?

[Hectonkhyres]

African or European?
You owe me a new keyboard and a can of RC Cola. And fresh lining for my sinuses.
Ow. Just Ow.

[drengnikrafe]

African or European?

What about the stats for both (I acknowledge your joke. I would've responded 10 minutes earlier, but I was in hysteria)?

[senrath]

African or European?

With or without a coconut, and is there a swallow to help him?

[lumberofdabeast]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/monty_python.jpg

[drengnikrafe]

With or without a coconut, and is there a swallow to help him?

First: There is not coconut. It is assumed that the swallow... err... Hummingbird is unencumbered, and moving at full speed. Second, there is no swallow, just the hummingbird.

[FlyMolo]

Oh, I'm sure something can be arranged with a length of rope, or by using two disks and stepping back and forth between them (each time moving the other a bit)... :smallbiggrin:

congratulations, you've set up a quite pointless way to walk across very large spaces. Poor man's overland flight.

[Aquillion]

congratulations, you've set up a quite pointless way to walk across very large spaces. Poor man's overland flight.Not true. The disk has one extremely major advantage over Overland Flight: Overland Flight uses your own movement actions to fly. The disk doesn't, and doesn't have the usual mounted combat restriction preventing the rider from making full attacks after movement (So it's actually most useful to a fighter-type, assuming they can finagle a way around it's restrictions and make it move next to the enemy so they can full attack... or to a summoner or someone else who casts full-round spells.)

Basically, it's pounce for free. For a spellcaster, though, a high-level phantom steed is better, assuming you treated it as trained for combat riding (which is not at all a given); then you don't have to spend move actions directing it, and can still take full-round actions after using it to move. Casters generally don't care about not being able to make full attacks.

Oh, yes, and a CL 14 phantom steed also flies at 240 feet per round. There's that, too.