The most useless spells.

[Adumbration]

I was looking through Sorceror spells today, when I ran into a seventh level spell that I simply couldn't figure out an use for. Some of you may guess it.

That's right. Instant Summons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm)

Let's sum it up. It's a seventh level spell. It requires to use another spell, and a 1000 gp sapphire, and what does it do? You can summon an item to your hand - sounds handy, right? Like, when you lose your spellbook, you can use it to summon a back-up, right?

Not quite. First of all, anything that gets your spellbook - say, for example through Tomb of Horror-esque trick - gets the sapphire. Which is required to summon the item. And which is apparently fragile enough to be crushed by the muscles of a mage.

But hey, this could be handy in a case, say, someone steals your spellbook! Again! But this time, you've inscribed the Arcane Mark on you original spellbook! Now you can do the ha-ha! on your would-be thief!

Right?

Wrong. You can't summon the item if it's in the possession of another creature. I mean, c'mon, what spell could be more filled with suck than that? I honestly can't come up with any remotely useful way of using it. And this is a seventh level spell! For goodness sake. It's right next to Spell Turning and Mage's Magnificent Mansion.

Now, what other sucky spells are out there, completely out of their league and useless?

[Kurald Galain]

Hold Portal?

[mostlyharmful]

I used this in a homebrew in combination with teleport Object to make a spellbook enchancement that it can be summoned and replaced once per day from wherever it is, no more worrying about it when it's locked up safe and sound in the biggest safe buried under your tower on anouther continent. Other than that yes, its more than a little sucky.

[Xefas]

Flare! A useless spell when compared to the dynamo that it must share a spell level with: Prestidigitation.

A -1 to attack rolls for 1 minute, requiring a save and susceptible to spell resistance, to one creature OR flavor my morning oatmeal to taste like lobster. Is there really a competition?

[Falrin]

Detect Undead.

60 Ft cone? Concentration +1min/LvL? hooray, you spot the zombie before he catches you, that sneaky bastard.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Detect Undead.

60 Ft cone? Concentration +1min/LvL? hooray, you spot the zombie before he catches you, that sneaky bastard.

Best part: Detect Evil will also Detect pretty much any undead, and other things, and it's the same spell level.

[Demons_eye]

"If the item is in the possession of another creature, the spell does not work, but you know who the possessor is and roughly where that creature is located when the summons occurs"

Well you would know who had your spell book were it is at, ect....
And A nice thing for the lost wedding rings and car keys and other things you lose alot.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Detect Undead.

60 Ft cone? Concentration +1min/LvL? hooray, you spot the zombie before he catches you, that sneaky bastard.

Best part: Detect Evil will also Detect pretty much any undead, and other things, and it's the same spell level.

[Solo]

Tenser's Floating Disk.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Tenser's Floating Disk.

Dude...don't mock the disk. I thought it was useless at first too but my group has come up with all sorts of interesting uses for it. Not one of which was 'Swoop over the toiling hired workers/slave labor screeching profanity and threatening with arcane doom'

[Solo]

Dude...don't mock the disk. I thought it was useless at first too but my group has come up with all sorts of interesting uses for it. Not one of which was 'Swoop over the toiling hired workers/slave labor screeching profanity and threatening with arcane doom'

Except that it can't float more than a few feet off the ground.

[streakster]

Dude...don't mock the disk. I thought it was useless at first too but my group has come up with all sorts of interesting uses for it. Not one of which was 'Swoop over the toiling hired workers/slave labor screeching profanity and threatening with arcane doom'

Midget slaves, I take it?

[hylian chozo]

Except that it can't float more than a few feet off the ground.

But it can float over pressure switches, trip wires, and other traps. Very useful.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Tenser's disk is awesome. Recently, we were fighting something that stayed underwater (we were in a cave) and our warmage made the disk, put the bard on it, and had him float above where we knew the creature was and whirling blade. Not to mention I was transported across the water without exposing myself to getting grappled by the thing.

[Neithan]

I think virtue is really useless. 1 temporary hp is an increase by 10 to 20% for 1st level wizards or rogues, but you probably drop after the first hit anyway.
I'd rather prepare one additional Light spell.

[Swooper]

I remember a one-shot evil party my group once played.. We had an overweight goblin sorcerer who had a constant Tenser's Floating Disc effect to sustain his bloated body - his legs were crippled and couldn't. Pretty visually impressive concept in it's own freaky way, I guess (think Baron Harkonnen).

As for the topic: I always thought Nystul's Magic Aura was pretty lame. Ditto on Tenser's Floating Disc, Misdirection (2nd level spell for something so ludicrously situational?), Fire Trap (it's a nice idea, but 1d4+1/level on a 4th level spell that you can't even cast directly at something?) and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (OK, not 100% useless, but has anyone used this? Seriously?).

[Squash Monster]

I've never understood Virtue, myself. I always feel like it should have some hidden secret useage, like how Cure Minor Wounds is an auto stabilize. But I've never found that use.

[Chronos]

Tenser's Floating Disk isn't worthless, exactly... It's just useful so seldom (especially compared to other spells) that you'd never actually prepare it, and certainly not use one of your precious Spells Known on it as a sorcerer. A Warmage is about the only class that ever would have good reason to use it (since it's automatically available anyway).

And don't knock Magic Aura or Fire Trap. Magic Aura means that you don't light up like a Christmas tree under Detect Magic, which is essential for any character trying to be subtle, and it can be used in some great swindles. And Fire Trap isn't meant to be cast in combat; it has a duration of "permanent until discharged", so you cast it on the things you want to protect during your downtime, when you're just resting up between adventures. Also note that it doesn't harm the object it's warding, which makes it one of the best protections available for your spellbook, until you're able to craft magic item traps for it.

[AmberVael]

Phantom Trap.
Second level spell- you make someone THINK there is a trap. Really... that's kind of useless. Maybe level 1, I could see, but by the time level 2 spells come around you, as an untrained wizard, could likely set up a real trap with a craft skill and your intelligence modifier, or possibly with the use of another spell.
Why bother making someone think there is a trap when you can make a REAL trap? It's not like you're wasting gold- Phantom Trap requires 50 gp to cast.

Gentle Repose
Sure, it's a handy spell, but is it really worth a second/third level spell slot? No. It makes corpses stink less (albeit in a more complex fashion). Sure, it's still used, but that's only because there isn't another method. It's not something that is good for its level.

Minor Creation.
You can... um... honestly, I can't think of a good use for this spell. Major creation? Yes. But temporary wood and vegetable matter creations that you have to use a craft check to make anything interesting out of (and with a casting time of one minute) kind of limits the use of this spell.
Best use? Create Door Stop. This is fourth level- a little more versatility would be nice.

Secret Chest.
You... hide... something. For sixty days. In an expensive chest. At 5th level. The only real use it has is to screw up some evil baddy's plans by tossing something in the chest, then chopping the mini chest focus in half so it is "irretrievably lost." Oh wait, you can actually mount an expedition to find it, so "irretrievable" is a misuse of the word, apparently. Granted, it might take them a while, but you might as well take a bag of holding, put said object in and stab said bag of holding to lose it. It would even be less expensive, and you wouldn't waste a spell slot.
Bleh. Bad spell.

[Eldariel]

Nystul's Magic Aura is an awesome tool against the PCs to give them the wrong idea of what items they've acquired, to sell them junk, and to overall empty their purses. Also, it's a great tool for selling Mount-summoned Horses for cash and overall for all sorts of scams. Oh, and it's a fine way of hiding the magically infused PCs from Arcane Sight/Detect Magic-variants. The spell is definitely one of the most versatile non-combat spells out there; I'd never leave it out of my spellbook.

[mabriss lethe]

Nystul's Magic Aura is an awesome tool against the PCs to give them the wrong idea of what items they've acquired, to sell them junk, and to overall empty their purses. Also, it's a great tool for selling Mount-summoned Horses for cash and overall for all sorts of scams. Oh, and it's a fine way of hiding the magically infused PCs from Arcane Sight/Detect Magic-variants. The spell is definitely one of the most versatile non-combat spells out there; I'd never leave it out of my spellbook.

Exactly. In a magic-heavy campaign I was in a while back, it was the smuggler's bread and butter. (there was a lot of magic, but it was all very tightly regulated.) We made a mint using this spell to get black market magic items into and out of cities.

[Draz74]

Gentle Repose
Sure, it's a handy spell, but is it really worth a second/third level spell slot? No. It makes corpses stink less (albeit in a more complex fashion). Sure, it's still used, but that's only because there isn't another method. It's not something that is good for its level.

This one, I don't have a problem with.


Secret Chest.
You... hide... something. For sixty days. In an expensive chest. At 5th level. The only real use it has is to screw up some evil baddy's plans by tossing something in the chest, then chopping the mini chest focus in half so it is "irretrievably lost." Oh wait, you can actually mount an expedition to find it, so "irretrievable" is a misuse of the word, apparently. Granted, it might take them a while, but you might as well take a bag of holding, put said object in and stab said bag of holding to lose it. It would even be less expensive, and you wouldn't waste a spell slot.
Bleh. Bad spell.

Ah, but you can't have a Bag of Holding without Secret Chest.

But yes, pretty much the only real use for Secret Chest is so your party Wizard can Craft some Handy Haversacks and Bags of Holding.

[Ryuuk]

Minor Creation.
You can... um... honestly, I can't think of a good use for this spell. Major creation? Yes. But temporary wood and vegetable matter creations that you have to use a craft check to make anything interesting out of (and with a casting time of one minute) kind of limits the use of this spell.
Best use? Create Door Stop. This is fourth level- a little more versatility would be nice.

There is one use, but I'm not sure how it would rank as far as cheese goes. How high are the DCs for crafting poison?

[streakster]

I don't agree. Minor Creation can be very nice. See, it does require craft checks. And I agree, that's kind of bad - it should waive that unless the craft DC is over a certain number, or give a craft bonus, or some such thing. But with a wizard, you've got a decent chance to succeed - so, what use is this then? It should really be called "Summon Mundane Item". Now, a lot of people hate mundane items, and ignore them. I've got bit of a MacGyver streak, and I've played the Tome of Horrors, so I love mundane items - and being able to make almost anything off the mundane EQ list is, for me, a huge asset.

My 2cp, anyway.

[Kyeudo]

Minor Creation.
You can... um... honestly, I can't think of a good use for this spell. Major creation? Yes. But temporary wood and vegetable matter creations that you have to use a craft check to make anything interesting out of (and with a casting time of one minute) kind of limits the use of this spell.
Best use? Create Door Stop. This is fourth level- a little more versatility would be nice.


The arcane version does suck, but it has it's uses. Mostly involving large quantities of vegtable oil and fire or large quantities of poison.

The psionic version is infinitely more useful, since it's a first level power. Instant bridges, rope, ladders, etc.

[Solo]

I don't agree. Minor Creation can be very nice. See, it does require craft checks. And I agree, that's kind of bad - it should waive that unless the craft DC is over a certain number, or give a craft bonus, or some such thing. But with a wizard, you've got a decent chance to succeed - so, what use is this then? It should really be called "Summon Mundane Item". Now, a lot of people hate mundane items, and ignore them. I've got bit of a MacGyver streak, and I've played the Tome of Horrors, so I love mundane items - and being able to make almost anything off the mundane EQ list is, for me, a huge asset.

My 2cp, anyway.

Summon pot.

Sell pot.

Make profit, repeat until desired result is achieved.

[monty]

Summon pot.

Sell pot.

Make profit, repeat until desired result is achieved.

Step 1: Cast Minor Creation
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

[Eldariel]

Summon pot.

Sell pot.

Make profit, repeat until desired result is achieved.

I'll bet Pot isn't the drug of choice in D&D.

[Kurald Galain]

Many of the spells mentioned here are situational spells that are useful for a wizard during downtime (you won't be preparing them if you expect combat) and probably not worth the slot for a sorcerer.

Nystul's Magic Aura - useful for con artists and trader types, and if I had a residence somewhere I'd cast this on absolutely everything just to annoy visiting warlocks. I seem to recall the 2E version was permanent.

Likewise, during downtime you can go nuts protecting everything you own with Fire Traps, and drive visiting thieves nuts by throwing Phantom Traps liberally around in your home (and don't forget to add a few real traps, of course).

I've made good use of Mnemonic Enhancer during days where having not enough spells, or not the right spells, as a wizard would be problematic.

Minor Creation is completely awesome. The craft checks are only required for complex items, and arguably a rope, basic weapon, or similar practical object doesn't count as complex. Well, it is too high level, but still nice.

Secret Chest is very useful for the stylish traveling wizard who has more luggage than he could carry. It's slightly too high in level, again, but the only reason this spell isn't useful in 3E is because of the idea that everybody can buy any magic item they want from the market at any time.

[Squash Monster]

In the last campaign I was in, my DM really liked to put the party in jail. If we played for one more level, my sorcerer would have had Major Creation. One casting of Major Creation would put a brand new adamantine battle axe in Rex Irongroin's cell, and probably kill most of our jailers. I think that's a plenty good use of a spell.


I'll bet Pot isn't the drug of choice in D&D.I bet the drug of choice is still plant matter.

[AmberVael]

Creating poisons is probably a bad use since most of the best poisons (IE, the ones that will actually work well at that level) won't be plant matter. Plus, IIRC, the DC for poison crafting is pretty high.
Creating small random objects is most likely going to be a waste of your time and spell slots at this level. Rope? Spider climb or various incapacitating magics. Vegetable oil? Grease or Fireball.
Minor Creation has potential but as we're talking about 'in comparison to its level,' I honestly think the ability to create rope isn't as awe inspiring as say, Improved Invisibility.

That last sentence is my argument for secret chest, too.

[Solo]

Tenser's disk is awesome.

I'm to going to bother arguing with you. I am simply going to stare at you skeptically until you stop living in denial and admit that I am right.

[Collin152]

I'm to going to bother arguing with you. I am simply going to stare at you skeptically until you stop living in denial and admit that I am right.

There is a distinct possibility that you are both right.



It's certainly more logical than Solo being wrong.

[Chronos]

Creating poisons is probably a bad use since most of the best poisons (IE, the ones that will actually work well at that level) won't be plant matter.Black lotus extract, anyone? 3d6 Con damage initial and secondary, contact delivery, and decently high save DCs. Besides, if you've got a free supply of it, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a way to make an enemy have to make a few dozen saves against it.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Oh come on! Gentle Repose is a wonderful spell. Have you not seen the flurry of Lich Loved conversations that took place around the board yesterday? :smalltongue:

I like the disk, it's a great platform for marioesque antics over pits for a party. Not the most effective spell out there, but it's fun if you are creative with it.

[Collin152]

Technically not useless, but it's hard to get good use of Statue.

[Nohwl]

i dont like know direction.

[AmberVael]

Black lotus extract, anyone? 3d6 Con damage initial and secondary, contact delivery, and decently high save DCs. Besides, if you've got a free supply of it, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a way to make an enemy have to make a few dozen saves against it.

Hence why I said most. :smalltongue:
Still, I'd like to see the wizard that could make the poison craft DC for it.


Oh come on! Gentle Repose is a wonderful spell. Have you not seen the flurry of Lich Loved conversations that took place around the board yesterday? :smalltongue:
Sure, it's a great spell, but I just don't think it should be quite as high level as it is. Useful, but... maybe a bit high for the amount of use it will actually see.

[streakster]

i dont like know direction.

It doesn't like you either, you know.

[Zincorium]

Hence why I said most. :smalltongue:
Still, I'd like to see the wizard that could make the poison craft DC for it.

Craft is a class skill, it's also intelligence based, and wizards have enough bonus skill points to waste a few.

Just sayin'.

[Collin152]

It doesn't like you either, you know.

What?!
But... it said it had a good time...
Why would it lie to me?

[streakster]

What?!
But... it said it had a good time...
Why would it lie to me?

I think it knows about you and that compass...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Ah, Vael. Now we are on the same page here. I agree, a level lower would do wonders for it.

[AmberVael]

Craft is a class skill, it's also intelligence based, and wizards have enough bonus skill points to waste a few.

Just sayin'.

Alternately, at that level, you could just get Phantasmal Killer and some rope and not have to waste skill points to make your spell effective. :smalltongue:


At the very least, Hadrian, I think it could benefit by having Clerics and Wizards be able to cast it at the same level.

[GrassyGnoll]

Oh come on! Gentle Repose is a wonderful spell. Have you not seen the flurry of Lich Loved conversations that took place around the board yesterday? :smalltongue:

Uh, wha? Where?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Seeing as how it's not exactly a heal spell, I agree. I doubt it'd break the game any to have one's body rot slower regardless of the magic type to do the deed. I know I'd sleep better with a bard around with a "cure minor" on hand than I would with a primary caster with repose. :smalltongue:

[Nychta]

Seeing as how it's not exactly a heal spell, I agree. I doubt it'd break the game any to have one's body rot slower regardless of the magic type to do the deed. I know I'd sleep better with a bard around with a "cure minor" on hand than I would with a primary caster with repose. :smalltongue:

I don't know anyone who's even considered taking Gentle Repose. Now I've read this thread, I'm gonna have to agree with Hadrian Emrys; it wouldn't hurt to have it, but healing before death sounds like a better option to me.

[AmberVael]

Seeing as how it's not exactly a heal spell, I agree. I doubt it'd break the game any to have one's body rot slower regardless of the magic type to do the deed. I know I'd sleep better with a bard around with a "cure minor" on hand than I would with a primary caster with repose. :smalltongue:

"Yay, my corpse will at least look pretty when it gets buried?
...assuming I don't get hacked and mutilated before I die?"

[TempusCCK]

Gentle Repose isn't something you prepare daily, that's something you prepare tomorrow because Smashgar the Smasher is going to bite the dust tonight and you don't want him stinking up the place befor eyou can head back to town.

[shadow_archmagi]

Shame gentle repose only works on corpses. Otherwise it would prevent all ill effects of aging.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

streakster: Let me guess: Know Direction claimed to like you instead. No, you don't need to answer. I can guess. :smallwink:

Collin152: I imagine being kicked out of the house in a hurry the following morning would have been a clue. :smallamused:

LordOfTheDucks: The dead body thread, the Nymph's kiss one, and I think one other. How I managed to be involved in all three discussions is beyond me. My "female" (I prefer to think of it as cross dressing) necromancer avatar might possibly be related somehow. :smallwink:

xNadia: Yeah... one would think a band-aid would be a wiser investment across the board when compared to a coffin. Huh... :smallconfused:

Vael:
Feat: Vain Martyrdom
Prereq: Access to Bardic Music
Benefit: When dropped below -9 hit points, or otherwise killed, your corpse gains a permanant Gentle Repose that cannot be dispelled or suppressed by effects such as an anti-magic field.

TempusCCK: No kidding. If you think a half-orc barbarian smells bad on the outside... -just wait until you smell his spilled INsides. :smalleek: Gentle Repose is the Febreeze of DnD.

[drengnikrafe]

I didn't read the whole thing, just decided I'd put in my 2 cents.

Legend Lore.
"Hey, Guys, Guys, I know why the wizard that is attacking us has a chunk taken out of his ear!"
6th level, too. Am I missing the deeper meaning of this spell?

[Ward.]

I didn't read the whole thing, just decided I'd put in my 2 cents.

Legend Lore.
"Hey, Guys, Guys, I know why the wizard that is attacking us has a chunk taken out of his ear!"
6th level, too. Am I missing the deeper meaning of this spell?

Massive roleplay purposes?

[tyckspoon]

Legend Lore exists for the sole purpose of having your DM throw quest hooks at you. Ideally you get some sagely NPC-type to cast it for you and never have to bother learning or casting it yourself.

[Chronos]

I didn't read the whole thing, just decided I'd put in my 2 cents.

Legend Lore.
"Hey, Guys, Guys, I know why the wizard that is attacking us has a chunk taken out of his ear!"
6th level, too. Am I missing the deeper meaning of this spell?If you're casting Legend Lore while being attacked by the wizard, the important question isn't "Why does this wizard have a chunk out of his ear?", the important question is "Why hasn't this wizard been able to beat us after 1d4*10 minutes of combat?". Believe it or not, there exists a non-combat portion of the game, and Legend Lore is one of those spells you cast during those times (so you can figure out ahead of time which combats to get into).

[Kyeudo]

Creating poisons is probably a bad use since most of the best poisons (IE, the ones that will actually work well at that level) won't be plant matter. Plus, IIRC, the DC for poison crafting is pretty high.
Creating small random objects is most likely going to be a waste of your time and spell slots at this level. Rope? Spider climb or various incapacitating magics. Vegetable oil? Grease or Fireball.
Minor Creation has potential but as we're talking about 'in comparison to its level,' I honestly think the ability to create rope isn't as awe inspiring as say, Improved Invisibility.

That last sentence is my argument for secret chest, too.

I agree that such minor objects are better purchased or covered by other spells by the time Wizards get Minor Creation.

Psions, on the other hand, make Minor Creation look good. It is one of the must have powers for a first level Shaper.

[Draz74]

Gentle Repose isn't something you prepare daily, that's something you prepare tomorrow because Smashgar the Smasher is going to bite the dust tonight and you don't want him stinking up the place befor eyou can head back to town.

Or that you never prepare, but that you always keep on a Scroll in your backpack, just in case.

It's especially useful from levels 9 to 12, when the Cleric can cast Raise Dead but not Resurrection, because of the limits on how long after death Raise Dead can be cast.

[drengnikrafe]

If you're casting Legend Lore while being attacked by the wizard, the important question isn't "Why does this wizard have a chunk out of his ear?", the important question is "Why hasn't this wizard been able to beat us after 1d4*10 minutes of combat?". Believe it or not, there exists a non-combat portion of the game, and Legend Lore is one of those spells you cast during those times (so you can figure out ahead of time which combats to get into).

... Oops. I guess I wasn't reading that as carefully as I thought.
I guess I'm what would would call a "Kick in the Door Blaster" type player, still, and I got a lot to learn. I'll admit that.

[Zeful]

I didn't read the whole thing, just decided I'd put in my 2 cents.

Legend Lore.
"Hey, Guys, Guys, I know why the wizard that is attacking us has a chunk taken out of his ear!"
6th level, too. Am I missing the deeper meaning of this spell?

It's useful for when you can't use scry (no knowledge, no part of them or no name) or contact other plane (no knowledge, or no name) to get information about an NPC.

[Deepblue706]

Halfling's Strength, Kingdoms of Kalamar (3.0 setting). No stats given, but I think you get the point.

[AmberVael]

Vael:
Feat: Vain Martyrdom
Prereq: Access to Bardic Music
Benefit: When dropped below -9 hit points, or otherwise killed, your corpse gains a permanant Gentle Repose that cannot be dispelled or suppressed by effects such as an anti-magic field.

I could totally see a bard taking this. :smallbiggrin:

[Kellus]

My favourite is detect ship, from Stormwrack. :smallsigh:

[Overlord]

I'll bet Pot isn't the drug of choice in D&D.

Spell components are.

Also, I like how people are trashing Legend Lore for having no mechanical value, when, RAW, Prestidigitation has no mechanical effect either, and people sing its praises all the time.

...Then again, Prestidigitation is a Level 0 spell.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I could totally see a bard taking this. :smallbiggrin:

The ability to strike a glamorous pose even when getting croaked? Imagine the stir you could generate with a Perform: Dramatic Death Scene check! I'd be all over it. :smallamused:

[streakster]

Spell components are.

Also, I like how people are trashing Legend Lore for having no mechanical value, when, RAW, Prestidigitation has no mechanical effect either, and people sing its praises all the time.

...Then again, Prestidigitation is a Level 0 spell.

No mechanical effects? Whatchu talkin' bout, Overlord?

Sure, its effects are minor and useless in combat, but they are there and very real. It can lift an item, for example - how's that for mechanical?

[Thoughtbot360]

hooray, you spot the zombie before he catches you, that sneaky bastard.

HEY! Zombies might not be sneaky, but Shadows and Ghosts all kinds of incorporeal crap ambushes you through the freaking walls! ....Get an item with constant Detect undead.

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to shadow_archmagi's point, Gentle Repose would probably be overpowered (at least at really high ages) if it stopped all ageing (I developed 1 spell which does that a while back: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72146 . I agree with Instant Summons being useless (if it was a level 2 spell which didn't need amaterial componant, it would be fine). I'd say Inflict Minor Wounds is the worst spell due to how pointless inflicting 1 HP of damage is (Prestigitation would be really useful if the DM had a rule which stated that the players needed to keep clean to avoid diease).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

HEY! Zombies might not be sneaky, but Shadows and Ghosts all kinds of incorporeal crap ambushes you through the freaking walls! ....Get an item with constant Detect undead.There's a better spell for this. Detect Evil. It also catches dangerous stuff that isn't undead, and lasts for 10 times as long.

[Kami2awa]

I was looking through Sorceror spells today, when I ran into a seventh level spell that I simply couldn't figure out an use for. Some of you may guess it.

That's right. Instant Summons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm)

Let's sum it up. It's a seventh level spell. It requires to use another spell, and a 1000 gp sapphire, and what does it do? You can summon an item to your hand - sounds handy, right? Like, when you lose your spellbook, you can use it to summon a back-up, right?

Not quite. First of all, anything that gets your spellbook - say, for example through Tomb of Horror-esque trick - gets the sapphire. Which is required to summon the item. And which is apparently fragile enough to be crushed by the muscles of a mage.

But hey, this could be handy in a case, say, someone steals your spellbook! Again! But this time, you've inscribed the Arcane Mark on you original spellbook! Now you can do the ha-ha! on your would-be thief!

Right?

Wrong. You can't summon the item if it's in the possession of another creature. I mean, c'mon, what spell could be more filled with suck than that? I honestly can't come up with any remotely useful way of using it. And this is a seventh level spell! For goodness sake. It's right next to Spell Turning and Mage's Magnificent Mansion.

Now, what other sucky spells are out there, completely out of their league and useless?

About the only use of D*****j's Instant Summons I can think of is to avoid carrying a valuable item (more valuable than the sapphire) in case it is stolen. However, this is a very limited use. I've always thought that Instant Summons is a pretty useless spell; if it worked akin to the Harry Potter universe Summoning Charm (draw whatever you want to your hand, even if a long way off, even if the object is chained to a wall) it'd be a lot better.

[shadow_archmagi]

If it didn't cost 1000 gold it'd be decent as well. Change the material component to a small dab of red paint, and I can see an artificer with a belt where he presses a button on it and a magical item appears.

[Neithan]

My favourite is detect ship, from Stormwrack. :smallsigh:
Does ist has a range of 60 feet? :smallbiggrin:

[Jimp]

My favourite is detect ship, from Stormwrack. :smallsigh:

I've used this to detect enemy ships in heavy fog. The ensuing combat was pretty one sided :smallbiggrin:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Does ist has a range of 60 feet? :smallbiggrin:

Not only that, but, with 3 rounds of concentration, it tells you whether said ship within 60ft is a galleon or a pedalo, too.

[Guyinthestreet]

About the only use of D*****j's Instant Summons I can think of is to avoid carrying a valuable item (more valuable than the sapphire) in case it is stolen. However, this is a very limited use. I've always thought that Instant Summons is a pretty useless spell; if it worked akin to the Harry Potter universe Summoning Charm (draw whatever you want to your hand, even if a long way off, even if the object is chained to a wall) it'd be a lot better.

Maybe you could summon a small portable doomsday device that you've been storing in the Plane of Shadows (which activates 30 mins after it's been exposed to sunlight, leaving you enough time to make your getaway). Just my two cents.

[hylian chozo]

About the only use of D*****j's Instant Summons I can think of is to avoid carrying a valuable item (more valuable than the sapphire) in case it is stolen. However, this is a very limited use. I've always thought that Instant Summons is a pretty useless spell; if it worked akin to the Harry Potter universe Summoning Charm (draw whatever you want to your hand, even if a long way off, even if the object is chained to a wall) it'd be a lot better.

Even then, I'd prefer a glove of storing.

[Zeful]

There's a better spell for this. Detect Evil. It also catches dangerous stuff that isn't undead, and lasts for 10 times as long.

Or Detect Law, Detect Chaos, Detect Good...

What? They all function as Detect Evil in relation to undead.

I even (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectLaw.htm) have (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectGood.htm) proof (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectChaos.htm)!

[Worira]

Huh. So it does.

[Trizap]

Dancing Lights

.......need I say more?

[Jimp]

Dancing Lights

.......need I say more?

Dancing Lights is a good spell. See the example of it in OOTS where it was used as a signal to the guards. I've used this spell for the same purpose and for distracting/entertaining npcs.

[Collin152]

Dancing Lights

.......need I say more?

Four hands-free torches?
Are you kidding?

[hylian chozo]

Four hands-free torches?
Are you kidding?

Not to mention the glowing humanoid figure. I once bluffed an NPC into thinking I summoned a ghost. Good times. :smallamused:

[RS14]

Instant summons might be worthwhile for certain very valuable objects. The players are unlikely to ever use it, but any organization ought to prepare to summon anything over ~50,000gp in value, or anything irreplaceable. Sure, it will fail if anyone possesses it, but unless they're sleeping with it, you've got a good shot at getting it back. If nothing else, you can wait a month and hope they've failed to defend it adequately. On the other hand, I'm reading it such that erasing the arcane mark would not foil the spell, but I may be wrong.

Secret Chest might be useful. The replica is nonmagical and tiny (You can even cast shrink item on it), so much easier to sneak into someplace than a bag of holding, and the chest is a focus, so is not lost after the spell is done. Furthermore, it's not an extradimensional space, so can be taken into rope-tricks, bags of holding, and portable holes without danger.
Also, I don't think the wording is inconsistent. If left longer than 60 days, it has a 5% chance of being irretrievably lost. If you lose the replica, you can still mount a successful expedition to locate the chest before 60 days is up and 05 or less is rolled on the percentile dice.

[hr]

I'm sure Speak with Plants (and for that matter, Stone Tell) has some interesting situational uses, but I can't help but laugh at the thought of it. Wary and cunning plant creatures? Favors? Do plants even have an Int score? Well, I guess it makes for some awesome espionage stories.

Inflict Minor Wounds. Seriously? You want to take two standard actions, take up to two attacks of opportunity, and deal 1 point of damage, with a will save!? Has anyone ever used this?

Cheat (Lvl 1), from the Draconomicon, seems very situational. It lets you reroll the outcome of some nonmagical game of chance. As a bonus, it require dice made of human bones as a focus. Pleasant. :smallbiggrin:

[monty]

The only realistic use I can see for Inflict Minor Wounds is healing undead, but that probably doesn't come up too often.

[Solo]

Cheat (Lvl 1), from the Draconomicon, seems very situational. It lets you reroll the outcome of some nonmagical game of chance. As a bonus, it require dice made of human bones as a focus. Pleasant. :smallbiggrin:

What if you used it to affect the outcomes of a game of chance involving dice, wherein you play heroic fantasy figures?

[NEO|Phyte]

What if you used it to affect the outcomes of a game of chance involving dice, wherein you play heroic fantasy figures?

If that's the case, you're clearly the DM.

[Collin152]

What if you used it to affect the outcomes of a game of chance involving dice, wherein you play heroic fantasy figures?

Ah, but this game is clearly tainted by a moste foule magike.

[Charlie Kemek]

Rouse. 1st level spell, wakes up everyone in the party, if they aren't asleep from magic.

[Reinboom]

Rouse has it's situational uses.

Appraising Touch is near worthless - depending on the game.

Battering Ram also feels near worthless, nearly every part of it has a better suited spell for the job.

[holywhippet]

Foresight - it gives you +2 to AC and +2 to reflex saves. Not bad for a 2nd or 3rd level spell, kind of crappy for a level 9 spell. You can use it to warn someone else of imminent danger, which sounds like the kind of thing detect trap is meant for.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Foresight - it gives you +2 to AC and +2 to reflex saves. Not bad for a 2nd or 3rd level spell, kind of crappy for a level 9 spell. You can use it to warn someone else of imminent danger, which sounds like the kind of thing detect trap is meant for.You also are never Flatfooted. Not really that great, unless you have Celerity.:smallwink: This is a vital Batman spell.

[Reinboom]

Foresight - it gives you +2 to AC and +2 to reflex saves. Not bad for a 2nd or 3rd level spell, kind of crappy for a level 9 spell. You can use it to warn someone else of imminent danger, which sounds like the kind of thing detect trap is meant for.

The 'never surprised' and 'never flatfooted' are more important things you seem to have missed.
I don't think it's level 9 worthy, but level 8? Probably.

--Ninja'd!

[Tam_OConnor]

Well, I was going to say goodberry, but then I realized that it provides nourishment equal to a normal meal. Which means that create food and drink, as a 3rd level cleric spell that replicates goodberry to a lesser degree and doesn't heal damage, sucks.

Sepia snake sigil doesn't have the bang of explosive runes, but on looking at it, it actually isn't that bad.

I've never really understood [shadow] spells, except for dedicated illusionists. And even then, why use a spell with clear rules on what it can and can't do?

M's Lucubration seems odd, like FR's anyspell, but not nearly as versatile.

[Solo]

I've never really understood [shadow] spells, except for dedicated illusionists. And even then, why use a spell with clear rules on what it can and can't do?

Greater Shadow Evocation allows your specialist wizard to ban evocation and never look back, and gives the sorcerer more flexibility in his spell choices.

[TheCountAlucard]

I've never really understood [shadow] spells, except for dedicated illusionists. And even then, why use a spell with clear rules on what it can and can't do?

Huh?

Magic Missile has clear rules on what it can and can't do (doesn't damage objects). Fireball has clear rules on what it can and can't do (maximum damage 20d6, explosion creates insignificant amount of pressure). Cure Critical Wounds has clear rules on what it can and can't do (heals living, hurts undead, doesn't affect objects).

With the exception of Miracle and Wish, very few spells are deliberately vague on what they can and can't do.

[Benejeseret]

Virtue

For a mere 4000g item (unslotted, continuous) crafted for 2000g or crafted with artisan feats, usable only by your class (-30% base) with a skill requirement you are good at (-10% base) costs 945g.

For +1 permanent hit points. Not bad for your squishy.

Yes that's a permanent-temporary hitpoint.

[Reinboom]

Fireball has clear rules on what it can and can't do (maximum damage 20d6, explosion creates insignificant amount of pressure).

10d6

And I consider Fireball to even be a little vague.
I mean, who fireballs someone and..

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Has their enemies' coin purses melt?

Although it says

Unattended objects also take this damage.
To clearly indicate objects are unattended, this area is clearly separate. Unless you read them together... in which case, dumping flammable grease on them, then launching fireball on them wouldn't do much - the grease is in possession now.
Sort of.

Also, how little is that small amount of pressure? The spell only says..

The explosion creates almost no pressure.
That's vague. There are cases where almost -any- pressure can change things.

It's not very vague, but it does raise questions. :smalltongue:





Aside, I consider Wish a nearly useless spell - if you are casting it normal, that is.
5000 xp isn't worth it.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, I'm afraid many cantrips are near-worthless. That pretty much includes dancing lights, because its duration is too short to make it a practical torch.

That includes resistance, flare, disrupt undead (because it's actually worse than a crossbow), touch of fatigue (probably), guidance, inflict minor wounds, resistance, virtue, and even know direction (since five ranks in survival do the same trick).

On the other hand, some other cantrips are highly practical (detect magic, mage hand, and so forth) or simply stylish (mending, for instance).

[holywhippet]

When I think about the virtue spell I imagine the following scenario:

player 1: aw, I don't have many HP
player 2: hang on, I'll hit your with a virtue spell
player 1: yay, another HP. Hurrah, hurray, yippee etc.
player 2: .....
player 1: I'm invicible now. Nothing can stand before my wrath.
player 2: .....
player 1: lets go hunt down that black dragon we saw earlier
player 2: <smacks player 1 upside the head>
player 1: NOOOO, my HP!!!

[Turcano]

And I consider Fireball to even be a little vague.
I mean, who fireballs someone and..

Has their enemies' coin purses melt?

I will, now. Because that's incredibly lulzy.

[bugsysservant]

Yeah, I'm afraid many cantrips are near-worthless. That pretty much includes dancing lights, because its duration is too short to make it a practical torch.

HOW CAN YOU HATE DANCING LIGHTS YOU EVIL MONSTER??????

Seriously, the fun of dancing lights isn't in the orbs of light, its in making a glowing humanoid shape. SR? None. Save? None. Spellcraft DC to recognize that the BBEG didn't just summon an invincible monster that's immune to all your weapons and spells? 20. Add in ventriloquism and you have a very credible ghost.

[mabriss lethe]

I've never really understood [shadow] spells, except for dedicated illusionists. And even then, why use a spell with clear rules on what it can and can't do?

As has already been pointed out, unless you're a specialist, they aren't all that useful to a wizard. The shadow spells really shine for sorcerors and bards though. It means you can take one spell that replicates several others. You'll probably still want one or two of the spells it mimics if you use them regularly.

[Chronos]

Yeah, I'm afraid many cantrips are near-worthless.Eh, that's not really a problem, since cantrips are really supposed to be near-worthless. That's why they're cantrips. The notable point is that some of them are actually quite worthwhile after all.

This still doesn't excuse the ones which are in fact completely useless. The only use I can see for Inflict Minor Wounds is to maintain the symmetry on the spell list with the Cure spells (Cure Minor Wounds at least has the advantage that you can stabilize and remove a few minor debuffs with it).

[Burley]

I got a good laugh at this entire thread. Some of the uses thought up are hilarious. I've not much to add, except this, about Instant Summons:

Remember in Indiana Jones, when he's stealing the treasure, and he swaps it with the bag? I don't know how you could forget...he spends six hours wiping the sweat from his brow. Anyways, imagine how much easier his life would have been. He just trods into the temple, but the hard part was his exit, which became hard after setting off the trap.

Forget that! Walk in, Arcane Mark that treasure, walk out. Instant Summons at a same distance.
Oh, Dr. Jones. When will you learn to trust magic? Must you have your still beating heart cut out? Tsk Tsk Tsk, Dr. Jones. The Nazis use it. You can, too.

[TheFlamingHobo]

Matter Manipulation - Psion 8

Increase/Decrease the hardness of an object by up to 5. Costs 250XP per point of hardness.

I can see the practical applications of this, but seriously an 8th level power that costs XP !?

Reflective Disguise

Creatures perceive you as same race and gender. They ruined a good spell by adding that bit in. Still has it's uses though.

Luminous Assasin

What the crap indeed, summon a CR 1, 3, or 5 rogue with a 3rd, 5th and 7th level spell. And since the errata took away the free potions in it's combat gear it's even less useful then ever.

Rouse

This ones weird. Lots of flavour text, but what does it do? Take a look at the spell description. That's right it does NOTHING.

[TheCountAlucard]

Reflective Disguise

Creatures perceive you as same race and gender. They ruined a good spell by adding that bit in. Still has it's uses though.

Yeah, like if you're trying to sneak into the Drow college's girls' locker room. :smallredface:

[Solo]

Yeah, like if you're trying to sneak into the Drow college's girls' locker room. :smallredface:

Ozymandias would like to point out that they get a will save if they 'interact' with you.

[Collin152]

Ozymandias would like to point out that they get a will save if they 'interact' with you.

By then it's too late.

[streakster]

By then it's too late.

For you.

In America!

[Nebo_]

Rouse

This ones weird. Lots of flavour text, but what does it do? Take a look at the spell description. That's right it does NOTHING.

For those of you who lack PHBII, here is the mechanical text of the spell:

This spell has no effect on creatures that are unconscious due to being reduced to negative hit points, or that have taken nonlethal damage in excess of their current hit points.

Yep, that one's a keeper.

[Helgraf]

I remember a one-shot evil party my group once played.. We had an overweight goblin sorcerer who had a constant Tenser's Floating Disc effect to sustain his bloated body - his legs were crippled and couldn't. Pretty visually impressive concept in it's own freaky way, I guess (think Baron Harkonnen).

As for the topic: I always thought Nystul's Magic Aura was pretty lame. Ditto on Tenser's Floating Disc, Misdirection (2nd level spell for something so ludicrously situational?), Fire Trap (it's a nice idea, but 1d4+1/level on a 4th level spell that you can't even cast directly at something?) and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (OK, not 100% useless, but has anyone used this? Seriously?).

Umm, Rary's Mnemonic worthless?

Cast the spell just after memorizing it. It's 3rd level pearl of power in a box. Cast any of your 3rd level or lower spells and get it right back. It's most efficent for a 3rd level spell, sure, but if you really need to have another casting of invisibility, for example, bam, you have it. It's a versatility spell.

Or the prepare version : Prepare an extra 3 levels of spells during memorization. In this case, you're best using it for at least two spells so that it's more efficent than just prepping a lower level spell in a higher level slot. But an extra 2nd and 1st or an extra 2nd and 2 0ths, or 3 extra 1sts ... that can be damn useful. Especially when you first get access to level 4 spells and have all of two to choose from.

Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer may lose its shine when you get high enough level sure, but it's an excellent asset for the 7th to 10th level wizard.

[Helgraf]

For those of you who lack PHBII, here is the mechanical text of the spell:

This spell has no effect on creatures that are unconscious due to being reduced to negative hit points, or that have taken nonlethal damage in excess of their current hit points.

Yep, that one's a keeper.

Some people get ambushed while they're resting. And the scout on duty fails his Spot/Listen checks. Sometimes you're fortunate that the cleric helping out is awake and can rouse the party around the campfire rather than hoping the DM gives them a check they can succeed at to wake up before their throats are cut.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Some people get ambushed while they're resting. And the scout on duty fails his Spot/Listen checks. Sometimes you're fortunate that the cleric helping out is awake and can rouse the party around the campfire rather than hoping the DM gives them a check they can succeed at to wake up before their throats are cut.WE'RE UNDER ATTACK!!!

There, I just saved you both a spell slot and a standard action. :smallcool:

[Helgraf]

WE'RE UNDER ATTACK!!!

There, I just saved you both a spell slot and a standard action. :smallcool:

Let me bold the part of my original post that matters here.



Some people get ambushed while they're resting. And the scout on duty fails his Spot/Listen checks. Sometimes you're fortunate that the cleric helping out is awake and can rouse the party around the campfire rather than hoping the DM gives them a check they can succeed at to wake up before their throats are cut.

As, for instance, you've got a DM whose interpretation is that since you're asleep, your Listen checks are at a -10 penalty (or worse), so even the DC 0 for someone screaming bloody murder now isn't guaranteed to wake you up.

Or they insist on a Fortitude or Will save for you to wake up with no modifier based on the volume of the noise.

[Sludge-o-matic]

I have my doubts on Sculpt Sound. I mean, I don´t think it was made for battle usage, but... the only reason I will ever use that spell is to bug off another caster.

I´m not sure if is an awful spell (as a matter of fact, it may be decent for a bard spell ) but I seriously believe it was made for combat

I mean...there is no reason to sculpt sounds when :

a) the range is close, so everybody...
b) HEARS you casting, because as a bard spell, yes, has verbal components. So if you see a box talking spontaneously when a guy started to play lute and singing , I think that you should suspect a little.

(However, I know about the range increment, but...to me...it doesn´t cut it yet . Looks pretty obvious )

So you cannot make "ghost sound, improved" so easily (unless somebody awfully fails some spot and listen checks), and I really think that was "the pure heart" of the spell, not making an enemy spellcaster look like a baritone.

another one with very limited use to me is Secret Page (nothing personal against the Bard 3 level spells). I´d be happier thinking that the DM is not so insane to force the party to cast true seeing spells and comprehending languages on a book so THEN they can really learn the proper way to save the world... than just revealing it plainly when the found the damned book?

And yes, of course, the explosive runes on the secret page make a wonderful joke, but I really think it doesn´t cut it either . But the limited usage (Very limited to me) might work.

pd: about gentle repose, from the srd:

"Additionally, this spell makes transporting a fallen comrade more pleasant"

[Sstoopidtallkid]

As, for instance, you've got a DM whose interpretation is that since you're asleep, your Listen checks are at a -10 penalty (or worse), so even the DC 0 for someone screaming bloody murder now isn't guaranteed to wake you up.

Or they insist on a Fortitude or Will save for you to wake up with no modifier based on the volume of the noise.Yell it twice. Or 3 times. Talking is a standard action, and shouting like a maniac during combat is kind of natural. I'd object to the DM requiring any kind of save, though, and point out Nascar if he persists.

Plus, are you honestly telling me that something that situational is worth a slot?

[Sludge-o-matic]

I don´t know exactly the effects of rouse (I´m pretty lazy to get the PH II now), so please tell me that does not only awake the party but also does get them prepared to resist the attack instantaneously in the same moment. If not, I wouldn´t even consider it moderately serious. (I mean, the cleric NOT SLEEPING? How does he recover the spells then?)
It may be a nifty trick ,but nothing is good as a big ,strong, and desperate yell. Shouting is a free action, I guess. (or may be a swift one)

[koldstare]

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Thats why you play a warforged (or outsider) cleric. NEVER sleep again. I personally use that time to make magic items. Who needs downtime?

[TheFlamingHobo]

Sometimes you're fortunate that the cleric helping out is awake and can rouse the party

I think your missing the point. Rouse isn't worth the action because it doesn't do anything. Nothing at all.

Yelling is more useful since theres at least a chance that your DM will give you a listen check to wake up (even with heavy penalties).

Look closely at the description of the spell, try and find the mechanic that wakes your party up. You won't 'cause it doesn't exist.

[Chronos]

I have my doubts on Sculpt Sound. I mean, I don´t think it was made for battle usage, but... the only reason I will ever use that spell is to bug off another caster.No, you don't cast it during combat. You cast it before combat, and hopefully don't have to enter combat at all. It's like Invisibility, only for hearing instead of vision. And it's superior to Silence, because you only have to cast it on the party, not everything within 15 feet (which can still tip off the guards you're sneaking past, if they notice the abrupt cessation of ambient noise), plus it doesn't necessarily stop the party spellcasters from casting their own spells, if needed. The fact that you can also use it to cripple an enemy spellcaster just makes it more versatile, and is the icing on the cake.

One I don't understand, and which seems to have a lot of fans, is Daze. I can use up one of my own actions, in exchange for a chance that one of the enemy loses an action, too. Even if he doesn't save, all we've done is trade actions. Yeah, it's only a 0th-level spell, but even from a cantrip, I expect it to be better for me to cast it on an enemy, than for the enemy to cast it on me.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

One I don't understand, and which seems to have a lot of fans, is Daze. I can use up one of my own actions, in exchange for a chance that one of the enemy loses an action, too. Even if he doesn't save, all we've done is trade actions. Yeah, it's only a 0th-level spell, but even from a cantrip, I expect it to be better for me to cast it on an enemy, than for the enemy to cast it on me.

Technically, you get a move action that he doesn't, however daze exists as the stable of D&D, the party versus the thing that can take them all on at once.

CR Bear has full attack actions that kill a fighter: Solution, Wizard dazes it, Fighter hits it, Cleric hits it, Rogue hits it from flanking. Problem solved.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'll nominate Erase. Yes, you can get rid of explosive runes, but you'd have to know they're explosive runes first, and once you find out, its a bit too late.

[Chronos]

CR Bear has full attack actions that kill a fighter: Solution, Wizard dazes it, Fighter hits it, Cleric hits it, Rogue hits it from flanking. Problem solved....Bear then full attacks the fighter and kills him, since he's not a humanoid and therefore not subject to Daze.

Really, how many humanoids of 4 HD or less are there, whose actions are actually worth more than the wizard's? And not only worth more, but worth enough more to justify the chance of saving versus a level 0 spell's DC?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

...Bear then full attacks the fighter and kills him, since he's not a humanoid and therefore not subject to Daze.

Really, how many humanoids of 4 HD or less are there, whose actions are actually worth more than the wizard's? And not only worth more, but worth enough more to justify the chance of saving versus a level 0 spell's DC?

Replace Bear with Giant. There are enough Giants with less then 4HD. And what about when you run out of First level spells only to run into a Wizard who hasn't? Suddenly your actions for his seems a good trade.

Yes Daze is mostly useless, just like Sleep is mostly useless, at any level 3 and up, it's not really worth it because of the HD cap. It's a spell for low level games, where running out of spells is possible, the dice matter more then the modifiers and you can throw around 0th level spells both because you have to, and because there is a pretty good chance of succeeding.

[Collin152]

Replace Bear with Giant. There are enough Giants with less then 4HD. And what about when you run out of First level spells only to run into a Wizard who hasn't? Suddenly your actions for his seems a good trade.

Yes Daze is mostly useless, just like Sleep is mostly useless, at any level 3 and up, it's not really worth it because of the HD cap. It's a spell for low level games, where running out of spells is possible, the dice matter more then the modifiers and you can throw around 0th level spells both because you have to, and because there is a pretty good chance of succeeding.

Giants are Giants, not humanoids.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Giants are Giants, not humanoids.

Curse you types. Then it serves the only purpose of being an offensive spell when you run out of first level spells. But it still serves that purpose. Personally, I try to avoid playing games at any level where Daze would work, but if you have to play a level 1 game it's your best Cantrip for offense.

[Collin152]

Curse you types. Then it serves the only purpose of being an offensive spell when you run out of first level spells. But it still serves that purpose. Personally, I try to avoid playing games at any level where Daze would work, but if you have to play a level 1 game it's your best Cantrip for offense.

I've used Daze once as a level 1 Beguiler.
The poor thing died before it could run away thanks to that.

[kjones]

Yeah, I only recently realized the "Daze only affects humanoids" bit. Until that point, my party had been throwing it around all over the place.

Also, w.r.t Rouse - That seems mostly like a case of poor editing on their part, or a failure to realize that flavor text != mechanics.

[Sholos]

On Rouse:

Let's assume for the moment that the writers meant to include waking the party in the mechanics.

As for the utility of it, a silenced Rouse could be very useful in not alerting sneaky enemies. Also, shouting doesn't necessarily wake people up. Especially not if they're in the 4th level of sleep (where pretty much nothing wakes them up). Even if it does, they're going to be groggy for a bit. Rouse takes care of that.

What's the range of Rouse?

[Collin152]

I refuse to acknowledge a spell that is only useful when you get ambushed.
In any other case, even create water will work better, you know. At least it serves other purposes.

[Nebo_]

On Rouse:

Let's assume for the moment that the writers meant to include waking the party in the mechanics.


You missed the point. It would be a useful spell if they had included that, but they didn't. Thus, the spell is useless.

[FlyMolo]

Virtue

For a mere 4000g item (unslotted, continuous) crafted for 2000g or crafted with artisan feats, usable only by your class (-30% base) with a skill requirement you are good at (-10% base) costs 945g.

For +1 permanent hit points. Not bad for your squishy.

Yes that's a permanent-temporary hitpoint.

So is that like DR 1/-, stacks with everything? Because it comes back as soon as it goes? Or does it mean you're unkillable, because you'll always have the temp hitpoint? Or is it like FH 1, which is cool?

[John Campbell]

Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (OK, not 100% useless, but has anyone used this? Seriously?).

Rary's mnemonic enhancer is nowhere near as useless as it looks at first glance. The Retain function is pretty useless - the time limit is too short, the casting time too long - but the Prepare function can be very useful. Note that its duration (well, it's technically Instantaneous - I think specifically so that you can't Extend it - but its duration for all intents and purposes) is considerably longer than the time it takes to rest and prepare spells. That means that if you have sufficient safe prep time before going into trouble, you can use it to... basically time-shift a bunch of your spell slots.

Not long ago, my fighter-wizard was in a situation where we knew that we were going to be facing two major - as in campaign-ending, final-boss - encounters in close succession, with a series of smaller ones in between (ended up being six or seven of the smaller ones, as I recall, most of them rather below our power level, but not so far below that we could just wipe the floor with them without spending magic and other resources to beat them), and, while we had some flexibility in when we went out to face that first encounter, once we did, we'd have no time to stop and rest until we'd beaten the last one or died trying.

So we took a day of downtime to prepare beforehand. I prepped Rary's mnemonic enhancer in every single spell slot I had of 4th level or higher that day, and then spent an hour and a half casting it repeatedly before going to sleep. When I woke up the next morning, I prepared my usual allotment of new spells, including re-filling all those slots I'd used for mnemonic enhancer with other things... and still had another 14 hours or so before the 27 extra levels of spells I'd prepared the night before with mnemomic enhancer started expiring. And those 27 extra levels of spells made the difference between my still having spells left for that last encounter, and my being reduced to doing nothing but hitting things with my axe... and that very probably made the difference between us winning and us all dying. (We came very close to all dying as it was.)

This is not a strategy without risk - if we'd been jumped unexpectedly during that day of prep time, I had absolutely nothing above 3rd level available to cast - but, in the right circumstances, the payoff can be pretty significant.

Note also that you can use it to make scrolls or wands of Any Spell Of 3rd Level Or Lower That I Know, if you've got ten minutes to spare to use it. Because of the casting time, it's not much good for combat encounters that you weren't properly prepared for, and it's more expensive than specific-spell items, but it's also way more flexible... you can make just one item to cover any number of rarely useful but occasionally nearly required non-combat spells. Or even combat spells, if you can take that ten minute break once you've realized what you're up against, but before you head in to actually face it.

[Chronos]

Personally, I try to avoid playing games at any level where Daze would work, but if you have to play a level 1 game it's your best Cantrip for offense.In most situations, I'd rather have Ghost Sound. Footsteps around the corner; "Hey, guys, here come the reinforcements! What took you so long?". Yeah, it might not work, but if it does, it'll work a lot better than Daze.

Or there's always this one:


Shoot crossbow
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 0, Fighter 0
Components: S, M, F
Range: 800 feet
Effect: One bolt
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A crossbow bolt flies toward your target. You must succeed on a ranged attack roll to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d8 points of piercing damage

Material component: A crossbow bolt.
Focus: A light crossbow.

Special: This spell does not require a spell slot.

[NEO|Phyte]

Or there's always this one:

I'd use it. No penalty for range increments? Totally there.

[Collin152]

But.. then I can't shoot into an AMF.
I'll just use my mundane crossbow, even though I can't empower it.

[Sholos]

You missed the point. It would be a useful spell if they had included that, but they didn't. Thus, the spell is useless.

So we agree that if we aren't obsessed about RAW and take the spell the way it was clearly meant to operate that the spell is useful? Good then.

[streakster]

So we agree that if we aren't obsessed about RAW and take the spell the way it was clearly meant to operate that the spell is useful? Good then.

So, if we make up an imaginary spell based on what we think the designers might have thought, its useful? Good then.

[Nebo_]

So we agree that if we aren't obsessed about RAW and take the spell the way it was clearly meant to operate that the spell is useful? Good then.

Yes, exactly.

[Sholos]

No. It's pretty obvious what the spell is supposed to do. It's not like taking fireball and applying real-life physics to it. It's taking the spell and fixing it to what it was obviously intended to do.

Is everyone really that anal about RAW?

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Nebo_]

No. It's pretty obvious what the spell is supposed to do. It's not like taking fireball and applying real-life physics to it. It's taking the spell and fixing it to what it was obviously intended to do.

Is everyone really that anal about RAW?

EDIT: Ninja'd

I'm not that anal about RAW, I don't think anyone is (that's a lie, I can think of people who are), but I just think it's kind of stupid to not include a spell's effects in its description.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Or there's always this one:

So you'd rather make an attack role at +3 against the AC of 13-16 in order to do 1d8 damage to the Wizard who is going to sleep your whole party then hit him with a DC 14-15 will save against his +1-+2 mod to have him just stand there until the fighter can make an attack at +5-6 that will do a minimum of 7 damage?

Personally, at level 1, I'll take the better odds, even if it does all come down to dice rolls.

[Nebo_]

So you'd rather make an attack role at +3 against the AC of 13-16 in order to do 1d8 damage to the Wizard who is going to sleep your whole party then hit him with a DC 14-15 will save against his +1-+2 mod to have him just stand there until the fighter can make an attack at +5-6 that will do a minimum of 7 damage?

Personally, at level 1, I'll take the better odds, even if it does all come down to dice rolls.


Note:


Special: This spell does not require a spell slot.

That's pretty nice for a first level wizard who's out of spells.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No. It's pretty obvious what the spell is supposed to do. It's not like taking fireball and applying real-life physics to it. It's taking the spell and fixing it to what it was obviously intended to do.

Is everyone really that anal about RAW?No, but without a "baseline DM" to compare against, everyone's DM will apply some (subtly different) houserules, and we are therefore forced to assume RAW is the standard and all deviations from it, no matter how small, are houserules that cannot be assumed for any campaign. Also, again, this is a spell with a verbal component that will only wake someone when they are in a situation where shouting would work just as well. Even assuming that you houserule that this spell actually does what it's intended to do, why is it worth anything resembling a spell slot? If you prepare it, and if you are ambushed while asleep, and if the cleric is awake, and if the entire sleeping party is within 10 feet of each other, then your spell can duplicate the effects of a successful listen check for them. I probably wouldn't even take that as an orison. Sorry, but no.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

So we agree that if we aren't obsessed about RAW and take the spell the way it was clearly meant to operate that the spell is useful? Good then.

I don't agree. It's not worth a spell slot and a standard action for something that can be done with a free action and no slot, even if the spell does have some minor benefits. I also don't prepare Mount for the same reason, I can walk if I want.

Cast Alarm if it's that important to you, or one of the hundred and two variants of that spell. Rouse just isn't on the list of things to actually prepare.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

That's pretty nice for a first level wizard who's out of spells.

Right, but as long as I still have 0th level spells, I can think of lots of situations (at low levels where the HD cap doesn't come up) in which Daze is just better.

[Hefty Lefty]

(Chronos:)
Shoot crossbow
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 0, Fighter 0
Components: S, M, F
Range: 800 feet
Effect: One bolt
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A crossbow bolt flies toward your target. You must succeed on a ranged attack roll to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d8 points of piercing damage

Material component: A crossbow bolt.
Focus: A light crossbow.

Special: This spell does not require a spell slot.

Did I miss the memo where fighters gained spells???

[Collin152]

(Chronos:)
Shoot crossbow
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 0, Fighter 0
Components: S, M, F
Range: 800 feet
Effect: One bolt
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A crossbow bolt flies toward your target. You must succeed on a ranged attack roll to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d8 points of piercing damage

Material component: A crossbow bolt.
Focus: A light crossbow.

Special: This spell does not require a spell slot.

Did I miss the memo where fighters gained spells???

And I seem to recall Rogues using crossbows much more often than fighters.

[Solo]

So we agree that if we aren't obsessed about RAW and take the spell the way it was clearly meant to operate that the spell is useful? Good then.

And you know how this spell was clearly meant to operate?

[Worira]

LAUNCH BOLT
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One crossbow bolt in your
possession
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The crossbow bolt in your hand glows a bright red, then flies off at your foe. You cast this spell on a crossbow
bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you
had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged
attack roll. The bolt has a range increment of 80
feet. Any properties of the crossbow bolt (such as magical
abilities, masterwork quality, and so on) or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon
Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply. Drawing a bolt for this spell is a free action.
Material Component: The crossbow
bolt to be fired (1 sp).

From the SpC.

In related news, colossal crossbow bolts deal 6d6 damage.

[Chronos]

From the SpC.Wow, and here I thought I was joking.

[Ascension]

From the SpC.

In related news, colossal crossbow bolts deal 6d6 damage.

Emphasis mine.

Talk about cantrip abuse... that's eeeeeeevil! :smallamused:

[Yahzi]

Rouse. 1st level spell, wakes up everyone in the party, if they aren't asleep from magic.
Who memorizes that?

"Hey guys, I can use a first level spell to do the same thing I can do with my voice."

:smallbiggrin:


Also, shouting doesn't necessarily wake people up.
It certainly wakes up professional soldiers on a combat mission.

The idea that you could stand in a camp of Green Berets on active combat duty and shout, and they wouldn't all wake up and shoot you, is... strange. And what are adventurers if not elite warriors?

[Patashu]

Tenser's Floating Disk.

It's useful on a MUD I play in; it carries loot around for you so less strong members of the party aren't inconvenienced and it can be shared by a party.

[_Zoot_]

The idea that you could stand in a camp of Green Berets on active combat duty and shout, and they wouldn't all wake up and shoot you, is... strange. And what are adventurers if not elite warriors?

I really do have to agree with this, it really is kind of stupid to think that people that make a living by killing monsters wouldn't have considerd that they might be attacked at night and should probaly be ready to defend them selves.

[Kurald Galain]

I've used Daze once as a level 1 Beguiler.
The poor thing died before it could run away thanks to that.

Me too, actually. Locking down an enemy isn't useless. It's hardly the best thing you can do, but a 1st-level beguiler can run out of 1st-level spells.

[Nychta]

In relation to rouse:
I didn't know it existed, but heck, it seems like a stupid spell to me. I don't play a wizard at the moment, but I can guarantee that our wizard wouldn't say "Well, we're going to have to camp tonight, so I'll use a spell slot to prepare a spell that would only be useful if I can't talk and if I somehow wake up first if and when we're attacked."

Just... can't see it.

[Ward.]

Who memorizes that?

"Hey guys, I can use a first level spell to do the same thing I can do with my voice."

:smallbiggrin:


Or don't tell them about it, speand all night waking your fellow party members :smallbiggrin:



It certainly wakes up professional soldiers on a combat mission.

The idea that you could stand in a camp of Green Berets on active combat duty and shout, and they wouldn't all wake up and shoot you, is... strange. And what are adventurers if not elite warriors?

I now this is just nit picking, but I thought I'd point out that a portion of rag - tag groups of adventurers are far from elite warriors.

[Khanderas]

I now this is just nit picking, but I thought I'd point out that a portion of rag - tag groups of adventurers are far from elite warriors.
PC class levels sets them apart from the rest of the world, even moreso in 4ed, if half of what I heard is true.
They may be a ragtag band at level 1, possibly 2. But after that they kill things in their groups of 3-4 that 50 commoners would have no chance against. This while wearing equipment that is worth more then many small villages.

[Sholos]

I'll say it again. A silenced Rouse could have very good uses, like not drawing attention to the magic user. Low level wizards don't tend to survive lots of attention all that well.

[Solo]

I'll say it again. A silenced Rouse could have very good uses, like not drawing attention to the magic user. Low level wizards don't tend to survive lots of attention all that well.

So it's not bad enough that this spell is only useful in a narrow range of situations; now we must metamagic it so that it takes up a higher spell slot!

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I'll say it again. A silenced Rouse could have very good uses, like not drawing attention to the magic user. Low level wizards don't tend to survive lots of attention all that well.

I'd rather just Web the invaders, then wake up my teammates at my leisure, then we can set the web on fire and butcher them.

[Jastermereel]

About Rouse:

It would have been handy a few weeks ago in my group. Several team members had infiltrated an enemy camp but, unknown to them (thank you, failed Sense Motive check!) their cover was blown. That night, when their tent was attacked, the Paladin was awake and engaged in combat but was unable to wake the Fighter (lousy listen checks).

We had to ignore the Coup de Grace rules that night. Rouse would have been handy indeed.

[John Campbell]

That sounds to me less like a recommendation for rouse and more like a condemnation of the 3.x skill system, wherein generally only about a quarter of the party is capable of handling the complex and esoteric arts of "seeing" and "hearing".

[Solo]

About Rouse:

It would have been handy a few weeks ago in my group. Several team members had infiltrated an enemy camp but, unknown to them (thank you, failed Sense Motive check!) their cover was blown. That night, when their tent was attacked, the Paladin was awake and engaged in combat but was unable to wake the Fighter (lousy listen checks).

We had to ignore the Coup de Grace rules that night. Rouse would have been handy indeed.

So, what spell slot would you have your wizard give up to prepare Rouse?

[Jastermereel]

That sounds to me less like a recommendation for rouse and more like a condemnation of the 3.x skill system, wherein generally only about a quarter of the party is capable of handling the complex and esoteric arts of "seeing" and "hearing".

Admittedly, while the character isn't crippled, it was reasonably played. This player's PCs aren't the most observant or wise. In his prior life he did a spot on imitation of Leroy Jenkins (without having seen the clip). It was a combination of bad luck and character weaknesses.


So, what spell slot would you have your wizard give up to prepare Rouse?

Don't ask me. I'm playing a monk:smalltongue:

We didn't have a wizard present at the time and he wouldn't have slotted that spell (though he might do so after that incident), but it would have been useful then. Not really useful, but better than goodberry. That's all I'm saying.

[Solo]

We didn't have a wizard present at the time and he wouldn't have slotted that spell (though he might do so after that incident)

If he does, you owe it to yourself to lay the smack down on him for wasting an all day spell slot on something that is 1) only going to be useful at night on the off chance that there is an ambush, and even then only because 2) your wizard is awake

[Kyeudo]

We didn't have a wizard present at the time and he wouldn't have slotted that spell (though he might do so after that incident), but it would have been useful then. Not really useful, but better than goodberry. That's all I'm saying.

Goodberry is actualy one of the better low level healing spells when it comes to efficiency and a good source of food on long trips. Quite nice. The only thing that prevents it from being awesome is the limit of only 8hp healed per person per day.

[valadil]

I don't know what lists rouse is in, but if classes like beguiler get it automatically, I could see it getting used. It should really be a cantrip though. It's also one of those spells that depends on the GM. I've had GMs who require listen checks for waking up during nighttime random encounters. If wisdom is your dump stat you can miss out on a whole combat.

[TempusCCK]

Any Dm that forces a listen check to hear loud screaming for help deserves to be flogged. With A brick.

Liberal application of brick solves any problem.

Honestly though, who in their right mind would have you roll listen for someone screaming in your camp. For the love of all that is holy, I mean, loud yelling from 20 feet away, at most, and he forces a listen check. There is no term that's allowed on this message board to describe how utterly stupid that DM must be.

[DrowVampyre]

Tip for those who have people that won't wake up for combat: obviously, these characters are deaf...however, you could always do like my old group. Get yourself some twine, string it around the group to everyone's wrist/finger/something they'll feel (be as cruel as you like). If an ambush happens, the guy on watch yanks the cord hard...everyone gets up. ^_-

Also, show them the Listen DCs. A battle has a DC -10. A sleeping character gets -10 to their check. A -1 penalty per 10 feet applies. Which means that anyone with a Wisdom of 12 or greater -automatically- hears a battle, while asleep, at 20 feet.

[Craig1f]

Any Dm that forces a listen check to hear loud screaming for help deserves to be flogged. With A brick.

Liberal application of brick solves any problem.

Honestly though, who in their right mind would have you roll listen for someone screaming in your camp. For the love of all that is holy, I mean, loud yelling from 20 feet away, at most, and he forces a listen check. There is no term that's allowed on this message board to describe how utterly stupid that DM must be.

Are you kidding? I've yelled at people to wake them up before, to no effect. That's what the listen rules are for when you're asleep.

There's also the possibility that you want to wake up your team without being obvious about it. If you yell, then the enemy attacks immediately. If the beguiler casts a silenced, still rouse spell, everyone wakes up immediately and the enemy wastes a surprise round.

[valadil]

Honestly though, who in their right mind would have you roll listen for someone screaming in your camp. For the love of all that is holy, I mean, loud yelling from 20 feet away, at most, and he forces a listen check. There is no term that's allowed on this message board to describe how utterly stupid that DM must be.

I've slept through some pretty heavy duty fire alarms myself. I find it believable that I'd sleep through someone screaming too. Even if you do hear the screaming and wake up, are you going to hop up and be on your feet in the next 6 seconds?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) Is rouse on the Beguiler list?

If the answer is no, then no one should ever cast the spell, ever.

2) As regards Silenced Rouse, incredibly situational, only a Beguiler should ever even have a chance to do it, and he's still better off casting Web/Glitterdust/whatever the level 2 AoE Beguiler disable is and waking his team the old fashioned way.

3) I'm assuming that we are talking lower then level 5 here, because if you care that much to devote a spell slot every day to something that is only situationally useful, and doesn't even help much with that one situation, you'll just cast Rope Trick instead.

4) I have poor hearing, relative to most other awake people. I also awake at:

a) A soft knock on the door
b) anyone coming into my room
c) anyone yelling my name from anywhere in the house
d) my phone ringing
e) any alarm clock
f) other people making noises of comparable volume

I have apparently trained myself to awake at the slightest provocation. I am not an Adventurer who is likely to be jumped in the night, and likely to be prepared for it. I also don't even need anything as loud as yelling.

To me, the idea that anyone who would risk their life sleeping in the wild on a regular basis would not have trained themselves to awaken at the sound of a scream is patently ridiculous.

[Kurald Galain]

1) Is rouse on the Beguiler list?

Yes, but they call it Ghost Sound :smalltongue:

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Yes, but they call it Ghost Sound :smalltongue:

So in other words, no one should ever cast this spell for any reason.

[John Campbell]

I've slept through some pretty heavy duty fire alarms myself. I find it believable that I'd sleep through someone screaming too. Even if you do hear the screaming and wake up, are you going to hop up and be on your feet in the next 6 seconds?

IME, if I'm startled awake - and a sudden loud noise that I can't immediately classify as non-threatening will do that - I'm not only up on my feet instantly, but I'm in guard, with the ol' lizard brain in full fight-or-flight mode and wringing everything it can get out of the adrenal glands. This is, note, more or less independent of the thinky parts of my brain being sufficiently with it to make a coherent assessment of the situation. It might take a few seconds, or even as much as a minute or two, to get up to speed in that department, but that mainly just means that my threat assessment is wonky and I'm not going to be forming any complex strategies for the duration. The actual fighty part is pretty much all the lizard brain anyway.

And I don't even really need that capability. I've had a fair bit of martial arts training, but I've never had to use it For Real, and my life has never depended on being awake and ready to fight quickly and effectively. It's all stuff left over from the plains ape hiding back in the oldest corners of my brain.

Many of my characters, on the other hand, would not have lived to see their Young Adult Age Category without combat reflexes on a much finer hair trigger than mine. My current PC's been living on the streets since he was twelve, and his typical reaction to being woken incautiously is making a grapple check with one hand as he pulls a dagger with the other.

[Collin152]

Yes, but they call it Ghost Sound :smalltongue:

it is, regretably, on the Beguiler list.
I vow never to cast it, though.

[mostlyharmful]

I've slept through some pretty heavy duty fire alarms myself. I find it believable that I'd sleep through someone screaming too. Even if you do hear the screaming and wake up, are you going to hop up and be on your feet in the next 6 seconds?

Yes. I look after children. If you here you're name called in the middle of the night by someone who really really needs you then you wake up. There's even a specific tone that humans are programmed to respond to, it's the one people naturally scream in fear at. And I'm not even a merc who gets jumped by angry green things on a regular basis. And if I knew it was up and at'em or a spear through the brainpan I'd be awake and upright in six seconds Noooooo problem!

[FlyMolo]

I've slept through some pretty heavy duty fire alarms myself. I find it believable that I'd sleep through someone screaming too. Even if you do hear the screaming and wake up, are you going to hop up and be on your feet in the next 6 seconds?

I snap awake by myself, independent of noises. And I can get up and move around pretty coordinatedly right away. I don't think so well for a while, and I'm not THAT coordinated right away, but I'm not even being attacked most mornings. AND I don't have trained reflexes from being an adventurer.

I have been known to snap awake. In fact, I really hate my brother, because he's always sneaking into my room to use the computer early in the morning. The noise of him using the keyboard wakes me up. It's a quiet keyboard too.

[Chronos]

For that matter, even when it's not somebody screaming in panic or swords clashing or whatnot, it also doesn't take much to wake a person up when you're sleeping on the hard ground, with a root poking up right in the middle of your back, and in a sleeping bag that isn't quite warm enough. I've been on enough Scout campouts that I know that.

[Collin152]

For that matter, even when it's not somebody screaming in panic or swords clashing or whatnot, it also doesn't take much to wake a person up when you're sleeping on the hard ground, with a root poking up right in the middle of your back, and in a sleeping bag that isn't quite warm enough. I've been on enough Scout campouts that I know that.

I sleep well enough, when I don't die of hypothermia.

[Aust Xiloscient]

Going all the way back to Drawmjii's instant summons, it is a really bad spell. I spent a really long time trying to think of a use for the spell. The best thing I could think of was to get a weapon past some guards so that you could assassinate someone. Then I realized that if you could cast the spell you wouldn't need a weapon.

[Collin152]

Going all the way back to Drawmjii's instant summons, it is a really bad spell. I spent a really long time trying to think of a use for the spell. The best thing I could think of was to get a weapon past some guards so that you could assassinate someone. Then I realized that if you could cast the spell you wouldn't need a weapon.

May as well dominate the guards at that point.
Or cast Nightmare.

[Sholos]

I like the idea of using it to get something out of somewhere. Take a rogue with good ranks in UMD and a scroll of Instant Summons. Infiltrate into place, cast spell, exfiltrate, grab item.

Of course, there's probably easier ways to do it, but it's neat roleplaying.

[Sixscimitars]

Polar Ray. Hopelessly outclassed by Disintegrate, which deals double damage, comes two levels lower, and deals damage to things with the Cold subtype. The only thing it has on Disintegrate is one save.

[sonofzeal]

Polar Ray. Hopelessly outclassed by Disintegrate, which deals double damage, comes two levels lower, and deals damage to things with the Cold subtype. The only thing it has on Disintegrate is one save.
Agreed, although requiring a save is concidered a substantial balancing aspect. Basically, Disintegrate has two chances to fail - on the attack roll (easy) and on the save (hard). Polar Ray only has one chance to fail, on the attack roll, and touch attacks at that level are pretty easy to hit with. Still, you're right that it should be a spell level or two lower.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Agreed, although requiring a save is concidered a substantial balancing aspect. Basically, Disintegrate has two chances to fail - on the attack roll (easy) and on the save (hard). Polar Ray only has one chance to fail, on the attack roll, and touch attacks at that level are pretty easy to hit with. Still, you're right that it should be a spell level or two lower.

The classic example is to look at the Warmage spell list. They made Polar Ray a 6th level Warmage spell. They did it for a reason too, because at 8th level it sucks.

[Funkyodor]

Instant Summons is one of those 'jack of all trades' spells. You cast it on the sapphire, and the spell lasts until the sapphire is crushed (Permenant until discharged). This means you don't need to memorize it all the time. And from the way I've read it, the arcane mark only needs to be on it when you cast the spell. Also if someone has the item, it works like a Discern Location, and as a side benefit bypasses any protection because it is a conjuration spell.

As to what you'd want to Instant Summons insure with a 1,000 gp replacement? I have no idea. Maybe something you wouldn't carry around because of it's volatile nature? Like 15,000 gp invested into a Necklace of Fireballs (100D6) stored in a nice Arcane Marked pouch.

[Aquillion]

Two nice things about Instant Summons: It has no restrictions on the type of item you put it on (beyond size and nonliving), and works across planes. So you could use it on an artifact, even, which could be very useful with a few dangerous / plot-specific things (throw the dangerous MacGuffin onto a plane where nobody can possible reach it, and it's perfectly safe -- whatever corrupting / dangerous influence it has won't hurt you, but you can get it back instantly, and nobody else can because the gem only works for you. And even if someone does manage to get it, the gem will at least give you an unbeatable ID on the culprit, so it provides another layer of security for what amounts to a pretty cheap price at the level you can cast it.)

That's a very, very narrow situation, yes, but as far as I can tell it's a situation where Instant Summons will work better than any other spell there is -- if you want to throw a powerful unique object someplace where nobody else can get it, period, and still have a way of getting it back yourself in an absolute emergency without compromising security, Instant Summons is the way to go.

I'd say that even that very limited, theoretical usage is more than some of the really awful spells out there have... one ring knockoffs might not appear in every single game, but they're common enough to make a strategy for beating them fairly useful.

[Sludge-o-matic]

Heh. I remember a pretty old game (like 94, 95, that time), Realms Of Arkania (based on Die Schwarze auge, a german rpg) . When you got attacked at night... only the one who was awake at the time of the assault could participate ...and yelling was not in the action list (other party members woke up spontaneously or even when attacked) . Rouse could be pretty handy that time.
That brings some memories man...


Consecrate seems lame to me. You´ve got to sprinkle the area with gp and holy water before, and usually zombies don´t pop up to that area out from nowhere.

and I don´t unterstand contigency.I mean the usefulness. The spell definition is confusing , innacurate and I´d never seen it cast before by anybody. So actually, I don´t really know what it does exactly, but I figure is not worth a 6 lvl spot.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Contingency is very useful. If someone with hostile intent towards me is within 50', cast Hold Person. It's a trademark of the Batman Wizard.

And consecrate is good if you are preparing to defend somewhere. Like Nauseating Circle, it's not always viable, but if you don't need it don't prep it, and if you expect to, then use it. Maybe make it a scroll or something.

[Sludge-o-matic]

(thanks. Party ´s Initiate of Veil hardly pulls out stuff like that . He sticks on desintegrating , flying while invisible and protected with a lot of veils)

And I haven´t thought as consecrate like that. As a bunch of nomad adventurers, we rarely stay two days in a city or shrine expecting undead attacks.

[DrowVampyre]

Two nice things about Instant Summons: It has no restrictions on the type of item you put it on (beyond size and nonliving), and works across planes. So you could use it on an artifact, even, which could be very useful with a few dangerous / plot-specific things (throw the dangerous MacGuffin onto a plane where nobody can possible reach it, and it's perfectly safe -- whatever corrupting / dangerous influence it has won't hurt you, but you can get it back instantly, and nobody else can because the gem only works for you. And even if someone does manage to get it, the gem will at least give you an unbeatable ID on the culprit, so it provides another layer of security for what amounts to a pretty cheap price at the level you can cast it.)

That's a very, very narrow situation, yes, but as far as I can tell it's a situation where Instant Summons will work better than any other spell there is -- if you want to throw a powerful unique object someplace where nobody else can get it, period, and still have a way of getting it back yourself in an absolute emergency without compromising security, Instant Summons is the way to go.

I'd say that even that very limited, theoretical usage is more than some of the really awful spells out there have... one ring knockoffs might not appear in every single game, but they're common enough to make a strategy for beating them fairly useful.

And thus we understand that the spell was originally called Sauron's Keyfinder.

[Funkyodor]

Yes, Contingency is useful, but...

Contingency is very useful. If someone with hostile intent towards me is within 50', cast Hold Person. It's a trademark of the Batman Wizard.
...

...it cannot work that way. The spell must include the caster in the affect somehow. It is debatable if omnicient knowlege triggers such as "hostile intent" or "target me" can be included. The spell is an evocation spell and shouldn't have divination properties. IMHO, It should only be triggered based on someones actions, not their thoughts.

Regardless, it is a staple of Wizards that desire some ease of mind while strutting their 14-44 HP self around 6 levels before Foresight.

P.S. and the Over Powered Contingency combination is to cast Celerity whenever [INSERT CONTINGENCY HERE]. Then use the Celerity as a way to get around the level 6 spell limit on Contingency, which is just plain wrong.

[Overlord]

LAUNCH BOLT
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One crossbow bolt in your
possession
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The crossbow bolt in your hand glows a bright red, then flies off at your foe. You cast this spell on a crossbow
bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you
had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged
attack roll. The bolt has a range increment of 80
feet. Any properties of the crossbow bolt (such as magical
abilities, masterwork quality, and so on) or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon
Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply. Drawing a bolt for this spell is a free action.
Material Component: The crossbow
bolt to be fired (1 sp).

I believe the 3.0 version of Launch Bolt actually had a use, in that it did not have a range increment: you could hit a target several hundred feet away with no penalty. That almost made up for the fact that you're not making a touch attack.

[senrath]

I believe the 3.0 version of Launch Bolt actually had a use, in that it did not have a range increment: you could hit a target several hundred feet away with no penalty. That almost made up for the fact that you're not making a touch attack.

Launch Bolt is actually pretty good, but only if you're launching, say, colossal bolts. 6d6 damage from a cantrip.

[JoshuaZ]

LAUNCH BOLT
Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One crossbow bolt in your
possession
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The crossbow bolt in your hand glows a bright red, then flies off at your foe. You cast this spell on a crossbow
bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you
had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged
attack roll. The bolt has a range increment of 80
feet. Any properties of the crossbow bolt (such as magical
abilities, masterwork quality, and so on) or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon
Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply. Drawing a bolt for this spell is a free action.
Material Component: The crossbow
bolt to be fired (1 sp).

RAW one could have fun with this if one had eschew material components since the crossbow bolt is a material component. Actually, it is listed in the target also so arguably by RAW the bolt is magically consumed when you cast this.

[TempusCCK]

Wait, how can you be comparing yourselves to adventurers. You're all like, level 1 commoners or Experts at best. Anyone who's above 2nd or 3rd level has seen enough battle to be ready for anything, it's completely inane to think that adventurers won't be ready to hop up and be in a fight, reguardless of whether or not they are sleeping.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Wait, how can you be comparing yourselves to adventurers. You're all like, level 1 commoners or Experts at best. Anyone who's above 2nd or 3rd level has seen enough battle to be ready for anything, it's completely inane to think that adventurers won't be ready to hop up and be in a fight, reguardless of whether or not they are sleeping.

1) Please don't get into that again. That whole, "You can't get higher then level 3 ever, oh and there is no way you have a PC class." thing get's annoying.

I mean, I am clearly a level 4 Wizard, I just happen to be stuck on a dead magic plane without my spellbook.

2) I believe the reason most people compared themselves was precisely to prove the point: IE I wake up at the drop of a damn hat, and I'm not an adventurer. Ergo, Adventurers would be better at waking up then me. Therefore, Clearly someone screaming would awaken his comrades. Therefore, Rouse sucks.

[Aquillion]

Yes, Contingency is useful, but...

...it cannot work that way. The spell must include the caster in the affect somehow. It is debatable if omnicient knowlege triggers such as "hostile intent" or "target me" can be included. The spell is an evocation spell and shouldn't have divination properties. IMHO, It should only be triggered based on someones actions, not their thoughts.

Regardless, it is a staple of Wizards that desire some ease of mind while strutting their 14-44 HP self around 6 levels before Foresight.

P.S. and the Over Powered Contingency combination is to cast Celerity whenever [INSERT CONTINGENCY HERE]. Then use the Celerity as a way to get around the level 6 spell limit on Contingency, which is just plain wrong.Don't forget this line:
If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on.Most people like to overlook it, but it's a very, very serious drawback. It turns complex Contingency plans into something no more reliable than an overstretched Wish... and remember, per RAW you don't learn that your Contingency was too complex until you actually need it and it fails you.

[Kurald Galain]

RAW one could have fun with this if one had eschew material components since the crossbow bolt is a material component.
Well, actually you still need a bolt as the target.

Anyway, I'm reasonbly sure no sane DM would allow you to deal 6d6 damage with a cantrip, and by RAI the spell clearly wasn't meant for giant crossbow bolts.


Wait, how can you be comparing yourselves to adventurers. You're all like, level 1 commoners or Experts at best.
If I count up all my skill points for things I can do reasonably well (or very well, I do have a degree after all), I end up being at least 8th level and at least +3 BAB.

[Chronos]

I mean, I am clearly a level 4 Wizard, I just happen to be stuck on a dead magic plane without my spellbook.As a level 4 Expert, I feel sorry for you. Yes, this is one situation where the NPC class is actually superior to the wizard.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As a level 4 Expert, I feel sorry for you. Yes, this is one situation where the NPC class is actually superior to the wizard.

Yeah, I know. It makes me sad. But at night I dream about being gated to another plane where I will wreak havoc (after a few dedicated grinding sessions that is.)

[senrath]

Well, actually you still need a bolt as the target.

Anyway, I'm reasonbly sure no sane DM would allow you to deal 6d6 damage with a cantrip, and by RAI the spell clearly wasn't meant for giant crossbow bolts.


If I count up all my skill points for things I can do reasonably well (or very well, I do have a degree after all), I end up being at least 8th level and at least +3 BAB.

You still have to hit with an attack roll. And besides, what the heck is the point of the spell if you could only launch regular bolts? That would mean that you are using a spell that performs exactly like a light crossbow, with no bonuses of any kind.

[Collin152]

1) Please don't get into that again. That whole, "You can't get higher then level 3 ever, oh and there is no way you have a PC class." thing get's annoying.

I mean, I am clearly a level 4 Wizard, I just happen to be stuck on a dead magic plane without my spellbook.

2) I believe the reason most people compared themselves was precisely to prove the point: IE I wake up at the drop of a damn hat, and I'm not an adventurer. Ergo, Adventurers would be better at waking up then me. Therefore, Clearly someone screaming would awaken his comrades. Therefore, Rouse sucks.

Is this an interdimesnional forum? Cause my level 3 Bardness is perfectly magical, so this dimension can't be dead-magic.
Maybe it's a low magic setting?

[SimperingToad]

Sad. Truly, truly sad.

I can't believe that everyone has neglected the absolute most useless spell that has ever lacked use. A spell so utterly devoid of any function that it is overcome by it's own inertness. A spell that little children tease for their own sheer, cruel amusement.

Want to know what it is? Well, do ya, do ya, do ya?

It is, of course, the one... you... never... cast! Ooooooooohhh!!!

I am appalled. So appalled that I lack the words to continue on, except to say...

J/K :smallbiggrin:

Regards,
theToad

[Kurald Galain]

You still have to hit with an attack roll. And besides, what the heck is the point of the spell if you could only launch regular bolts?
Because it's a joke spell, duh. It's a friggin' cantrip, it's not supposed to upstage a 2nd-level evocation spell in terms of damage.

[Chronos]

Because it's a joke spell, duh. It's a friggin' cantrip, it's not supposed to upstage a 2nd-level evocation spell in terms of damage.Nothing is supposed to upstage evocation spells of higher level in terms of damage. But a lot of things do, anyway.

[TheCountAlucard]

Hmm...

An arrow sized for a Medium archer counts as an improvised Medium person's dagger, a light weapon for a Medium-sized person. Thus, an arrow sized for a Colossal archer would count as an improvised Colossal person's dagger, which would be a Huge person's two-handed weapon...

A Medium-sized wizard couldn't wield a Colossal bolt to fire the thing!

[GoC]

Are you kidding? I've yelled at people to wake them up before, to no effect. That's what the listen rules are for when you're asleep.
That's because you didn't sound urgent. Play the sound of a child screaming in pain at 80 decibels near anyone who's ever had a kid and they'll wake up every time or you money back (99% of your neighbors will also wake up too though).

[Lord Tataraus]

Hmm...

An arrow sized for a Medium archer counts as an improvised Medium person's dagger, a light weapon for a Medium-sized person. Thus, an arrow sized for a Colossal archer would count as an improvised Colossal person's dagger, which would be a Huge person's two-handed weapon...

A Medium-sized wizard couldn't wield a Colossal bolt to fire the thing!

Ah, but you don't wield it, you only hold it. That means you just need enough strength carry the bolt with you.

[obvious pun]

Hmm...

An arrow sized for a Medium archer counts as an improvised Medium person's dagger, a light weapon for a Medium-sized person. Thus, an arrow sized for a Colossal archer would count as an improvised Colossal person's dagger, which would be a Huge person's two-handed weapon...

A Medium-sized wizard couldn't wield a Colossal bolt to fire the thing!

Would a dagger count as an improvised bolt/arrow? 'Cause that'd be awesome.

I would, however, say know direction is the most useless spell. Waste a perfectly good 0th lvl spell slot that would normally be saved for prestidigitation, for a spell that is easily replaced by a compass.

[Collin152]

Would a dagger count as an improvised bolt/arrow? 'Cause that'd be awesome.

I would, however, say know direction is the most useless spell. Waste a perfectly good 0th lvl spell slot that would normally be saved for prestidigitation, for a spell that is easily replaced by a compass.

Compass beign a magic item of contiunal Know-Direction.

[Aquillion]

Compass beign a magic item of contiunal Know-Direction.In one edition, didn't Know Direction have a material component of a magnet on a string?

I seem to remember hearing that somewhere...

[Collin152]

In one edition, didn't Know Direction have a material component of a magnet on a string?

I seem to remember hearing that somewhere...

Hey, as long as it doesn't have a compass for a focus.

[FlyMolo]

/\: That would seriously pointless.

I think Grease is the most pointless spell. not because it sucks or doesn't work, but because the same effect can be replicated by plain old regular grease in a bottle, for cheap. Best of all, that ones permanent.

In general, all the most not-worth-it classes get class features replicated by items. Monk Belt, for one.

[Solo]

/\: That would seriously pointless.

I think Grease is the most pointless spell. not because it sucks or doesn't work, but because the same effect can be replicated by plain old regular grease in a bottle, for cheap. Best of all, that ones permanent.


Can you grease something with a bottle from a twenty feet away?

Or when you've been stripped of your gear?

Can you raise the save DC of the grease by modifying your caster stat?

[Chronos]

Perhaps more importantly, can you grease four (or sixteen) squares of the battle map, which are currently occupied by creatures, in a single standard action? The stuff out of a bottle is fine for setting up an ambush, but it's not the most efficient choice during combat.

[Kurald Galain]

In one edition, didn't Know Direction have a material component of a magnet on a string?

Heh. Remember when 3.0 used to have a whole friggin' skill for knowing direction? That scores pretty high in "the most useless skills"...

[John Campbell]

Wait, how can you be comparing yourselves to adventurers. You're all like, level 1 commoners or Experts at best.

Based on my armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies and the number of combat feats I definitely have (just the ones that are required to perform some combat maneuver I routinely use, or prerequisites to those, ignoring any of the ones that seem likely but only provide modifiers to something that can be done without them), I am necessarily at least a Fighter 10... and that assumes that I can fit all of those feats in in the right order to meet all of the prereqs efficiently, which I'm not sure of. Lunging Strike alone requires that I be at least 6th level in a full-BAB class, and I use that one quite frequently.

You can take that as condemnation either of the "everyone is a low-level NPC class" idea, or of 3.5's tendency to replace creativity and the DM's judgment with detailed written rules that say that you can't do whatever it was you were trying to do because you don't have the right feat; I don't much care which.

[Solo]

Keep in mind that you can do things without a feat... you just do them much better with the appropriate feat.

[Chronos]

Lunging Strike alone requires that I be at least 6th level in a full-BAB class, and I use that one quite frequently. How do you know you're not just taking a 5-foot-step and attacking normally? A Commoner-1 can do that. Or, if it's too far for a single 5-foot-step, how do you know you're not charging?

[Larrin]

That's because you didn't sound urgent. Play the sound of a child screaming in pain at 80 decibels near anyone who's ever had a kid and they'll wake up every time or you money back (99% of your neighbors will also wake up too though).

This is very true, but can be applied to anything that a particular person focuses on. I will wake immediately at the sound of my bedroom door opening, and often give an incoherent shout if i see a person in the doorway (to which my wife has learn the best response is "Its me") If someone so much as yipped in alarm, i'd be up in full adrenaline rush (i'm kind of a nervous sleeper, it seems) Many people who have seen combat will wake at any sound, or instintively attack someone who grabs them while they sleep. I've known more that one veteran whose family knew only to wake him by shaking his foot. If you're out in a scary woods, most people will be easy enough to rouse. In the game, there are really no waking up mechanics that i know of, every DM does it differently (from listen checks to Fort saves to STAY asleep). Thus rouse is a bad spell because it attempts to apply to situations that have no rules (and thus it can't really have any description in the effects portion) and thus ranges from useless ( i can just shout) to really useful (when DM rules that all sleeping people are comatose, deaf, and insensate, and confused upon not being properly wakened for 1d4 rounds). Useless in 95% of the game, not reliably more effective in that 5% than non-magical options

Instant summons: not useless, just overpriced. and whats up with crushing a saphire. thats just crazy. The idianna jones example is the most obvious and cost effective. but thats very situational.

[John Campbell]

How do you know you're not just taking a 5-foot-step and attacking normally? A Commoner-1 can do that. Or, if it's too far for a single 5-foot-step, how do you know you're not charging?

Because it's a single maneuver where I lunge to strike a target well out of the normal reach of my weapon (I can hit people almost twenty feet away with a 7.5' glaive doing this) and immediately return to my starting position. It's not a 5' step, attack, 5' step back the next round... it's either splitting movement around the attack, or a maneuver that abstracts away the movement. Either way it requires at least one feat... either Lunging Strike or the entire Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack chain. I have no other reason to believe I have the latter, which makes Lunging Strike the more reasonable option. And anyway, I can do it in heavy armor, which Spring Attack disallows.

[GoC]

Based on my armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies and the number of combat feats I definitely have (just the ones that are required to perform some combat maneuver I routinely use, or prerequisites to those, ignoring any of the ones that seem likely but only provide modifiers to something that can be done without them), I am necessarily at least a Fighter 10...
Magical Adamantium armor? Wow!:smalleek:
D&D is very bad at these things isn't it?
Going by hp noone is over level 5 or so. Going by skills, feats or jumping skills and other such things level 15 isn't unreasonable.

[obvious pun]

Going by hp noone is over level 5 or so.

Not necessarily, we could've all just rolled 1s for every new hit die we got. Or we have con penalties.

[mostlyharmful]

That or Hp is an abstaction not intended to repressent ability to withstand physical punishment, for that you need DR.

[Worira]

Falling damage. Cure spells. Acid immersion. Etc.

[mostlyharmful]

Falling damage. Cure spells. Acid immersion. Etc.

I never said it was a good abstraction. Nor one that makes any kind of sense. Nor one that has any internal consistancy. Still what atleast some of the games designers had in mind.... bleh, give me shadowrun realism when it comes to getting hit in the head. bullet to the brain cant be argued with at any level.

[Chronos]

Going by hp noone is over level 5 or so.For most people, nobody has any idea of how many HP they have. For all I know, I might have two HP, and I might have a million. All I know is that I've never taken enough damage to threaten to kill me.

And there are actually people who have survived falls at terminal velocity (20d6 damage). There aren't very many such people, true, but then, how many people ever fall that far in the first place?

[Kurald Galain]

D&D is very bad at these things isn't it?
Yep. It is still funny when people somehow get the idea that the system is realistic by any stretch of the word.



Going by hp noone is over level 5 or so. Going by skills, feats or jumping skills and other such things level 15 isn't unreasonable.
I'm not so sure about the HP. There are people that have suffered grievous wounds and lived, including sub-orbital falls and gunfire. Assuming averages on both HP rolls and damage rolls, that puts them a lot higher than 5.

Fun D&D fact: you can become fluent in any language you haven't even heard, in a matter of days.

It is actually impossible to model an olympic-level athlete (or equivalent in mental/science disciplines) with the D&D skill system, because either (1) this person will have a substantial chance of being beaten at his specialty by an unskilled high school teenager, or (2) this person will have a substantial chance of performing stunts that are physically impossible, or (3) both of the above.

[Collin152]

It's also possible to learn a language you've never even heard of.

[senrath]

Wasn't HP described in one of the older editions as a mixture of skill, fortitude, luck and divine favor?

[Chronos]

Back to the original topic, another useless spell is Wish. No, really. None of the safe options listed for it come close to being worth 5000 XP. And you can try for more powerful options, but those are just begging your DM to screw you over. About the only thing it's good for is making manuals and tomes.

On the other hand, it makes a great spell-like ability.

[Signmaker]

Back to the original topic, another useless spell is Wish. No, really. None of the safe options listed for it come close to being worth 5000 XP. And you can try for more powerful options, but those are just begging your DM to screw you over. About the only thing it's good for is making manuals and tomes.

On the other hand, it makes a great spell-like ability.


I see giving Wish to a caster like giving a Swiss army knife to an Autobot. Versatility stacked on to versatility is a tad redundant. Useful in rare DM-tries-to-mess-with-you occasions, but redudant nontheless.

[GoC]

I'm not so sure about the HP. There are people that have suffered grievous wounds and lived, including sub-orbital falls and gunfire. Assuming averages on both HP rolls and damage rolls, that puts them a lot higher than 5.

But I bet they couldn't do it again. Or survive an attack by a trained warrior with a greatsword and fullplate for 30 seconds while glued to the spot.
In fact pit them against a blackbelt (level 2-3 monk) for those same 30 seconds.

D&D also sucks at things like bullrushes. A charging bull can be stopped in it's tracks by an ordinary man 1/4 of the time. This is without any sort of trips or anything, just brute strength.

[monty]

Back to the original topic, another useless spell is Wish. No, really. None of the safe options listed for it come close to being worth 5000 XP. And you can try for more powerful options, but those are just begging your DM to screw you over. About the only thing it's good for is making manuals and tomes.

On the other hand, it makes a great spell-like ability.

As a SLA, it's amazing. Alternately, unless I missed something in the rules, you can just get a Ring of Three Wishes, use the Wishes to get three more rings, use those to get nine rings, and so on.

[tyckspoon]

As a SLA, it's amazing. Alternately, unless I missed something in the rules, you can just get a Ring of Three Wishes, use the Wishes to get three more rings, use those to get nine rings, and so on.

The 'create a magic item' option does not have a stated value limit, true. This will not prevent your DM from screwing with the Wish if you try to abuse that particular oversight.

[monty]

The 'create a magic item' option does not have a stated value limit, true. This will not prevent your DM from screwing with the Wish if you try to abuse that particular oversight.

But my point is it's completely legal by RAW. Your DM can screw you over if you do anything they don't like, much less try to break the game with infinite free wishes.

[purplearcanist]

Blight - deals damage only to plant creatures, and the amount of damage is abysmal compared to other damage dealing spells. If you want to harm a plant, there are better ways to do it.

Any inflict spell - Only useful if you need to heal undead, and if you need to heal undead, you should put wands of inflict light wounds in your pack.

most cure spells - same as above, but clerics get heal and mass heal, which make these spells look like they are lacking.

[monty]

Blight - deals damage only to plant creatures, and the amount of damage is abysmal compared to other damage dealing spells. If you want to harm a plant, there are better ways to do it.

Any inflict spell - Only useful if you need to heal undead, and if you need to heal undead, you should put wands of inflict light wounds in your pack.

most cure spells - same as above, but clerics get heal and mass heal, which make these spells look like they are lacking.

At low levels, though, you don't have Heal, and if you don't have any Cure spells, you won't last long in a dungeon crawl.

[Aquillion]

Back to the original topic, another useless spell is Wish. No, really. None of the safe options listed for it come close to being worth 5000 XP. And you can try for more powerful options, but those are just begging your DM to screw you over. About the only thing it's good for is making manuals and tomes.The one thing is that there are a few effects that say "only a Wish or equivilent can..."

Obviously, Miracle is a better choice to have in most cases, but it still makes access to Wish a good thing for if your cleric gets hit by such an effect... If I happened to find a spellbook with Wish already in it, I wouldn't grumble about the wasted pages the way I would with some of the spells here.

[Chronos]

Alternately, unless I missed something in the rules, you can just get a Ring of Three Wishes, use the Wishes to get three more rings, use those to get nine rings, and so on.Actually, I don't think that the Wish from a Ring of Three Wishes can be anything which would increase the XP cost. Or at least, if it could, then it cost that much more to make. So you could turn one hideously overpriced Ring of Three Wishes into three ordinary Rings of Three Wishes.

[monty]

Actually, I don't think that the Wish from a Ring of Three Wishes can be anything which would increase the XP cost. Or at least, if it could, then it cost that much more to make. So you could turn one hideously overpriced Ring of Three Wishes into three ordinary Rings of Three Wishes.

It doesn't say that though. It says it lets you use Wish 3 times, and the Wish description doesn't say anything about a limit on what kind of magic item you can create. It's only abuse because you're circumventing the XP cost.

[Kurald Galain]

Back to the original topic, another useless spell is Wish. No, really. None of the safe options listed for it come close to being worth 5000 XP.
That's a good point... actually WOTC nerfed wish by giving a list of safe options, because that pretty much implies that everything else should not be safe, which wasn't necessarily the case in earlier editions.


But I bet they couldn't do it again. Or survive an attack by a trained warrior with a greatsword and fullplate for 30 seconds while glued to the spot.
In fact pit them against a blackbelt (level 2-3 monk) for those same 30 seconds.
Glued to the spot = coup de grace. And blackbelt = 12th level or thereabouts, by what those folks can actually do. I refer you to this post:


Based on my armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies and the number of combat feats I definitely have (just the ones that are required to perform some combat maneuver I routinely use, or prerequisites to those, ignoring any of the ones that seem likely but only provide modifiers to something that can be done without them), I am necessarily at least a Fighter 10...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

At low levels, though, you don't have Heal, and if you don't have any Cure spells, you won't last long in a dungeon crawl.

Well healing in combat is less then effective. And a single wand of Cure light wounds is all it takes to last through a dungeon, and get enough Wealth to buy two more.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Vigor is far better out-of-combat than CLW. In combat, just cast Bear's Endurance, and put off healing until later.

[Nychta]

Back to the original topic, another useless spell is Wish. No, really. None of the safe options listed for it come close to being worth 5000 XP. And you can try for more powerful options, but those are just begging your DM to screw you over. About the only thing it's good for is making manuals and tomes.

On the other hand, it makes a great spell-like ability.

I think you're right in saying that it's not worth getting. I will mention that to my party wizard.
Thanks muchly. It just seemed like such an iconic spell that nobody questioned his plans to learn it as soon as possible.

[hamishspence]

if your players try to pull the Wishing for more rings trick, remember the Genie:

And IX-NAY on the wishing for more wishes. Thats it, 3, un, deux, tres. No substitutions, exchanges, or refunds.

[GoC]

Glued to the spot = coup de grace. And blackbelt = 12th level or thereabouts, by what those folks can actually do. I refer you to this post:
No, glued to the spot=unable to move and denied dex to AC. It isn't the same as helpless (the precondition for a coup).
So your average blackbelt has the same chance of surviving a fall from 130ft up as the average person has of surviving a fall from 10ft.
Can't we just agree that D&D doesn't mesh with real life and leave it at that?