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Tetsubo 57
2008-04-05, 06:22 PM
In D&D [3.5] bucklers are strapped to the forearm. I've never liked this as it runs counter to how a buckler is actually used. They are actually held in your off hand. They are a much more dynamic form of defense then the larger shields. Aiding the user in both disarming and grappling with an opponent. To reflect this I propose granting a +2 bonus to a user in both Disarming and Grappling attempts if held in the hand as they should be. Does that sound balanced?

Collin152
2008-04-05, 06:36 PM
In D&D [3.5] bucklers are strapped to the forearm. I've never liked this as it runs counter to how a buckler is actually used. They are actually held in your off hand. They are a much more dynamic form of defense then the larger shields. Aiding the user in both disarming and grappling with an opponent. To reflect this I propose granting a +2 bonus to a user in both Disarming and Grappling attempts if held in the hand as they should be. Does that sound balanced?

People use Bucklers as melee classes?
News to me.

Zincorium
2008-04-05, 06:38 PM
Falchions were historically one handed.
Spiked chains and double weapons (quarterstaff exempted) were never used by any actual army.
The Siangham is a pointy stick.

D&D simply does not do realism well. 'Buckler' is as good a term as any for what is essentially a vambrace on steroids.

And frankly, a buckler isn't any better at disarming than a weapon of similar heft and reach, nor does it help more than a weapon at grappling. The bonuses you visualize are the product of training and skill, not the equipment associated with that training.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-05, 06:39 PM
I've always used a main gouche when I was actively fencing, so I would not know. However, added the bonuses would not be broken so much as meaningless. Two handed weps will do the job better, and the buckler will still sit there, strapped to the greatsword user's forarm.

Nohwl
2008-04-05, 07:01 PM
if a buckler is strapped to a fighters forearm, could you wear two?

Zincorium
2008-04-05, 07:11 PM
if a buckler is strapped to a fighters forearm, could you wear two?

Yes, but the bonuses to AC wouldn't stack. I suppose it's conceivable you might want to do it if you're in dire need of more armor enchantments but have run out of +'s possible on your main suit and animated shield.

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-05, 07:12 PM
There'd be no point to it. Shield bonuses don't stack.

Darn! Ninja'ed!

SurlySeraph
2008-04-05, 07:17 PM
People use Bucklers as melee classes?
News to me.

Oh, sure. For Rangers and suchlike that don't get heavy armor, they're worthwhile. There are a couple feats for bucklers that are decent (Improved Buckler Fighting, which is useful if perhaps not worthwhile, and some weird feat that's good but only applies if you're using a buckler while dual-wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and a handaxe).


if a buckler is strapped to a fighters forearm, could you wear two?

No rule states that you can't wear two. (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=23). :smallwink:

Nychta
2008-04-05, 07:17 PM
That's confused me, too, so I've decided not to get one for the time being. However, seeing as there's a whole thread about buckler's now, I'd like to ask you good people whether it would be a good decision to get my greatsword-wielding fighter a buckler, using the 'strapped to the arm' rule. My problem was that I thought it was meant to be held in the off-hand.

tyckspoon
2008-04-05, 07:26 PM
No rule states that you can't wear two. (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=23). :smallwink:

They'll both give a +1 shield bonus which can't stack with itself, tho, so there's not much point to wearing two unless you want to get a bunch of shield enhancement properties.

Edit: Which was already said. Go go reading threads from the bottom up!

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-05, 07:29 PM
That's confused me, too, so I've decided not to get one for the time being. However, seeing as there's a whole thread about buckler's now, I'd like to ask you good people whether it would be a good decision to get my greatsword-wielding fighter a buckler, using the 'strapped to the arm' rule. My problem was that I thought it was meant to be held in the off-hand.

I think doing do grants you +1 to AC and -1 to your attack roll, inless you get a pimped out one. Woo... Exciting all around.

Nychta
2008-04-05, 07:31 PM
I think doing do grants you +1 to AC and -1 to your attack roll, inless you get a pimped out one. Woo... Exciting all around.

Huh. Seems like a bit of a waste of time. Thanks, though!

FinalJustice
2008-04-05, 07:49 PM
You could put soulfire and greater fortification in your bucklers, freeing the armor for something else, like energy immunity, maybe. Can be a good idea at higher levels.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-05, 08:26 PM
Huh. Seems like a bit of a waste of time. Thanks, though!

Oh come on! It's a total gain if you are a pacifist of a meleer! :smallamused:

Kristoss
2008-04-05, 08:35 PM
You can use your buckler arm to wield a weapon however doing so incurs a -1 penalty and you lose the shield bonus until the end of the round.

Improved buckler defense (CW) allows you to retain the shield bonus but you still get the attack penalty.

FinalJustice
2008-04-05, 09:00 PM
Oops, totally forgot that. You can use a buckler in your off-hand and wield a weapon with both hands, but you get -1 while keeping the shield bonus. In case of TWF you'd need the feat. Or, if you want to use two bucklers.

cupkeyk
2008-04-05, 09:03 PM
There we are again with two bucklers... its been established that they doin't stack.

any hoot,. can you stack nonnumerical enhancements like you have a +5 energy immunity whatever that adds to +5 and a +1 buckler with +9 in enhancements on the other for a +5 to shield bonus and +14 in effects?

Zincorium
2008-04-05, 09:19 PM
There we are again with two bucklers... its been established that they doin't stack.

any hoot,. can you stack nonnumerical enhancements like you have a +5 energy immunity whatever that adds to +5 and a +1 buckler with +9 in enhancements on the other for a +5 to shield bonus and +14 in effects?

Yep. The stacking rules only apply to bonuses and identical (or very similar) effects.

If you're using different enchantments on the 'secondary' buckler while using the primary one for it's AC benefit, you can save a bit of cash or enable an otherwise impossible number of different effects.

Nychta
2008-04-05, 10:14 PM
Oh come on! It's a total gain if you are a pacifist of a meleer! :smallamused:

Good point, I'll make a note to mention it to the party bard.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-05, 10:27 PM
Yep. The stacking rules only apply to bonuses and identical (or very similar) effects.

If you're using different enchantments on the 'secondary' buckler while using the primary one for it's AC benefit, you can save a bit of cash or enable an otherwise impossible number of different effects.

Yeah but a Magic Vestment spell does the same thing only even cheaper.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-05, 10:33 PM
Good point, I'll make a note to mention it to the party bard.

Poor sod can use all the help he/she can get. =P

cupkeyk
2008-04-05, 10:41 PM
Good point, I'll make a note to mention it to the party bard.

Lolz, I play a bard. I have a crystal echoblade and a buckler. I have NEVER rolled an attack roll in my career.

Nychta
2008-04-05, 10:50 PM
Poor sod can use all the help he/she can get. =P


Lolz, I play a bard. I have a crystal echoblade and a buckler. I have NEVER rolled an attack roll in my career.

Thank you, good sir and madam people, for proving my point exactly.

EDIT: 'sir and madam' is my general response to everyone :smallredface: sorry to have caused the, uh, slight distraction of this thread.

cupkeyk
2008-04-05, 11:41 PM
Thank you, good sir and madam, for proving my point exactly.

is hadrian emrys a girl, because I am a guy. -_-

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-06, 12:04 AM
cupkeyk: Sorry. Just a guy who cross dresses during holidays when I want to mess with people's heads. The two CAN be mixed up from time to time if you aren't paying attention though. :smalltongue:

cupkeyk
2008-04-06, 12:08 AM
I have only cross dressed once, and as a japanese school girl, which I have a valid excuse for because I am actually asian.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-06, 12:13 AM
I'm half asian. I get away with it because the scene a run in is chock full of anime fangirls who like their guys a bit effeminate. Get the girl AND mess with conservative people with the same fun action? Sign me up. Twice even! :smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-04-06, 12:21 AM
cupkeyk: Sorry. Just a guy who cross dresses during holidays when I want to mess with people's heads. The two CAN be mixed up from time to time if you aren't paying attention though. :smalltongue:

That is so hot.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-06, 12:25 AM
That is so hot.

I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Is that sarcasm or geniune approval? :smallamused:

cupkeyk
2008-04-06, 12:31 AM
Ask him out.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-06, 12:35 AM
Him or me? Also, how is this at all connected to bucklers? :smalltongue:

SurlySeraph
2008-04-06, 03:03 AM
You can't use bucklers to make shield bash attacks, so I can't smack you deviated preverts with bucklers to get you to stop hitting on each other and get back on topic.

On a more constructive note, this (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shielded_Axe,all) makes bucklers worthwhile, if only when you're wielding a specific and odd combination of weapons.

Matthew
2008-04-06, 07:24 AM
In D&D [3.5] bucklers are strapped to the forearm. I've never liked this as it runs counter to how a buckler is actually used. They are actually held in your off hand. They are a much more dynamic form of defense then the larger shields. Aiding the user in both disarming and grappling with an opponent. To reflect this I propose granting a +2 bonus to a user in both Disarming and Grappling attempts if held in the hand as they should be. Does that sound balanced?

Buckler has a broad meaning and a narrow meaning. You are thinking of the narrow definition. The dictionary definition of the word is "A small, round shield either carried or worn on the arm". So, aside from all the 'it's D&D, not D20 past' stuff, buckler is a perfectly valid term for what is described in the PHB.

Thrawn183
2008-04-06, 09:20 AM
Don't forget that if you're super desperate for armor enchantments you could have two bucklers AND an animated shield. Get that shield bonus to AC without taking any penalty to attack rolls and still get lots of cheap armor enchantments.

I could totally see juggernaut running around with this setup in addition to his wacky helmet.

They'd be his costume's elbowpads or something.

Fhaolan
2008-04-07, 12:51 AM
In historical use, there are multiple types of shields that have been labeled 'bucklers', and there is no small confusion between them.

The one D&D seems to use is sometimes also called an 'archer's buckler'. This is a very small round shield that is buckled to the forearm of your secondary arm. It is small enough, and light enough, that you can use a bow fairly easily while the buckler is still on your arm. The idea being that you can drop the bow, draw your sword, and be reasonably prepared for melee without needing to pick up a sheild.

Another is sometimes called a 'target buckler', 'target shield', or simply 'targe'. This is a somewhat larger round shield that is still buckled to your arm, is sometimes spiked, and is still small compared to a normal round shield, but is big enough that it would be awkward to use a bow yourself.

Then there is the 'swash buckler'. This is a small round metal shield that is held in your hand by a single handle, has no strapping, and is used to punch parry rapiers and cut-and-thrusts.

And finally, there is the english 'fencing buckler'. This one is a bit weird, as it's not round. It looks more like a square of corregated roofing material like they have on barns, carports and the like. It's used to foul rapiers during duels. I've seen center-punch versions and strapped versions. I'm not sure which is correct, as it's apparantly a relatively rare and somewhat confusing form.

D&D seems to be geared towards the first form of buckler. People who do fencing and other forms of medieval combat recreation think in terms of the next two, and get a bit confused when looking at the D&D one. Nobody seems to think in terms of the last one, except for people like me. :smallsmile:

Craig1f
2008-04-07, 02:52 PM
In the games I play, the -1 to your attack is linked to the -1 armor penalty you get from the buckler. Therefore, if you remove the armor penalty, you remove the attack penalty.

A mithral buckler in our game does not penalize your attack with a two-handed weapon in the games I play. So, it becomes a viable option to add to your AC during rounds where you might not make an attack.

Still, an Animated Mithral Heavy Shield is the way to go.