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Titanium Dragon
2008-04-05, 09:01 PM
I'm playing a warblade and looking at the meaneuver Iron Heart Surge; I've heard it is cool, but I'm not really sure how useful it is. Why do people consider this to be a good maneuver? Is there something about it I'm missing? I think I'm going to take it regardless (as I never use the maneuver I'm switching out of, Wall of Blades, anyway) but I'm not sure if I'd ever use this maneuver either. Why is it good?

cupkeyk
2008-04-05, 09:08 PM
Iron heart surge will be one of those once a month topics like monks underpowered or wizards/CoDzilla overpowered huh?

People like it because it is badly written and is then open to (mis)interpretation. But if you think about it, since it can only be used when you can make a standard action it isn't available to most effects that should be actually deadly, like stunned or held or charmed.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-05, 09:24 PM
Well, the best way I can give is to use an example to show how badly worded it is.
Create a Drow Warblade with this maneuver. Go out into direct sunlight, taking the penalties that implies. Activate Maneuver, ending the effect causing said penalties. Congrats, you've ended the sun.
You can also do this with stuff like antimagic fields, but this is the best example I've heard. Personally, my group has just said is makes the user of the maneuver exempt from the effect for a period of time(up to dm interpretation).

Reel On, Love
2008-04-05, 09:29 PM
Well, the best way I can give is to use an example to show how badly worded it is.
Create a Drow Warblade with this maneuver. Go out into direct sunlight, taking the penalties that implies. Activate Maneuver, ending the effect causing said penalties. Congrats, you've ended the sun.
Not if you're actually reading the spell. You've ended the DAZZLED CONDITION on yourself.
The sun is NOT an effect with a specific duration.

cupkeyk
2008-04-05, 09:37 PM
Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-05, 09:57 PM
From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.


That's like being affected by an arcane magic and declare that it's a condition/effect originated from a god/goddess of magic. IHS, voila no more Mystra.

bugsysservant
2008-04-05, 10:00 PM
From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

Well, spinning the world ahead a few hours is only on par with epic magic, rather than, say, overdeities. So, it's not TOTALLY br0ken....

Titanium Dragon
2008-04-05, 10:02 PM
From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

Sunlight is not an effect, nor is it a spell, so IHS cannot end it. It can end the dazzled condition caused by light blindness, though, and by the wording of light blindness you'd be immune to being dazzled from light blindness as long as you were not suddenly exposed to a bright light again.

By the wording of it, though, it does seem like it'd work to end Solid Fog. Wall of Fire, and similar effects.

cupkeyk
2008-04-05, 10:03 PM
ah but a deity's influence doesn't have a set duration. ^_^

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-05, 10:06 PM
ah but a deity's influence doesn't have a set duration. ^_^


"When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds". Just declare that you feel the deity's influence everywhere (making it a... mental condition) and hey, no more gods/goddesses!


Nah, I shouldn't be so cranky just because someone, namely cupkeyk thought of an awesome idea before I thought of it, eh? :smallamused:

Chronos
2008-04-05, 11:38 PM
The problem with Iron Heart Surge is that most of the things that by RAW, it can do, no sane DM would actually allow, while the things that it ought to be able to do in a sane game, by RAW, it can't. Dispelling a Fimbulwinter that has the entire continent locked in its icy embrace? Sure. Shake off a Hold Person spell? Sorry, no can do.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-06, 09:54 AM
That's like being affected by an arcane magic and declare that it's a condition/effect originated from a god/goddess of magic. IHS, voila no more Mystra.

So that was how Shar ended Mystra and caused the spell plague...

Jastermereel
2008-04-07, 09:59 PM
From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.

The sunlight is the cause of the effect; the dazzling is the effect.

The question is, how long does this last? If it simply ends it for good, wouldn't most sun-sensitive species strive to get access to this ability so as to overcome their weakness?

Cuddly
2008-04-07, 10:14 PM
Most worlds have a day-night cycle. The duration of a day is typically around 12 hours.

Fixer
2008-04-08, 06:18 AM
The sunlight is the cause of the effect; the dazzling is the effect.

The question is, how long does this last? If it simply ends it for good, wouldn't most sun-sensitive species strive to get access to this ability so as to overcome their weakness?
I know, for my purposes, that I rule that it lasts until exposed again. In this case, less than one round. Essentially the sun is making a continuous attack on the individual in question.

I came up with a list for Iron Heart Surge for my warblade, but I think it needs to be tweaked some more.

Area of Effect spells with a non-instantaneous duration
Blinded
Checked
Confused (if 11-20 is rolled allowing the character to act normally)
Cursed
Dazzled
Deafened
Diseased
Enchantment / Charm spells that the character is aware of and has a choice of performing a standard action of their choice
Entangled
Ethereal
Exhausted
Fatigued
Frightened (if unable to move and, therefore, allowed to take voluntary actions)
Gaseous Form
Incorporeal
Invisible
Knocked Down (Not really sure how this works, though...)
Poisoned
Polymorphed (if able to take a standard action)
Prone (Not really sure how this works, though...)
Shaken
Sickened
Staggered

Person_Man
2008-04-08, 09:29 AM
Oh come on guys, lets not confuse a newbie by telling him that Iron Heart Surge can end the sun. That's like saying a falling warblade can end gravity if he readies a standard action and is then tossed off a cliff. It's hilarious, but its not going to happen.

Jastermereel
2008-04-08, 11:13 AM
a falling warblade can end gravity if he readies a standard action and is then tossed off a cliff.
Thats a great one! Why didn't we think of that earlier?

:smallbiggrin:

Titanium Dragon
2008-04-08, 06:07 PM
Fixer, you missed Immobilized. Sadly, it is not possible to use it to escape a grapple because maneuvers aren't specifically listed; at least, I'm pretty sure you can't.

namo
2008-04-09, 01:10 AM
The Sage has recommendations about the use of maneuvers in a grapple : see the FAQ.

Fixer
2008-04-09, 11:26 AM
Fixer, you missed Immobilized. Sadly, it is not possible to use it to escape a grapple because maneuvers aren't specifically listed; at least, I'm pretty sure you can't.
Actually, I think I omitted Immobilized because of the whole, 'If you cannot move, you cannot use a maneuver' rule. Maybe I got something crossed.

Animefunkmaster
2008-04-09, 12:11 PM
Most worlds have a day-night cycle. The duration of a day is typically around 12 hours.

The day is not an effect, it is a measurement of time. With a roar of effort you have ended... an hour.

Frosty
2008-04-09, 12:14 PM
I do not see it as overpowered to let a swordage use Shadow Jaunt or something to escape a grapple.

Sinfire Titan
2008-04-09, 01:45 PM
Actually, I think I omitted Immobilized because of the whole, 'If you cannot move, you cannot use a maneuver' rule. Maybe I got something crossed.

Immobilized is like having your feet Sovereign Glued to solid stone. It just holds you in one place.

Hey, technically speaking, is Life considered an affliction if you are Emo? Because then you just found a way to make a Warblade commit suicide via Dominate without actually trying to: IHS himself to death.

Cuddly
2008-04-09, 02:25 PM
The day is not an effect, it is a measurement of time. With a roar of effort you have ended... an hour.

The condition is the sun, with a duration of one day.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-09, 02:29 PM
The condition is the sun, with a duration of one day.

Wouldn't the Sun end when it is night out? Thus really only 16 to 20 hours?

hamishspence
2008-04-09, 02:29 PM
You could say its not a condition, its an object. Same principle would apply to a can of radioactive waste. You might end the Radiation Poisoning effect, but the can would remain.

elliott20
2008-04-09, 02:36 PM
wait, are there people out there who actually would play it that way though? I mean, I know it's technically RAW, but even then, that's just moronic. If the OP is asking about the maneuver because he wants to pick it for an actual game, wouldn't it be reasonable of us to assume that his GM would practice a little bit of common sense with this?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-09, 02:54 PM
wait, are there people out there who actually would play it that way though? I mean, I know it's technically RAW, but even then, that's just moronic. If the OP is asking about the maneuver because he wants to pick it for an actual game, wouldn't it be reasonable of us to assume that his GM would practice a little bit of common sense with this?

Play it like what? Ending the sun? Not likely.

Ending conditions it doesn't end by RAW, but might have been intended to (Daze, Frightened, ect.)? Maybe.

Ending AMF fields and Stinking Clouds? Yes definitely. WotC even says it does in the FAQ. I know some people who slavishly obey the FAQ.

bugsysservant
2008-04-09, 02:54 PM
Hey, technically speaking, is Life considered an affliction if you are Emo? Because then you just found a way to make a Warblade commit suicide via Dominate without actually trying to: IHS himself to death.

What the hell is an emo doing adventuring?

Emo Adventurer: God, I hate my life. I wish I could just die.

Vampire: Happy to oblige you.

elliott20
2008-04-09, 03:02 PM
does anybody else find the concept of an Emo learning IRON HEART surge immensely ironic?

SurlySeraph
2008-04-09, 03:11 PM
@^: So he can get bitten by a vampire, tripling his Angst Capacity.

Cuddly
2008-04-09, 03:12 PM
So Caster19/Warblade1 would make a pretty solid build if you ever get caught in AMF.

Huh.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-09, 03:18 PM
From the WOTC website. The antimagic field is a spell affecting the drow, so he can end it. the sunlight is an effect that is affecting the drow, so the warblade can snuff the sunlight. Simply removing effect would clarify the maneuver really, spell or condition are better defined terms. sunlight has a determined duration too. ^_^.
No, sunlight has no duration, unless the sun actually shuts down during the night in some campaign setting... If not, the sun is still active, and shinning, it's light is just not reaching the place where your character is. It's like saying that walking away from the area where a Silence spell is active will actually make the spell end, instead of just making it immediately stop affecting you.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-09, 03:34 PM
So Caster19/Warblade1 would make a pretty solid build if you ever get caught in AMF.

Huh.

Other then the fact that a Wizard can use a 5th level spell to negate the AMFs effects, sure.

Cuddly
2008-04-09, 03:56 PM
Other then the fact that a Wizard can use a 5th level spell to negate the AMFs effects, sure.

Are wizards the only casters these days? I was unaware....

Which spell, btw?

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-09, 03:59 PM
No, sunlight has no duration....

Not true! It has a duration of about 10 billion years. Upon expiration stars summon a red giant, white dwarf, or in a small number of cases, a really huge sphere of annihilation.

Curmudgeon
2008-04-09, 04:54 PM
English composition rules can be your allies. A "duration of 1 or more rounds" is not the same as a "duration of 1 round or longer". The latter means anything lasting at least one round. The former means only things with a duration that's stated in rounds and with a value of at least 1.

I strongly recommend Warriner's English Grammar and Composition (http://www.amazon.com/Warriners-English-Grammar-Composition-Complete/dp/B000EPR8S8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207778212&sr=1-1) if you didn't already understand this distinction.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-09, 05:03 PM
Are wizards the only casters these days? I was unaware....

Which spell, btw?

1) Clerics can just move out of the field without worrying about it, so can most Wizards for that matter, and Druids. For pretty much anyone, getting out of an AMF is a piece of cake. The important thing is that Clerics can actually bludgeon to death anyone capable of casting AMF.

And that would be Wall of Force.

FlyMolo
2008-04-09, 05:26 PM
Someone mentioned ending radioactive-ness using IHS. So, it stops doing what it was doing. So, basically, that's an argument in support of the ending the sun theory. Because a sun that don't shine is basically gone. Unless you go touch it.

Idea! The illithids are trying to get the Drow to accidentally end the sun using IHS. PLOT!

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-09, 05:27 PM
No, sunlight has no duration, unless the sun actually shuts down during the night in some campaign setting... If not, the sun is still active, and shinning, it's light is just not reaching the place where your character is. It's like saying that walking away from the area where a Silence spell is active will actually make the spell end, instead of just making it immediately stop affecting you.

In any Egyptian setting, the Sun is eaten at night, and reborn in the morning. I believe that it is similarly 'shut down' in Hellenic and Norse mythologies too, although not as drastically.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 05:29 PM
wait, are there people out there who actually would play it that way though? I mean, I know it's technically RAW, but even then, that's just moronic. If the OP is asking about the maneuver because he wants to pick it for an actual game, wouldn't it be reasonable of us to assume that his GM would practice a little bit of common sense with this?I think that we can all agree that, by RAW, this maneuver is wrong. The problem is, if you're not using the RAW as your standard for what is right, then what do you use? A reasonable interpretation? Easy enough to say, but there are a lot of different reasonable interpretations possible, and none of us here know which one the OP's DM would use. For instance, some DMs might say it just ends the condition, not the effect causing the condition, in which case it'll stop a drow being dazzled by sunlight, but not stop the Sun itself. That interpretation also means that it'd stop a Warblade in a Stinking Cloud from being nauseated (if you let the Warblade take the needed action to use the maneuver), but wouldn't stop the cloud itself. Is that interpretation more correct than Chosen_of_Vecna's interpretation that it ends the entire cloud? If the DM says it is.

On the question of casters using it to end AMFs, it's probably a lot more worthwhile to spend a feat on Martial Study to pick it up, than to spend an entire level on Warblade. Loss of spellcasting is seldom the best option.

Cuddly
2008-04-10, 11:28 AM
It'd be two feats to get, not one.