The Redcloak Antidefemation Thread.

[Paragon Badger]

Redcloak is stupid to torture O-Chul.
His reasons for torturing O-Chul are as such. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) Aside from Serini's diary, Team Evil has no clue where the other gates are, since the Order of the Scribble vowed themselves to secrecy. I would think an order as closely-concerned with the Gates as the Sapphire Guild would have alot of information on them. Obviously, we as readers know that they are kept in the dark as well. How is Redcloak supposed to know that?

Besides, look at the alternative- Should Team Evil just go wandering aimlessly about for Girard and Serin/Kraagor's gate?

Redcloak is evil.
Well duh. This does not make him any less of an entertaining character, though. Redcloak is not omnicidal or crazy. He is lawful evil. In all of Redcloak's evil deeds, it has been for the purpose of something greater than the deed itself. This makes for an ultimately very believable villian.

You don't have to agree with someone to think they are a good character. :smalltongue:

As Xykon said, "We're the bad guys. We play hard ball."

[Phase]

You tell um, Badger. I support this 100% and still love Redcloak.

[Trazoi]

Redcloak is stupid to torture O-Chul.
His reasons for torturing O-Chul are [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html]as such.[url] Aside from Serini's diary, Team Evil has no clue where the other gates are, since the Order of the Scribble vowed themselves to secrecy. I would think an order as closely-concerned with the Gates as the Sapphire Guild would have alot of information on them. Obviously, we as readers know that they are kept in the dark as well. How is Redcloak supposed to know that?

Besides, look at the alternative- Should Team Evil just go wandering aimlessly about for Girard and Serin/Kraagor's gate?
I was under the impression that Team Evil knew roughly where all the gates were from deciphering the diary. The main problem is they've only got a very vague idea of how they are protected. Every gate they've encounted thus far have had a nasty surprise that has set them back and almost finished them off in most cases.

(Lirians' Gate: contains spoilers from The Start of Darkness)

While Team Evil probably guessed Lirian's gate was protected by the power of the forest and druids, they hadn't counted on the strange disease that sapped arcane casters of their magic ability. If the druids hadn't been nice enough to imprison them and if Xykon hadn't been able to regain his powers from transformation into a lich, it'd been Game Over before the series had begun.

Dorukan had his gates sealed up tight with magic that Team Evil never figured out how to break (Elan blew it all up before their last theory was put to the test).

And Soon's gate had an extra layer of defence that very few people knew about and if it weren't for the interference of Miko it would've gone very badly for Xykon and Redcloak.

Strangely I'm not sure why Xykon isn't more concerned about figuring out what awaits him at the next gate; it's him who usually gets the worse of it. But I guess it's against Xykon's temperament to plan more than one step ahead :smallamused:.

[Trizap]

well yea.....

with Girards Gate, it said theres going to be illusions, lots of them, and I'm guessing the Girrard would throw in a few real stuff for good measure to keep intruders on their toes,I can imagine the numerous confusing stuff happening, such as two castles, illusionary pits, paths that lead in the wrong direction, multiple illusionary gates, fake walls, real guards mixed in with fake ones, empty rooms with an illusion of a dragon inside, make it so that people have trouble telling whats real and whats fake, dangerous things disguised as things that aren't as dangerous, the works.

and then theres Kraagors Gate, filled with all those monsters and beasts....:smalleek:

[factotum]

What Redcloak defamation? :smallconfused: Yes, we know he's evil...does that excuse what he's doing or mean we ought to like him?

[Moriarty]

Strangely I'm not sure why Xykon isn't more concerned about figuring out what awaits him at the next gate; it's him who usually gets the worse of it. But I guess it's against Xykon's temperament to plan more than one step ahead :smallamused:.

i think, Xykon would be far more concerned about is, if RC weren't already working hard on that stuff.

altough I'd head to Kraagors gate, going through an hardcore dungeon seems far more easy for an epic lich, highlv priest with an artifact and the Mitd. given the favt serini designed the tomb how a barbarian would have defended the gate, i wouldn't expect many traps or riddles

[Trazoi]

altough I'd head to Kraagors gate, going through an hardcore dungeon seems far more easy for an epic lich, highlv priest with an artifact and the Mitd. given the favt serini designed the tomb how a barbarian would have defended the gate, i wouldn't expect many traps or riddles
Well, we already know a priori that Xykon's going to head for Girard's gate next due to the Oracle, although I'm not sure what the reasoning is for Redcloak to pick that one. Possibly because it's easier to get to?

Even so, I'm sure Kraagor's gate will end up the toughest of the lot. All we know is what the paladins know about how Serini defended that gate. I'm sure it's mostly designed how a barbarian would defend it, but a bubbly halfling rogue is still a rogue; I'm sure she'll have put in a few interesting tricks of her own. :smallsmile:

[lonewolf23k]

Frankly, in terms of Redcloak's torture of O-Chul, he's actually been pretty smart about it. He knows that direct physical harm isn't going to scare the Paladin, so instead he's using a variant on the "Buddy System": "Okay, either you tell us what you know, or we'll do something unspeakable to this innocent person you care for because you're so Good."

Besides, I think Xykon, Tsukiko and the Hobgoblin priest have demonstrated that O-Chul is completly unconcerned with physical pain.

[Renegade Paladin]

It isn't defamation if it's true, and if Belkar's evil is measured in kilonazis, Redcloak just jumped into the meganazi range. Perhaps even giganazi, but I'd personally save that for when he's actually destroyed their immortal souls.

[Silkenfist]

It isn't defamation if it's true, and if Belkar's evil is measured in kilonazis, Redcloak just jumped into the meganazi range. Perhaps even giganazi, but I'd personally save that for when he's actually destroyed their immortal souls.



Redcloak is evil.
Well duh. This does not make him any less of an entertaining character, though.

The defense rests...

We are not the Miko fans. We don't try to justify his actions, we don't try to make his deeds seem righteous. We don't want to say you should like Redcloak. However, we DO want to stress that RC is sane (although evil enough to qualify for several antisocial disorders).

[BRC]

You must also admire Redcloaks adherence to the scientific principles, he is including a control group in his experiment.

[Gamerlord]

hooray redclock! i hate all plaadins ands good guys

[1nfinite zer0]

Redcloak is a great and developed character. He might have little regard for human (or hobgoblin) life, but he is not playfully sadistic as Xykon and I think this makes him less evil. PCs can slaughter monsters with impunity, but a well orchestrated campaign by a monster makes him a nazi? I think not. In fact, I think Red Cloak would be one of the first to turn to aid the OotS if he saw evidence of his plans working against his ultimate goal.

And yeah, totally sane, way too rational and methodical to be considered insane. By far one of the most badass goblin characters around.

[Silkenfist]

Redcloak is a great and developed character. He might have little regard for human (or hobgoblin) life, but he is not playfully sadistic as Xykon and I think this makes him less evil.

I think betting the lifes (and souls, for some reason that seems to matter for some readers) of every being of the world in order for your plan of world domination to succeed puts you so far into Evil that you are high-fived by Balors and young Succubi collect your fan merchandise.

[Falconer]

In fact, I think Redcloak would be one of the first to turn to aid the OotS if he saw evidence of his plans working against his ultimate goal.

Perhaps, but I suspect that he is by now far too blinded by prejudice and racism (or rather speciesism) to help them just like that...


But don't get me wrong. Redcloak=awesome.

[Timberboar]

Wah, wah, wah.

I'm hearing a lot of whining about Redcloak's evil in regards to the obliteration of not only every living being on the planet, but also their very souls.

Well... so what? When the Snarl gets loose, he'll unmake creation. So... those souls go from existing to not having EVER existed. No one dies. No one feels pain. No one is locked in an eternity of torment. Why? Because once the Snarl is free, they'll have NEVER EXISTED in the first place.

See? No harm, no foul.

:xykon:

[Renegade Paladin]

hooray redclock! (sic) i hate all plaadins (sic) ands (sic) good guys
Is there some sort of problem here? You like mass murderers and hate people who try to stop them? :smallconfused:

[Paladin29]

Wah, wah, wah.

I'm hearing a lot of whining about Redcloak's evil in regards to the obliteration of not only every living being on the planet, but also their very souls.

Well... so what? When the Snarl gets loose, he'll unmake creation. So... those souls go from existing to not having EVER existed. No one dies. No one feels pain. No one is locked in an eternity of torment. Why? Because once the Snarl is free, they'll have NEVER EXISTED in the first place.

See? No harm, no foul.

:xykon:

I´m sorry but nihilism is not a aceptable philosophy for the 99% of humanity, so forgive me if i don´t agree with that..

And for the topic of this thread... yes... Redcloack is evil and is a great character, i love him as a reader (if i met someone like him in real life i´ll put in prision), i love good villains and i love when those villains are defeated at the end of the story...

[Timberboar]

I´m sorry but nihilism is not a aceptable philosophy for the 99% of humanity, so forgive me if i don´t agree with that..

You appear to not know what nihilism is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nihilism

But regardless, the point stands. If creation is unmade, no one is killed because there was never anyone to kill in the first place. If the Snarl is thwarted, then creation is NOT unmade and everything remains as it is. The situation is closer to a time paradox than nihilism.

[Renegade Paladin]

If the Snarl is released, creation is destroyed. Those people did all exist, and they were all utterly annihilated; there's no time paradox.

[Timberboar]

If the Snarl is released, creation is destroyed. Those people did all exist, and they were all utterly annihilated; there's no time paradox.

Destroyed, unmade. We're quibbling details now. If a tree falls in the woods and no one's around, does it make a sound? If everyone is killed and there's no one left to mourn them, is it really a tragedy?

Practically speaking, there's little difference between destruction and lack-of-creation. And I said it was LIKE a time paradox, not that is WAS one.

Anyway, I'll be happy to concede the point after the Snarl is released if you can dig me up a witness. :)

Edit: *chuckle* I feel like spouting some nonsense about Schrodinger's Stick People -- they both DO exist and DO NOT exist at the same time. Only upon reaching the conclusion of the storyline wil their state be set.

[Renegade Paladin]

Survivors? The gods survived the Snarl's first attack, presumably along with mortals who had died and gone to the outer planes. The Snarl killed the gods of the East and destroyed the Prime Material; it didn't undo all of creation. Now, that might not be true of a second release, but the Dark One seems to think it likely.

[Kish]

Destroyed, unmade. We're quibbling details now.
No. The difference between "llived, but was destroyed" and "never lived" is very far from a "detail," rhetoric aside.

[Timberboar]

No. The difference between "llived, but was destroyed" and "never lived" is very far from a "detail," rhetoric aside.

:) The rhetoric was kinda the point. I'm being somewhat ironic. Sorry, guys and gals, but I'm having fun here. Don't take any of my arguments personally, I just find defending an undefendable position to be amusing. It's the devil's advocate in me.

Renegade Paladin: You make a strong point invoking the gods. The Dark One's plan obviously involves him SURVIVING the Snarl's rampage, so there's your witness. However, being separate from creation themselves, I don't know that the same rules apply. Does having existed in the memory of a god count as having existed in truth?

Edit: For that matter, the Dark One is a creation of that world and not one of the original gods. Would the unmaking of the world, then, unmake the god? I wouldn't think the Dark One would make a mistake like that, which lends further credence to the destroyed vs. unmade argument. I hate to shoot down my own argument, but it's an interesting thought that deserves to be explored, I think.

[Sixscimitars]

Redcloak's probably the most well-written guy in OOTS. Sure, he's a nihilistic, genocidal zealot, but he simultaneously manages to come off as likable, well-meaning, and intelligent. He provides a rational contrast to Xykon's insane Chaotic Stupidity and MITD's flat, childish stupidity, and he's pretty unique in the comic itself-the only character who seems much like him is Miko. He is evil, but that is far from a reason to hate him-after all, the Belkar Fan Club is huge.

[Calinero]

I am a huge fan of Redcloak, he is by far my favorite villain, and one of my favorite characters. Because he was balanced. He was the epitome of being a villain, while still being someone you can sympathize with. However, this has changed recently--he is proving himself to be as unfair a tyrant over humans as humans are over goblins. Nobody likes a hypocrite. I am waiting for him to go back to being...well....more Lawful, I suppose. Realizing that he's being hypocritical.

[Renegade Paladin]

And now we can add "stupid" to Redcloak's rapidly growing list of flaws. :smallamused:

[Paladin29]

You appear to not know what nihilism is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nihilism


Look at the 2a definition of your own reference and then try to understand what interpretation i was making.

by the way... I agree with Kish

[Silkenfist]

And now we can add "stupid" to Redcloak's rapidly growing list of flaws. :smallamused:

Uhm...and why, exactly?

1. he still has no Information source other than O-Chul. Even if there is the slightest possibility of him knowing anything, it's worth pursuing it.

2. are his methods rather mindboggingly evil than stupid. After all, the slaves are expendable and maybe the scientific experiment will yield a result anyway.

3. doesn't make the fact that O-Chul has the 'last word' in the comic his argument the better one necessarily. In fact, there positions haven't changed and they are only repeating what we already know - your critizism is not more valid than it was at #543

4. is it not that clear if O-Chul's razor is sharper than Redcloaks. After all, the idea of some weird sourcebook or homebrew that contains an alternate class feature or feat that shields the mind from Divination is not too far-fetched. Also the idea of O-Chul not knowing anything about the gates is as likely as a bodyguard who doesn't actually know the person, he is protecting - he is just travelling around the world hunting assassins.
Still, even Redcloak's razor is blunt since it would need to shield against Divination, Psionics and maybe even Enchantment effects to resist Compulsion. However, RC's theory is based on 'There is some feat that shields his mind' without stating how exactly it could be bypassed. Improbable but still conceivable.

[Paragon Badger]

And now we can add "stupid" to Redcloak's rapidly growing list of flaws. :smallamused:

Nope, merely Overdedicated.

You'd be amazed at how brilliant men can blind themselves to the periphery when they focus solely on their goals.


I am a huge fan of Redcloak, he is by far my favorite villain, and one of my favorite characters. Because he was balanced. He was the epitome of being a villain, while still being someone you can sympathize with. However, this has changed recently--he is proving himself to be as unfair a tyrant over humans as humans are over goblins. Nobody likes a hypocrite. I am waiting for him to go back to being...well....more Lawful, I suppose. Realizing that he's being hypocritical.

Is revenge or 'justice' hypocritical? -or even unlawful?


No. The difference between "llived, but was destroyed" and "never lived" is very far from a "detail," rhetoric aside.

There is only a difference from those who survive.

Those who are unmade know and feel nothing. It is as if they never existed. :smallamused:

Thus, if everyone and everything is unmade- it is as if existence never was.[/final fantasy villian speech]

[MythicFox]

Strangely I'm not sure why Xykon isn't more concerned about figuring out what awaits him at the next gate; it's him who usually gets the worse of it. But I guess it's against Xykon's temperament to plan more than one step ahead :smallamused:.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's been established that it's against Xykon's temperament to plan even that first step ahead.

[Paragon Badger]

I beg to differ, it's more along the lines of...

Step 1: Get Gates
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit!

[Renegade Paladin]

Uhm...and why, exactly?

1. he still has no Information source other than O-Chul. Even if there is the slightest possibility of him knowing anything, it's worth pursuing it.

2. are his methods rather mindboggingly evil than stupid. After all, the slaves are expendable and maybe the scientific experiment will yield a result anyway.

3. doesn't make the fact that O-Chul has the 'last word' in the comic his argument the better one necessarily. In fact, there positions haven't changed and they are only repeating what we already know - your critizism is not more valid than it was at #543

4. is it not that clear if O-Chul's razor is sharper than Redcloaks. After all, the idea of some weird sourcebook or homebrew that contains an alternate class feature or feat that shields the mind from Divination is not too far-fetched. Also the idea of O-Chul not knowing anything about the gates is as likely as a bodyguard who doesn't actually know the person, he is protecting - he is just travelling around the world hunting assassins.
Still, even Redcloak's razor is blunt since it would need to shield against Divination, Psionics and maybe even Enchantment effects to resist Compulsion. However, RC's theory is based on 'There is some feat that shields his mind' without stating how exactly it could be bypassed. Improbable but still conceivable.
Before I answer this, let me ask you a question. Do you understand the reference of the strip's title? Whether you do or not dictates how I need to approach this.

[Silkenfist]

I am familiar with Occam's Razor, no need to explain it to me. And I know that the punchline of the strip is the fact that O-Chul's application of Occam's razor seems to refute Redcloak's application of the same principle. However, O-Chul achieves this only by stating the situation in an extremely abstract and vague form while Redcloak takes several key factors into account (This is D&D, there could be all sorts of weird class features, O-Chul is a member of the Order sworn to protect the gates, etc...)

Who of the two has the better logic? Tough question, don't feel like answering it. I merely want to state that Redcloak's logic is not necessarily stupid.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's not a tough question. Redcloak invented a conspiracy theory out of whole cloth, and the alternative is O-Chul not knowing anything. Which is, by necessity, the simpler alternative that fits the facts?

O-Chul took Redcloak to school, and he knows it. Just take a look at his face in the last few panels.

[Paladin29]

No... stupid no... RC is really intelligent, in fact the term "mastermind" is more suitable (by far) to RC than to Xykon.. however RC is fooling himself. The most weird thing about that is RC thinks that his answer is the most simple.

[lord of kobolds]

Sure, Redcloak is evil, but he has good intentions. he is not for the whole "destroy the world" thing, he is trying to get revenge against those who have attacked those nearest to him.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

No. The difference between "llived, but was destroyed" and "never lived" is very far from a "detail," rhetoric aside.


The first time creation was "unmade" it was not painless delete but scream filled destruction. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)

[Silkenfist]

It's not a tough question. Redcloak invented a conspiracy theory out of whole cloth, and the alternative is O-Chul not knowing anything. Which is, by necessity, the simpler alternative that fits the facts?

O-Chul took Redcloak to school, and he knows it. Just take a look at his face in the last few panels.

1. Conspiracy Theory out of whole cloth? The Sapphire Guard is a fact and they have killed a large part of Redcloak's tribe to defend the gates. You might think that would be reasonable grounds for theories.

2. Once again, this use of Occam's razor only works because you are leaving out several factors of the situation. Like, for example, the fact that the subject, O-Chul isn't supposed to know anything about, is the subject he devoted his entire life to.

3. (as I had already mentioned) The one who has the last word in the strip doesn't need to be the one who is right by objective means (if they are even applicable).

[Lupy]

Think, a lawful nuetral or possibly even good wizard, rogue, or ranger (some not morally aligned classes for an example) would probably sleep fine after sending dozens of goblins to their deaths. I feel redcloak is not evil as in killing puppies and kidnapping babies. He's evil because he wants to make humans ("good") equal to or below him, instead of goblins ("evil") suffering needlessly.

[EvilElitest]

Is there some sort of problem here? You like mass murderers and hate people who try to stop them? :smallconfused:

Has he been reading too much Malthus?
from
EE

[lonewolf23k]

While I agree that Redcloak is, indeed, an Intelligent character, I'm starting to wonder just how high his Wisdom score actually is. He's so focused on his own narrow little logic box that he's willfully ignoring the glaringly obvious...

The Sapphire Guard was a secretive order. Secretive orders do not, as a rule, entrust their most vital information to the rank-and-file agents like O-Chul and the other Paladins. Such knowledge is kept safely in the hands of the order's leaders, who then hand out orders to the agents so that they may complete missions with objectives that may seem completly obscure to outsiders and the agents themselves, but which makes perfect sense to the leaders who know what's actually going on.

Redcloak is focusing far too much attention on a rank-and-file agent like O-Chul, getting him to say what he thinks he knows, while ignoring the simple fact that O-Chul can simply point him in the direction of the individuals most likely to actually have the desired information.

...But then, I think part of Redcloak's problem is that the interrogation may just be an excuse to torture a Human Paladin, which is something he doubly hates. This Hatred may be clouding his judgement.

[Mewtarthio]

Hey, look at it from Redcloak's perspective. Either:

A) O-Chul knows everything, in which case these tortures will eventually get him the knowledge he desires, or

B) O-Chul knows nothing, in which case he's still got an "expirement" to run and gets to torture one of the accursed Sapphire Guard in the meantime.

It's a win-win situation!

[Paragon Badger]

O-Chul is hardly rank-and-file. He was given the duty to protect the gate, even given command of dozens of paladins to do so.

I'd probably name him as the number 3 man in the Sapphire Guard, behind Hinjo and Miko. Well...Number 2 now, at least.