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Gorbash
2008-04-06, 01:25 PM
One of my players (Cleric with Vow of Poverty, aiming towards Radiant Servant of Pelor) has asked me if he could become a Saint somewhere during our Savage Tide campaign (they're level 1 currenyl, we have just began), and since I'm still a noob as a DM (my first DMing experience, but been playing for 5 years), I ask the boards to help me out on this one. Saint is an acquired template from BoED, and gives a +2 LA, but I think it's way overpowered. But then again, he's not a standard cleric. He has aging penalties (-6 to physical stats +3 to mental), but at this point I am not sure what will he be able to do at later levels with both this and VoP. Thoughts?

Glyde
2008-04-06, 01:42 PM
Sainthood is pretty awesome - though I'd be reluctant to give it to someone with VoP. I always thought it'd be good if you could have one or the other and not both.

I haven't actually tested a character with both but it just seems like too much.

Saint Nil
2008-04-06, 01:54 PM
What abilities do Saints get? And what makes them so overpowered?

Gorbash
2008-04-06, 02:14 PM
Where to start...

Holy power - +2 on DC of every special attack, spell or spell-like ability
Holy Touch - additional D6 dmg on all attacks against evil creatures, D8 against evil outsiders and undead, those who hit him take the mentioned damage
Spell-like abilities - guidance, resistance, virtue and bless
Damage reduction - 4-7th lvl 5/magic; 8-11 5/evil; 12+ 10/evil
Fast healing - equal to half of his HD
Immunities - acid, cold, electricity and petrification
Low-Light and Darkvision
Can activate an aura which radiates light out to 20 feet and functions as a magic circle against evil and lesser globe of invulnerability
Resistance to fire 10 and +4 on saves against poison
Tongues
Con +2, Wis +2, Cha +4

+2 LA, must have 3 exalted feats (and he gets bonus exalted feats with Vow of Poverty), and make an extraordinary sacrifice.

I think it can get out of hand, and that, at some point, I won't be able to do anything to him, so that's why I'm reluctant, but I'm just asking if anyone had experience with Saints... But from my point of view this is too much.

dman11235
2008-04-06, 02:27 PM
...I'm still a noob as a DM (my first DMing experience, but been playing for 5 years)...

That right there is a red flag. There is a reason the BoED has the 'M' tag on it, and it's not violence or nudity.

Point is, since you're new, you shouldn't use that book at all, at least unless you're sure you can handle the heavy requirements for exalted stuff.

Now, the template is nicely balanced IMO. Sure it's only a +2 LA with fast healing, nice stat boosts, a load of immunities, and a bunch of other nice stuff, but you are forgetting one very important thing: you can never have committed an evil act. Ever. Not even if you atone. And you must have (and keep) three exalted feats. These require heavy RPing to pull off, and so does the template. Yes, it is balanced with roleplaying. That's why it takes experience to use and a mature mindset to not abuse.

Collin152
2008-04-06, 02:31 PM
That right there is a red flag. There is a reason the BoED has the 'M' tag on it, and it's not violence or nudity.

Point is, since you're new, you shouldn't use that book at all, at least unless you're sure you can handle the heavy requirements for exalted stuff.

Now, the template is nicely balanced IMO. Sure it's only a +2 LA with fast healing, nice stat boosts, a load of immunities, and a bunch of other nice stuff, but you are forgetting one very important thing: you can never have committed an evil act. Ever. Not even if you atone. And you must have (and keep) three exalted feats. These require heavy RPing to pull off, and so does the template. Yes, it is balanced with roleplaying. That's why it takes experience to use and a mature mindset to not abuse.


No evil acts?!
Hmm...
I want to play a saint now, if only for the extreme roleplaying challenge I will be presented with.

FlyMolo
2008-04-06, 02:36 PM
Spell-like abilities - guidance, resistance, virtue and bless
Damage reduction - 4-7th lvl 5/magic; 8-11 5/evil; 12+ 10/evil
Fast healing - equal to half of his HD

These are the only ones you might have problems with. In fact, the FH is the worst part. Halve the fast healing, gimp the DR a little, and just apply it(skip the LA) if he earns it somehow. Make it hard.

Or give the whole kit and kaboodle, but make him pay the LA. Watch the FH, though. Maybe get rid of it completely, or make it /minute, if you're worried.

Douglas
2008-04-06, 02:40 PM
The authors explicitly admit in the same book that the Saint template is deliberately overpowered for its level adjustment. They supposedly "balanced" this with the stringent rp requirements - you really do have to act like a saint, and if you don't you lose the template.

Vow of Poverty, on the other hand, is significantly underpowered if you stay reasonably close to recommended Character Wealth By Level (see page 135 of the DMG). The math has been done many times by various different people - the bonuses Vow of Poverty gives, ignoring the bonus feats, can be duplicated with money to spare by the amount of equipment suggested by that table, and are a great deal less flexible. The bonus feats, meanwhile, are generally lackluster and you tend to run out of useful ones very quickly.

So, my recommendation depends on how much equipment you plan to let your PCs have.
1) If your campaign is far below recommended WBL, Vow of Poverty should be either banned or altered to be more in line with the wealth it is actually replacing. Saint may need to have its level adjustment increased, or you can just reduce the Vow's benefits to the point where Saint just brings him up to par.
2) If your campaign is somewhat below WBL, the Vow should be fine but Saint could use another +1 or 2 to its level adjustment.
3) If your campaign is pretty close to WBL, the combination should be fine. The underpowered Vow of Poverty and the overpowered Saint template should balance each other out reasonably well.
4) If your campaign is significantly above WBL, your player is gimping himself. Watch carefully as the campaign proceeds, you may need to increase the benefits of Vow of Poverty to keep him from being sidelined. If he's having fun anyway, though, or is a good enough optimizer to keep up despite the Vow, then leave it as written.

Saint Nil
2008-04-06, 04:10 PM
Wow, that template awesome. The never commit an evil act idea though should balance it out, but if you can convince your DM your act isn't evil(like the greater good philoshopy) you could lead up to some serious brokeness.

dman11235
2008-04-06, 04:20 PM
Thing is, greater good doesn't apply. Any evil act, whether the outcome is good or not, will cause you to lose the template. And then you're stuck at a lower level than the rest of the party.

Collin152
2008-04-06, 04:21 PM
Thing is, greater good doesn't apply. Any evil act, whether the outcome is good or not, will cause you to lose the template. And then you're stuck at a lower level than the rest of the party.

Is it evil to kill evil creatures?

dman11235
2008-04-06, 04:30 PM
You decide. Is it? Quite possibly the answer is yes. The entirety of alignment in, well, everything is open to interpretation on a small scale. Large scale is easier to set standards though.

Is killing inherently an evil act? What if it is out of mercy? Self-defense? To prevent more death? What if the person you killed was good, and it was an accident? What if the person was going to commit vast evil, and the only way to stop him or her was to kill them?

Is the evil in killing (if killing is evil) a part of the suffering induced? If so, what if you kill them in a painless fashion?

Gorbash
2008-04-06, 04:31 PM
Wow, that template awesome. The never commit an evil act idea though should balance it out, but if you can convince your DM your act isn't evil(like the greater good philoshopy) you could lead up to some serious brokeness.

I'm the DM. :D One of my players aspires to become a saint, and I don't think I'm going to allow it. Especially in combination with Vow of Poverty. It's just too much. I wouldn't be able to damage him, let alone incapacitate him, he's immune to almost everything.

dman11235
2008-04-06, 04:46 PM
You just aren't thinking outside the box. There are plenty of ways to damage him, one of them being physical damage (everyone always overlooks that for some reason), another is death attacks, and a third is kind of abstract: challenge his morals. The template is not appropriate for the typical D&D campaign though, and is more suited for a campaign revolving around the exalted rule set, and for NPCs. It's also more for campaigns where encounters are not you vs monster, but you diplomatizing (I like made-up words) your way through with NPCs.

EDIT: the vows are also kind of iffy on normal games as well. VoPov is probably the only one that doesn't care much what kind of campaign it's in.

Douglas
2008-04-06, 04:56 PM
"Everything"? I think you are seriously overstating it.

Let's see, Vow of Poverty gives immunity to:
Environmental heat and cold within the range that isn't severe enough to cause damage.
Hunger.
Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, and alignment detection (why? wouldn't it be obvious from his exalted behavior?).
The need to breathe.
Grappling and magical movement impairment (as Freedom of Movement)
Illusions that are defeated by True Seeing.

Saint gives immunity to:
Acid, cold, electricity, and petrification.
Mental control/possession.
Natural attacks by non-good summoned creatures, provided he does not attack them and beats any SR they may have.
3rd level and lower spells.

That is so far from "everything" that it almost makes me think you don't even know the meaning of the word. Some things that he is not immune to, just off the top of my head:
Phantasmal Killer, Orb of Fire, weapon attacks, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, Enervation, Delayed Blast Fireball, natural weapon attacks, tripping, fear effects, flaming weapons, critical hits, sneak attacks, Slay Living, ability damage, poison, Plane Shift...
I could go on for quite a long time, especially if I hadn't restricted myself to listing from memory.

Oh, and his DR is /evil, which is automatically bypassed by all attacks from many of his more powerful natural enemies. Pretty much all demons and devils automatically consider all weapons they wield to be evil, for example.

Seriously, compare what he gets from Vow of Poverty to what he could buy with recommended Wealth by Level. The Vow is weak, and Saint is not that overpowering.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-06, 05:04 PM
Actually, VoP DOES make you immune to Phantasmal Killer. I think.

Does no one else realize that Saint lets you add your Wisdom to AC? I would never allow the template.

dman11235
2008-04-06, 05:14 PM
It lets you add wis to AC, yeah. This is old news. You seriously think that is the overpowering part of the template?

Douglas
2008-04-06, 05:17 PM
Actually, VoP DOES make you immune to Phantasmal Killer. I think.
Let's see, fear immunity... nope. Death effects immunity, nope. Mind-affecting immunity, nope. True Seeing... Ok, I'll grant you that one, the will save is listed as being for disbelief which True Seeing would make you pass automatically. Still, you don't get that until level 18, at which point a mere 4th level spell shouldn't be that much of a threat anyway.


Does no one else realize that Saint lets you add your Wisdom to AC? I would never allow the template.
So? Monks get that too, and with one level less invested into it. Sure, the Saint bonus works in armor, but VoP prohibits armor so that doesn't matter for this character anyway.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-06, 05:18 PM
Absolutely. Nothing else in the template compares, from a practical standpoint.

Especially as a cleric, druid, or Apostle of Peace. Nab a monk level, pump your wisdom, and you are untouchable.

Contrary to popular belief, it is easier to get high AC than high + attack, as a PC. Nothing will be able to touch you if you're built well.

True Seeing was on the list of immunities you put there.

Why not do both? One is an insight bonus, so your DM can't even argue that you can't add a Wisdom bonus twice.

The massive AC bonus is what makes the template give the survivability it needs to be worth +2 LA. Without it, it's just okay.

dman11235
2008-04-06, 05:24 PM
I call fallacy on that. Just because one combination is really powerful doesn't mean the entire thing is broken. Think of that sorcerer with 10 wis (because of the template) and no monk levels. What benefit does he get from that? And the, oh, every other class that does not need high wisdom? Sure it can be powerful, but what's a high AC on a build that specializes in AC defense? Besides, I've made builds with AC 70 at level 20, without a high wisdom. It was high con, and with a high natural armor on top of that. No saint either.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-06, 05:27 PM
Um, okay, yes, there are other ways to get a lot of AC, and yes, a character may not have high wisdom and won't get much from the template...

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

Don't worry, Planar Shepherd isn't overpowered, you might have 7 wisdom, and trade away Wild Shape! Weapon Finesse is a bad feat because you need higher Dex than strength... Power Attack is bad for casters.

Magnor Criol
2008-04-06, 11:35 PM
Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with the way these features play out in-game, since I've never actually played with them, but the immunities and, particularly, fast healing "pale in comparison" to the AC bonus? The Wis to AC is something you can get from a 1-level dip in a core class. Things like fast healing? That's not so easily accessible, nor are the various immunities. (Which, as has been said, is definitely not comprehensive, but there are quite a few of them.)

Gorbash, listen do DaMan here: make sure you're playing the right kind of game for this template before you award it to him. It's a roleplaying-balanced template and as such requires a different gameplay style than your basic DnD game. You as the DM will need to take careful note of all of this PC's actions, judging their morality at every turn. The player needs to know that you can, and will, take the template away if he commits an evil act. Perhaps, for the first couple of questionable acts he accidentally slips in, give him a warning ("You sure you want to do that?" With a meaningful tone in your voice) and after that, pull out the safety net.

Don't be a super-legalistic jerk about it, but make sure he knows: never committing an evil act is part of the template, it's not just a suggestion, and just because it's fluff-only and not crunch stuff doesn't mean that it can be brushed aside, here.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-06, 11:39 PM
DR isn't THAT hard to get. Bonuses to stats? Sure, good, not worth +2 LA.

Fast Healing is good, but only if you can survive a round. With the amount of sheer damage output a highly optimized thing can do, it doesn't matter as much as it can.

+4 to +10 to AC? That's ridiculous.

Collin152
2008-04-06, 11:41 PM
Fast Healing is good, but only if you can survive a round. With the amount of sheer damage output a highly optimized thing can do, it doesn't matter as much as it can.


It also eliminates any need for downtime healing.
Just throwing that out there.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-06, 11:44 PM
So does a wand of cure light wounds, and the ability from VoP helps too.

Collin152
2008-04-06, 11:58 PM
So does a wand of cure light wounds, and the ability from VoP helps too.

Cure Light Wounds wands are a resource.
Fast Healing removes the need to drain resources.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-07, 12:04 AM
Levels are a far more important resource.

Gorbash
2008-04-07, 03:35 AM
Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with the way these features play out in-game, since I've never actually played with them, but the immunities and, particularly, fast healing "pale in comparison" to the AC bonus? The Wis to AC is something you can get from a 1-level dip in a core class. Things like fast healing? That's not so easily accessible, nor are the various immunities. (Which, as has been said, is definitely not comprehensive, but there are quite a few of them.)

Gorbash, listen do DaMan here: make sure you're playing the right kind of game for this template before you award it to him. It's a roleplaying-balanced template and as such requires a different gameplay style than your basic DnD game. You as the DM will need to take careful note of all of this PC's actions, judging their morality at every turn. The player needs to know that you can, and will, take the template away if he commits an evil act. Perhaps, for the first couple of questionable acts he accidentally slips in, give him a warning ("You sure you want to do that?" With a meaningful tone in your voice) and after that, pull out the safety net.

Don't be a super-legalistic jerk about it, but make sure he knows: never committing an evil act is part of the template, it's not just a suggestion, and just because it's fluff-only and not crunch stuff doesn't mean that it can be brushed aside, here.

While we're at moralities... Savage Tide spoilers ahead.

Near the end of the Savage Tide adventure path they'll have to make some deals with demons in order to kill Demogorgon... Is that evil?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-07, 04:01 AM
If you allow him the Saint template, he will be annoyingly hard to kill his whole career - just think about him casting Protection From Energy and Death Ward on himself before a fight.

On the other hand, he's effectively losing two whole levels of caster progression. That's two more levels until he just Holy Words entire encounters away, and when he finally gets those coveted 7th level spells, he'll cast them at 2 fewer caster levels than he normally would.

Don't get me wrong, Saint's a powerful template, especially right when he first gets it, but he'll really start to miss the full spellcasting at higher levels.

Pironious
2008-04-07, 06:31 AM
but you are forgetting one very important thing: you can never have committed an evil act. Ever.

Not exactly true. You are never allowed to commit an evil act, even if you atone, AFTER you become good. Unless I've forgotten a line somewhere, it's actually possible to become a Saint after being redeemed, albeit a lot more challenging. Afterall, one doesn't go from neutral/evil to exalted good in an instant, and even then have to pick up 3 exalted feats.

In all honestly, I can't stand the template. I play in what is basically an exalted good game, all players are bound by the RP restrictions, one is currently a saint, most of the others will never get the template. Why? Because you need 3 exalted feats. We're currently a 14th level group, and all have Servant of the Heavens as a bonus feat, yet no one other than the cleric has been willing to get exalted feats, because we've got other things that'll benefit us more.

Lets face it, for the melee characters, what is there? Sanctify Martial Strike?

Ziren
2008-04-07, 06:40 AM
While we're at moralities... Savage Tide spoilers ahead.

Near the end of the Savage Tide adventure path they'll have to make some deals with demons in order to kill Demogorgon... Is that evil?

I'd say it depends rather on what the deal is about than with whom you made it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-07, 06:42 AM
Why do all of the Exalted Feats suck?!? I'm playing a VoP Paladin//Swordsage right now, and I'm almost out of feats to pick. Not because I have so many, but because I have nothing I want to waste the space on my sheet on. when you look at situational +1 or +1d4 damage and think "Maybe", then you know there's a problem. Especially since I'm still short on the feats I need. :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2008-04-07, 08:18 AM
the "allowing a fiend to exist, let along consorting with one, is clearly evil" clause in Vile Darkness was not very well thought out. Better to use the " co-operating with evil creatures in a good cause is dangerous, but not automatically evil" clause in exalted deeds.

Plus, the celestials (eladrins) are willing according to the adventure path. So why hold PCs to a higher standard than celestials? Same standard, yes, but not a higher one.

now convincing demons to work with celestials should not be easy, but if you can do it without actually actively commiting any acts worse than "Associating with Evil Creatures" in order to build the alliance, more power to you, and DM should allow you to keep exalted status.