OOTS #546 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Brother Arthur]

O-Chul is the man. There is hope yet.

[BRC]

"I have that lampshade you requested"
"Just hang it anywhere"
PRICELESS, but I can't figure out which trope is being lampshaded...unless they are lampshading the trope of lampshading!

[Timberboar]

Hang a lampshade on it. Heh, classic.

[The Hop Goblin]

No.. not the lampshade... anything but the lampshade!!!

[BooTheHamster]

Absolutely amazing.

[archon_huskie]

Interesting perspective on the different views of the characters.

[Bitzeralisis]

What just happened? :smallconfused:

[Callista]

We just got a confirmation that O-Chul knows nothing (and is seriously badass) and Redcloak is being way too stubborn for his own good.

Hang in there, O-Chul. We're all pulling for you!

Well, except for the die-hard Redcloak fans, who are probably yelling at their screens right now, 'cause that green-skinned, stubborn blob of Evil Cleric is seriously not thinking this through!

[shaddy_24]

Hehe, Redcloak is getting desperate. He needs to know what he will encounter before he goes, if only to justify why he stayed that long, but it seems he has no access to it. That must be irritating.

[Remirach]

Redcloak's colors went back to normal in panel 8...

Is this confirmation he is, indeed, Lawful Evil? I mean not that there was much doubt, but he seems to be relating to O-Chul because of the Lawful aspect here.

Also: Oh, Gods (between this comic and my love for GRRM I just know I'm going to wind up saying that phrase aloud and getting a LOT of weird looks) but I love O-Chul's rebuttal and then Redcloak's "..." [pause.] "I like the way I phrased it better." Whoa, PWNED by the Paladin! In a LOGIC contest, no less!

[The Wanderer]

LMFAO @ the lampshade hanging (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)! :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and thanks for helping to both lampshade and hopefully dispel a lot of silly discussion from the past few days.

Yes, O-Chul did lie. No, the paladins don't know about the other gates.

Get over it folks. :smalltongue:

[IronMouse]

I seriously do not get the lampshade….anybody care to help?

[Swordguy]

@ Ironmouse:

Lanpshade Hanging (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)


Well done, Giant! Well done!

[Deuce]

Hey, we have psionics in the actual story and not just the kids book! Of course, it seems the "magic 8 ball" and fortune cookies are just as good in Redcloak's eyes.

[Timberboar]

Hey, we have psionics in the actual story and not just the kids book! Of course, it seems the "magic 8 ball" and fortune cookies are just as good in Redcloak's eyes.

Nah, what's hilarious there is that Redcloak thinks the magic 8 ball and the fortune cookies are MORE USEFUL than the 18th level Incarnum user. :P

And honestly, I think he might be right.

[Zare]

Umm, seriously, Redcloak should be smart enough to realize that O-Chul doesn't know anything.

[The Extinguisher]

"I have that lampshade you requested"
"Just hang it anywhere"
PRICELESS, but I can't figure out which trope is being lampshaded...unless they are lampshading the trope of lampshading!

They are lampshading the lampshading of the fact that it is true. Or something like that.

[Maulrus]

I'm starting to like O-Chul more and more.

[TARINunit9]

GRAPHICAL ERROR DETECTED: In the 3rd row (I think) Redcloak's skin color is different than the other panels.

That aside, I can get right onto the generic compliments and generic rooting for characters I like! :smalltongue:

[Lira]

I loved that lampshade comment.

By the way, was that three comics in three days in a row? :D It's been a great weekend.

[EvilElitest]

I wonder, is that Blue still around?
from
EE

[Page606]

Medieval philosophy ftw?

[Mr._Michael]

GRAPHICAL ERROR DETECTED: In the 3rd row (I think) Redcloak's skin color is different than the other panels.
I'm thinking it's some sort of effect comparable to a blush... whether it is Health related, or what, I don't know... but it would make a killer diversion thread. I'll have to start one, STAT! Conspiracy theories, AWAY! :smallbiggrin:

[BRC]

Umm, seriously, Redcloak should be smart enough to realize that O-Chul doesn't know anything.
Actually, RC is too smart for his own good, he's overthinking the whole thing, refusing the accept the simple explanation. What Redcloak is doing is saying "If I was the head of the saphire guard, would I leave the other gates alone because of this oath, OR would I take steps to prevent reality from unraveling, oath or no oath." In that regard, he is correct, the leader of the sapphire guard DID think like that! That is exactally what Shojo's opinion was. What Redcloak is NOT considering is how stubbornly lawful the paladins are, he dosn't believe they could be stupid enough to risk existance for this oath.

[Trazoi]

I also enjoyed the lampshading of the lampshading there - I'm a sucker for good meta-humour like that.

[PhantomFox]

That was great. I loved the lampshading, that cracked me up as soon as I saw it.

[Pyro]

Hah, Redcloak just got burned. I that his planning and logic are also his oversight. Awesome comic.

[dogmac]

Logic is obviously Redcloak's main stat.

Great comic Giant

(though the lampshade confused me, but not anyone else. Sigh.... Must look up references)

[OmegaDonut]

Is that a... Xvart?

[Catskin]

Shouldn't Redcloak be shouting "THROW IN THE SECOND GROUP!"?

[Blaznak]

Well, you gotta admit... Redcloak's point of view does sound more logical. :smallsmile:

If you recall what a complex scheme Soon and Roy's dad cooked up to get the Order this far, I'd say Redcloak's theory is probably right on point! :smallamused:

[Porthos]

Hobgoblin: "Supreme Leader, I have that Lampshade (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging) you requested.

:redcloak: "Just hang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshade_hanging) it anywhere.

*snert*

*gwuffle*

*snort*

BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Gaaaaasssp!

BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAWAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That was excellent. I tip my hat to you, sir. You know your audience. :smallcool:

[Smiley_]

Redcloak is not off-color in the 8th panel, just so you know.

Nice comic!

[HOLEkevin]

I had noticed he was a different color several strips ago, but had come to the conclusion that I either didn't know what was going on or was simply wrong. Of course the verification that he is changing colors doesn't really tell me very much either…

Anyway, it was a very funny strip. Dueling logic is a strong staple of OotS for a very good reason.

Maybe Redcloak is a doppleganger or something like that.

[slayerx]

Redcloak also seems to not realize the irony of his statement in the given situation...

He states that by not interfering and having no knowledge of how the other gates are guarded has hindered the sapphire guard's ability to protect the gates, and YET, it is O-chul's lack of knoweldge that is actually helping prevent Redcloak and Xykon from getting to the gate...

Really, if Redcloak can't except the illogic that the Paladins would willingly hinder their ability to protect the gate by maintaining their oath, then he should except the logic that by having no information the paladins can not be forced to reveal vital information to an evil being... which would lead Redcloak to the conclusion that the Paladins do know, it's just the knowledge would be in the head of those at the very top (Shojo and Hinjo) and not given to the rest in order to protect the secret from being taken by evildoers... All in all, the conclusion that O-Chul really does know nothing is still reached...

[Remirach]

JIRIX: That leaves us a bushel of fortune cookies, an 18th-level Incarnium user, and a magic 8-ball we haven't tried.

REDCLOAK: *sigh* OK, bring up the cookies and keep the 8-ball on standby.

I'm guessing the joke is Incarnium users are spectacularly useless in some aspect, but can someone help a non D&Der out?

[SlightlyEvil]

Love it. I burst out laughing at the lampshade line. Personally, I'm still not sure whether the slaves are actually going to be thrown in.

[Querzis]

Redcloak also seems to not realize the irony of his statement in the given situation...

He states that by not interfering and having no knowledge of how the other gates are guarded has hindered the sapphire guard's ability to protect the gates, and YET, it is O-chul's lack of knoweldge that is actually helping prevent Redcloak and Xykon from getting to the gate...

Thats a good point. Well that and the fact that he just said in the last comic that O-chul was the worst liar he ever saw and he dont seems to realize that means he must have been telling the thruth these past few months.

Anyway, O-chul rule. I hope he wont get killed.

[The Giant]

Redcloak is not off-color in the 8th panel, just so you know.

Fixed now.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Yes! 12 years of Fighter not wasted! Go O-Chul!

[Szilard]

Wow, I decided to check right before I went to sleep, and there was a new comic!

[Morgan Wick]

Well, except for the die-hard Redcloak fans, who are probably yelling at their screens right now, 'cause that green-skinned, stubborn blob of Evil Cleric is seriously not thinking this through!

Well, in a D&D based world, his logic actually makes some sort of sense. And he's not as familiar with the Sapphire Guard's hubris as we are. It is a ridiculous story when you get down to it.

On top of that...


Thats a good point. Well that and the fact that he just said in the last comic that O-chul was the worst liar he ever saw and he dont seems to realize that means he must have been telling the thruth these past few months.

Well, consider how O'Chul phrases Redcloak's position in the fourth-to-last panel, which seems to imply that, behind all the defenses Redcloak insists are there, O'Chul wouldn't know on a conscious level. Which, if Redcloak thought about it, would seem to defeat the purpose of giving him the knowledge in the first place, since the knowledge would only be useful for people like Redcloak to pry from his brain, so that doesn't really absolve him much...

[Fish]

The lampshade is being hung because it is a very silly idea that the original paladin would ever agree to any such vow, much less commit such a large force to the same vow.

And that single obstructing vow has been the driving force of the plot for, what? 300 comics now? If Soon had insisted that they all protect the gates equally, the Order of the Stick would never have gotten involved with any of this.

Protect only part of the deserving? Save only some of the universe? That's just a silly vow. So Rich hangs a lampshade on it.

[Charles Phipps]

Protect only part of the deserving? Save only some of the universe? That's just a silly vow. So Rich hangs a lampshade on it.

Actually, I like it.

The best defense for the Gates is everyone forget they exist period.

[Andraste]

GRAPHICAL ERROR DETECTED: In the 3rd row (I think) Redcloak's skin color is different than the other panels.

That's not an error. When they are by the rift, the light from it makes them look different. The 3rd panel was a flashback to somewhere that was not next to the rift.

[eilandesq]

Umm. . .Redcloak? You're a high-level cleric of the Dark One, who--while not omniscient--was around when the whole deal with the Guard went down and probably would have heard some useful things about it. A commune spell and a few well-worded "yes or no" questions would probably be a good idea about now, before you risk ticking off the Snarl and thereby wiping out yourself, Azure City, and any hope of making your plan work.

[Pronounceable]

Well, Redcloak is too smart for his own good. Everyone has those moments. At least everyone smart.

We still love him, though.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Woo hoo! A Blue AND a psionic joke :smallbiggrin:

[The Wanderer]

Umm. . .Redcloak? You're a high-level cleric of the Dark One, who--while not omniscient--was around when the whole deal with the Guard went down and probably would have heard some useful things about it. A commune spell and a few well-worded "yes or no" questions would probably be a good idea about now, before you risk ticking off the Snarl and thereby wiping out yourself, Azure City, and any hope of making your plan work.

Actually, it's virtually certain that consulting with the Dark One wouldn't help Redcloak. SOD Spoilers:

The Dark One was actually unaware of the Rifts in the Snarl's prison at first, and only became aware of it when a goblin cleric was killed by the Snarl at a Rift while fleeing some XP hungry adventurers, and then the other evil gods informed him about the history of the Snarl.

They apparently never bothered to tell the Dark One that there were five such Rifts though, because Redcloak believed that he had blown their only chance at a Gate when Lirian's Gate was accidentally destroyed. (And this is despite the fact that a lot of the Dark One's lore and the history and of the Snarl and such was put directly into Redcloak's mind after he first put on the Crimson Mantle). The only reason Team Evil knew that other Gates existed is because Lirian blabbed about the others in the middle of fighting Xykon.

After that Xykon spent years and years searching for evidence on the others before eventually finding Serini's diary, which was the key to the little information Team Evil has.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm guessing the joke is Incarnium users are spectacularly useless in some aspect, but can someone help a non D&Der out?Incarnum is a form of magic where you basically create permanent (but dismissable) magical items that you can beef up with points called 'essentia.'

And yes, it's completely useless for telepathy of any sort.

[MReav]

He didn't know psionics were being used? What about the children's book "The Little Psion that Could"?

[Wych]

Just when you think Ochul can't get any more awesome...

[gloomanddoom]

O-Chul's razor... *giggles*

I have to say I enjoyed the title more than the actual comic. I miss Haley :smallbiggrin:

[TheCountAlucard]

Awesome comic, Giant.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Actually, RC is too smart for his own good, he's overthinking the whole thing, refusing the accept the simple explanation. What Redcloak is doing is saying "If I was the head of the saphire guard, would I leave the other gates alone because of this oath, OR would I take steps to prevent reality from unraveling, oath or no oath." In that regard, he is correct, the leader of the sapphire guard DID think like that! That is exactally what Shojo's opinion was. What Redcloak is NOT considering is how stubbornly lawful the paladins are, he dosn't believe they could be stupid enough to risk existance for this oath.

And thus we have the problem with all interrogators/torturers: They must assume that their victim, for lack of a better word, knows more than they're saying. So they continue to torture him until they state the "truth". Unfortunately, they don't know the "truth" so no matter how many times they scream, "I don't know!" they won't be believed. Eventually they'll simply state what their interrogator wants them to say, and the interrogator "wins", even if the information is useless.

Very nicely done, Giant.

[Trizap]

I like O-Chuls burn there, it stopped RC right in his tracks, made him pause, yep RC sometimes is too smart for his own good, guess he wasn't using his common sense......

[Fabio_MP]

Great comic!

[CockroachTeaParty]

Sweet! A blue!

Now I want to see an Incarnum user in the OOTS style... Intrigue.

[Mr Teufel]

He didn't know psionics were being used? What about the children's book "The Little Psion that Could"?You believe everything you read children's books?:smallwink:

[Jayngfet]

Is that a... Xvart?

blue goblin

[KIDS]

O-Chul's Razor, and the last 4 panels.... ahahahahahahahahaha! Great work!

[Aerysil]

The purpose of the lampshade will overshadow all other discussions of this comic...

EDIT: Ok, fine, so I'm an illiterate literate.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Wow...never would have expected a cleric to be outwitted by a Paladin... O'Chul is impressive! And remarkably realistic!:smallbiggrin:

[Oracle_Hunter]

This is unacceptable! I can't figure out which Trope the Giant is hanging a lampshade on.

Fridge Logic?
It can't be the Fridge Logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) of having an Order devoted to protecting the Gates not actually know anything about the the other Gates. As the Crayons of Time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) indicate, this deliberate isolationism was to prevent an Epic Party from killing each other instead of defending the world from an Epic Threat. That an Order of Paladins would maintain an Oath for at least a hundred years.

Genre Savvy?
Perhaps he is hanging a lampshade on the prevalence of Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) behavior by his characters? After all, Redcloak's heavy use of Meta-Gaming (obscure sourcebooks, monstrous manuals, "modern" elementals) usually make him Dangerously Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) but here he is resting his "logic" entirely on meta-game knowledge rather than "real life" logic. We know why the Paladins made the Oath in the first place, and it makes perfect sense for an Order of LG types to maintain that Oath unless an incredibly pressing matter (the destruction of the Universe; e.g. the Greater Good) forced them to abridge it. Since Shojo didn't tell them about his fears (for the very reason above! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)), they failed to mobilize, and thus were crushed by Xykon.

Yet, despite this compelling internal logic, Redcloak goes for the "easy" reason - as any Munchkin would tell you. Thus, by showing Redcloak being thwarted by his own Genre Savvy, The Giant is hanging a lampshade on the concept, and making the case for the more conventional, Contractually Genre Blind (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContractualGenreBlindness), evil of Xykon.

So, those were my free-association reactions. In the end, I say the Giant is hanging a lampshade on being too Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy). Anyone else have another candidate?

[rosebud]

As to the concept of swearing an oath and having them follow it be silly, it seems far sillier that the twelve gods have only done one (useful) thing from the start of the current conflict until now: make Miko fall. (Well that and keep the Northerns from interfering in the battle when they could have been of some usefulness.) Do the twelve gods have a self-destruction pact, too?

Soon did not keep the knowledge from the royal family, though. So there are those who do know more about the gates. I'm not sure where that would place Hinjo, though. (Except that he is far from the city.)

I'd love to see Redcloak and Xykon go to the Oracle, though!

As for a paladin defeating a cleric in mind games, that's no stranger than another fighter being more delectable than a wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html).

Anyhow, I still don't quite see what the issue is. There are two gates, why Girard's first? And having O'Chul was merely an unexpected surprise. (Though I guess Redcloak did not expect the complete death of the paladin group?)

Anyhow, I'm still wondering when, if ever, the twelve gods of the South will do something helpful.

[Porthos]

This is unacceptable! I can't figure out which Trope the Giant is hanging a lampshade on.

He's hanging a lampshade on Lampshade Hanging (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging). :smallwink:

Redcloak is calling out how ridiculous an idea it is, Plot Wise, that the Paladins would be willfully ignoring the other gates:


The lampshade effect (also, hanging a lampshade or hanging a lantern) is a technique used in many forms of fiction to deflect attention from implausible or just plain bad writing. If something unusual happens in a story, the audience tends to fixate on it, ruining their suspension of disbelief and enjoyment of the work. The solution is to "hang a lampshade" on it - have a character point out how strange or unlikely it is. Once acknowledged in-character, the audience accepts it.

At least that's how I read it. :smallsmile:

[RMS Oceanic]

There are two gates, why Girard's first?

Probably because it's closer or something. Remember Kraagor's gate is in the far north.

What I'd really like to happen now is for O-Chul to goad Redcloak. Maybe psycholanalyse him (Were you ever bullied at school?) Make some little speech about how evil is formed a lot through tragedy, like the loss of a mother, a father...a brother. At this stage, Redcloak would snap and fling Destruction at him, and O-Chul would smile as he deliberately fails his forrtitude save. Redcloak stares angrily at the mound of dust and one word springs to mind..."Damn."

[Ellen]

So, if Redcloak's right, O-Chul may know without knowing he knows. Either the right trigger suddenly activates the information in his head or he knows something he considers nonsense or unimportant that actually holds the key to everything (I guess that would be like Luke finding out about Vader because someone saw Vader's real name on his driver's license, thought it was a really dorky name, and passes it on to Luke without knowing his last name).

Which raises the following questions -

1) Will RC turn out to be right after all?

2) If he's right, will he get the information?

3) If he's wrong, how long before he notices?

4) If he's wrong or if he just doesn't get the information, what will he do instead?

[nosajtpno]

I think that the "graphical error" in the colors of the 4th panel is intentional. Compare the 3rd panel's colors to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

All the OTHER panels are the ones with odd colors, presumably because of the purple glow the rift is casting over everything.

[Oracle_Hunter]

He's hanging a lampshade on Lampshade Hanging (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging). :smallwink:

Redcloak is calling out how ridiculous an idea it is, Plot Wise, that the Paladins would be willfully ignoring the other gates

Citing The Other Wiki on Tropic matters? Heresy!

Still, I suppose The Giant could be hanging a lampshade on the short-sightedness of the Order... it does fit with the One True Wiki's view:


This can be a "Message from Fred," i.e., a message from the writer's subconscious that this plot element is, frankly, stupid. On the other hand, done well, it can be an entertaining piece of Fourth Wall breakage or momentary lack of Genre Blindness. It can also be used to take care of Fridge Logic. Meta Trope Intro compares it with many other ways that a trope can be used.

I admit the Giant has used it well here, but that would require you to accept Redcloak's logic at face value. I don't think the Sapphire Order's actions were "stupid" in the sense that they make no sense (nothing like, say, Wolverine in X3 deciding the only way to stop the Dark Phoenix was to use The Power of Love, when a mutant whose sole ability was nullifying other mutant powers via proximity was literally within throwing distance - but I digress).

You can see the links in the causality chain that ended up with Azure City being overrun by Xykon.

Soon feuds with his fellow Epic Partymembers over how to defend these Gates. As a compromise, all agree to defend their Gate as they see it best, with an impersonal surveying system in place to alert the guardians to a systemic danger
Soon defends his Gate by the "unbreakable honor" of an Order of paladins devoted to this purpose. As a foundational matter, he enforces the Oath he sword (because he's LG)
Lord Shojo (CG) takes over, and notices a systemic threat to the Gates. Impatient with the generally inflexible nature of the LG paladins, he recruits outsiders to investigate
Left unaware of the systemic threat, the Order continues business as usual, leaving themselves vulnerable to a sneak attack by Xykon
Shojo's direct undermining of the foundation of the Sapphire Order results in a near-schism which weakens the leadership corps of the Order and, in the end, allows its misguided sense of duty to render the situation FURBAR'd.


I don't see any weakness in these links, aside from the inherent weakness one finds in inflexible power structures - they often fail to adapt and can result in informal power structures that undermine the strengths of the organization. That Soon inflexibly followed his Oath whereas Dorukan was not so strict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) is of no surprise when viewed holistically, though without the excellent background material the Giant has made available, it may seen like a case of Fridge Logic.

Now, undermining the rampant Genre Savvy behavior in OotS via a Lampshade Hang on Redcloak? That just seems much more sophisticated and keeping in line with Redcloak's preceding statement - with the fallacy that O-Chul reveals.

[hajo]

I don't get what the magic 8-ball, or the fortune-cookies are for.
Perhaps they hope that one of those fortune-cookies contains the anwser ?

[BisectedBrioche]

Was the title a reference to Occam's razor ("entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity" or "The simplest solution is the best") or Hanlon's razor ("Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.")? :smallconfused:

[Tundar]

Redcloak is beginning to sound more and more like a player char.
Always suspecting the worst (and then some) and making simple matters very complicated.

[EBass]

Redcloak is my favorite character in OOTS, even more so since I read Start of Darkness.

I've always had difficulty accepting the premise that Redcloak is "evil". I mean sure I have no qualms about his alignment WITHIN the parameters that D&D sets as being Lawful Evil (though I think D&Ds take on alignment is faintly ridiculous, as I feel does rich as he lampoons it fairly frequently)

Then again I have a different defenition of "Evil" to many people. To me someone is only "evil" if they know what they are doing is wrong but they do it anyway. For example I am undecided on whether Hitler was truly "evil". Did he commit Evil acts? Certainly. Did he commit them BELIEVING they were wrong? I am not sure.

It seems to me that the Giant recently has been pushing hard to try to truly define some characters alignment. Belkar without Roy restraining him has been acting the true psychopath I personally always knew he was. Xykon's ruthlessly sadistic side has been shown more recently.

With these last two comics I am starting to believe Redcloak is "evil" (though I am not fully convinced yet). It's not so much his methods, which if used to achive a goal he believes good (and I think he has a case, if his motivations as disclosed in SoD are true.). It's the fact that he seems to ENJOY them.

I think its quite plausible O'Chul knows something, even if he doesen't know it himself. Shojo obviously took the responsibilities handed down to him by his father very seriously. As far as I can see however it is inferred that he is the ONLY person in Azure city to know anything about the other gates and their status, thus it stands to reason that if he was to die without imparting this knowledge onto someone else the secret would be totally lost. I can't believe Shojo would take this risk, particularly as for at least some of his reign he knew a sudden death was possible due to assasins.

I don't know who he would pass this information on to, but we know he had access to people who could use powerful magic. (for example the mark of justice) We know (again from SoD) that magic can enlighten people intellectually to events not known to them before (see Redcloak as he dons the crimson mantle). Because of this I find it if not likely then at least plausible that he implanted said information on the games into someones head so the secret would not die. Shojo stated that he had worried about Miko's sanity before so she is not a likely candidate, aside from Hinjo O'Chul seems the next likely candidate.

[Renegade Paladin]

Masterfully done, Mr. Burlew. I must commend you. :smallamused:

[Holammer]

Is that a... Xvart?

They're supposed to be shorter than Goblin and taller than Kobold, might just be. It was my first thought anyway. But a psionist Xvart? I always imagined them dumber than a box of rocks.

(edit) As other suggested, it's a Blue Goblin, even found Rich's model for the art. It must be :D
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20020826a

[saral]

Suppose that O-chul is right. Then the secret to the next gate would be linked to the honour of a paladin. Any non-fallen paladin would not be able to reveal stuff.

[AtomicKitKat]

Regarding the colour change in Panel 3, I think it's a factor of the lighting. Notice that O-Chul looks more washed out in the main panels relative to the third panel as well. Something about the Snarl's light maybe?

[Groundhog]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the Snarl giving off the light. Although why an inherently evil entity would give off light I'm not sure. If I hadn't seen it, I would assume that it would be something dark, or even something that absorbed light.

[Trazoi]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the Snarl giving off the light. Although why an inherently evil entity would give off light I'm not sure. If I hadn't seen it, I would assume that it would be something dark, or even something that absorbed light.
I see the Snarl as more pure, primal chaos rather than anywhere on the good/evil scale; it doesn't seem to have the sentience to be moral or immoral.

[Bendal]

Like Redcloak said, he doesn't expect physical torture to work, but hey, he wrote it on his schedule in ink, so that's what is going to happen next.

IOW, this pointless line of questioning has now become an amusement for Redcloak rather than an attempt at getting information from O'Chuul that he doesn't have. If Zone of Truth and Detect Lies, etc, reveal that he's telling the truth, then there's nothing left but to accept that he does not know where the next gate is.

However, I wonder if there is a physical map of the other gates somewhere, or something written entrusted only to a select few and hidden in the city. Perhaps O'Chuul knows where THAT is located, but since he never saw or read it, he can honestly say that he does not know where the gate is and Redcloak is just not asking the right questions...

[EvilJames]

Is that a... Xvart?

Pretty sure that's a blue goblin. A type of mutant goblin that can use psionics. I don't think Xvarts were ever updated to 3rd ed (they only made one appearance in 2nd that I know of) And considering how they thinned the ranks of goblinoids (kicking out the orcs and kobolds) I doubt any of the lesser known varieties will be brought into 3rd or the new edition.

[maxon]

oooo Redcloack burned by O-Chul.

[warmachine]

Redcloak is a man after my own heart. When faced with better reasoning, he acknowledges his mistake, even if grudgingly. Better yet, he doesn't let something petty like people's right not to be utterly destroyed by a god killing abomination or just not be splattered on the ground stop his pursuit of knowledge. I look forward to the large expenditure of resources (aka people) in the quest to understand the nature of the cosmos.

[shylocxs]

O-Chul vs. Redcload... who said that RPG doesn't involve more than hack and slash?!?! Especially when one has to be sneaky and involve just one more obscure sourcebook!

[Illiterate Scribe]

Haha, more evidence that Rich does read the forums, despite his assurances. It's not certain, but we do make an awful lot of references to lampshade hanging from TVtropes wiki.

[TheDarkDM]

What I find weird about Redcloak's inability to get around O-Chul's stubbornness is that, as well as having an apparently high intelligence, he's also a divine caster, which means his wisdom is probably the highest of any of the main characters (except for maybe Durkon:smallconfused: ) Since this is the case, he should have enough "common sense" to see O-Chul is useless, and let Xykon kill him, cast Speak With Dead, ans get some answers. While these may be intentionally vague, Team Evil has enough high level spellcasters to get eough answers to get some sort of picture.

As to Redcloak's emergent Evil tendencies, I think it's a natural side effect of us seeing him bored for the first time. And the best way for an Evil character to amuse themselves is causing needless suffering.:smallamused:

[MeTheGameGuy]

Brilliant.
Hobgoblin: "Supreme Leader, I have the lampshade you requested."
:redcloak: "Just hang it anywhere".
O-chul: :smallconfused:
:smallamused:

Also, three comics IN A ROW? :smallbiggrin:

[Sammich]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

:smalltongue:

[Yendor]

I think Redcloak is hanging the lampshade on an epileptic tree (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees), given the propensity of this forum to generate insane theories.

[LBO]

Is the Giant a closet troper, then? Don't worry, it happens to the best of us :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Xvarts have a 3.5 update in dragon magazine, but yes, its the "Blue" thats psionic and in the Expanded Psionics handbook.

Generally, if you think it is a lie you are telling, it should detect as a lie, even if by coincidence it corresponds with the truth. Or, a false statement truly believed to be true, should detect as true. If redcloak wanted equality, believed the Dark one did, and was wrong, the question: "Does Dark One want equality?" answer: "yes" should detect as true. Thats the way it works with sci-fi lie detectors (and, I suspect, real-world lie detectors)

I'm not sure if thats the way it works in D&D. If a single sentence contains multiple statements, one of which is false, the statement as a whole should detect as false. If multiple sentences, it should go False- true - true, for example, depending on which.
One the other hand, if it detects actual falsity rather than belief in falsity, it might not matter what O-Chul thinks he knows, if what he thinks he knows is wrong.

[pendell]

The lampshade was FUNNY.

Interesting .. in some ways Redcloak is the mirror image of Miko Miyazaki. Both have a blinkered, fanatical view of the world, and neither is willing to let facts intrude into it. Both fit facts into their pre-constructed narrative and no one is willing to ever, ever admit that they could be wrong.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pjackson]

Since this is the case, he should have enough "common sense" to see O-Chul is useless, and let Xykon kill him, cast Speak With Dead, ans get some answers.

Eh? O'Chul's corpse could not give any answers he could not give when living.


As to Redcloak's emergent Evil tendencies, I think it's a natural side effect of us seeing him bored for the first time.

Redcloak's evil has been obvious for a long time.
What more evidence could you want than his laugh in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html

[rosebud]

For example I am undecided on whether Hitler was truly "evil". Did he commit Evil acts? Certainly. Did he commit them BELIEVING they were wrong? I am not sure.Hey, the thread is only at four pages. Don't try to end it so soon (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/). (And the answer is yes. Constructions you create still yield the same result: his empire, country, and self were destroyed. It is true, however, that evil acts can result in good and that not every act of an evil person is evil.) More interesting is Napoleon, who led to lots of killing, but he's a complicated one to evaluate. Same too for Ghengis Khan, who wiped out a substantial portion of the world's population and impregnated a sizable portion of the part he didn't. (Something like 0.5% of the world's men has his Y chromosome (http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/8/214236/6651).)


It seems to me that the Giant recently has been pushing hard to try to truly define some characters alignment. Belkar without Roy restraining him has been acting the true psychopath I personally always knew he was. Xykon's ruthlessly sadistic side has been shown more recently.I don't see much change in Belkar or Xykon, actually. The gnome was an obvious setup and got paid for his day of work on the set. Xykon is just trying new game formats, which is within reason for the bored.


With these last two comics I am starting to believe Redcloak is "evil" (though I am not fully convinced yet).This is the one point where I feel like I'm seeing someone out of character. Now, it is presumably the case that he was lying about leaving all the hobgoblins and not caring if they got overthrown. His epiphany over globlindom would seem to make that unlikely.


I think its quite plausible O'Chul knows something, even if he doesen't know it himself. Shojo obviously took the responsibilities handed down to him by his father very seriously. As far as I can see however it is inferred that he is the ONLY person in Azure city to know anything about the other gates and their status, thus it stands to reason that if he was to die without imparting this knowledge onto someone else the secret would be totally lost.Given that he willing told Roy and company about the gates, I doubt it was that hidden. Hinjo could very well know in a manner that permitte Shojo to do so without violating the oath that bound Hinjo. (Of course, it could always be the cat.) I personally don't find it particularly interesting to get to the gate and have it be a cakewalk, so I don't care to see any info discovered anyhow.

[Moriarty]

go redcloak! don't let his logic defeat your stubbornness! throw in that group!

[Faramir]

Actually, RC is too smart for his own good, he's overthinking the whole thing,

Proving once again that he's the Roy of Team Evil.

[Eric]

The lampshade is being hung because it is a very silly idea that the original paladin would ever agree to any such vow, much less commit such a large force to the same vow.

No, it's quite sensible.

The entire point of the vow is to ensure that ALL paladins from the Saphire Guard would come to the defense of the gate if it was threatened. An oath, moreover, that would bind them for eternity if needs be.

That's some serious oathing mojo.

And having the oath mean the very pragmatic view of "in order to preserve all life, we must be able to say 'I kid' about the oath or 'I had my fingers crossed'" would severely limit its ability to tear the veil between life and afterlife, giving the normally ineffective spirits real power in the mortal realm.

[Eric]

in some ways Redcloak is the mirror image of Miko Miyazaki.
Brian P.

No, in all ways.

He's (as they say) lost the plot.

He started off thinking that all that was needed was a balancing of the scales, but the losses he's endured (and the losses he's made himself a part of) has now become an obsession. He's no longer thinking about WHY he's doing this, he's now only thinking of HOW to get it done.

Miko went the same way. She forgot that paladinhood was about protection of the good people (WHY) and concentrated on HOW she was empowered to do so. She could detect evil, therefore anyone she thought was evil WAS evil. And ANY action she felt should be taken was Right and Proper.

She lost the plot.

Maybe V's four words will be to Redcloak and will cause him to realise how he lost the way.

[jmucchiello]

Actually, O'Chuul blundered. If he convinces RC that he knows nothing, why won't RC just kill him (or let Xykon do it)?

[sealemon]

And once again this comic has not only made me type out "lol", but actually..umm...lol.

Just hang the lampshade anywhere, indeed. Good job.

So, having only read core, I assume that Incarnums suck really, really bad then?

[Estelindis]

Actually, O'Chuul blundered. If he convinces RC that he knows nothing, why won't RC just kill him (or let Xykon do it)?
Much as I love O-Chul, I'm inclined to agree.

If Redcloak has no reason to keep him alive, he's going to start using the time that he used to spend interrogating O-Chul looking into other methods of finding information about the gates, and possibly hurting other people.

But who's to say?

On the other hand, it might be that he will just kill O-Chul and set out on some kind of exploratory mission... I honestly don't know.

However, I do get the feeling that the fate of the poor commoners in the tower may now yield some additional info. O-Chul has tried pretty much everything he can: he's lied and he's told the truth. Unless he offers to take the place of one of them - which I doubt Redcloak would allow, as we all know that O-Chul is rather hard even when tied up - he's out of options.

Also, just as a slight side-point: how are people still misspelling O-Chul's name when it's now in the comic title in the side-bar of every GitP web-page? :smallconfused:

[Milandros]

Was the title a reference to Occam's razor ("entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity" or "The simplest solution is the best") or Hanlon's razor ("Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.")? :smallconfused:


It's Occam's Razor (it's not always the best way of making a decision, but it's a fine way to cut through overthinking logic). We're seeing two versions of it -

Redcloak - Either we assume that an entire order of paladins were formed without this knowledge, and that they decided to never pass it on, and that they decided that they would accept the risks to the other gates despite the danger, and that they never tried to acquire such knowledge, or that you have an ability to conceal it. The second option requires fewer outrageous assumptions, so I assume that it is the truth.

O-Chul - Either you assume that I have a concealment method so powerful that it can resist your clerical magic, arcane magic, torture, the threats to innocents, the power of psionics and everything else you have tried, or you assume that I don't know. Guess which one requires fewer outrageous assumptions?

How to choose between them? You could try using Occam's razor...

[Remirach]

those final four panels just never get any less funny... I keep giggling just thinking about them. That image where Redcloak tries to spit out an irate retort and can only come up with the angry ellipses...

...come to think of it, "angry ellipses" is a good band name.

It's funny that O-Chul and Redcloak, who usually BOTH play "the straight man" to a zanier boss, are such a funny combo when paired up together, but I sure hope we see more of them because this stuff is gold.

[Lycanthromancer]

So, having only read core, I assume that Incarnums suck really, really bad then?Incarnum characters SEEM underpowered at first glance, but their abilities stack in -seemingly- unanticipated ways which make them quite powerful (but not nearly as powerful as actual casters). I'm pretty sure they were designed this way, though. The system is both simple and subtle, but incredibly deep nonetheless.

They don't exactly do divination or telepathy in ANY useful context here, though. They're rather like barbarians in this regard.

In case you hadn't guessed, I quite like incarnum. :smallsmile:

[Shatteredtower]

I think it's time the tropes site adopted a warning found at the beginning of Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary, which reads (not an exact quote):

"The author and editor apologize for the ammunition this book offers to bad writers."

The Giant isn't one of those writers and I find it extremely unlikely that that site gave him the idea for the lampshade gag. I'm sure it's a concept he's been aware of for decades. Nevertheless, it's now open season on the tropes wiki. Hugo help us all.

[lord_khaine]

Actually, O'Chuul blundered. If he convinces RC that he knows nothing, why won't RC just kill him (or let Xykon do it)?

thats hardly a blunder, with his chances of his escape allmost nonexistant death would for a start mean redcloak could no longer torture him.

[Scrobotz]

Been a reader of Oots for a while (since comic 400 or so) and have been meaning to create a forum account for a while. This comic finally got me to do to it.

What can I say: ITS A BLUE!

Blues are my absolute favorite weird D&D weird sub-race. Something about a blue goblin thats also psionic, I don't know, they're just awesome.

I say blue is the new green.

[Wreckingrocc]

That makes like 3 jokesless issues :smallfrown:

I haven't been this dissapointed since the time Belkar stopped being funny.:smallfrown:

[ArmorArmadillo]

Incarnum characters SEEM underpowered at first glance, but their abilities stack in -seemingly- unanticipated ways which make them quite powerful (but not nearly as powerful as actual casters). I'm pretty sure they were designed this way, though. The system is both simple and subtle, but incredibly deep nonetheless.

They don't exactly do divination or telepathy in ANY useful context here, though. They're rather like barbarians in this regard.

In case you hadn't guessed, I quite like incarnum. :smallsmile:

I also like Incarnum, but this joke did hit like a ton of bricks. The problem with incarnum is ultimately that it was balanced to average classes like fighters and rangers, whereas stuff like psionics or ToB are balanced to high power stuff like Wizards and Clerics that are much better.

As a result, if you play Incarnum in a game with mostly beginners, its very balanced. However, if someone knows how to power-game to any reasonable extent, straight incarnum falls way behind.

That said, Incarnum can be maximized as well, but it involves the addition of other, non-Incarnum stuff.


Suffice to say, joke was a very funny comment for me in an otherwise slow series of issues.


No, in all ways.

He's (as they say) lost the plot.

He started off thinking that all that was needed was a balancing of the scales, but the losses he's endured (and the losses he's made himself a part of) has now become an obsession. He's no longer thinking about WHY he's doing this, he's now only thinking of HOW to get it done.

Miko went the same way. She forgot that paladinhood was about protection of the good people (WHY) and concentrated on HOW she was empowered to do so. She could detect evil, therefore anyone she thought was evil WAS evil. And ANY action she felt should be taken was Right and Proper.

She lost the plot.

Maybe V's four words will be to Redcloak and will cause him to realise how he lost the way.

Redcloak is evil; maybe not in the Xykon or Belkar cackling sociopath way but definitely in the 'ends justify the means' kind of Tool-ish way.

SoD Spoiler:
Xykon basically calls RC out on the issue, telling him that his outrageous following of The Plan despite all circumstances is really just him trying to justify all he's done up till now.

The more he follows the plan, the more goblinkind suffers. The more goblinkind suffers, the more he follows the plan to ensure that they didn't 'die in vain.'

A five-year-old could tell that anything with Xykon at the head isn't going to end in peace and happiness, and Redcloak's willingness to ignore that fact is a form of evil. He could have destroyed Xykon long ago, (when Xykon was regenerating, he could have easily destroyed the phylactery) but he hasn't.

[dish]

One of you editors on TVtropes seems to have already decided that Redcloak is lampshade hanging lampshade hanging (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging). Is this supposed to mean that he's highlighting the existence of such a trope, or his use of such a trope?

Well, it makes more sense than lampshade hanging fridge logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) - since nobody seems to have been upset by the Sapphire Guard's logic before. And it makes more sense than lampshade hanging genre savviness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) - since Redcloak (and all the rest) has been suspiciously genre savvy for a long time. And there aren't any epileptic trees (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees) around at the moment (are there? None that I've noticed anyway.)

But still, you know...maybe Redcloak just needed a lampshade?

[nybbler]

Maybe O-chul told the absolute truth. As long as we're doing tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SarcasticConfession

[Roderick_BR]

Redcloak is the coolest and better contructed villain thus far (Xykon seems a bit too simple sometimes), but O-Chul owned him! :smallbiggrin:
Even if Redcloak does break/kill/defeats O-Chul sooner or later, he can't make O-Chul lose his awesome points :smallamused:

[Kilarny]

Woot! Keep 'em coming, Mr. Burlew!
I have an unending appetite for OOTS. :smallsmile:

[Jammeez]

...the lampshade confused me, but not anyone else. Sigh...

No worries, Dogmac. I didn't get it at first, either. But I followed the helpful links others have left, and reread the comic. It's the one-liner "Do you honestly expect me to believe such a ridiculous story?" that the lampshade is for.

Now, about the change in Redcloak's colors...what change? :confused: Everything looks good and pink-tinged to me.

[rosebud]

So, if Redcloak's right, O-Chul may know without knowing he knows.And this would be useful for the order how? That fails Okham's Razor, too.


Was the title a reference to Occam's razor (... "The simplest solution is the best") or Hanlon's razor ...?Yes.


That makes like 3 jokesless issuesHuh? There's over a dozen in the past three strips, with this one containing about half. Not like a strip requires a joke. It is a story, after all.


I haven't been this dissapointed since the time Belkar stopped being funny.Huh?


Actually, O'Chuul blundered. If he convinces RC that he knows nothing, why won't RC just kill him (or let Xykon do it)?Keeping Redcloak around the city helps, how? I guess it means they are not advancing in their goal. But given his apparent lie (which could happen to be the truth, whether or not he knows it), it's not like he's particularly good or useful on the information giving and believing side.


Redcloak is evil ... anything with Xykon at the head isn't going to end in peace and happiness, and Redcloak's willingness to ignore that fact is a form of evil.I have to agree on that point. He does not like what the paladins did and he is following his god's wishes, but he has become what he hated.

[Jammeez]

Fixed now.

Oh. :tongue:

I guess the lampshade could refer to the whole strip.

example:
Princess Leia: No! Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons, you can't possibly...
Governor Tarkin: [impatiently] You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?
Princess Leia: ...Dantooine. They're on Dantooine.
Governor Tarkin: There. You see, Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. Continue with the operation; you may fire when ready.
Princess Leia: WHAT?

[The Wanderer]

Actually, O'Chuul blundered. If he convinces RC that he knows nothing, why won't RC just kill him (or let Xykon do it)?

First, Recloak flat out said that he intends to kill O-Chul regardless.

Second, O-Chul is a paladin, and likely a samurai as well. Even without the immunity to fear that Azure City paladins are said to have, do you really think he's afraid for a second of dying?


Maybe O-chul told the absolute truth. As long as we're doing tropes:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...sticConfession

He admitted that he lied. All he was doing was lying. For O-Chul to have been telling the truth he would have had to stand up to every torture visited on him for the past 4 months, including multiple attempts to read his mind, only to spill the beans now. If he knew anything, one of the spells or mindreadings would have gotten it out of him.

[Yendor]

And there aren't any epileptic trees (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpilepticTrees) around at the moment (are there? None that I've noticed anyway.)

No? O-chul's explanation that Redcloak disbelieves? Or Redcloak's own theory? Or the ones being planted by people deciding what trope's being lampshaded?

[Swooper]

This eightball? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) (not that I understand how it'd help in the situation).

[the_tick_rules]

redcloak overthinks stuff.

[fractal]

So, I guess we see why Shojo apparently picked O-Chul as his executive officer. Physical skill, ingenious tactics, and now a capacity for logic and debate. Clearly his Strength, Constitution, Intellligence, and Wisdom are all quite solid. Too bad about his Charisma.

[Oracle_Hunter]

This eightball? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) (not that I understand how it'd help in the situation).

No, no - this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_8-Ball).

[Keldaria]

... sooo if he can block magic that can tell if he's lieing and can stick to his lie threw torture and other nasty stuff.. how is the worst liar ever, .. common redcloak, he's ether a good enough liar that he can lie like that about his cover story (in which case he would have been capable enough to lie about how the gate is defended) Or he's the worst liar ever proving that he truely knows nothing about the gate.. common redcloak think.. then throw him and the 8 people into the void to see if O-Chul survives long enough to utter anything interesting... oh and throw the control group off too or else you won't be able to tell whats useable /nod.

[David Argall]

Redcloak does have a point. The oath was a stupid idea, largely put in place for lack of a better plan and maintained only because of paladin inflexibility.

Still, he should know better. He does have the diary, which should cover the subject at length. It was her idea after all.

[spectralphoenix]

The important thing is that from a cost-benefit standpoint (and with the information he has available to him,) Redcloak is making the right choice. If there IS some sort of bizarre alternate class feature or something at work here and torture will get it out, Redcloak benefits immensely. If there isn't, he's tortured a Paladin of the Sapphire guard and killed a handful of Azurites for nothing, which he's probably enjoying anyway.

As the readers we know that O'chul really doesn't know anything and Redcloak's efforts are futile. But he doesn't, so he might as well take a longshot since he's got nothing to lose.

[SteveMB]

Redcloak does have a point. The oath was a stupid idea, largely put in place for lack of a better plan and maintained only because of paladin inflexibility.

Still, he should know better. He does have the diary, which should cover the subject at length. It was her idea after all.

Also, he should know from his experiences with Xykon that just because something is stupid doesn't mean that it won't happen.

[Doug Lampert]

And thus we have the problem with all interrogators/torturers: They must assume that their victim, for lack of a better word, knows more than they're saying. So they continue to torture him until they state the "truth". Unfortunately, they don't know the "truth" so no matter how many times they scream, "I don't know!" they won't be believed. Eventually they'll simply state what their interrogator wants them to say, and the interrogator "wins", even if the information is useless.

Very nicely done, Giant.Not all interrogation/torture suffers from this. That it's never effective is a myth propogated by those who prefer to believe that it's always a bad idea that only evil people would even consider when in fact it is merely most often a bad idea that only evil people would even consider.

(1) if you know 10 things and want to know 10 other things you ask your prisoner 20 questions mixing them up more or less at random. If he lies on any of the 10 where you KNOW the truth you tell him, "You are lying" and keep going. DON'T tell him how you know he's lying. If he finally tells you the truth on all those where you know you can figure he's probably given up and is telling the truth.

(2) if you have 2+ prisoners you separate them and keep going till they all match each other. (Doesn't work if they've previously agreed on a backup story to give in this circumstance, but nothing is perfect.)

(3) people in horrible pain have trouble keeping their story straight or making up consistent lies. You can claim to be doing (1) or (2) and just keep going till the victim comes up with a consistent story then go a bit further and see if he changes it.

Unfortunately for Redcloak. Even bluffing (1) requires that the prisoner at least THINKS you might actually know something, and Redcloak has TOLD O-Chul that he's totally ignorant. Similarly even bluffing (2) requires that the prisoner think you have other prisoners, and Redcloak has also TOLD O-Chul that he's their only source.

Broadly Redcloak is screwed as far as torture goes and knows it. But he's Evil so he'll do it anyway.

[Fingolfin]

My, my did he stick it to the guy with red cloack :smalltongue:

Eightball reference was hilarious :smallsmile:

[ArmorArmadillo]

Redcloak does have a point. The oath was a stupid idea, largely put in place for lack of a better plan and maintained only because of paladin inflexibility.

Still, he should know better. He does have the diary, which should cover the subject at length. It was her idea after all.

Was the oath a stupid idea?
Would the paladins be better off if O-Chul had been spying and actually had vital information to give to Redcloak right now?

This is one problem I tend to see wtih OOTS's "smart characters" (Roy, Redcloak, V) is that they make a decision about the logic behind something, and then declare everyone else unreasonable without actually verifying the effectiveness of their logic.

Frankly, the oath wasn't necessarily because it was the most effective way to guard the gate, it's because everyone in the original party agreed to it as a way to end in-fighting because nobody could agree exactly how best to guard the gates.

[Solara]

However, I do get the feeling that the fate of the poor commoners in the tower may now yield some additional info. O-Chul has tried pretty much everything he can: he's lied and he's told the truth. Unless he offers to take the place of one of them - which I doubt Redcloak would allow, as we all know that O-Chul is rather hard even when tied up - he's out of options.


Ooh, now that just caused me to go into an interesting bit of speculation...

Redcloak has a slim hope that one of the humans might shout something important about the Snarl before being consumed...O'Chul on the other hand could promise to give his best effort and volunteer to be thrown in alone to spare the others. At the very least Redcloak knows by now that he's a tough bastard and has a better chance of surviving long enough to shout something useful than eight puny, terrified slaves.

...of course like most of my ideas I'm pretty sure this won't ever happen, (and frankly hope it won't because the MitD isn't the only one that wants O'Chul to escape and live happily ever after, no matter how unlikely it's looking), but it would certainly be quite paladin-y and self-sacrificing.

[The Wanderer]

Was the oath a stupid idea?
Would the paladins be better off if O-Chul had been spying and actually had vital information to give to Redcloak right now?

No, but the world would be in a much better state, if, say, an army of paladins had been able to strike at Xykon during the six months or so he was camped outside Dorukan's Dungeon while Dorukan simultaneously launched an assualt and crushed him between them.

Or if the different guardians of the Gates had been able to communicate with each other, assess the threats, and hunt down Xykon and Redcloak in all those years it took them to find a second Gate after Lirian's was destroyed.

Something like that could be handy. :smallwink:

[Winter_Wolf]

Yay, O-chul! Way to stick it to the (green) man! I nearly spit up my tea on the keyboard at the last couple panels.

[Roderick_BR]

Redcloak does have a point. The oath was a stupid idea, largely put in place for lack of a better plan and maintained only because of paladin inflexibility.

Still, he should know better. He does have the diary, which should cover the subject at length. It was her idea after all.
Technically, from the inflexibility of a whole group of adventurers, including at least 2 wizards, that disagreed between themselves.

[Vanguard]

No.. not the lampshade... anything but the lampshade!!!
RUN!!! THE LAMP SHADE!

[Callista]

I don't think it was a stupid idea at that point. Apparently the party's dissonance was so great that the oath was the only real way to get them working "together" to protect those gates. That it lasted as long as it did IS a stupid idea, though. There should have been provisions made for meetings in a few years, or in time of peril (like, y'know, a gate getting blown up).

Whoever said O-Chul will probably volunteer to get thrown off the tower is right; but they'd both know he'd make the offer just on the principle of the thing--Redcloak has to refuse because he'd lose O-Chul, especially since it'd be for nothing: O-Chul would once again be lying when he said he'd give useful information about the Snarl.

[TheEmerged]

I just want to chime in with the "SQUEEE! A Blue!" chorus. My character in the 3.0 "monster" campaign I took to 18th level was a kobold psion subrace developed as a one-off of the blues.

Psion geekery? Apparently there's a low psionic-magic transparency, since O-Chul apparently hoped the psion would be able to bypass magical protection. Psions are apparently rare enough that they had to research it.

[Vanguard]

Hang a lampshade on it. Heh, classic.


Uhhhhhhhhh....:smalleek:

[Roderick_BR]

No, no - this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_8-Ball).
That's awesome! I never knew that the Magic-8-Ball had a d20 inside it :smallbiggrin:

[ArmorArmadillo]

No, but the world would be in a much better state, if, say, an army of paladins had been able to strike at Xykon during the six months or so he was camped outside Dorukan's Dungeon while Dorukan simultaneously launched an assualt and crushed him between them.

Or if the different guardians of the Gates had been able to communicate with each other, assess the threats, and hunt down Xykon and Redcloak in all those years it took them to find a second Gate after Lirian's was destroyed.

Something like that could be handy. :smallwink:

Very handy. Again, the oath wasn't about efficiency, it was because they all didn't want to work together.

Once the oath is in place, however, the paladin's can't break it without losing all their class features.

A problem for them. Ultimately though, it reveals a problem with Redcloak: he expects everyone to think like him, and that everyone who doesn't must either be stupid or lying. He doesn't take into account that paladins might think differently than evil clerics.

Yep, he's smart.

[EvilJames]

Xvarts have a 3.5 update in dragon magazine, but yes, its the "Blue" thats psionic and in the Expanded Psionics handbook.



Thanks I actually just saw that article this afternoon (one more goblinoid updated and booted from the gobliond ranks, same for the scro in the same issue but they were closest to orcs and since orcs are no longer goblinoids then I guess it makes sense. They did get a significant power boost out of the deal though)