Redcloak and the Innocents: Atrocity or mercy?

[pendell]

As we've all seen, Redcloak is preparing to throw a batch of human slaves into the snarl, Irrevocably destroying them forever.

Now while that is a bad thing for most of them ... what about the LE/NE/CE in the group, if any?

See, the afterlife *they* have to look forward to ... in the Nine Hells, or the Abyss, etc. aint' exactly a picnic. It's an eternity of being burned alive forever. Not to mention all the fun and games that the demons and devils will have with them. Perhaps a few of them will graduate from lemures to type whatever demons (those rules still apply in 3.5, right?) but for the vast majority of such beings their afterlives are looking pretty damn bleak.

Burning ALIVE. For all eternity.

Were I such a slave, I would *volunteer* to be thrown into the snarl, preferring nonexistence -- nothingness -- to an eternity in the Nine Hells.

Am I wrong? Is Redcloak the greatest villain ever because he deprives people not just of their lives, but of their afterlives as well, no matter how unpleasant? Or is the Snarl an LE/NE/CE character's best hope?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Moriarty]

if someone is that afraid of the nine hells, he wouldnt be CE anyway. or at least he would try to become neutral

why should they want to die? of course dying in the snarl may be more easyer in the long run, i would still prefer not to die at all

[Felixaar]

I can't even comprehend non existence. Whenever I try to think about not existing, my mind just comes right back around to "so what would I be thinking" and I realise I wouldn't be thinking. With the fact that one could not perceive non existence, it's impossible to know what it would be like. But, I think that existing in eternal pain would be more desirable than no existence at all, because their would always be the hope you could escape. You could be rezzed, redeemed, whatever - even it was a false hope, there'd be hope.

Should mention that, presumably, there were very few decidedly evil citizens in Azure City, and those that were, managed to survive the battle and were made into slaves, have probably joined Team Evil.

[pendell]

Should mention that, presumably, there were very few decidedly evil citizens in Azure City, and those that were, managed to survive the battle and were made into slaves, have probably joined Team Evil.


Would they? I mean, yeah, Xykon is always hiring for Team Evil, but I get the impression you'd need a couple class levels to get his attention. And you'd still need to get into *see* him.. Color me suspicious, but based on the speciesist statements RC has made I think hobgoblin HR is going to give any human a devil of a time actually getting to the interview stage. If you're a commoner or low-level expert, I expect you go straight to slavery, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. I get the impression that being Evil is no guarantee of a job with Team Evil.

They really need the affirmative action lawyers sicced on 'em :). Where are the lawyers when you need 'em?

Re: Not dying at all. Well, that rules out lichdom and most forms of un-deadness. So I guess the only option there, D&D wise, is to ascend to godhood. I think it *can* be done (happened in the Forgotten Realms), but I imagine their hiring people are even tougher than Xykon's. It's a real good ol'boy club, from all I've heard.
Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Moriarty]

Re: Not dying at all. Well, that rules out lichdom and most forms of un-deadness. So I guess the only option there, D&D wise, is to ascend to godhood. I think it *can* be done (happened in the Forgotten Realms), but I imagine their hiring people are even tougher than Xykon's. It's a real good ol'boy club, from all I've heard.
Respectfully,

Brian P.



i didn't mean live for all eternity

just surviving this, and trying to become neutral afterwards.

this whole afterlife thingie is kinda strange to me anyway :/

i mean in our world, you can be evil, when you don't believe in hell and all that stuff. but in d&d, wen its obvious an afterlife exists (you can see them, interact with gods, etc) how can you consider having fun in life being more important than suffering to eternity in nine hells?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

@ Moriarty:
I've run evil characters who thought they were good before. It's actually really interesting when you can start to understand where they're coming from, and maybe even empathize with them. then they die because the village cleric cast Detect Evil. :smallmad:

Also, back at the OP, I would much prefer Hell to non-existence. I've spent a lot of time wrestling with this issue, but IMHO I would much rather continue to exist, no matter how bad that existence is, than just cease. Just a real-world 2 cp.

[Querzis]

i mean in our world, you can be evil, when you don't believe in hell and all that stuff. but in d&d, wen its obvious an afterlife exists (you can see them, interact with gods, etc) how can you consider having fun in life being more important than suffering to eternity in nine hells?

Because most of the people dont think about the consequence of their actions much and lots of religious people who believe in Hell in the real world were evil anyway, it never stopped anyone (though most of the time, they dont think they are evil). Beside, its not an eternity of suffering, in the abyss its more like about a century of suffering and then, if you are strong enough, you gain lots of power, get some fun with succubus and then you go kill people on the mortal plane.

Anyway, either way Redcloak actions are definitly not mercy. Not only because not a single one of those guys are actually likely to be evil but mainly because either way, its quite obvious Redcloak only want to end their existance for his own amusement. Hell, hes even throwing a freaking control group down the tower.

By the way, I do think you dont exist after death and I dont believe in any afterlife, I dont see whats so bad about it. I never dream so sleeping is like eight hours of nothing to me but it doesnt bother me. I see death as a long sleep after a tiresome life, nothing scary about that.

If we are talking about the actual hell, well, from what I read in the bible I would definitly prefer non-existance but D&D hell isnt as scary. You can easely become quite powerfull and have some fun in D&D hell.

[Moriarty]

I never dream so sleeping is like eight hours of nothing to me but it doesnt bother me.

yes you do. you dream nearly everytime, when you sleep longer than... lets say 3h. you just forget before you wake up ;)

[Demented]

I can't even comprehend non existence. Whenever I try to think about not existing, my mind just comes right back around to "so what would I be thinking" and I realise I wouldn't be thinking. With the fact that one could not perceive non existence, it's impossible to know what it would be like.

Been there, done that, became Chaotic Evil.

After all, when you stare into the abyss, will you not wonder why you restricted yourself to only one third of the alignment table? :smallwink:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My hatred of non-existence is tied into some real-world concepts that I can't really bring up because of the stifling no politics/religion rules, so lets just put this back on-topic.

[Querzis]

yes you do. you dream nearly everytime, when you sleep longer than... lets say 3h. you just forget before you wake up ;)

I honestly dont see how it change anything. Nothingness or remembering nothing sounds the same to me. Though lots of people told me that but I never found someone who could actually prove it. Scientist just proved that we all had a phase after 3 hours of sleep where people usually have dream, I know that. But I never heard anyone give me evidence that they proved everyone dream though and I dont see how they could if you can really 'forget your dreams' anyway.

Not saying your wrong just that how the hell did they proved that when they can have no actual evidence his brain activity his because hes dreaming or just because hes in the phase were people usually dream. Sounds like it would more be a theory then an actual fact. How can you know someone is dreaming when you cant even know what a guy that dont dream look like (since everyone is supposed to dream with that theory).

Anyway, this is kinda off-topic.

[Yuki Akuma]

I honestly dont see how it change anything. Nothingness or remembering nothing sounds the same to me. Though lots of people told me that but I never found someone who could actually prove it. Scientist just proved that we all had a phase after 3 hours of sleep where people usually have dream, I know that. But I never heard anyone give me evidence that they proved everyone dream though and I dont see how they could if you can really 'forget your dreams' anyway.

Dreams are the result of random neurons in your brain firing while your brain sorts out all the information it received during its period of wakefulness, which stimulate the parts of your brain centered around sensation. (When you imagine things, you stimulate those parts of your brain, too.)

Now, as it's asleep, your brain isn't really feeling these things, so it doesn't bother to file them. So you forget them. But it always happens, because your brain always goes through that filing process when you sleep. If it didn't, your long-term memory would be awful.

Your brain is a computer. This is part of its routine backup operations. This is not a metaphor. This is literal.

[pendell]

i mean in our world, you can be evil, when you don't believe in hell and all that stuff. but in d&d, wen its obvious an afterlife exists (you can see them, interact with gods, etc) how can you consider having fun in life being more important than suffering to eternity in nine hells?


Hmmm... *can* D&D characters do that? I mean, adventurers and high-level clerics can interact with extraplanar beings but I'll wager that for your average commoner the afterlife is still a folktale, something he's told about but never directly experienced.

And we all know how stubborn people can be when their pleasures are involved. I mean, IRL we know and have been teaching how dangerous smoking is for decades and yet the business shows no signs of drying up.

Your question seems to be based on the assumption that 1) Humans are rational 2) Always act in their best interest 3) Clearly understand what that is, rather than fabricating a self-serving rationalization. I dunno about D&D, but I've seen enough IRL to seriously question all three of those assumptions.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Estelindis]

Atrocity.

Even if your assumptions about oblivion being preferable to the lower plans is correct (and, for reasons I've already expressed elsewhere, I think it's not), do you think he took a survey of the captives by alignment? :smallconfused:

[Starbuck_II]

I honestly dont see how it change anything. Nothingness or remembering nothing sounds the same to me. Though lots of people told me that but I never found someone who could actually prove it. Scientist just proved that we all had a phase after 3 hours of sleep where people usually have dream, I know that. But I never heard anyone give me evidence that they proved everyone dream though and I dont see how they could if you can really 'forget your dreams' anyway.

Not saying your wrong just that how the hell did they proved that when they can have no actual evidence his brain activity his because hes dreaming or just because hes in the phase were people usually dream. Sounds like it would more be a theory then an actual fact. How can you know someone is dreaming when you cant even know what a guy that dont dream look like (since everyone is supposed to dream with that theory).

Anyway, this is kinda off-topic.

I've seen my dog have puppy dreams where he acts exactly like he is chasing a rabbit. So I know he dreams.

Now, where everyone dreams, I don't kniow. Not all my dogs had puppy dreams that were auditory/visual so they might have dreamed silently.

[T-O-E]

In christian religion, Hell is the ultimate form of punishment.
This is not true in DnD. Most after-lives are (apparently) catered to suit their deceased populace.

None of the after-live's are punishment. If a chaotic evil man fakes himself into Lawful Good, then he will most likely be bored out of his skull by the endless holiness and order.

[hamishspence]

Fiendish Codex 2 makes it clear Nine hells = erasing of all personality and individuality. By very painful process.

Its the only plane explicitly tied to punishment, with a very strong theme of the devils actually being given this job by the lawful deities. Of course, they twisted it to suit their own ends, but the original principle still applies.

In 4th ed, its a place of confinement for the devils as well, they were put there as punishment for the murder of a deity.

All the upper planes, Mechanus, and maybe Limbo and the Outlands might fit term better. But the lower planes are not in fact pleasant even for souls who go there after death. Thats the general theme, at least. There may be promotion, but that does not mean the souls like it down there.

Hoiwever the destruction is souls is citied in Vile Darkness as exceptionally bad, out of the question for good characters. and archfiends eat souls, according to Vile Darkness. So, to a D&D character, the destruction of their soul would be worse than its torment.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

As we've all seen, Redcloak is preparing to throw a batch of human slaves into the snarl, Irrevocably destroying them forever.

Now while that is a bad thing for most of them ... what about the LE/NE/CE in the group, if any?

That reminds me of two quotes.

Papal Legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, to Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, commander of the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathar heresy, 1209:
"Kill them all, let God sort them out.

Green Goblin to Spiderman, Spiderman, 2002:
This is why only fools are heroes… because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice. Let die the woman you love... or suffer the little children. Make your choice, Spider Man, and see how a hero is rewarded.

[FujinAkari]

You seem to be confusing the nine hells with the Christian Hell. The Nine Hells are a paradise for evil people, not a punishment.

[Milandros]

You seem to be confusing the nine hells with the Christian Hell. The Nine Hells are a paradise for evil people, not a punishment.

Do you have a source for this? The Fiendish Codex 2 doesn't imply that at all.

[Migodnar]

Everytime I think about what would happen if when people die they simply cease to exist I feel a little ill, so I think it would be preferable to live in the "eternal" pain then to cease to exist.

[bluish_wolf]

Look, if you really want your soul to be destroyed, I'm sure there are plenty of devils/demons in the Netherwold that would gladly eat your soul for you. That would essentially be the same thing.

[pendell]

Are you sure?

I can't access the SRD right now ... but Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lemure) seems to imply that lemures (what people become in the Hells) are more valuable as slave labor or conscript troops than as food.

Forgotten Realms Wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lemure) agrees ...



molten stinking flesh, lemures are the shock troops and laborers of the devils. The most selfish, cruel, and evil mortals that die and come to Hell become lemures. Their soft bodies regenerate quickly, making them convenient victims of torture for the devils. A lemure is about as tough as a typical human zombie. The only things lower in the devilish hierarchy than lemures are nupperibos, which are strange gangly-limbed bloated creatures with no minds or eyes.




Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sethis]

According to the Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, when souls enter Hell they materialize on the Shelves of Dispond, shards of rock floating down the River Styx in Avernus, the first layer of Hell. Traditionally, souls after death on the outer plains are called "petitioners". Devils call these souls "coin". Souls are the basis of Hell's economy. These souls are still partially physical bodies. They can feel pain, and retain any wounds that caused their deaths. Most of the Lawful Evil souls were touched in some way by Devils (from direct conversion, to indirect, to living in a society that worships/worshipped/was created by devils) These souls have a mark signifying which Lord of hell they belong to and are carted off.

At that point they are tortured through methods which completely strip away all individuality, reason, and conscious thought.

This process basically destroys all the recognizably "mortal" parts of the soul, and like splitting an atom this releases energy which is then channeled to the respective Lord of that layer of hell.

Then the bloated and maimed bodies are dumped in a special pit where they die and come back as lemures. Incapable of conscious thought, they still instinctively know that they can now advance as devils if only they distinguish themselves.

Some of the more powerful souls might make a deal to skip the lemure stage, but the mind-breaking torture is pretty much universal. Thank Asmodeus for this deal. What a Magnificent Bastard that one is.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Atrocity; whatever way you look at it is just sick.

Further, let us say they are all evil-aligned. He is permanently denying them the chance to redeem themselves.

[Sethis]

Further, let us say they are all evil-aligned. He is permanently denying them the chance to redeem themselves.

Technically, he'd do the same thing if he just killed them outright. Can't redeem yourself once you die, you're already on your way to your afterlife. And nothing you do then can change your fate (As Eugene shows).

[Spiky]

Is an Atrocity so unexpected from Team Evil?

[Jayngfet]

evil high priest, dark god, potentially unmake creation, again

[Ellen]

When I read the title, I thought it was going to be discussion about how Redcloak still hasn't actually thrown anyone in after ordering it twice.

Of course, it may only take the first blurb in 547 to show that he has done it, which would make the whole point moot.

On the theology stuff, I'm not up on D&D afterlifes, so couldn't say.

On what happens in the brain during sleep -

OK, we know that people who don't remember dreams still have the same brain activities we know happen when people who do remember dreams are dreaming.

We also know that people who normally don't remember dreams can learn to recall them.

Also, there are other mental states during sleep where you aren't remembering but where brain activity related to some kind of rational ability is still going on. For example, sleepwalkers are not dreaming when they sleepwalk but they can walk around obstacles put in their way. Also, people who talk in their sleep are not normally found to be in a dreaming state when they do it.

So, technically, none of us have ever experienced pure oblivion. I'm not sure whether or not that impacts our ability to properly imagine oblivion or not. I mean, if you equate it to a state that actually isn't oblivion, to what extent is your perception flawed by brain activity that happened and is vital to your mental and physical health just because you don't consciously remember it? I mean, who would think sensory deprivation, on the face of it, would be unbearable? Sounds like a good way to take a nap, but that's not what I've read about it suggests.

Now, as to the purpose of dreaming, it is theorized that this is the brain's way of downloading and organizing. However, that's a theory - a perfectly reasonable one and the best one I remember hearing, but (as far as I know [and it would be just my luck to have totally missed this being proven]) it's still just a very reasonable theory.

Science, especially medical science, is full of very reasonable theories, though, that crashed and burned.

Oh, and experiments on depriving animals of dreaming sleep (I think it was dreaming sleep. It involved letting a mouse sleep on a thing balanced in water that would overturn and dump the mouse in the water if it didn't keep it balanced - something it could do in certain sleep states but not others that require a mental state where you no longer pay attention to what your body is doing) can result in psycho animals (I think it ends with dead animals, but I'm not sure on that part). Sleep deprivation in humans has been used as a form of torture and can have some pretty grim effects, too.

And, speaking of dreams and science, am I the only person who can get nightmares from science magazines?

[Estelindis]

Well, it's all academic now. :smallsmile: As of #547, it seems even Redcloak regards it as an atrocity that he's unwilling to commit. :smallwink:

[Khanderas]

Everytime I think about what would happen if when people die they simply cease to exist I feel a little ill, so I think it would be preferable to live in the "eternal" pain then to cease to exist.
I did not exist before I was born and that wasn't unbearable. Just nothing after death, to me, sounds vastly preferable to eternal or nearly eternal pain.

Heck, just a nights sleep is basically 8 hours of nonsentince (dreams don't count since they are generally not remembered), but we are used to it so we are not scared of falling asleep.

[Remirach]

Well, it's all academic now. :smallsmile: As of #547, it seems even Redcloak regards it as an atrocity that he's unwilling to commit. :smallwink:

Amen!! Seriously, I'm surprised this was up for debate... truly, it was an awful thing to contemplate.

[Eric]

if someone is that afraid of the nine hells, he wouldnt be CE anyway. or at least he would try to become neutral

Everyone wants to go to heaven, it's just that nobody wants to do the work to get there.

*E classes get to do all the things that give gratification NOW. Power NOW. Respect (or at least subservience) NOW. Satiation of needs NOW.

However, hell is made up of creatures that either want to punish you for squandering the precious single life or by creatures who did the same as you but have been there longer and gotten much more powerful. Either of which will whup your ass for kicks.

To get to heaven, you need to forsake the gratification of self in order to see to the welfare of others. And when you die, you get to mix with people who felt the same way and so will NOT ask you to squeal like a piggy... But your life has been a trial of denying the short term goals.

[Tempest Fennac]

If I'm honest, I'd sooner not exist at all rather then end up in any of the Evil afterlives due to how I'd sooner not feel anything rather then be in contant pain (especially when you consider how hard it is to get any sort of rank in the Evil afterlives).