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perpetualnoise
2008-04-08, 12:47 AM
Hey, and thanks in advance for the help

The group im a part of is doing a gestalted campaign and i was looking for a little advice, i am interested in doing either something with druids or clerics (what about both as this is a gestalt?) and since i usually play rogues, im not to familiar with them. As such, i've also read on here about Cleric and Druid"zilla" and im not sure of what those are. we are at lvl 9.

in terms of available sources, we can use anything, any books, races, inherited templates, ect ect ect. it is an evil campaign, non chaotic, non good, but everything else is gravy.
(i know... extremely powerful, but the dm is hopeing an increased rareity of magic items will offset this)

also, this is my first post, so... hi.

Zincorium
2008-04-08, 12:57 AM
Hallo yourself, and welcome to the forums. Alright, general advice with gestalt:

Pick a primary role, and then pick a different but complementary role, that gets less attention in terms of feats and equipment and doesn't have any major drawbacks. In parallel to this, try and pick one class that gives a strong set of active powers (things that take actions to do) and another that's mostly passive.


If you want to be a divine caster, but are used to playing rogues, a druid/ninja (alternately, scout) would be really cool, ninja is generally considered weak but it synergizes well with the much more powerful druid. If you're going pure combat, see if you can get swordsage from the Tome of Battle (book of nine swords) approved, it's both good and a lot of fun to use. It doesn't fill the rogue slot in the party, whereas scout, ninja, and rogue would. You've got the option to be disabling traps or unleashing even more melee fury.

C[leric] O[r] D[ruid]-zilla refers to slightly different things. The first, cleric, involves buffing yourself until you outshine the fighter, and with a few tricks you can buff once and have them up all day. With druids, it's really straightforward- have your pet maim things, take natural spell after you get wildshape, and be a dire bear that calls down lightning when not ripping things to pieces.

The advantage is that technically they can be considered both active and passive, they have incredibly good buffs and support spells, but can also tear it up in melee. There are almost no bad combinations as long as you can have a high wisdom and decent constitution.

Squash Monster
2008-04-08, 01:44 AM
Go ahead and do the Cleric//Druid gestalt. There's nothing wrong with being CaDzilla.

I'll explain how to be each, and then how to mix them decently.

Clericzilla is the simpler one. You have access to really awesome buff spells, and there's a lovely feat called Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine) which lets you apply metamagic using Turn Undead attempts instead of level adjustments. Generally, this is used to get Quicken Spell or Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane) on your best buffs so you can cast them without wasting a turn buffing. With Quicken your favorite buff goes up as a swift action, and with Persist you just cast it at the start of the day. Persist is generally more popular, although I actually think Quicken is a better choice most of the time. You're going to take Persist though, because of a nifty trick with one of your Druid spells.

To get your hands on DMM:Persist you're going to need Extend Spell (the prerequisite to Persist), the DMM:Persist feat itself, and a lot of turning attempts. Very handily, picking Undeath and Planning as your two Cleric domains gets two of those out of your way for free. Now you just need a feat. If either of those don't fit what you had in mind, don't sweat it; just pick up the feats the conventional way. If you don't need the extra feats this is a good idea: you can get badass domains like Travel, Trickery, Magic, or Time.

Your primary Persistent spell is Divine Power, as it is an awesome buff that has no drawbacks. Your other most awesome buff is Righteous Might, which is only a good idea to persist if you know you'll spend the day away from small corridors. Those are your ass-kicking buffs, but you'll also want some defensive ones. The important ones are Freedom of Movement and Death Ward. These protect you from two of the worst things other casters can do to you.

If people think your job as a Cleric is to heal them, tell them it'll cost them 750gp. Use that money to buy a wand of cure light wounds, and heal them out of battle. You have better things to do in battle, like stopping people from needing healing in the first place.


Druid is more complicated. The most important new thing is that you have Wild Shape, which lets you turn into terrifying scary things. You can and should stay shaped all day, by using the feat Natural Spell, which lets you cast while shaped. For actual shapes, just pick out a good fighter, grappler, tool user, and flyer. Trying to keep track of more than that is a headache. At level 9, my picks would be Cave Triceratops (Miniature's Handbook) for basic fighting (charge, trample while moving away, repeat), Polar Bear for grappling, Desmodu Guard Bat (Monster Manual II) for flying, and, unfortunately, there are no good tool users at this level. A tool user is a form that can use weapons, so you can drop yours, transform, then pick it back up and club something to death. Legendary Ape (Monster Manual II), available at 13th level, is the quintessential one of these.

Next up, you have your buffs. Druid has some really crazy buff spells; my favorites are Shillelagh and Animal Growth. The former of those is a bit out of date at this level, but Animal Growth is basically a multi-target Righteous Might that only effects animals. So let's get some animals.

You have spontaneous casting of Summon Nature's Ally, which lets you get a small horde of critters. These are pretty good, but they are largely a medium via which you deliver Animal Growth. You also have your animal companion, who'll generally love a good Animal Growth. A quick list of summons 5-Rhinoceros, 4-Brown bear, 3-Dire wolf, 2-Crocodile. These are all good choices for that option to do d3 of something from the previous level, as well.

For your animal companion, there really are two choices. Either you take a Fleshraker (Monster Manual III) and cast Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms) on it, or you take a Riding Dog. Personally I prefer the Riding Dog, as it doesn't feel quite so cheestastic. Your choice though - Fleshraker does insane gobs of damage while the dog has uber tripping.

Finally, you have some really awesome battlefield control spells. I would take a good look at Entangle, Spike Stones, and Wall of Thorns. All of these will make your enemies move slowly. If you make sure some of your enemies have more of this to slog through than others, then you've effectively made it so you only have to fight one of them at a time. There's also so lovely spells in Frostburn and Sandstorm, like Frostburn's utterly devastating Blizzard.


Now, to combine them.

This is very simple. Persist your favorite buff, wildshape into something scary, and destroy everything in your path.

I'd recommend taking Combat Reflexes so you can attack things primarily through attacks of opportunity, since that frees up your actions for casting.

Also invest in getting that second daily persist. Druids have two spells of note for this: Mass Lesser Vigor and Greater Vigor. Persisted, the former of these heals everybody in the party 1hp per round all day. The later, on the other hand, only heals you, but 4hp per round all day.

I think my personal favorite combo here is Righteous Might + Cave Triceratops. Divine Power is a better fit for the bear, since it'll be making full attacks. In a few levels you'll get a proper tool-user form via Legendary Ape. This one is great, since you can wield a reach weapon, cast all your buffs, and go to town.

Enjoy.

Talic
2008-04-08, 02:00 AM
My personal favorite for a druid blend is Druid // Fighter/Barbarian 1(lion totem). If you wanna go wacky with this, make it a nymph with Gravetouched Ghoul (libris mortis), for a host of nasty Cha based abilities, including paralyze, stun, blind, and disease.

Bonus feats allow for some pretty nasty abilities. If you are less of a gish, try a Nymph Druid // Sorceror.

By level 20, you'll cast at level 20 druid (wild shape at 13), cast at level 14 sorceror (caster level 18 with practiced spellcaster).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-08, 02:09 AM
The Druid Handbook. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400)

perpetualnoise
2008-04-08, 02:23 AM
Thanks a bunch for the advice so far! Ohhh i cant wait to piss off the main fighter... a mounted half ogre cavalier that just got the death knight template... i know i wont do as much damage... but still, other ways to have fun lol, thanks again

Cuddly
2008-04-08, 02:24 AM
You know, if you rode your animal companion....

Also, if you ever think about using a weapon, check out the spell spikes (or brambles?). It's level 3, gives +2 enhancement bonus to hit, +1damage/level (up to +10), and doubles the threat range. Can only cast it on a wooden weapon.

Not that big a deal if you use ironwood to make it. A lance with +10 damage? Your fighter buddy will be loving it.

Talic
2008-04-08, 02:28 AM
Another fun one.

Were tiger. fighter/warshaper.

Shift to tiger form. Gain Pounce. Check.

Enlarge person (yes, in tiger form, you are still a humanoid).

In Soviet Russia, cavalier rides YOU.

Your animal companion can flank.

Squash Monster
2008-04-08, 02:33 AM
Thanks a bunch for the advice so far! Ohhh i cant wait to piss off the main fighter... a mounted half ogre cavalier that just got the death knight template... i know i wont do as much damage... but still, other ways to have fun lol, thanks againOffer him a piggy back ride. Then cast Righteous Might and Wild Shape into that Cave Triceratops form. Nothing is quite as hilarious as outperforming the fighter while being his mount.

perpetualnoise
2008-04-08, 05:28 AM
Offer him a piggy back ride. Then cast Righteous Might and Wild Shape into that Cave Triceratops form. Nothing is quite as hilarious as outperforming the fighter while being his mount.

absolutely great! thanks a bunch

Grynning
2008-04-08, 10:26 AM
What this boils down to:

1. Put druid on one side of a Gestalt

2. ????

3. PROFIT!!!


(sorry, I couldn't help myself)

Crazy Scot
2008-04-09, 04:55 AM
As Talic suggested, you could always go with a Druid//Sorcerer, but I would change this a little. What I am about to suggest is more of a melee/buff character with some minor offensive spell capability. I would go strait Druid on one side, and then take 4 levels of Sorcerer on the other side, then PrC into Geomancer (so level 9 would be Druid 9//Sorcerer 4/Geomancer 5). This would give you the spellcasting capabilities of a 9th level Druid AND a 9th level Sorcerer with some great abilities. The Geomancer PrC is nice as it lets you focus most of your spellcasting on one stat instead of two. It also gives you some very nice physical abilities to go with it allowing you to become a great natural weapon fighter (as any Druid should be), but without the need of as many buff spells. Throw in some good defensive arcnane spells (like Greater Mage Armor and Shield) and you are well on your way to doing whatever you want. I would also recommend having a couple good offensive spells for your Sorcerer class to blast with, allowing you to focus most of your Druid spells on buffing.

Feat choices: Persistent spell will eventually be nice but you won't be able to cast that high of spells yet (but keep it in the back of your head for later). Extend spell helps in the mean time. I would also pick up a good reserve feat (choose any one) that would allow you to focus even more of your spells on buffing/defense instead of offense. Intuitive Attack, this allows you to add your Wisdom modifier to your attack rolls instead of your Strength modifier. And Natural Spell, if you want to do any Wildshaping this is a must.

Races: I would recommend two, but you are welcome to choose others.
First would be a Kobold (go with the Dragonwrought feat, and if your DM allows flaws, take any two and get Dragon Tail and Dragon Wings as well). This is a fun race that was meant to make it look underpowered and overlooked. Just wait until you unleash hell and then stand back and watch the confused looks on everyone's faces. For an interesting twist, ask your DM if he would allow you to take the Feral template from Savage Species, this would give you a boost to Wisdom, a ding to Int (you aren't really using it), and would counter your physical stat modifiers for being a Kobold, as well as some other fun abilities for melee fighting.
Second would be a Warforged or Warforged Scout. Yes, I know they take hits to both Wisdom and Charisma, but the ability to run all day long, and the all the other immunities and abilities that go with it are very helpful.

Magic Item: if you go with this class combination (especially if you go with the Warforged) get your hands on the magic item (I forget the name of it, someone please help) that makes it so you only have to sleep two hours per night to get the full effects of 8 hours of sleep. This is a must for any arcane caster.

As a last note, if you are willing to sacrifice your Wildshaping abilities (since you can use polymorph if you want to), and your armor proficiencies (which you can more than make up for with Greater Mage Armor and other buffs), there is an alternate class feature to consider. In exchange for these two things, you get the bonuses a monk gets to his AC (the AC bonus and you add your Wis mod to AC), you get fast movement of a monk, favored enemies as a ranger, the Track feat, and the swift tracker ability like a ranger. The nice thing about this is that your Wisdom is now influencing two things for you (your AC and both of your spellcasting capabilities). If you use this ability with the Intuitive Attack feat, you would now have one ability score (Wis) affecting your AC, your attack rolls for melee and natural weapons, and your spellcasting capabilities for two casting classes. You can guess which stat I would recommend you focus your improvements on.

Enjoy!

leperkhaun
2008-04-09, 06:12 AM
If you go druid. Check out the Bite of [insert animal] spell line. THey are in the spell compendium.

They add Str, Nat armor, claw and bite attacks (if you arnt wild shape).

Talic
2008-04-09, 06:21 AM
Item is Ring of Sustenance. It does also note that spellcasters still need 8 hours of rest to prepare spells. (i.e., doesn't work for purposes of spell prep).

Epinephrine
2008-04-09, 06:47 AM
I'm currently playing a Druid/Scout in a gestalt campaign, and it's fun. And a trifle on the powerful side - but you'd want a decent point buy/attribute spread to make it work. We're using the Shapeshift variant for the druid.

Pros:
Spell casting
Good combat
Skirmish bonus AC works well with the Shapeshift forms
High movement rate of animal forms+scout movement makes movement easy
All saves are good
Druid area control spells (Entangle, for example) blend well with mobile hit-and-run
Lots of skill points (Scout has 8)

Cons:
Both classes use d8 HP, so you miss out on potentially better dice
Both classes use rogue attack progression, so you miss out on BAB
Both classes get woodland abilities

Spring Attacking predator form is nasty at low level, and the aerial form benefits well from "Bite of the" spells. Expeditious Dodge is a nice replacement for Dodge, since you can easily move 40+ in a round on your normal move (predator form starts at 50' movement, and you can add a scout bonus by 3rd level to bring it to 60', while ignoring woodland terrain penalties by 2nd level druid; at higher levels you have +20' movement from the Scout, which results in a 70' predator form, 60' slayer form, 40' forest avenger form, and 50' elemental form - lots of movement). Improved Skirmish is a must. Aerial form has slow move, but Cloud Wings lasts an hour per level and is a 2nd level spell, so I use that to have a 70' flight speed, handy for doing aerial skirmishing - and Spring Attack can be used in the air. Hinder makes a nice Scout Feat, since you can use your mobility even better when you've slowed the enemy down, and my DM allows you to hinder movement rates you possess, so the aerial form can hinder even bigger flyers, reducing their move).

Talic
2008-04-09, 07:06 AM
Down side to hit and run. Entangle also gets you.

Epinephrine
2008-04-09, 04:00 PM
Down side to hit and run. Entangle also gets you.

Can be missile hit and run (within 30'), or as of 5th level you can use an aerial form (with "bite of the" buff), all depends on what you want to do.

I guess it's true that you can't skirmish (on foot) the ones still stuck in it, but those that come out are fair game.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 05:54 PM
If you want to play a gestalt druid, and want to keep it simple, I'd recommend straight druid on one side, with monk or ninja on the other. What you actually do in play will be basically the same as a standard druid, but the other side will give you nice passive bonuses that you don't need to spend actions on. Either will give you your Wisdom bonus (which should be huge, as a druid) and then some to your AC, Ninja will give you Sudden Strike (like Sneak Attack, but slightly weaker) and a couple extra skill points, and Monk will give you faster movement. Swordsage would also work (probably better than the other two), but it would add an extra level of bookkeeping, since you'd have to keep track of your maneuvers and stances as well as spells and wildshapes.

For skills, the big ones to get as a druid are Listen, Spot, or both, Concentration, Knowledge (Nature), and possibly Spellcraft. If you have the skill points to spare, and get access to them as class skills, I'd also recommend Hide and Move Silently.

For feats, the essential one is Natural Spell, and Power Attack is also very useful if you're going melee. Depending on your preferred form, Multiattack can also be good, but other than that, you have a lot of flexibility.

Crazy Scot
2008-04-10, 04:00 AM
Item is Ring of Sustenance. It does also note that spellcasters still need 8 hours of rest to prepare spells. (i.e., doesn't work for purposes of spell prep).

I took another look at it, and in the description of Ring of Sustenance in the DMG there is no reference to still needing 8 hours of rest to prepare spells. But when I reread the section on arcane spellcasting in the PHB, I found out what you were talking about.

In the PHB it says that to prepare spells, a wizard must have a clear mind. To clear her mind she must first sleep for 8 hours.

So I guess the key would be how to interpret the DMG reference to the Ring of Sustenance. It says that the ring refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. [emphasis mine]

If the ring refreshes the mind as well, and a wizard (or sorcerer) must have a clear mind to prepare spells, I am not sure why this wouldn't apply. It seems to say specifically that with this ring 2 hours sleep grants you the benefits of 8 hours sleep. If you need 8 hours sleep to prepare spells, than this ring should reduce it to 2. Maybe I am reading too much into this, though. What are your thoughts?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-10, 04:08 AM
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.There. That needs to be in a stickied thread or something. The item you want is Heward's Fortifying Bedroll. MIC. Once every 2 days, you only need 1 hour of sleep to prepare spells.

Crazy Scot
2008-04-10, 04:24 AM
Sstoopidtallkid, I understand what you are saying. The nice thing about the Heward's Fortifying Bedroll is that you only need 1 hour of rest, but you can only gain the benefits of one of these every other night (meaning 9 hrs needed for every 2 nights). I would still argue, though, that the ring would be better overall (only 4 hours needed for every 2 nights). The key words to remember are "to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep". This would suggest to me that you get the full benefits of sleeping for 8 hours *including refreshing your mind* in a 2 hour window. It is not saying you don't need to sleep. It is not saying that you only have to rest for 4 hours (like an elf). It says, "[the ring's] wearer need only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep." Again, as I read this, 2 hours of sleep with this ring should refresh your body and mind as if you had rested 8, thus allowing preparation of spells.

Nebo_
2008-04-10, 04:27 AM
Sstoopidtallkid, I understand what you are saying. The nice thing about the Heward's Fortifying Bedroll is that you only need 1 hour of rest, but you can only gain the benefits of one of these every other night (meaning 9 hrs needed for every 2 nights). I would still argue, though, that the ring would be better overall (only 4 hours needed for every 2 nights). The key words to remember are "to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep". This would suggest to me that you get the full benefits of sleeping for 8 hours *including refreshing your mind* in a 2 hour window. It is not saying you don't need to sleep. It is not saying that you only have to rest for 4 hours (like an elf). It says, "[the ring's] wearer need only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep." Again, as I read this, 2 hours of sleep with this ring should refresh your body and mind as if you had rested 8, thus allowing preparation of spells.

Even though every other item that does anything similar has the caveat that doesn't let you refresh spells? Trying to claim that for some reason this item is different is munchkinism.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-10, 04:30 AM
Besides, spells are granted not by eight hours of sleep, but by eight hours of restful calm.

Crazy Scot
2008-04-10, 04:42 AM
Well, I have made my arguement, and I still haven't seen an arguement convincing enough to change my mind on how to interpret it. I guess it is up to each DM to decide how to apply it to their campaigns.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-10, 04:42 AM
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.There is a distinction drawn between sleep and restful calm. Minor, but it's there.

Also, has anyone thought of the implications of this for narcoleptic Wizards?

Crazy Scot
2008-04-10, 04:58 AM
One last time (I promise it will be the last time):

With the ring you gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep which should include being able to regain spells. A normal warforged without this ring doesn't need to sleep, but would need 8 hours of restful calm to regain spells (yes, I agree). But the ring description specifically states (as you quoted Sstoopidtallkid) it refreshes the body and mind and grants you the benefits of 8 hours of sleep. If you need 8 hours of sleep to do something, and this lets 2 hours count as 8, then 2 hours should be enough in this situation, by my interpretation.

Again, this is open to different interpretations, but I think the best decision is to let each DM decide how they want to handle it in their campaigns.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-10, 05:10 AM
An elf meditating in this fashion gains the same benefit as a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
For example, an Elf wizard needs 8 hours to clear their mind, even though they only need 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies.
so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.If you for some reason don't need to sleep, you still need 8 hours of restful calm. The ring gives you 8 hours of sleep in 2, but you haven't yet gained 8 hours of restful calm. If you doubt me, compare the text of the ring to that of the elven class feature.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-10, 07:49 PM
There's one other thing you want to watch while Gestalting: your specifics.

By this I mean your BAB, your HD, and your Saves. Maybe tack on Skills, if you want.

Ideally, you should try to get all three 'good' saves, as high a HD die as possible, and a full BAB.

The 'CoDzilla' cleric build using a persisted Divine Power will easily substitute for a full BAB class, since it duplicates all the effects of full BAB, which makes Cleric really fun to use in a Gestalt. The fact that it has two good saves (Fort and Will) is another good reason to use it in Gestalt. Combo it with something that has high Reflex save and you're gold. Now, a Cleric has a D8 HD, and DP gives you an effective D10 HD with the bonus hit points it grants. That's not bad at all. It's skill points, on the other hand, stink on ice. Fortunately:

The Rogue is also a very good class to combo in a Gestalt build. It gets skill points and class abilities which are fun to use. It gets Reflex save, to cover the Cleric's one weak spot, then gives you Evasion on top of it at 2nd level. In short, it covers all the bases the Cleric doesn't, so Cleric//Rogue is a solid Gestalt build.

The Druid also gets both Fort and Will, and has a D8 HD. By 9th level, you'll be able to Wildshape into some fairly obnoxious things, so your medium BAB is offset by your wildshape's form stat bonuses. This also makes it a good class to combo with Rogue.

If you want to do damage, on the other hand... *evil chuckle*

Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Warshaper//Cleric

In short, you turn into a Dire Bear when you rage, giving you stupid stat bonuses. Go for Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. Screw Persist, you don't need it with Barbarian giving you full BAB and D12 HD. If you use Lion Totem Barbarian, you'll be able to make a full attack on a charge, for absolutely stupid amount of damage. For further damage increase, Quicken Righteous Might to stack bonuses on top of bear bonuses. Then just wade in and kill everything dead, doing about a hundred damage a swing on average. Oh yes, and you still get all the clerical awsometasticalness when not raging. All for the price of poor Reflex saves. Have a nice day.

Some may suggest Frenzied Berzerker (FB). DON'T! IT'S A TRAP!!! In short, you will eventually end up killing the whole party when you fail a check to keep from berzerking all over your allies. Besides, you don't need it. It's nice, sure, but not strictly necessary.