Why do people play with Druids as is?

[Breaw]

Intro of a minor rant on clerics: I mean, having a cleric become 'clericzilla' is a little sad, but is only really relevant when the player decides that they want to outshine the fighter. I mean, if they buff others and keep people up and ticking then no one is going to complain about anything. You could certainly take things away from Clerics, but 'balance' really isn't needed in D&D imo. At the end of the day, the cleric class allows for the player to be an egocentric smashing machine, but I don't think that that is actually the best use of his abilities, just the ones that make him shine the most...

Druids on the other hand... well everyone says the same thing really: Raging direbear spitting lightning. It's pretty obvious why druids are almost always totally ridiculous, they get their cake and they can eat it too. They can run around with fighter stats casting as a primary caster, it's like polymorph but even better (sort of). Anyway, my question is this:

Why don't people simply not play with the 'Natural Spell' feat? I mean, it seems cool and all, but the feat actually makes druids more 1 dimentional, since they can use their 3 strongest class abilities simultaneously. Think for a moment what a druid is without natural caster... It's still incredibly strong with near limitless possibilities, just not all at the same time. You may actually have to decide whether shifting out to cast a spell is worth it.

Anyway, I understand why people like it, it's really (really) strong. But at the end of the day, this is (generally) a cooperative game that is (generally) most enjoyed when everyone gets to contribute. Why play (or allow, as the DM) a setup that is going to be a super powerhouse without any real thought put in?

Really I feel the same way about polymorph. Everyone complains about how underpowered fighters are, and there is certainly a great deal of truth to that, but I'm not sure why people are then simultaneously talking about how wizards should always be running around in 30 AC and how druids (largely due to 1 feat) are pretty much unstoppable. Why play with a ruleset where some players will clearly outshine others to this degree? The natural spell deal in particular confuses me. At first anyone will be unhappy that something shiny is being taken away from them, but I'm sure most reasonable players will actually enjoy their druids more once they have to think a bit more about their resources.

Maybe I'm missing something, just figured I'd attempt to start up a conversation on the topic. Curious to see what the thoughts on wildshape/polymorph is...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Druids are breakable even without Natural Spell. The problem is, without it, they more-or-less might as well not even have one of their class features. I'd view making Natural Spell a +1 Metamagic a reasonable houserule, or just use the Shapeshift variant from PHB 2.

[tyckspoon]

? .. ah, you've not been here long. A lot of people don't play with the Druid as is. The reason why we discuss it as if people do is because anything else is assuming a houserule or variant is being applied, which is not something we can predict or control. This is especially true for Repeat Thread #3, Why Are Druids Considered So Strong?

There are plenty of threads that open with people asking what they should do with their druids with Natural Spell banned or with a variant class feature (like the PHB II version) in effect.

[Tempest Fennac]

Presuma lot of people take Natural Spell due to wanting to be as powerful as possible. I remember Chronicled saying a while back that he makes his players use Shapeshifter Druids with the Spontaneous Rejuvanation ability in stead of normal ones to counter Wild Shape (and Natural Spell) powered cheese while stopping Druids from spontaneously casting SNA spells (this vriant also lacks an animal companion). in regards to Polymorph and Wizards, the concensus seems to be that they are really powerful due to being as versatile as they are, so making them significantly less vurnerable pushes them to the point where they can be unstoppable.

[leperkhaun]

its only noncooperative iv you make your character much stronger than the others in the party.

in the games iv played a druid, the druid did not outshine everyone else, even with natural spell......but then my group tends to like to play at a higher powerlevel than most on the forums.

[Tempest Fennac]

Something that I find ironic is how a lot of people seem to critercise players how primarily play Clerics as healers/buffers rather then cheesing them out, which is amusing when other people claim they are overpowered due to how they can become so overpowered.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

We criticize them for playing as healers, not for Buffing. Healing in-combat is underpowered. Remember, it was balanced against the fighter. Buffing is fine.

[Grynning]

We've played several games with "as-is druids" where it hasn't been a problem, even in groups with a wide variety of "power" amongst the classes.
The thing is, debates on these forums generally exclude Rule 0 (because every DM is different, so debates have to generally stick to RAW so everyone's on the same page) and many of the threads are focused around min/maxing and optimization. (This is not a complaint, mind you, just a statement of fact.) On paper, Druids ARE an overpowered class, and even someone who's not trying to power game one can pwn face all over a CR appropriate encounter. In practice, I think good players use a bit of common sense and restrain themselves from going CoDzilla all over everything (except in dire circumstances) and good DMs house rule a bit to keep power-hungry players in check.
There are times when this fails though, and the broken-ness of divine casters shows. I still regret letting my best friend go Cleric/Druid in a short-lived gestalt game - encounters went something like: He buffed up, turned into a dire bear, then grappled and mauled everything to death. I mean EVERYTHING.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Druid may be high-powered, but it can be controlled with some common sense. A wild shaped druid overshadowing the fighter? Wild shape into something less strong/specialise in something other than straight damage-dealing (like grappling, becoming a flanking buddy etc) and give the fighter some room to shine. Deliberately choose underpowered feats like Shocking Fist (my favourite Warforged feat from PGtE; use limited to a warforged's natural slam attack) or
Short Bow proficiency (because... it's my favourite weapon) etc. Anything you, and more importantly, others with you, can have fun with.

p.s. Personally, I really enjoyed playing a moderately competent character with one or two overpowered characters in the party. It gives me room to do RP-ing and devise a memorable punchline etc.

p.s.2 Hmm, I think the postscript 1 sounds like I'm saying "Oooh, I don't powergame in MY game! You guys suck! Powergaming suck and RP-ing rulz!". No, I don't mean it and the purpose of this post was that you don't have to play a stronger-than-averate (a.k.a. overpowered) character to have fun.

[Kompera]

We criticize them for playing as healers, not for Buffing. Healing in-combat is underpowered. Remember, it was balanced against the fighter. Buffing is fine.
If the Priests are criticized for playing as healers, who heals the party during combat?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No one. It's better to kill the thing doing the damage than to restore the HP. At first level, you can spend a slot to heal 1d8+1 damage. Or you can attack the enemy and deal 1d8+2 damage. (making assumptions, but the general idea is sound) If you heal, the enemy probably deals the damage again next turn. If you attack, you maybe take the enemy out of the fight and prevent him from dealing damage again. Which is better for keeping your allies alive?

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean, but I think it largely depends on the situation: if you hit and kill an enemy, there's less need to heal during combat, but if you fail to kill them, your ally will still be low on health. Trying to kill all the enemies first could also backfire if there's a lot of them.

[Kompera]

I guess it kinda depends on the situation. I know that my Barbarian would have died in our last run if the Priest hadn't healed him. And that if the Priest had attacked instead of healing me he'd have done far less damage then I did in the following round. So by healing me the Priest contributed to better and faster damage output.

But we're 3rd level. Not yet at the level where Priests ascend.

[Tempest Fennac]

When you said about the Priest Ascending, are you on about a Cleric variant rather then something that normal Clerics can do?

[Kompera]

When you said about the Priest Ascending, are you on about a Cleric variant rather then something that normal Clerics can do?

I was referring somewhat tongue-in-cheek to the point at which optimized Priests ascend to godhood, i.e break the game by leaving behind any non-optimized characters and all melee types even if they are optimized.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I know I play with Druids as is because if I didn't there wouldn't be much reason to play them.

Sure regular Druids take no work to be powerful, but a gimped Druid (Shapeshift variant/no Natural Spell) can barely keep up with an optimized party in most circumstances. Some people actually play at high power levels instead of constantly complaining about how broken everything is. When your Wizard is casting Stinking Cloud and the Fighter is charging for 100 damage and Robilar's Karmic Striking the round after, being just a Dire Bear who can't cast spells is actually rather pathetic.

[mostlyharmful]

Bare in mind that the most important limiting factor for casters still applies to them, actions in combat. If you want to buff to the nines or summon a horde of gribblies and then grow them that takes up most of the encounter. If you want to wade in then you aren't casting and the druid has some goldmine battlefield control stuff in its arsenal.

Even with natural spell there's plenty of reason to change out of wildshape, to use items or interact with players and npcs normally, to fit into a tight space or use a spell that needs a material component that had been melded into you. It's only when you start throwing wildling clasps at everything (which is expensive in and of itself) and get the ability to talk in bear shape that they start losing their disadvantages.

Ok, druid as written is strong and can be played overpowering but how is that really different from the cleric? It benefits from some of the splatbooks to grow into a monster but again how is that different from the cleric? core divine full casters have almost all the tools for CoDzilla, certainly enough to own the poor little fighter but that depends on playstyle more than build.

[Kantolin]

A lot of people play with Druids with wild shape for the same reasons why a lot of clerics end up using divine power.

Because, especially in core, druid feat options suck.

I mean, when I was new to D&D and playing in a core game, I was sitting there at level 6 with a druid wondering what on earth to take, when oh look there's natural spell. I figured that'd do well with the toughness feat I took at level 1 because I wanted to be tough, and the power attack feat I took at level 3 because the fighter was doing nifty things with it.

I mean, if you're not attempting to break a druid but are unaware that druids are as strong as they are... there really isn't a lot of other options there.

For a similar comparison, most core 4th level spells either suck or are incredibly niche. I mean, there's air walk, which is... kind of neat. Death ward which tends to not do anything. Maybe tongues? Honestly, Spell Immunity is the only particularly /interesting/ 4th level spell... and then there's divine power, which seems neat.

Remember, most people who play CoDzilla aren't aware that they're being awesome until awhile of playing it occurs.

(If anything, that's part of why CoDzilla is usually stronger than a Wizard - you have to put a little effort into making a strong wizard, while you kind of accidentally play a Cleric or Druid).

[Starbuck_II]

For a similar comparison, most core 4th level spells either suck or are incredibly niche. I mean, there's air walk, which is... kind of neat. Death ward which tends to not do anything. Maybe tongues? Honestly, Spell Immunity is the only particularly /interesting/ 4th level spell... and then there's divine power, which seems neat.

Remember, most people who play CoDzilla aren't aware that they're being awesome until awhile of playing it occurs.

(If anything, that's part of why CoDzilla is usually stronger than a Wizard - you have to put a little effort into making a strong wizard, while you kind of accidentally play a Cleric or Druid).

Deathward is only weak if the DM never throws negative energy attacks at you. It isn't just death effects.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

use a spell that needs a material component that had been melded into you.

Actually, all your material components that are melded into you can be cast as if you were holding them. Particularly useful information for Druid/Wizard/Arcane Heirophants who can Wildshape into something and make all their mats completely invincible to sunder/ect.

[Kantolin]

Deathward is only weak if the DM never throws negative energy attacks at you. It isn't just death effects.

Oh, it /can/ come up. Pretty much all of them have the capability to come up, and if you know what you're going up against there may be great incentive to go for it in the morning. But unless you know it's going to be useful, Death watch is one of those things that's unlikely to be - it's not useful in very many situations.

For a bit of comparison, I was attempting to play a scholarly spellcasting-focused cleric and not a physical striker, and discovered just how generally unuseful several of these spells can be. Memorized freedom of movement to discover that you can't cast it when you yourself are grappled. >_>

[Worira]

Deliberately choose underpowered feats like Shocking Fist (my favourite Warforged feat from PGtE; use limited to a warforged's natural slam attack)



This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! Its burning grip tells me to defeat you! Take this! My love, my anger, and all of my sorrow! SHOCKING FIST!!! GO! GO! GO!!!

I love that feat.

[Kizara]

Oh, it /can/ come up. Pretty much all of them have the capability to come up, and if you know what you're going up against there may be great incentive to go for it in the morning. But unless you know it's going to be useful, Death watch is one of those things that's unlikely to be - it's not useful in very many situations.

For a bit of comparison, I was attempting to play a scholarly spellcasting-focused cleric and not a physical striker, and discovered just how generally unuseful several of these spells can be. Memorized freedom of movement to discover that you can't cast it when you yourself are grappled. >_>

To be fair, Freedom of Movement is probably one of the single most powerful spells in the game. Period. Not powerful-for-its-level, but power regardless.

Its not just Immunity to Grappling, its Immunity to any effect that could possibly impede you. Such as entangle, web, fog effects, chains and grappling. I dunno about you, but I find the knowledge that you are unstoppable to be greatly beneficial.

[Ascension]

This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! Its burning grip tells me to defeat you! Take this! My love, my anger, and all of my sorrow! SHOCKING FIST!!! GO! GO! GO!!!

I love that feat.

It's quotes like these that make me want to play a Warforged, and then to immediately realize, "Oh. I couldn't do that unless it was a joke campaign. Darn."

(I'm getting off-topic, but my last DM reflavored a warforged gish casting scorching ray as him firing a built-in laser weapon at us. :smallbiggrin: )

The only druid I've come into close contact with (Most of the folks around here don't seem to like playing them... I think it's the neutrality angle that puts them off. Lot of extremist characters around here...) had a +1 LA race, no animal companion (She was wildshaping when the party was at ECL 5 and she had an LA, so I'm guessing she traded it to get wildshape early. Or something.), and spent about 90% of her time grappling things as a puma. I believe I remember her casting two spells during the entirety of the campaign.

The cleric in the same campaign focused on Summon Monster, Magic Weapon, and unbuffed melee (although he usually flanked with his summoned Celestial Dire Fill-in-the-blanks). He was flavored as a wannabe paladin who wasn't quite able to make it, and settled on cleric instead. He also tried to be the party's (rather pushy) face (to my great chagrin, given that I had spent about half of my rogue's skill ranks in social skills in anticipation of serving as the face).

It was the wizard who made the rest of the party look not-so-useful most of the time.

[Kantolin]

If you ask me, freedom of movement is a bit irritating to have in the form of a spell. On the one hand, it's needlessly powerful in certain situations (When you know grappling is in your near future). On the other hand, even the multiple effects you mentioned tend to not come up all that frequently, much to my irritation - or possibly, they come up when you're not capable of dealing with it, such as when you've /already/ been grappled.

Now in the form of a ring, it's incredibly useful to a lot of people... and if you've got a decent idea that it's giong to be useful in a given situation it's great (to the point of near-unfairness), but it otherwise seems to be one of those spells which is... well... 'So, did it poison me? No? Dang. If it had I could've fixed it.'

[Behold_the_Void]

It was the wizard who made the rest of the party look not-so-useful most of the time.

Wizards do that. I believe they're considered more powerful than both Clerics and Druids.

[Patashu]

If you have to deliberately forego feats and abilites clearly and evidently available to you just so everyone else is on the same playing field as you are, is that really 'balanced'?

[Turcano]

Wizards do that. I believe they're considered more powerful than both Clerics and Druids.

True, but the crucial difference is that optimizing a wizard takes a lot of knowledge, much of which is very counterintuitive to beginners. (Meteor swarm is a case in point: the beginning wizard reads the spell description and sees "OMG 32d6 DAMAGE," but more experienced players realize that stoneskin and resist fire whittle that damage down to almost nothing even in the best of circumstances. Definitely a suboptimal choice for a 9th-level spell slot.)

Druids, on the other hand, seem to be optimized straight out of the box. As Kantolin points out, this is mainly due to the fact that Natural Spell, the key ingredient to the druid's brokenness, is the only core feat that says "Pick me! Pick me!" to a druid.

[chaos_redefined]

I prefer playing with Natural Spell while in a defensive form. And then throw around spells. Let the party fighter (or equivalent thereof) take care of the whole melee thing, that's their job. In the meantime, I'll do important things, like stop people from getting mauled. (Entangle, moon bolt, etc...)

[Kantolin]

To agree with Turcano, note how many wizards love fireball and power word kill. Most people who play clerics have 'backup fighter who can heal' in their minds - and it's divine power or bust.

Interestingly, the first time I played a batman-esque wizard was when I decided I wanted to try the novel idea of playing a half-orc wizard who didn't have any damaging spells, since that sounded cool albeit slightly sub-par. Upon which I learned haste is awesome.

Anyway, I suppose what I'm suggesting/agreeing is that most people who play with druids as is do so because most people aren't attempting to be powerful and just coincidentally do so. It takes until the bear sneezing lightning bolts is comparable to the fighter and then also a full caster that people realize "Hey... druids are really mean."

[Epinephrine]

I know I play with Druids as is because if I didn't there wouldn't be much reason to play them.

Obviously we play very differently. My Shapeshift druid easily pulls his weight. There are tons of reasons to play them - if the area control, long range, piles of utility spells and so on aren't enough, there's also the fun factor.