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View Full Version : How to make a Paladin Fall



kentma57
2008-04-08, 08:33 AM
I am currently in a party with the following characters; A LE bunny sorcerer, a CE sorcerer, two CN druids, a CN ranger and a LG Paladin. Well the LE and CE characters are switly working on converting the CN ones(and it is working) but my question is what can we do with that paladin(other than killing him), I kind of like the idea of a black guard....

Any suggestions?

ps: 1st- I can make him trip any time I want.

2nd- Don't worry I would never use this plan unless the player agrees OOC.

Sleet
2008-04-08, 08:38 AM
This is why character generation should be a cooperative activity with the whole group present. :smallfrown:

Torger
2008-04-08, 08:39 AM
#1, Why is a creature that is, really, nothing more than ambulatory hasenpfeffer a spellcaster?

#2, according to the RAW, by willingly associating with an evil creature and making no efforts to curb, curtail, or convert the heathens is against the Paladin code, and, as such, should strip him of his abilities.

#3, Why? Oh God, why?!?

Lochar
2008-04-08, 08:40 AM
Unless your GM has waived the 'cannot cavort with evil peoples' part of their code, all you have to do is get him to do a detect evil, stand in front of it, and if he stays with the group he falls.

Nebo_
2008-04-08, 08:41 AM
Kill hi... damnit. Nevermind.

kentma57
2008-04-08, 08:45 AM
Actualy there is a very good reason for are characters to work together(and he does not know we are evil).

ps: don't ask what the reason is the characters have only been together for a few days and the big plot has not been unveiled...

kentma57
2008-04-08, 08:47 AM
#1, Why is a creature that is, really, nothing more than ambulatory hasenpfeffer a spellcaster?

WHAT!?!?!?

Torger
2008-04-08, 08:57 AM
Why is a rabbit, which is, at best, a stew waiting to happen, and has a brain the size of a poppy seed, casting spells?

Fitz
2008-04-08, 08:58 AM
are you all carrying 1" lead sheets ??

and secondly why? that whole set up is bound to cause party friction (at least) unless you all planned it?

Fitz

SamTheCleric
2008-04-08, 09:02 AM
Grease usually works to make a paladin fall.

Rad
2008-04-08, 09:13 AM
Ok... I sense bad stuff here... Is the paladin player part of this thing and is this going to be a fun storyline for him as well? People should really make character concept creation together with the whole group present.

Making some person's paladin fall on purpose is generally MEAN. You don't do that to your friends :smallmad:

No it's definitely not funny. Not everything that one finds funny is funny for everybody else.

Otherwise well, be creative and talk to him. Remember that is is his character after all so he'll probably want to roleplay the crisis and generally be in control in how that happens. Maybe he let his hatred for evil take the better of him and slip into CN? Maybe he'll discover that evil lurks in his order (truthfully or otherwise) and lose faith? Tragedies are diverse.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-08, 09:17 AM
Use black leather. Give him an exotic prestidigitationed dish and say that's how evil tastes. Show him how evil laughs are good for you. And tell him he's gonna fall if he remains with you, so why not get the most out of the switch?

hewhosaysfish
2008-04-08, 09:18 AM
Ok... I sense bad stuff here... Is the paladin player part of this thing and is this going to be a fun storyline for him as well? People should really make character concept creation together with the whole group present.

QFT

I recall a story, possibly apocryphal, about a modern "campaign" where the players (only two of them) turned up with a air-headed bimbo model and a misogynistic serial killer.
The word "campaign" is in quotes because apparently it was short-lived. If you'll pardon the expression.

I can see the OPs game quickly going the same way. The players can only ignore the elephant in the room so long before it becomes a farce.

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-08, 09:22 AM
Why is a rabbit, which is, at best, a stew waiting to happen, and has a brain the size of a poppy seed, casting spells?

It was probably awakened. I've seen an awakened cat druid before, so why not? Just be glad it's not a vorpal bunny, 'cuz I doubt the Paladin has access to the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

Anyway, back on track, a Paladin shouldn't be able to fall against his will. Choices made under false pretenses or under duress will probably not be fall-worthy in the eyes of the DM. Thus, if the Pally doesn't want to fall, you're gonna have a hard time making it happen.

IC, be gradual about it. You might suggest he do something that fits with his code of conduct, even if it is a little morally questionable.

OOC, straight-out ask him. "Hey, wanna be a blackguard?"

Anteros
2008-04-08, 09:33 AM
This is probably going to go one of two ways. Either you're playing a well developed evil character, who doesn't kill babies for fun, and the Paladin has a good reason to be with you.

Or you're playing the "lulz evil is fun! Stab!" type and generally, the type of player who rolls up a Paladin is not going to enjoy this.

If it's the first one, it's an excellent role playing opportunity, if it's the second, prepare to have a lot of group tension.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-08, 11:30 AM
Question: You guys want to force the paladin of another player to fall, or you all, as a group, want to find believable ways to make him fall?

If it's the first, I advice against it. No one likes to have concepts forced on the character they choose to play.

If it's the 2nd, I suggest making a violent paladin, that slowly stops to believe in the code, and deals brutal punishment to those he sees as criminals. A classic but still interesting take on lose of paladinhood.

EvilElitest
2008-04-08, 04:47 PM
#2, according to the RAW, by willingly associating with an evil creature and making no efforts to curb, curtail, or convert the heathens is against the Paladin code, and, as such, should strip him of his abilities.

Actually, minor nitpick, but paladins can work with evil people, as long as the evil people commit no evil acts (So the paladin would have to try to stop them).

While i don't think this is a very good idea, here is my recommendation.

Have him kill an evil person without giving him a chance to surrender, like in his sleep or something. Say it is for a good cause. If he isn't that bright, you can make up some mumbo jumbo about his abilty to suppress divine abilities. Maybe make his loss of powers come off as a curse and have him become an unwitting blackguard
from
EE

Severus
2008-04-08, 06:37 PM
This is why character generation should be a cooperative activity with the whole group present. :smallfrown:

What he said.

Why in the world would these people have anything to do with each other?

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-08, 06:43 PM
Have him commit some fun atrocity. Like he has a Goblin stew, and at first he's horrified, but realizes it's pretty good, and asks for seconds. Or I suppose a human stew works too.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-08, 06:47 PM
Don't. I hope he smites your characters into oblivion so you have to roll up new ones, because that's essentially what you're trying to do to him: End his character.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-08, 06:49 PM
Oh. I was assuming the Paladin was your character. If it isn't, don't do anything until you've talked to them. Then it's up to them to find a fun way to fall.

Torger
2008-04-08, 07:11 PM
Don't. I hope he smites your characters into oblivion so you have to roll up new ones, because that's essentially what you're trying to do to him: End his character.


QFT. I agree that that he should totally make you folks into hasenpfeffer.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-08, 07:36 PM
I assume this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=38356) is the bunny sorcerer in question. So, not only are you trying to screw over one of the other players, you're cheating as well? Brilliant.

(PROTIP: It is mathematically impossible for an 11th level sorcerer with 2 (!) CON to have 61 HP. In fact, it's impossible for him to have any HP total other than 11.)

TempusCCK
2008-04-08, 09:26 PM
I second Renegade Paladin, you're all asking for quite the Smiting.

Kyeudo
2008-04-08, 09:35 PM
I assume this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=38356) is the bunny sorcerer in question. So, not only are you trying to screw over one of the other players, you're cheating as well? Brilliant.

(PROTIP: It is mathematically impossible for an 11th level sorcerer with 2 (!) CON to have 61 HP. In fact, it's impossible for him to have any HP total other than 11.)

If this bunny is like his last one, the bunny is the familiar of the other sorcerer and so has half his hitpoints.

Thrawn183
2008-04-08, 09:37 PM
Well, in the game I play in, one of the characters poisoned the paladin's weapon in the middle of a fight. The paladin was entirely willing, methinks, because he was so busy metagaming he forgot the whole paladin roleplaying schtick.

Anyways, poison is a great way to make a paladin fall.

Just make sure this is something you really really really really want to do first.

GoC
2008-04-08, 10:52 PM
Then, convince X that you need their help with something. Pay well, a good portion of it up front. Find a way to engineer a situation so that the paladin stumbles upon you and X, and make it look like your life's in dire peril. Paladin smites commoner (who happened to actually be the minister of the town or somesuch). Paladin just willingly committed an evil act. That he didn't know it was evil is irrelevant. After all, look at Miko.

Smite wouldn't work unless the commoner was evil.


Actually, minor nitpick, but paladins can work with evil people, as long as the evil people commit no evil acts (So the paladin would have to try to stop them).


Code of Conduct
a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters,
...
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

skywalker
2008-04-08, 11:01 PM
Confront him with the number of threads GITP currently has devoted to making paladins fall. This number alone should be enough to drive him homicidal.

Can't we give alignment a break? Maybe go back to breaking optimizing wizards, or monks, or truenamers?

Mewtarthio
2008-04-08, 11:48 PM
How about a compromise: You convince him to play a Grey Guard instead. He now works for you because he's a badass antihero with a chip on his shoulder and a world full of evil to torture. He can be the Bad Cop, and you guys can be the Downright Freaking Sadistic Gestalt Cop. :smallsmile:

Khanderas
2008-04-09, 02:24 AM
How about a compromise: You convince him to play a Grey Guard instead. He now works for you because he's a badass antihero with a chip on his shoulder and a world full of evil to torture. He can be the Bad Cop, and you guys can be the Downright Freaking Sadistic Gestalt Cop. :smallsmile:
:smallbiggrin:

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-09, 02:51 AM
Does he want this for his character? If so, then we'll talk. If not, don't. It's extremely rude to say the least.

Dannoth
2008-04-09, 07:38 AM
Step 1 - Disguise Check on innocent lvl 1 bystander (a whole lot of pale make-up & a black shiny robe)
Step 2 - Inform the paladin that an unholy Lich is ahead and he needs to kill it before it casts at him
Step 3 - Get some folding chairs and a six pack.

Renx
2008-04-09, 08:29 AM
1. Stretch a trapwire across a path, at about half-knee height.
2. Have the village hag "foresee" his fall.
3. Trick him into running through the path prepared earlier.
4. ????
5. Prophet.

Presto, one fallen paladin.

//Edit1: Damn, I just realized: He won't fall if he makes his ref save! Plan B, everyone!

Roderick_BR
2008-04-09, 03:31 PM
Step 1 - Disguise Check on innocent lvl 1 bystander (a whole lot of pale make-up & a black shiny robe)
Step 2 - Inform the paladin that an unholy Lich is ahead and he needs to kill it before it casts at him
Step 3 - Get some folding chairs and a six pack.
One Detect Evil and/or Detect Undead and your plan fails. If he didn't bother trying these, he was not much of a paladin anyway...
And even if it does work, you'll have a LG fighter-without-fighter-feats trying to atone, since it was a mistake forced on him by an evil character :smalltongue:
Bonus cookies if he, after atoning, manages to find a cleric that can help him undo his error, and go on a quest to bring the innocent back to life.
Yeah, I like to screw evil people by playing by the rules :smallamused:

Cuddly
2008-04-09, 04:19 PM
Anything that forces him to make a balance check will probably make him fall.

kentma57
2008-04-09, 05:29 PM
I assume this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=38356) is the bunny sorcerer in question. So, not only are you trying to screw over one of the other players, you're cheating as well? Brilliant.

(PROTIP: It is mathematically impossible for an 11th level sorcerer with 2 (!) CON to have 61 HP. In fact, it's impossible for him to have any HP total other than 11.)

1st- Remember when awakened the creature becomes a magical beast, d12 HD.

2nd- I can make him trip any time I want.

3rd- Don't worry I would never use this plan unless the player agrees OOC.

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-09, 05:31 PM
True, but your Hit Dice from class levels don't change, and besides, you had to be awakened before you took class levels anyway...

Torger
2008-04-09, 05:33 PM
I'm pretty sure class hitdie override racial.

After all, you can't be a moose sorcerer who is suddenly awakened. You're an awakened moose sorcerer (Which, again, is patently ridiculous. How do you make the somatic gestures?) Ipso facto, your racial HD are 12s, and your class HD might as well be d1s, given your con penalty.

For the record, this would never, ever, ever, ever, ever make the cut in any game I've ever played in. The concept might, but the "ruin someone else's character for the lulz" thing will get you bombarded with tin cans and cheesits.

Edit: Also, your charisma is nowhere near high enough to cast 5th level spells. Charisma-enhancing items don't increase your bonus spells or spellcasting capability. It only ups your spell DC and skills.

kentma57
2008-04-09, 05:37 PM
Look, the DM was involved in the entire building of "Crispy the Bunny" it check out with the DM. If you want to complain about my DM's ruling start a new thread :smallannoyed:.

Randalor
2008-04-09, 06:57 PM
You could always just persuade the Paladin to turn evil. Give him some Goblin baked goods *Elfs that had turned into goblins, not the OotS kind* and then convince him that there would all the cookies he can eat, if he renounces Bob the Happy God of Love, and worships Nerull, the God of Deliciously Evil Cooking. Plus the whole "Blackguard levels" thing.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-09, 07:22 PM
1st- Remember when awakened the creature becomes a magical beast, d12 HD.

2nd- I can make him trip any time I want.

3rd- Don't worry I would never use this plan unless the player agrees OOC.
Magical beast HD is d10. The only creature types that use d12s are dragons and undead.

kentma57
2008-04-09, 08:50 PM
Magical beast HD is d10. The only creature types that use d12s are dragons and undead.

Ghaaa! Leave Crispy alone :smallmad:. d12, d10 what ever I can make a mistake...

The_Snark
2008-04-10, 01:57 AM
You're kind of nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking here, people; he answered your more on-topic question...


3rd- Don't worry I would never use this plan unless the player agrees OOC.

What he's looking for is a good in-game scheme that would make a dramatic and convincing fall. Not a way to screw over the paladin's player. Personally, if I was playing a paladin and was presented (OOC) with a really interesting and dramatic plot for turning to the Dark Side, one which fit the character, I'd at least consider it. Whereas I doubt I'd go for a fall that involved being tricked into smiting a random commoner, and for some reason going straight to Evil afterwards. Believability is key.