The Giant loves Paladins

[Cestrian]

Seriously, they've been portrayed as surprisingly effective and cool giving that they're all NPCs who you would expect to be cannon fodder.

The major paladins we've seen, within the webcomics themselves, are as follows. Miko who, while an antagonist, is the main focus of the comic for the best part of 100 comics and has a major role for the next 150 that up to and including her own solo adventure. She gets a good deal of psychological focus and ultimately, to my recollection, the only death in the online strips treated solely in a sad, sentimental fashion. Even Roy's death has a punchline, Miko's doesn't. In terms of capability, she takes down the entire Order twice, wipes out two relatively powerful characters (Samantha and her dad) in a matter of moments and does what none of the main characters has managed to do by defeating Redcloak one to one. Moreover, there's a series of strips (fighting the ogres) written largely to show her forming and carrying out an effective plan that none of the Order had come up with.

Hinjo who is introduced basically as the likeable guy to balance out Miko and Shojo and is continually written as the guy to root for in his battles against Kubota and Redcloak for control of Azure City. He gets numerous strips designed solely to show him as being likeable or cool e.g putting himself between Miko and Belkar knowing he's outmatched, getting the big cool wolf mount or taking on the hecuba and two ninjas by himself. He is also now a major character (complete with a dramatic emotional- growth moment where he chooses to leave Azure City) and the de facto leader of Elan's group now they're at sea. Also he survives the fall of Azure City while the rest of the named leadership such as Shojo, General Chang and Sangwaan don't. In fact. iirc, not a single named paladin has died in the strip.

O'Chul who has had the last six strips basically written to show that he's a badass. He also bitchslaps Redcloak both logically and morally when they argue and is held up by the slaves as a great inspiration.

Soon who gets to be very compassionate in his farewell to Miko showing us he's a nice guy and does what nobody else in the comic ever has done by defeating Xykon and Redcloak single-handedly showing us he's a badass.

Lien who is somewhat sidelined but does get some nice cool moments like holding off the Hobgoblins at Hinjo's junk by herself and destroying Redcloak's fiendish octopus with her shark mount (while Durkon, Elan and V were helpless to stop it). Also, got to survive the battle.

Thanh who is the leader of the united Azure city resistance (something Haley specifically couldn't manage to do) and generally portrayed as a good solid guy.

In conclusion, these guys are often cooler than the main characters.

[Renegade Paladin]

Miko isn't a named paladin? :smalltongue:

[Lissibith]

Well... I suppose she wasn't when she died, if that counts... *halo*

[Cestrian]

When she died? No.

[Querzis]

...I'm not sure if this is sarcasm referring to all the people who said a few months ago that the Giant hate paladins or not? Well, no matter if thats what Cestrian wanted to do or not, I gotta say I find this thread really hilarious after I spent lots of time in those other threads trying to convince people that the Giant doesnt hate paladins.

[Callista]

Paladins are like jalapenos. You either love 'em or you hate 'em, and whenever they show up, they don't go unnoticed.

[Mando Knight]

I actually was going to make a thread like this before I spied this one... Rich seems to be the guy who I would beg to DM for me... I've been disappointed in how much others seem to bash Pallys on these forums, while I'm here wanting to have the Twelve Peers randomly show up in the PHB and strut their awesome...

I've found myself sympathizing more and more with O'Chul lately... not empathizing, mind you (never have been or want to be in a similar situation myself)...

[Cestrian]

...Is this is sarcasm referring to all the people who said a few months ago that the Giant hate paladins? Well, no matter if thats what Cestrian wanted to do or not, I gotta say I find this thread really hilarious after I spent lots of time in those other threads trying to convince people that the Giant doesnt hate paladins.

Yeah, it's in response to that. I always disagreed with the idea that if you hated a type of character you put a bunch of them in the comic rather than just ignoring them and I never though guys like Hinjo were portrayed badly because they lost a few fights.

Anyway, I figured that people made "Rich Burlew hates paladin" threads partly on the basis that guys like O'Chul and Thanh were being kicked around and not getting to do anything cool. So now they are getting to do cool stuff it's only fair to make threads giving him credit for it.

[wumpus]

The catch is Rich hates Paladin PCs, not NPCs. The point being that paladins typically (and to a certain extent are required) to boss and police the rest of the party to act in an exalted fashion. They might make good tools to tell a story (and possibly to railroad the PCs when necessary), but in a group they force either letting the paladin make all the choices or a confrontation requiring either the breaking of the party, or the paladin will fall/die (the other PCs backing down reduces it to "the paladin makes all the choices").

Presumably, you could make a great solo paladin, provided you had enough support (cohorts and whatnot).

To make matters worse, this would only lead to the party trying to get the paladin into one of those "end justifies the means" orders. Just suggest it at the appropriate time and take a picture of the player's face when he finds out it is run by succubi (they don't alway seduce with sex appeal, you know...).

[Callista]

That's really only true of badly-played paladins, or paladins in non-good parties. Realistically, a lawful guy should be a team player--though obviously not when it comes to doing evil. Paladins work out fine if the party is mostly Good aligned, and if the paladin's player is experienced enough to know how to RP properly. Realistically, a paladin wouldn't join a non-good party anyway; they're not the people who'd have the same goals he does; so it's no surprise that there's trouble when people insist on playing paladins alongside PCs the character would never choose to associate with. Many PCs would never get along together, realistically; and they only associate with each other because their players want them to. That's enough trouble as it is; but when you're playing a guy with a code of conduct, it's worse. Paladins are most likely to have such a code of conduct, so naturally they get the worst of the shattered suspension-of-disbelief.

[NENAD]

Paladins, properly played, are some of the most awesome kinds of characters to be and to be in a party with. I love being a paladin (when I'm with a good group), but I'm usually a passive paladin. Occasionally the party will try to take an action directly contradictory to the paladins' code and you'll be forced to tell them that if they go through with that, you're honor-bound to do everything in your power to stop them, but most of the time you're just an incredibly compassionate, reliable person. I'm not sure if that's better than a well-played assertive paladin, but it's definitely easier to play it right.

[Revanmal]

I dont think Rich really hates Paladins so much as he hates people who play them poorly. Like NENAD said, properly played paladins are awesome. It's the Mikos that completely suck in a group.

[T-O-E]

Yeah, it's in response to that. I always disagreed with the idea that if you hated a type of character you put a bunch of them in the comic rather than just ignoring them and I never though guys like Hinjo were portrayed badly because they lost a few fights.

Anyway, I figured that people made "Rich Burlew hates paladin" threads partly on the basis that guys like O'Chul and Thanh were being kicked around and not getting to do anything cool. So now they are getting to do cool stuff it's only fair to make threads giving him credit for it.

Rich Burlew wrote he disliked paladins (or atleast their strict moral code) somewhere on this site, I can't remember where.

[pjackson]

Rich Burlew wrote he disliked paladins (or atleast their strict moral code) somewhere on this site, I can't remember where.

I think this is what you are refering to - http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html

Though he isn't quite saying that.

I somewhat disagree with what he did write.
In my experience it is the characters who claim to be CN but act CE who are the worst offenders for forcing their morality on the party.
And sometimes deciding that your character would act differently to stay with the party would destroy the character and make him not worth playing.

[hamishspence]

yes, the Police problem. the Association clause tends to perpetuate this. Also issues as to what a paladin must do when they witness an evil or dishonorable act. Always a bit tricky.

[Roderick_BR]

Rich Burlew wrote he disliked paladins (or atleast their strict moral code) somewhere on this site, I can't remember where.
I think he said in one of the books that he dislikes how paladins moral code is written in the books, and how most DMs and players play them.
The paladins in this comic are Rich's view of them, both the fanatical types you find in many games, like Miko, and the devoted knight types, like Hinjo and O-Chul.
Funny enough, Thann is a more average type, rigid enough for the classical paladin archetype (preferring to fight hordes of goblins instead of falling back and planning out), yet flexible enough (accepting the presence of a rogue like Haley).
All in all, I think Rich has a good showing on several types of characters, besides class/race variations.

[Jade_Tarem]

Someone used to have this in their signature:

Paladins make awesome friends;
it's always great to see one.
They're always nice to have around,
but who would want to be one?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

i admit i have barely skimmed over the thread, but i have this crazy idea that Mr. Burlew is capable of writing the comic without letting his love or hate for a certain class in D&D influence it. No other than making a good story or some snarky jokes about poles in certain parts of the body.

[The Wanderer]

i admit i have barely skimmed over the thread, but i have this crazy idea that Mr. Burlew is capable of writing the comic without letting his love or hate for a certain class in D&D influence it. No other than making a good story or some snarky jokes about poles in certain parts of the body.

Congratulations, you win the thread. :smallbiggrin:

Although, as said above, this thread is largely a spoof of other forumgoers who complained repeatedly that the Giant's treatment of Miko or him having paladins lose battles was proof that he hated paladins.