Redcloak has Lost His Touch

[Admiral_Kelly]

I am really disappointed by the past few comics. Redcloak has scolded Team Evil for toying with the prisoner behind his back and mocked in kind - okay, nothing new; but when we learn he has been keeping O-Chul interrogated for no sound reason this really underscores him. O-Chul proved him to be lacking in intellect; one of the character's most defining traits. He has threatened to throw a bunch of NPCs into the rift only to back down at the last minute. To top it all off, his actions have only inspired a rebellion within the prisoner ranks...

Burlew, what are you doing? Get the idiot ball out of Redclaok's pocket and make him the usual bad villain we all know and love!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Even smart people can get a bad idea in their head, and refuse to consider that they might be wrong. No matter the evidence to the contrary.

O-Chul really doesn't know about the other gates. Information like that is often given out on a "need to know" basis, and O-Chul for all his strength might not have needed to know.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Even smart people can get a bad idea in their head, and refuse to consider that they might be wrong. No matter the evidence to the contrary.Point taken; and I will acknowledge this as a possibility. Still, this has been holding Redclock back by three months.

[Trizap]

this from the same person who didn't recognize why Haley doesn't kill Belkar, even when she states:

:haley: "yea but if I didn't need all the help I can get, would I be traveling with a coldblooded murderer like you?"

:belkar: "touche"


thing is, Redcloak hasn't lost his touch; Rich has just revealed Redcloaks greatest character flaw: over-dedication, irrationally trying to aclomplish something even when its hopeless, O-Chul has been tortured for like four months, don't you think by now Redcloak should have realized that O-Chul didn't know anything? he probably realized it a while back but he irrationally
rejected the most logical conclusion in his belief he could further his goals.

[Admiral_Kelly]

this from the same person who didn't recognize why Haley doesn't kill Belkar, even when she states:I understood why she did not kill him. I just said the decision to have him continue to stay with her made her Chaotic Neutral. However, this has nothing to do with the topic. At all.

[tanonx]

thing is, Redcloak hasn't lost his touch; Rich has just revealed Redcloaks greatest character flaw: over-dedication, irrationally trying to aclomplish something even when its hopeless, O-Chul has been tortured for like four months, don't you think by now Redcloak should have realized that O-Chul didn't know anything? he probably realized it a while back but he irrationally
rejected the most logical conclusion in his belief he could further his goals.


I'd say I have to agree with that. While I'm not entirely sure why Redcloak was particularly 'awesome' in the first place, he refuses to let himself see that O-Chul doesn't know everything. I imagine that when most of your plans are the only sane ones around, it's tough to imagine one of them not working out.

I'd agree with the rest of that post, too, but I think it's off topic. Not that you aren't allowed to think it to yourself...

[zuzak]

My opinion is that Redcloak knows that the more he knows, the better a chance he has at getting the gate before its destroyed. He also knows that the destruction of the gate could possibly lead to the destruction of the world. While this isn't enough for him to give up his plans, he is willing to spend time to try to better the odds that he won't be responsible for the world ending.

I had previously thought of Redcloak as an idiot for torturing O-Chul, but now I think he does have a good reason.

As for the "inspiring a rebellion," Redcloak is lawful evil. Lawful evils seem to be the type to fail to understand how to fight a guerrilla war/ rebellion (for example, instead of making the guerrillas satisfied so that they no longer oppose you, you try to crack down and break them, which is much less likely to work).

[Callista]

O-Chul probably doesn't know he's inspiring anything, either.

See, this is why I'm a bit worried about Thanh... he's not gonna be used to these hit-and-run things, and now he's probably going to have to figure out how to use a bunch of slaves who are suddenly volunteering for duty!

[NENAD]

Up until now, Redcloak has been part of an underground movement ("Team Evil") which was full of people who were either just plain stupid or else far too lazy to put their intellect to any use. Now he's dealing with people who have at least average intelligence every day, who are not his peers or even his subordinates, but his captives. He's always been defending a dungeon, leading an army, or regrouping Team Evil...Everyone has always been with him one-hundred percent simply because he's their supreme leader. He's never had to deal with slaves before, and he's never had to deal with any threat of revolt.

Maybe Redcloak only looked so awesome because he was in a situation that suited him, and now he's in one that doesn't.

[FujinAkari]

I agree with the above posters... Redcloaks single most defining character trait is his single-minded deturmination. Once he settles on a path, he will do anything and everything necessary to follow that path to the end, regardless of what obstacles might present themselves to its completion.

His saving grace is that he is smart enough that he chooses very wise paths 95% of the time, and so he very rarely is hurt by his deturmination. This is one of those 5% (one of two really, the other showed up in SoD.)

So Redcloak doesn't come off as stupid, just invested. He is suffering from the Gambler's Fallacy: The more time he puts into discovering what O-chul is hiding, the harder it is to give up that investment by admitting O-chul isn't hiding anything.

[Duaneyo1]

Agree with Nenad. Red cloak has not lost his touch he is just out of his element. While he is very organized and pragmatic he simply cannot imagine anyone( especially a human ) being as dedicated to a cause as he is. This is the reason he blew a gasket when O’Chul wouldn’t give him anymore information.

[Sir_Elderberry]

On the contrary, I think these last few comics have been great for both O-Chul and Redcloak. O-Chul showed us a great example of paladin-ness--which counterbalances our last really important really oath-bound paladin, Miko, by showing how to do it right. Redcloak's intelligence wasn't disproved; rather, it was just shown to be unwilling to accept certain ideas. He simply can't imagine that the Azure City Paladins would handicap themselves, and more to the point, if they did, he can't believe that it actually worked. You can be intelligent and arrogant at the same time. In addition, his refusal to not toss the slaves into the rift wasn't weakness--it's part of Redcloak's character that he's not really into the whole PEWPEW KILL IT ALL attitude that Xykon might have. I've never seen him as sadistic, especially since his epiphany over goblinkind during the battle. His not sacrificing the prisoners suggests that he still sees himself as playing by rules and is trying to maintain the moral high ground from his point of view.

[NENAD]

It could be argued that Redcloak was only being efficient with the slaves, not trying to take any kind of moral high ground. The odds of a slave screaming relevant Snarl-related information are slim to none, especially when they know that they'll be giving Redcloak the ultimate victory if they do, and he thinks that releasing them will spread GOOD sentiment about the occupiers, not bad. This is probably further proof that he has no idea how to run an occupation.

[Callista]

I think it's both. Redcloak likes to do things which "take the moral high ground", because they make him feel good about himself (that's true about anyone!); but he mostly does things that are efficient or useful otherwise, too. When he finds himself doing something that's neither useful nor can it be explained with some moral explanation--such as sending hobgoblins to their deaths during the Azure City battle--he realizes what he's doing and turns around. He's very good at rationalizing; but he's honest with himself at least to the point that when he can't rationalize something, he stops doing it.

[Admiral_Kelly]

I still feel the character has been cheated through all of this. Redcloak is suppose to be the brains of the operation and now he has proven that his brains are not all well together. I hear alot of 'stubborn not stupid' comments from everyone here but is stubbornness not a form of stupidity? Especially in this case given the extremity of it all (three to four months of non-progression while wasting time torturing one man proven not to have information about the gates on a regular basis).

Plus, he spared the humans. What does he care!? He could have at least saved face and sacrificed them as he promised O-Chul. That would probably break the paladin's spirit too. I remember when he had that prejudice against hobgoblins he would throw away his own entirely loyal hobgoblins left and right for his own amusement until he had an epiphany. I missed the part where he started having sympathy for humans. This really gets me.

[FujinAkari]

Stubbornness has nothing to do with Stupidity. Stupidity is when you do not know something and refuse to learn, stubbornness is when you know all the facts, but continue to give credence to your gut over them. Redcloak is in no way, shape, or form stupid, nor is he acting like that. I don't know why you want to think of him as stupid, but that seems to be an issue you are having, because the comic isn't supporting your reading :P.

As for the 3-4 month thing... what ELSE is there for him to do? When you only have one captive... you can't help BUT try and get information out of him. Its not like Redcloak has a ton of options here.

And yes, he spared the humans. Redcloak has NEVER been a butcher. He has never killed anything for fun. He isn't compassionate, and he doesn't seem concerned about the human's fate, but that doesn't mean he should abruptly do a complete 180 and go "GWAAAR! ALL HUMANS DIE DIE DIE!"

Redcloak does what he does because he has too. He has come to accept death as an inevitability, but he doesn't relish it. Why would you expect that to change now?

[Charles Phipps]

Just a reminder guys, remember Redcloak is far stupider than Xykon. Or more precisely, Xykon is far far smarter than Redcloak. The only thing to remember is that the lives of Xykon's forces mean nothing to him and all of his goals are just self-amusement.

In other words, Redcloak comes off as rational but he's never going to approach is master and that's why he'll always be Xykon's slave.

[The_Hunting_Enemy]

Stubborn is not synonymous with Stupid.

Stubborn

1.unreasonably obstinate; obstinately unmoving: a stubborn child.
2.fixed or set in purpose or opinion; resolute: a stubborn opponent of foreign aid.
3.obstinately maintained, as a course of action: a stubborn resistance.
4.difficult to manage or suppress: a stubborn horse; a stubborn pain.
5.hard, tough, or stiff, as stone or wood; difficult to shape or work.

Stupid

1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

So no, stubborn does not mean he is stupid. Just set in his ways, and doesn't want to think he may be wrong. He's got a lot riding on him being right.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Stupidity is a lack of intellect in my book. Being stubborn is a sign of a lack of intellect. Ergo, Redcloak has been acting pretty damn stupid. A better use of that time would be going after the other gates; of which they already know the locations of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).

Never killed anything just for fun? Try here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) And here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) And several other examples of Redcloak enjoy the prospect of hobgoblins dying. That was a villainous -though overcome- character trait of his. However, just because he will no longer needlessly sacrifice hobgoblins working for him does not mean his inner sadism goes away. Killing the humans would not have been useless anyway since it would have proven his will, albeit quite stubborn, to match O-Chul's. Now he just comes off as having been beaten in terms of logic, morals, and character.

[SoD]

Point taken; and I will acknowledge this as a possibility. Still, this has been holding Redclock back by three months.

I think that it merely got to the point where he can't stop, because stopping the interogations will mean he's wasted all the time he's spent interrogating him. Sound familiar?

[The_Hunting_Enemy]

Stupidity is a lack of intellect in my book. Being stubborn is a sign of a lack of intellect.
No, it's not. What book are you reading from here?
Stubbornness can also be used to describe someone who will not give up information no matter what the cost- does that make that person stupid?

Similarliy, Redcloak just doesn't want to be wrong because, as we are saying, he needs to be right. Otherwise he's at square one, and has to admit to being wrong. This does not mean he is stupid.

[Porthos]

Admiral Kelly, have you read Start of Darkness? After reading it, it seems to me that stubbornness to the point of (near) self-destructive behavior ain't exactly out of character for this particular goblin. :smallwink:

He is, after all, A Green Miko with a (Admittedly Slight) Conscience. :smalltongue:

EDIT::::

Just a piece to expand on my reasoning. No SoD spoilers in this quoted block. Just a bit of analyzing Redcloak's Fatal Character Flaw:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2810025&postcount=27 (<------ From the SoD discussion thread. Post contains MAJOR SPOILERS in it)

As I said in the original thread, Redcloak is the Classical Greek Tragic Figure. He is blinded by (a quite justifiable) hatred and it leads him to make mistakes. And once he makes these mistakes, he compounds them because he is afraid to face up to them, rather than taking the harder road of admitting error (again, like a certain ex-Paladin we all know). And it doesn't help that the only person that he associates with regularly is one of the most evil people to ever grace the comic.

But make no mistake. All of Redcloak's sins are his own darn fault.

The behavior we have seen in the last few strips is perfectly in character with Redcloak's past history. The guy has flaws, just like everyone else. And admittting that he might be wrong on something very important is Redcloak's Major Flaw. And one he needs to work on if he is going to succeed as a villain. :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

Never killed anything just for fun? Try here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) And here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) And several other examples of Redcloak enjoy the prospect of hobgoblins dying. That was a villainous -though overcome- character trait of his.

Reread this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) You seem to think Redcloak ONLY regretted the fact that he was letting Hobgoblins die needlessly, while what he actually says is "I'm turning into XYKON! ... I have to stop all the senseless deaths!"

While, yes, he doesn't give two craps whether humans live or die, he doesn't take any pleasure in killing them. He dislikes senseless death, and BOTH examples you quoted were him emulating Xykon (which he explicitly confirms) not who he actually is. Heck, the second example isn't even Redcloak! Thats all Xykon, Redcloak is just allowing it, which isn't unusual given their relationship.

Try again :).

[Alex Warlorn]

While Redcloak no longer sees Hobgoblins negatively, his mercy to humans is the same as me not squashing the moth on the ceiling when I make a sandwich. But I do squash it if it's on the table.

Redcloak's dark attitude towards humanity (never mind his species has been the trial by fire for all the OTHER first level heroes out there regardless of species), has only INCREASED since letting go of that hatred towards a variant of his own kind.

And meeting a paladin who doesn't quite fit his stereotypes, is going to make him even more awful.

But personal I do think he goofed on misjudging on what the slaves would think of the whole affair. Then again, XYKON is the one whose good at playing people like harpsecords not Redcloak.

[Pronounceable]

Everyone gets stupid from time to time regardless of their true intellect up to and including geniuses (especially geniuses). Redcloak, although quite smart and wholly awesome, is no exception. He'll get over it.

But that doesn't mean he's *lost* his touch. From another thread:


Redcloak interprets everything O'chul does in a negative way, and expects the human slaves to care only about their own lives...because to him, they're monsters. He views them the same way a stereotypical adventurer views goblins. If he was being tortured and his hobgoblins were being forced to watch, he'd expect them to be inspired by his resistance...but humans? He assumes they're petty, selfish, venal, and above all, simplistic.

This is (when looked from a different angle) yet another aspect of his awesome. He's a green supremacist. But it's still a flaw.

And another important trait of Redcloak is efficiency. Wasting slaves is dumb, esp when they can go break the spirit of their fellows in the pens with tales of paladin hypocrisy. Or at least that's what he thought.


And he promised us something very original. He won't disappoint us.

[warmachine]

Redcloak is on a holy mission for his entire race (hobgoblins included) and, as others say, is overly dedicated to it. He is pursuing an ultimate plan that he knows will totally destroy him. He has not lost his touch rather, his intellect suffers from a critical weakness: he cannot step back from his mission, even to re-evaluate and re-prioritise. To stop tortuing O'Chul is to admit a minor failure on his quest and this would be a betrayal, not to his vanity, to his family, tribe, god and race. A man who cannot stop, let alone go backward temporarily.

[Morty]

It's been said already, but it should be pointed out again: for Redcloak, humans are savages who kill goblins for XP and paladins are self-righteous mass murderers. Just like for humans, all goblins are monsters. Both aren't true, but it doesn't stop RC, just as it never stops adventurers for killing someone because of green skin and fangs.

[Aquillion]

Also, don't forget: Redcloak's not in a rush. Nobody's worried about the PCs. The gates aren't going anywhere. Xykon can literally wait forever (in fact, if he wanted to he could just wait for the PCs to all die of old age.)

But when they rushed the Azure City gate without doing the proper research first, they almost died. That's a game over. There's no reason for them to take that kind of risk again while other options might exist.

Additionally: Torturing O-Chul isn't the only thing they're doing with this time. Xykon is making magical items, too (remember, he complained about the fact that he can only spend 8 hours a day working on them.) Those, quite likely, are important preperations for the next gate, too. They could be searching the city for other information (remember, even if O-Chul is telling the truth, they could assume that the city's leadership would never keep the oath -- and they'd be right, of course. It's not impossible that Lord Shojo really did have a secret diary somewhere with information about the gates. Though, admittedly, it would likely have been blown up.) They could be using divinations. Etc, etc, etc.

[tanonx]

Of course, it could all be a huge ploy to get the point across to O-Chul that he'd be a terrible person for not telling whatever he knows. If not for the fact that it'd have very little story impact, and the assumption that this comic may have channeled a bit of annoyance...

[zuzak]

Never killed anything just for fun? Try here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) And here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) And several other examples of Redcloak enjoy the prospect of hobgoblins dying. That was a villainous -though overcome- character trait of his. However, just because he will no longer needlessly sacrifice hobgoblins working for him does not mean his inner sadism goes away. Killing the humans would not have been useless anyway since it would have proven his will, albeit quite stubborn, to match O-Chul's. Now he just comes off as having been beaten in terms of logic, morals, and character.

In both of these cases, Redcloak would gain something from sacrificing the hobgoblins. First, he needs to scout safely. Then, he needs to get past the guard monster without killing it.

Killing your own slaves to prove what? That he'll kill humans? Isn't that what he did when he attacked? I think O-chul knows that he'll kill humans. Besides, they're slaves. They're useful for doing stuff, especially when they aren't resisting, something that Redcloak thought he was doing.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Reread this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) You seem to think Redcloak ONLY regretted the fact that he was letting Hobgoblins die needlessly, while what he actually says is "I'm turning into XYKON! ... I have to stop all the senseless deaths!"

While, yes, he doesn't give two craps whether humans live or die, he doesn't take any pleasure in killing them. He dislikes senseless death, and BOTH examples you quoted were him emulating Xykon (which he explicitly confirms) not who he actually is. Heck, the second example isn't even Redcloak! Thats all Xykon, Redcloak is just allowing it, which isn't unusual given their relationship.

Try again :).Examples of Redcloak being needlessly sadistic? Here is one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) Another example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) And here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) And heck, the first half of the battle of Azure city. Plus, as an example after his epiphany on how his new perspective does not apply to humans, I present this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)

Also, as I stated in my previous post it would NOT have been useless. The whole 'stubbornness is his character flaw' argument holds some water but what they forget is that all the other times there was a plausibly valid reason for it. Here? None at all. Its like that aspect of the character was jacked up to 10.

[NENAD]

Weeding out morale problems, cutting down on travel time to an enemy city to secure the element of surprise, and getting a valuable asset to be productive are all very valid goals to expend troops on, especially when those troops can be remade into only slightly less efficient ghouls. Those were all examples of ruthlessness, not needless sadism. Further, killing someone is quite a long ways off from having their soul destroyed. I think it may just be that Rich himself is reluctant to have anyone who doesn't really deserve it be fed to the Snarl.

That being said, my money is on Xykon being Snarled if OoTS ever ends (or gets a new main villain).

[Aquillion]

Plus, as an example after his epiphany on how his new perspective does not apply to humans, I present this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)To be fair, he seems to think it likely that she's a double agent at that point (which is quite reasonable.) Killing her is a bit cold-blooded, but not exactly as monstrous as you're making it out to be.

[mikeejimbo]

I think 548 will change some minds about this topic. It seems he isn't just stubborn, he was buying time for the hobgoblins.

[warmachine]

Indeed. My previous statement is incorrect. Redcloak can step back from a minor failure to re-evaluate and re-prioritise. A high level cleric with a large army who thinks he's successfully establishing a resurgent goblin race. He's dangerous.

[Pronounceable]

He cared not all that much about O-Chul for some time it seems. His edge is as sharp as ever, if not more so.

[Porthos]

I still say it was his stubborness and various mental blocks is why it took so long for him to be convinced. :smallwink:

But at least he's showing the capability of moving beyond his mental blocks. :smalltongue:
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You're not buying that argument as a way of getting out of my previous position, are you? Oh well. Was worth a shot. :smallbiggrin:

[Drascin]

This is a little pet peeve of mine. Apparently, if a character is characterized as "smart" in a medium, he must, automatically, be infallible, a genius able to pull off the most masterful Xanatos Gambits (or even Roulettes) and he/she will never, ever be allowed to make any big mistake, or they'll instantly lose the status. That's not how people work. I'm sure you are pretty smart yourself, yet, have you never done something you later regretted because, looking back, it was monumentally stupid? Never been blinded by emotion enough to completely screw up? You probably have.

Now, picture this. Redcloak makes his mistake. It's understandable, as we have already discussed. And then, he's left with two choices - admit he was completely wrong, or believe his enemy to be smart. Being that RC's main character flaw is pride and stubborness, the choice is clear. His words today make it clear that he has thought he might have been wrong since long ago, but it took absolute proof like last comic's to have enough weight to make him finally shift gears.

And even then, it becomes obvious that O-Chul wasn't even his main priority these past months, with the mention of treaties and trade routes. Those are not things you pull out of thin air - he must have been working on it at least the last month. This, plus his reactions when they finally got the city, tells me RC has always been very much interested in fortifying Azure City and turning it into a true Goblin city.

So yeah, he's still very much smart. He's made a mistake, but it is one a real person without the kind of omniscient detachment we get would be liable to make - and I would hardly call this time wasted anyway, at least from his perspective.

[Gez]

Just a reminder guys, remember Redcloak is far stupider than Xykon. Or more precisely, Xykon is far far smarter than Redcloak. The only thing to remember is that the lives of Xykon's forces mean nothing to him and all of his goals are just self-amusement.

In other words, Redcloak comes off as rational but he's never going to approach is master and that's why he'll always be Xykon's slave.

No. There is nothing that says that Xykon is, in any way, smarter than Redcloak.

Xykon is not a Wizard. He is a SORCERER. That means his main stat is CHARISMA and he has no use for Intelligence. Sorcerer. Not Wizard. Sorcerer.

Redcloak is a Cleric. So his main stat is Wisdom.

[Gensuru]

There is a simple fact that hints at Xykon being rather stupid in fact: He has the most critical object in the hands of another being. He is evil and all his servants are evil. Did it never occur to him that they might betray him? I mean we by now know perfectly how RC sees Xykon: as a weapon. Nothing more, nothing less. When the time comes he will likely have no problems getting rid of him seeing that Xykon´s very soul hangs around RC´s neck. What do you think is faster and more likely to suceed? RC breaking the amulett or Xykon reacting and shooting out some paralization spell that actually works on RC? I hardly think Xykon would want to cast a lethal spell when he´d risk killing himself with it (by breaking the amulett himself).

So regarding the thread i hardly think Redcloak has lost his touch. On the contrary in my eyes he developed greatly. From the right hand man that has to suffer from his master´s stupid/odd whims he developed in my eyes into the new main villain. I mean fact is that it´s by now Redcloak who pulls about all the strings on team evil. He knows how to manipulate Xykon and he is the one to organize and control the hobgoblin army and city.

[Theodoriph]

There is a simple fact that hints at Xykon being rather stupid in fact: He has the most critical object in the hands of another being. He is evil and all his servants are evil. Did it never occur to him that they might betray him? I mean we by now know perfectly how RC sees Xykon: as a weapon. Nothing more, nothing less. When the time comes he will likely have no problems getting rid of him seeing that Xykon´s very soul hangs around RC´s neck. What do you think is faster and more likely to suceed? RC breaking the amulett or Xykon reacting and shooting out some paralization spell that actually works on RC? I hardly think Xykon would want to cast a lethal spell when he´d risk killing himself with it (by breaking the amulett himself).

So regarding the thread i hardly think Redcloak has lost his touch. On the contrary in my eyes he developed greatly. From the right hand man that has to suffer from his master´s stupid/odd whims he developed in my eyes into the new main villain. I mean fact is that it´s by now Redcloak who pulls about all the strings on team evil. He knows how to manipulate Xykon and he is the one to organize and control the hobgoblin army and city.



Breaking the amulet won't kill Xykon. If Redcloak breaks it, Xykon will kill him and will just make a new one. Redcloak has to kill Xykon (or have him killed/wait for him to be killed) before theoretically being able to destroy him.


That being said...the latest comic pretty much refutes the claims the OP was making about Redcloak's reasoning not being sound and him losing his touch. Looks like the green goblin's still got it.

[Inhuman Bot]

[QUOTE=Gensuru;4179260]There is a simple fact that hints at Xykon being rather stupid in fact: He has the most critical object in the hands of another being. He is evil and all his servants are evil. Did it never occur to him that they might betray him? I mean we by now know perfectly how RC sees Xykon: as a weapon. Nothing more, nothing less. When the time comes he will likely have no problems getting rid of him seeing that Xykon´s very soul hangs around RC´s neck. What do you think is faster and more likely to suceed? RC breaking the amulett or Xykon reacting and shooting out some paralization spell that actually works on RC? I hardly think Xykon would want to cast a lethal spell when he´d risk killing himself with it (by breaking the amulett himself).

SoD Spoiler: (I can't remember how to make spoilers, so it's in white. Remember that if Redcloak betreys Xykon, it means that he is a cold blooded murderer thet just killed his younger brother for no reason at all. Also it means he made alot of other mistakes for no reason. He couldn't act differently then because he was too chicken**** and he still is.

[Inhuman Bot]

[QUOTE=Gensuru;4179260]There is a simple fact that hints at Xykon being rather stupid in fact: He has the most critical object in the hands of another being. He is evil and all his servants are evil. Did it never occur to him that they might betray him? I mean we by now know perfectly how RC sees Xykon: as a weapon. Nothing more, nothing less. When the time comes he will likely have no problems getting rid of him seeing that Xykon´s very soul hangs around RC´s neck. What do you think is faster and more likely to suceed? RC breaking the amulett or Xykon reacting and shooting out some paralization spell that actually works on RC? I hardly think Xykon would want to cast a lethal spell when he´d risk killing himself with it (by breaking the amulett himself).

SoD Spoiler: (I can't remember how to make spoilers, so it's in white. Remember that if Redcloak betreys Xykon, it means that he is a cold blooded murderer thet just killed his younger brother for no reason at all. Also it means he made alot of other mistakes for no reason. He couldn't act differently then because he was too chicken**** and he still is.

[recluso]

the latest comic pretty much refutes the claims the OP was making about Redcloak's reasoning not being sound and him losing his touch. Looks like the green goblin's still got it.

A thing that starts to bother me more now is, if Redcloak is so concerned whether the hobgoblins are able to keep Azure City, why didn't Redcloak himself hunt down Haley and the rebels?

[Supreme Evil]

A thing that starts to bother me more now is, if Redcloak is so concerned whether the hobgoblins are able to keep Azure City, why didn't Redcloak himself hunt down Haley and the rebels?

He doesn't know Teleport, and he is busy establishing trade routes and alliances. Those are more important than a small band of rebels to his new city. Better to leave it to someone not busy with those things, like Tsukiko.

Remember, he only needs to stay allied with Xykon until he can give the Dark One control of a Gate. Once that is done, the Plan will be complete and he can betray Xykon. I think he will. Or maybe work up the balls to stop being so, in Xykon's words, "chickensh*t", and make the same choice his brother did.