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Stycotl
2008-04-08, 11:28 PM
yes, i realize that this info has probably been booted around the playground, and every other gaming website, but i can't seem to find a definitive answer. i have always played by my own houserule, but now i need to know by the books, how would you mix unarmed strikes with natural weapon attacks?

even if we can't come up with definitive, having a playground consensus would be handy. and if anyone has the link to a thread that has already definitively decided the matter, rather than dancing around it over and over, i'd be much obliged.

below is some of my snooping around the internet. mixed reviews. some yes yes. some say no. but those that say no generally site the same sources that say that a monster that wields a manufactured weapon could get its secondary (and primary as a secondary) attacks as long as they weren't being used to hold a weapon. so if that is the case, manufactured weapon is not really any different than unarmed *weapon*. where it came from is the only difference.

here's some of what i have so far:

http://www.rpgjunction.com/forums/dungeons-and-dragon/72350-combining-natural-and-monk-unarmed-attacks.html
look at the third paragraph. he states that unarmed strikes cannot be combined with natural attacks.

page 299 monstrous manual (then reiterated on page 311), says:


Natural and Manufactured Weapons: If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons, it usually uses its manufactured weapon as its primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, if its base attack bonus is +6 or higher), and uses its natural attacks as secondary attacks (-5 penalty on attack rolls, and 1/2 Strength bonus on damage rolls). While a humanoid fighting with two weapons takes a -2 penalty (or worse) on its primary attack, a monster fighting with a hand-held weapon and a natural weapon at the same times does not take this penalty—the natural weapon is a secondary attack, and that’s all.

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-807715.html
this would make it seem as if it is possible, but i could not find the faq that he was refering to. i think i was looking at a different one...

does the Monk get 7 attacks? Flurry of blows would give him four unarmed strikes with unnamed body parts, and Trolls have three natural attacks (bite, 2 claws, and possibly rend).

That appears correct. From the 3.5 FAQ:
"Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof
attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry)."

http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-164358.html
and, quoting the same faq:

Iku Rex
06-04-06, 02:48 PM
Ok, i know this has been covered, but what happens with monks and natural attacks from a polymorphed form?
If it is into a troll for example, how many attacks does a level 11 monk get and can they rend for extra damage?According to the RAW and the official FAQ you can combine your regular iterative attacks (or a flurry of blows) with secondary natural attacks. (Though you can't make regular iterative attacks or flurry with natural weapons.) So the monk could make four attacks from a flurry of blows (as normal) and then make three more secondary natural attacks (claw, claw, bite). The rend ability is triggered if both claws hit.

my houserule was to let them play it a bit with both uas and nat, then to judge how overbalanced it was. if too much, i'd make them pick round to round. i know that is a shoddy way to do it, but no one ever complained. it's time that i figured out the correct way to do it though.

aaron out.

Thinker
2008-04-08, 11:34 PM
As part of a full attack you can use both Unarmed Strikes and any Natural Attacks you have.

Darrin
2008-04-09, 07:10 AM
yes, i realize that this info has probably been booted around the playground, and every other gaming website, but i can't seem to find a definitive answer. i have always played by my own houserule, but now i need to know by the books, how would you mix unarmed strikes with natural weapon attacks?


What do you mean by "mix"? Do you mean, how do you attack with unarmed strikes and natural attacks in the same full-attack progression?

I believe that's already pretty well settled:

If you attack with an unarmed strike as your primary weapon, then you get your iterative attacks as normal. After that, you may use your natural attacks as secondary weapons, and take -5 on the attack roll.

You do not get extra natural attacks from a high BAB, and if the limb/appendage is busy with something like holding an object, then you can't attack with it.

Was there a specific scenario/condition you are having trouble with?

Shular
2008-04-09, 07:31 AM
Yup, just checked the monster manual...what Darrin said.

This, of course, means that a humanoid with claws fighting with paired weapons could do a full attack with those weapons then attack with their claws, even though they're holding weapons, so the rules SHOULD be clarified a bit. (eg if a clawed hand is holding something, it cannot make a clawed attack). Does the Rules Compendium cover this? (Personally, I believe that if a limb is used for a manufactured weapon attack it should not also be usable for a natural attack, but that's not how the RAW work.)

In any case, with regards to the monk's unarmed attack, remember that the monk uses its entire body to attack, so you could argue it uses other parts of its body for the unarmed attacks and claws/fangs, etc for its natural attacks.
(This gets a little tougher with the dragon, which, eventually, seems to get an attack with every body part, but I suppose a dragon monk would do a lot of headbutting before biting/clawing/wing buffetting/tail slapping/raking/tail sweeping/yada yada yada.)

Stycotl
2008-04-11, 01:22 AM
i am pretty sure it already specifies that weapon-wielding limbs (or shield-wielding, etc) cannot be used for natural attacks. even if not in the specific rules for a natural weapon (though i agree that it should be clarified there), i know it does somewhere under normal rules for pc's. it's probably in the srd under combat.