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Starsinger
2008-04-09, 11:16 AM
So.. I've been DMing a final fantasy game (not using d20) and one of my players has been ridiculously over powered. Half of it I've been chalking up to him having an extremely strong class (any class in any system that summons seems to be over powered to varying degrees), and the other half I'd been chalking up to him being an over-optimizer. Well it turns out, he's been cheating. Another player brought it to my attention, I'd been busy with alot of other game related things to really notice that the Summoner was cheating, and just figured that it was terrible mechanics. Basically, what he'd been doing is the equivalent of casting Disintegrate in a 60 ft spread with no chance of friendly fire.

I realize there is the possibility that he's unaware that he's been cheating. Given that he has a history of "forgetting" rules though.. I'm highly suspicious "What do you mean you can't use iterative attacks with power attack?" "What do you mean you can't use Rapid shot and Many shot at the same time?" But so.. the question is, what do I do?

I'm angry with him for cheating, I feel hurt and betrayed. I trust my players not to cheat and now that trust has been violated. I thought he had more respect from me than that. And mostly I'm mad at myself for not catching this sooner or myself. So what should I do about this?

blacksabre
2008-04-09, 11:36 AM
Simple..
Explain to him that you were paging through the rule books working on some ideas and re-read the description of what he is doing.
Then Tell him that the both of you have been mistakien and have both been playing it wrong. Hence forth, you will revert to playing it as described.

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-09, 11:42 AM
I would approach it from the "innocent until proven guilty" angle unless you're sure he's actively trying to lie to and decieve you. Include him in a discussion, don't directly confront him with the rules he's breaking (this would just make him defensive and then nothing gets solved and you're both upset.)

Tell him you're been looking in the rules and you don't really understand how his character works. Do not make an accusation and try to stay away from using the word 'you' because that directs focus on him and can change the tone to an argument. Go over it with him and subtly point out that the rules don't work the way he's thinking they work.

If he confesses to 'unintentionally' misrepresenting the rules to you (and I consider this likely if you use this soft approach), blame how unclear the rules are and try to be as understanding as possible. Come to an agreement about how best to resolve this in the future so his character is inline with what the rules allow and what you think is fair.

And of course, be sure to double check things in the future; especially from him, at least for a little while. Odds are this is just two different perspectives on the rules (one admittedly more false than the other) and it won't happen again, but it's best to catch it fast if it does.

Tyger
2008-04-09, 11:42 AM
I'll second what blacksabre said there, make it look like you both messed up on the rules, if you want not to ruffle feathers.

That said, I am a firm proponent of just asking "Where did you see how that works in that manner? I can't find that in my rule book." That lets it be known that you know the rule, and that you know he obviously isn't following that rule. His response should pretty quickly tell you whether or not its been intentional.

That said, where's this rule that you can't use Power Attack on iterative attacks? Or am I mis-reading what you are saying there? :smallsmile:

BlackStaticWolf
2008-04-09, 11:46 AM
That said, where's this rule that you can't use Power Attack on iterative attacks? Or am I mis-reading what you are saying there? :smallsmile:

Actually... I'd also like to know the answer to this. I was under the impression that you could, and if you can't I really want to know.

Starsinger
2008-04-09, 11:47 AM
That said, where's this rule that you can't use Power Attack on iterative attacks? Or am I mis-reading what you are saying there? :smallsmile:

It was 3rd edition (not 3.5) and I really thought the feat said "as a full attack action" I may be confusing what happened with another feat, but he was doing something which you normally cannot do with that feat, as I eventually noticed and brought it up to him, to which he responded "Yes, but Josh (the DM at the time) doesn't know that."

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-09, 11:57 AM
It was 3rd edition (not 3.5) and I really thought the feat said "as a full attack action" I may be confusing what happened with another feat, but he was doing something which you normally cannot do with that feat, as I eventually noticed and brought it up to him, to which he responded "Yes, but Josh (the DM at the time) doesn't know that."

Maybe it was use Light weapons (other than natural attacks or unarmed strikes) with a Power Attack? I can see people forgetting that exception pretty easily.

Anyway, it really does sound like this guy did know or at least have an idea that he was breaking the rules. I'd still approach him in a non-confrontational manner. He might not be used to DM's that actually double check and just letting him know you're watching his rules shenanigans might be enough to 'scare him straight' so to speak.

Burley
2008-04-09, 12:12 PM
I'm gonna agree with everybody above. Don't accuse, just try to figure it out. Look over his character sheet, and learn what's going on. If there are rules he doesn't understand, well, maybe he shouldn't be playing a character he doesn't grasp. This may be a good opportunity for the player to find something that he'll "forget" rules less with, and for you to get the summoner outta your game.

However, if he has said things like "the DM doesn't know that", he's trying to play a munchkin.
We have one player in my group who lies about her dice rolls, and "forgets" how many rounds she's used burning hands. We have learned to keep track of what we can, without letting her know that we know she's a dirty cheater. I mean...yeah...she's lies to me (DM)...but, if that's her way of having fun, I'm gonna let her do it, as long as it doesn't ruin everybody elses fun. So, she lied about initiative? She still goes after the Bugbear Skeleton that is standing in front of her.

Prometheus
2008-04-09, 12:21 PM
My usual approach to cheating is to occasionally say "Cheating is its own punishment in D&D. I mean, how pathetic is that? If you can live with being that desperate for a small bonus in a roleplaying game, sure, by all means go ahead!"

In this scenario, explain that neither of you knew the rule, and that you want these to go by the rules from now on. If the player is resistant to the idea, suggest an alternative drawback that keeps the spell similar to how its been used, but balances it out.

valadil
2008-04-09, 01:06 PM
Don't accuse a player of cheating. There will be drama.

Instead you need to firmly and politely say that that's not how that game mechanic works. You can do this alone with the player, with the rest of the group, or even mid game if you're willing to take a short break for an argument. If the player asks if he's being accused of cheating, well, he's the one who brought cheating into it and you can handle it from there.

I don't see cheating very often. I'm not sure I've ever seen any definitive cheating. Usually I see a lot of rules mistakes going in the player's favor. Oddly enough, the players who I've seen do that are the ones who don't have a good grasp of the game in the first place. Their characters are ineffective even with the cheating, so we usually just ignore it (like the sorcerer who thought his 18 charisma gave him a +5 bonus, but picked such crappy spells that it didn't matter if he had higher DCs). It seems like the players who are going to pay enough attention to the rules to manipulate them are the same players who will have a respect for the rules.

SoD
2008-04-09, 01:19 PM
I've had no experience with cheaters, I don't think. Fudging dice rolls, I do that every now and again to save a character, but before I started DMing (back in the old country), one guy I play with (the guy who introduced me to DnD)...I can't help but think he might pull a few strings with his characters. Whenever he rolls for stats, he always has at least one 18. And we do our character sheets at home. Alone. Where nobody else can see the roll. I've voiced that it seems a bit...suspicious to the other players, and also to him, he claims that that's the way it turns out, I claim to beleive him. But when all's said and done, that's the only thing, and it's not hugely major really.