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WorthingSon
2008-04-09, 04:10 PM
So I am helping DM in a campagin I'm in (so I don't get to make plot decisions, just RP my character). The DM and I have decided the party is too cocky, so we need to kill a PC or two, preferably with a monster that is " the correct" CR for them. The party has A DR focused melee Swordsage/Warblade, a basic half-orc barbarian, a factotum, a wizard/duskblade, a chaos monk, and a psion (me). All PC's are lvl 7. We are going to hit them with a Bloodhulk Crusher (MM4 p.21). Basically Huge undead with 280 HP and slam attack +24 hit for 3d6+24 damage. At CR8...

Does anyone else have any other good mobs that are "fair" to put the party against that will kill a few of them? We usually level one every other session, so feel free to pick something in the CR 10-15 range for future use if you want.

Cuddly
2008-04-09, 04:14 PM
Does the party have any ghost touch items? Because getting slain by shadows would be hilarious.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-09, 04:18 PM
Hydras are my weapon of choice. Depending on heads, they have a wide range o f CRs, so it'll keep for some time. But you see...

[spoiler]
Pyrohydra
Huge Magical Beast (Fire)

These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ½ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.

Fire attacks cannot prevent a pyrohydra’s stump from growing new heads (since a pyrohydra has immunity to fire), but 5 points of cold damage does.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm#pyrohydra
[spoiler]

3d6 per head... CR 9 for a eight headed one...

So 24d6 reflex DC 19 reflex for half. Repeat every 1d4 rounds. Add in the natural 10 foot reach (as per a Huge creature) and make sure you get close to the caster so he can't 5 step away. Eight attacks of opportunity is very very nice.

RTGoodman
2008-04-09, 04:24 PM
Try the second thing in this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a). There's a reason it's colloquially called "That Damned Crab." For your party, you'd have to advance it, or alternatively just search these boards for Fax's "Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Damned Crab" (which, by the time the thread died off, was basically a greater god).

Frosty
2008-04-09, 04:26 PM
how about taking this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301) and then toning it down a lot?

Or take the normal Damned Crab and tone it up?

EDIT: ninja'ed! :smallannoyed:

Lochar
2008-04-09, 04:27 PM
Hydras are my weapon of choice. Depending on heads, they have a wide range o f CRs, so it'll keep for some time. But you see...

3d6 per head... CR 9 for a eight headed one...

So 24d6 reflex DC 19 reflex for half. Repeat every 1d4 rounds. Add in the natural 10 foot reach (as per a Huge creature) and make sure you get close to the caster so he can't 5 step away. Eight attacks of opportunity is very very nice.

It's actually reflex 19 for half of each 3d6, if you want to actually hit a rogue with some good damage.

Or for the wizards, it requires a much better reflex save instead of a single good roll.

Squash Monster
2008-04-09, 05:26 PM
How about things with class levels?

A pair of well-optimized level 7 casters (CR 9 to your effective party level of 8.2) could really tear through them.

Try a Wizard who casts Black Tentacles and Solid Fog, and his Cleric companion who wades in with Divine Power and Freedom of Movement and hacks through the party one by one.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 05:40 PM
The problem with hydra breath is that they get to apply any resistance they might have once per head. Fire resistance 10 will negate most of any pyrohydra's breath weapon, and there are a number of ways they could have that much at level 7. Fire resistance 20 is guaranteed to take care of all of it.

tyckspoon
2008-04-09, 05:40 PM
Incorporeal undead are bastards if you're not ready for them; unless the group is either very very lucky or can put out a lot of force damage, a group of shadows and/or allips with enough numbers to be CR 7 should be able to kill at least one party member.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-09, 05:44 PM
The problem with hydra breath is that they get to apply any resistance they might have once per head. Fire resistance 10 will negate most of any pyrohydra's breath weapon, and there are a number of ways they could have that much at level 7. Fire resistance 20 is guaranteed to take care of all of it.

I don't believe the DM stated they had fire resistance. If they do, switch to a cyrohydra.



If you go with the caster combo, make sure you add in a Widened Grease and give the cleric 9 ranks in balance. You know, so they have to make two successful rolls to move 5 feet.

Creeps
2008-04-09, 06:11 PM
The Juggernaut. Man.

6 slams +21 melee for 2d6+10 damage. 10 foot reach.
100 HP
AC 29

DR 20/+2 SR **36**
Fast Healing 10 with construct immunities as well as immunity to acid, electricity AND fire.
Can cast a damned force cage/ wall of force AT WILL.
Imp grapple and can bloody smoosh anyone smaller than it for 10d10+20 damage (DC 29 reflex for half...with a -4 to the roll.)

All in a nice CR 11 package.

The only saving grace is that it's slow as dirt (10ft)...but that can be gotten around.

Ascension
2008-04-09, 06:13 PM
I don't quite get this... why do you feel you have to kill one or more of them? Couldn't you settle for just heavily wounding them? I understand that you want to remind them of their mortality, and that's all well and good, but really, showing them that you can kill them without actually doing it might be an even better way to reinforce the point. You suffer them to live only out of mercy.

Cuddly
2008-04-09, 06:13 PM
Use stuff with novel movement methods. Say, something with the stone warrior template.

Worira
2008-04-09, 06:14 PM
Umm... The Mafia?

Chronos
2008-04-09, 06:23 PM
I don't believe the DM stated they had fire resistance. If they do, switch to a cyrohydra.Then they just use their Energy Resistance spell on cold instead of fire. The factotum, wizard, and possibly psion all have access to Energy Resistance, and the Tome of Battle guy probably does, too. A hydra is big enough and un-subtle enough that it's not likely to catch them by surprise, and it's easily recognizable, which means they're likely to have a round or three to put up buffs before it closes with them.

Reinboom
2008-04-09, 07:47 PM
The problem with hydra breath is that they get to apply any resistance they might have once per head. Fire resistance 10 will negate most of any pyrohydra's breath weapon, and there are a number of ways they could have that much at level 7. Fire resistance 20 is guaranteed to take care of all of it.


Resistance To Energy

A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity.

Each resistance ability is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. It doesn’t matter whether the damage has a mundane or magical source.

When resistance completely negates the damage from an energy attack, the attack does not disrupt a spell. This resistance does not stack with the resistance that a spell might provide.

You may have misread energy resistance.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-09, 08:03 PM
Then they just use their Energy Resistance spell on cold instead of fire. The factotum, wizard, and possibly psion all have access to Energy Resistance, and the Tome of Battle guy probably does, too. A hydra is big enough and un-subtle enough that it's not likely to catch them by surprise, and it's easily recognizable, which means they're likely to have a round or three to put up buffs before it closes with them.

Have it burst out of a cage.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 08:04 PM
Consistent rules would be nice, wouldn't they? The Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) spell:
This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The subject gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points. The value of the energy resistance granted increases to 20 points at 7th level and to a maximum of 30 points at 11th level. The spell protects the recipient’s equipment as well.And Ring of Energy Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#energyResistance):
This reddish iron ring continually protects the wearer from damage from one type of energy—acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic (chosen by the creator of the item; determine randomly if found as part of a treasure hoard). Each time the wearer would normally take such damage, subtract the ring’s resistance value from the damage dealt.(emphasis mine in both cases)

Prometheus
2008-04-09, 08:08 PM
A Golem (in your case, Flesh at CR 7, or Clay at CR 10) can be a quite nice against the unprepared party. Immunity to magic pretty much neutralizes most of what spellcasters can do, and very few adventurers travel around with adamantine weapons. For bonus points, have a low level caster that constantly casts electric spell on or through a Flesh Golem to end slow effects and to heal a little hit points.

sonofzeal
2008-04-09, 08:13 PM
CR 7 you say?

The Whisperer in the Darkness
- Gibbering Mouther (CR 5)
- 4 extra HD (+1 CR), which advances its size to Large (+1 CR)
- non-elite stat array (+0 CR)

Total: CR 7


Size/Type: Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 8d8+72 (108 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (+1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+14
Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d2+4) or spittle +7 ranged touch (1d6 acid plus blindness)
Full Attack: 6 bites +10 melee (1d2+4) and spittle +7 ranged touch (1d6 acid plus blindness)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Gibbering (DC 19), spittle (DC 25), improved grab, blood drain, swallow whole, ground manipulation
Special Qualities: Amorphous, damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +7
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 16
Skills: Listen , Spot , Swim
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Ability Focus (Spittle), Ability Focus (Gibbering)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —



Rundown: Gibbering has been bumped from a minor annoyance to a serious threat, and you stand to Confuse a good chunk of the party, crippling their ability to respond when you Swallow Whole someone with your new improved Grapple check. Your weakness here is your lack of speed, but that can be partially bypassed by your Confusion and Spittle, which can easily ruin an otherwise orderly withdraw and leave one or two stranded, and also by your Ooze nature. The best idea is for this thing to come up through the ground or down through the roof, right into the middle of the PCs. Gibbering requires no action and Spittle is a Free/Swift action, so you can start using those immediately. Also note that Blood Drain doesn't require an action on your part either, and you can Swallow Whole multiple Medium sized PCs at the same time. If any escape they should be seriously hurting from the Blood Drain, and you can get your Improved Grab off the AoO from them moving away. Even if they all pass all the saves that first round (which is seriously unlikely with those DCs at that level), you're still getting several AoOs and stand a good chance of being able to Improved Grab someone and Blood Drain them into oblivion. Your own saves are pretty decent, and your HP will take quite a while to whittle through, but your primary defence is the sheer panic that will ensue after the Barbarian and Factotum get Confused, the Psion gets blinded, and the Wizard and Swordsage get engulfed. And, you're one of the few monsters for your CR that won't get slaughtered due to sheer action economy, since you get so much free stuff a turn.

FinalJustice
2008-04-09, 08:32 PM
OR, you can sit with your players and talk to them. 'Guys, I think you are getting too much confident of your powers/combos/chars, please, back off a little'. If you don't want to go the 'serious talk' route, make a BBEG out of their league kick their *sses and get good plot out of the defeat.

Going the 'I'm gonna beat the crap out of them with CR apropriate' is one of the worse routes you can take, if you overdo, it's an easy way to TPK, and maybe your precious ass kicker can get kicked, causing you more frustration and there you go find a better combo, and your players will try to keep up and begins the arms race

Talic
2008-04-09, 09:19 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050448&postcount=19

Take that. Remove all Class levels. Add 1 level of warrior. It's ECL 8. Go ahead, use normal non-elite array. And something with reach. Have it wail.

FlyMolo
2008-04-09, 09:21 PM
And by the way, the monsters that're way too hard for their CRs are dragons.

I heard somewhere that they have a secret template called awesome.

Douglas
2008-04-09, 09:22 PM
The Immoth from MMII. It is supposedly CR 9, but is strictly superior to a level 12 Sorcerer of a PHB race.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-09, 09:25 PM
There's an entire old thread listing the hardest monsters to defeat for their CR, as decided by the playground. Anyone have that bookmarked?

Thoughtbot360
2008-04-09, 09:26 PM
Does the party have any ghost touch items? Because getting slain by shadows would be hilarious.

a +1 magic weapon is all you need. Its not quite as good as a ghost touch, but it can handle a shadow. Along with magic missile!

Eldariel
2008-04-09, 09:40 PM
sonofzeal: How did you get those stats Standard Gibbering Mouther has 10/13/22/4/13/13; advancing it 4 HD and making it large shouldn't raise the Con by 6, Cha by 3 and Str by 8 by my math. I mean, by Standard Array, half of them are base 11, half base 10; your stats don't correspond to that. Also, are you saying the HD is directly added to the DC of all the special abilities? I thought the DCs are 10+stat+level as per normal.

I'm just trying to follow through to see the legality of the build, 'cause that thing is a beast for CR 7. Maybe I'm just missing something; wouldn't be the first and unfortunately not the last time either.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-09, 09:43 PM
He switched to the 13/12/11/10/9/8 array, enlarging increases Con and Str. And HD substitutes for level in some cases.

sonofzeal
2008-04-09, 09:49 PM
sonofzeal: How did you get those stats Standard Gibbering Mouther has 10/13/22/4/13/13; advancing it 4 HD and making it large shouldn't raise the Con by 6, Cha by 3 and Str by 8 by my math. I mean, by Standard Array, half of them are base 11, half base 10; your stats don't correspond to that. Also, are you saying the HD is directly added to the DC of all the special abilities? I thought the DCs are 10+stat+level as per normal.

I'm just trying to follow through to see the legality of the build, 'cause that thing is a beast for CR 7. Maybe I'm just missing something; wouldn't be the first and unfortunately not the last time either.
I think what you're missing is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), which accounts for the +8 Str and +4 Con. The rest is from the Non-elite array, unless my numbers are wrong. Also, the DC for most things improve as level/2, even fully heightened Sor/Wis spells follow that pattern. I know it's not explicitely stated in the text, but it's pretty easy to derive. Spittle is [HD/2 + Con mod], Gibbering is [HD/2 + Cha mod]. That's the only logical arrangement I can see that gives the right DCs for the MM entry, so they're what I used for mine.

Eldariel
2008-04-09, 10:00 PM
Hmm, good point. Let's see:

Base: Str +0, Dex +2, +12 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Large: Str +8, Dex +0, +16 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Your score: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 16
That seems off anyways; closest I can think of would assume nonelite array assigned as follows: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 13 (with +1 from 4 extra HD applied to Cha), leading to following modifiers overall:
Str: 18, Dex 11, Con 28, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 16

I suppose the prime issue is the lack of -2 to Dex from size increase. And yea, those DCs make sense.

Thrawn183
2008-04-09, 10:10 PM
Advance a gelatinous cube. If you have it in a trap of some kind, it will fall on a PC (auto engulfing one). The others have plenty of time to run away because gelatinous cubes aren't too fast and can't "see" all that far. I doubt the party will be able to do enough damage to kill the cube that quickly. Especially if it engulfs more than one of the melee'rs.

If you're really evil, add a monk level to a fiendish gelatinous cube for flurry of blows.

I think there is a way to add the sentry ooze template to a gelatinous cube if you want it to be smart. I'll have to talk to my friend. We were trying to come up with a gelatinous cube that could challenge our ECL 17 party at a mere CR 12 or 13. You can do.... fun.... things with gelatinous cubes.

sonofzeal
2008-04-09, 10:18 PM
Hmm, good point. Let's see:

Base: Str +0, Dex +2, +12 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Large: Str +8, Dex +0, +16 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Your score: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 16
That seems off anyways; closest I can think of would assume nonelite array assigned as follows: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 13 (with +1 from 4 extra HD applied to Cha), leading to following modifiers overall:
Str: 18, Dex 11, Con 28, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 16

I suppose the prime issue is the lack of -2 to Dex from size increase. And yea, those DCs make sense.
There's also that extra +1 ability score boost from hitting 8 HD. The one from hitting 4 HD is already incorporated into its base stats, but when advancing the creature you have to add it yourself. But the -2 Dex is there - I either put an 11 or that extra +1 there, bumping it from a 13 to a 14, then dropping it to 12 from the size increase.

I think the difference is that you're looking at the numbers as if it was a PC class, with even modifiers, whereas I'm just taking the straight numbers from the MM entry and adding the appropriate bonuses and penalities. Now, this was a long time ago, but here's my attempt to reverse engineer it....

Array: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 => +3, +2, +1, +0, -1, -2

Base: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 13
Large: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0
My Array: Str +0, Dex +1, Con +2, Int -1, Wis -2, Cha +3
Total: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 16

So apparently I dropped that extra stat point into Wis to bring it up to 12. Everything works out then.


And yeah, it is a beast, glad you like it! I designed this for a campaign I was running, the PCs were slaughtering everything but this thing nearly gave them a TPK. I found that the party could dominate anything if they had any chance to prepare and be organized, so this thing was deliberatly designed to cause mass panic and prevent that. Turned out a little TOO well, but c'est la vie. If you're feeling especially evil, give it faster speed and reach from going up in size, and give it one more HD for a free feat and extra hp/saves without actually increasing the CR. :belkar:

Sholos
2008-04-09, 10:29 PM
Fun with a gelatinous cube includes a 100 foot drop below an Anti-Magic Field with a Permanent Wall of Force on the other side of the gap. Have fun trying to avoid that!

Of course, I'm not sure on the CR of that trap, nor am I certain how you get the AMF to work properly. Oh well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-09, 10:41 PM
The AMF would have to be a permanent location item, according to Stronghold Builder's, half the cost of a Wondrous Item with it.

I.E. still ridiculously expensive.

Erebus
2008-04-10, 12:37 AM
I don't quite get this... why do you feel you have to kill one or more of them? Couldn't you settle for just heavily wounding them? I understand that you want to remind them of their mortality, and that's all well and good, but really, showing them that you can kill them without actually doing it might be an even better way to reinforce the point. You suffer them to live only out of mercy.

Totally agree there...Characters get over their head remind them that simple things are more than enough to get you killed...you dont have to throw in something to kill them...just wound them gravely as Ascension said...from what I saw you dont have some1 with trafinding...so a good old-fashion trap can do the work...or you can make it even worst if you really want to (by combining a trap with a mob) :P

I really loved the cube idea :smallcool:

Still!!!The idea is that you dont punish your players...you just remind them that there are things out there that can get you killed...

Khanderas
2008-04-10, 03:02 AM
Still!!!The idea is that you dont punish your players...you just remind them that there are things out there that can get you killed...
If the idea is to remind them they can be taken out, have a team of bounty hunters beat them down and turn them in to the authorities (false reasons or true, your pick). For good measure make the bounty hunter team monsterous races, like Bugbears, Hobgoblins, Drow and perhaps a kobold or three for trapmaking for ambushes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-10, 03:14 AM
Tucker's Kobolds.

Or Tomb of Horrors. Not in it's entirety, you understand, but as a source of ideas. :smallamused:

leperkhaun
2008-04-10, 05:13 AM
dont set out to kill the team...... if nothing else if the players find out you are killing their characters to one up them.....

Just increase the challange of the encounters. Remember that monster CRs dont fit every party.

Talic
2008-04-10, 06:56 AM
I'm gonna chime in against this, as well, for different reasons.

If you lose, the adventurers get more cocky.

If you win, they'll be determined to bring more busted jank to the table.

Erebus
2008-04-10, 07:01 AM
Thats why you make winning hard to come by and that makes more fun for them since its something that they actually managed to get through and nicer for you since the I-keel-you-all attitude tend to go down the drain...

Kol Korran
2008-04-10, 07:29 AM
first of all, i agree with whomever said you don't have to kill a player to get your point across, just deliver them a big shock.

a challange that might do this fairly easely is a ghost, with at least malevolance and draining touch special qualities:

incorporeal undead, so very hard to hit if unprepared. it can also go into walls, fly and maneuver quite efficiently.
it can have character levels, preferably caster levels as part of who it is. a druid/ cleric/ wizard/ sorcerer ghost might add power to their punch!
the malevolence is the real kicker- it takes over one of the characters! (preferably one with a low will save, or one that the party REALY relies on!). what is the party going to do then? the ghost is basically immune to most methods of attack.
the ghost's +4 to turn resistence makes it faily hard to turn away.
the draining touch ability gives the ghost a touch attack, and you drain the ability score that is most importent to the target (int/wis/cha of casters, physical of others), and you heal the ghost! it's an all win situation!
you can addd any of the other qualities just to add power- frightfull moan might get read of some of the group early on (the ghost can then fight the remaining ones, or sink into the ground and hunt the running away character, most probably on it's own), horrific appearance might get the party a bit at a disadvantage of the bat, but it doesn't do much otherwise. if i'm not mistaken there is a book called "ghost walk" or something like that, with additional powers.
lastly- if the group is used to just basting and crushing their way through every problem, and if the ghost proved to be a challange, it can always come back... (rejuvination) again, and again, and again, more and more prepared for the party's tactics... the party might need to think this through.


i suggest to make it tough, maybe close to killing one of the characters, but don't actually do so... it's a lousy way to make a point if you never even tried to approach the problem off play.

Erebus
2008-04-10, 07:39 AM
i suggest to make it tough, maybe close to killing one of the characters, but don't actually do so... it's a lousy way to make a point if you never even tried to approach the problem off play.

Agreed but you need first to think of very well the situation how the players play...do they co-operate with each other during combat? If yes then the probability of leaving one player down or more while the rest deafeat the monster is somehting that can be achieved easy..fi they do not fight organised and its every man for himself and with no tactics it will almost surely kill them all...or leave 1 alive...In any case you should talk it out first out of session and then not in concequent sessions the mob should appear...furthermore dont make any remarks like: "See??I told you you can be defeated so dont get cocky!" <===WRONG that will most probably infuriate them (is that even a word) they are people after all...and personally as a player I do not like my characters getting killed...but I learn if I do smthng stupid...

I hope I made some sense here :)

+1 to Ghost idea

mostlyharmful
2008-04-10, 08:09 AM
Build a rogue with maxed Move silently, hide, disguise, sleight of hand and Listen/spot. Give them a hat of disguise.

Then have them bump into PCx at the market, sleight of hand everything off their sheet. then have them do it to PCy. The players'll be hacked off enough to give chase.

Then procede to take them on a whirlwind adventure through slums, sewers, rooftops, taverns, marketplaces, whatever.... After all that have them find most of their gear stashed in a cubbyhole with some random crap. If they found it fun or challenging do it to them again.

If they have something overpowered or annoying have the thief already sold it by the time they catch up to someone hugely more powerful than the PCs (just don't do this with all their stuff).

Since they're low/mid level they shouldn't have access to all the Div effects in the book yet and it's easy enough to max a couple skills and use local knowledge to stay one step ahead. It even makes sense if they look well off or are getting a rep for being successful (they will have been if they're getting cocky).

It's easy enough to make it a reflavoured dungeon crawl with guardsmen and irate nobles or whatever standing in for wandering monsters and a whole slew of trapped tunnels/roofs that the thieves guild controls to throw pursuit off.

Hal
2008-04-10, 08:22 AM
What ways do these guys have to overcome damage resistance? I've found that simply putting something out there with DR they can't overcome is a pretty simple way of increasing the difficulty level. No silver weapons? Lycanthropes! (And so on . . .)

That being said . . .


OR, you can sit with your players and talk to them. 'Guys, I think you are getting too much confident of your powers/combos/chars, please, back off a little'. If you don't want to go the 'serious talk' route, make a BBEG out of their league kick their *sses and get good plot out of the defeat.

Going the 'I'm gonna beat the crap out of them with CR apropriate' is one of the worse routes you can take, if you overdo, it's an easy way to TPK, and maybe your precious ass kicker can get kicked, causing you more frustration and there you go find a better combo, and your players will try to keep up and begins the arms race

I have to agree with this statement. My players were tearing through all of my combat encounters, and I kept making things sillier and sillier in an attempt to actually challenge them once or twice. I ended up having them ambushed by a dragon in an environment where it should have dominated them, toying with them before he just took their shinies and ran. That was, until an NPC landed a critical hit with a vorpal sword I'd accidentally allowed into his hands.

(In my defense, it was an undead-centric campaign. I didn't expect this to happen!)

What should have been the toughest fight they'd had so far lasted five minutes. So, yeah. Be careful, because you could just end up frustrating yourself.

ashmanonar
2008-04-10, 08:41 AM
Well, it certainly wasn't the mad wizard we faced last night.

Wizard with Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, and that dropped a wall of force in the first round of combat--

VS

A cleric with purge invisibility prepared, a wizard with "Enlarge person"s prepared, and a Power Attacking Leap Attacking Barb/Fighter/Fighterlike prestige class/Cleric with a great big magical Adamantine Greataxe, enlarged.

Heh. I'm surprised I didn't take him down in one round. I think I rolled min damage, that's probably why. (I just realized I didn't even use the enlarged damage. Stupid.) Nobody else even got to him to touch him.

Crimson Avenger
2008-04-10, 09:51 AM
A decent way to shame a party is to hand them their be-hinds with a lower level character, such as a well thought out Sor or at higher levels, my personal favorite: Archers

Scout 6 or Rng 6/ Order of Bow 10

You can use the bonus feats to get into the PrC. Spend the feats to get Manyshot as early as possible. Spend the feats to get Fell Shot (XPH). Now you can fire multiple arrows as a standard action as a ranged touch attack that also does d8's of precission damage. Then go with either the Shot on the Run tree, or Greater Manyshot. At 16th or 17th level (depending on build) you are firing four arrows as a standard action at a -8, but can blow your focus to make them all touch attacks. And with Greater Manyshot you can fire them at four different targets, AND add all of your precission damage to each arrow, AND each arrow can score it's own critical hit. Then go crazy with Strongarm Bracers and a large Greatbow, and the Consumptive enhancement.

Something like 2d8+7 (or more)+5d8 (OotB)+1d8 (living targets)+2d6 (skirmish)

Four arrows that average 50 points of damage as touch attacks, at 60 ft. You should be able to get upwards of a +20 to your ranged touch attack roll even with the -8. That'll put a crimp in anyones day.

With Shot on the Run you can duck in and out of total cover, making it obnoxiously had for the spellcasters to retaliate. Always target the healer first, because every intelligent foe know that no cleric = dead party, and watch them scurry for cover. The best part? there is no Concentration check to avoid losing an arrow, so even when they ready actions for him, they are still taking absolutely massive damage every round.


Perhaps I've had one to many encounters with high level rampaging PC's?

Crimson Avenger
2008-04-10, 10:01 AM
But it's much simpler to build a Cleric of 9th level that takes DMM: Quicken and DMM: Twin Spell, and extra turning a couple of times.

In the first round of combat you throw out FOUR Moonbolts, targeting two different characters with all four bolts, thereby almost insuring that someone is incapacitated before combat even begins. 3d4/3d4/3d4/3d4 STR damage F save for half. That's an average of 15 pts of damage if they make every save.

Course, you blow through 15 turn attempts as your first action, but that might be worth seeing the Arcane Caster, and one other party member on the ground unable to move. Can we say verbal only spells.

Talic
2008-04-10, 10:13 AM
A decent way to shame a party is to hand them their be-hinds with a lower level character, such as a well thought out Sor or at higher levels, my personal favorite: Archers

Scout 6 or Rng 6/ Order of Bow 10

You can use the bonus feats to get into the PrC. Spend the feats to get Manyshot as early as possible. Spend the feats to get Fell Shot (XPH). Now you can fire multiple arrows as a standard action as a ranged touch attack that also does d8's of precission damage. Then go with either the Shot on the Run tree, or Greater Manyshot. At 16th or 17th level (depending on build) you are firing four arrows as a standard action at a -8, but can blow your focus to make them all touch attacks. And with Greater Manyshot you can fire them at four different targets, AND add all of your precission damage to each arrow, AND each arrow can score it's own critical hit. Then go crazy with Strongarm Bracers and a large Greatbow, and the Consumptive enhancement.

Something like 2d8+7 (or more)+5d8 (OotB)+1d8 (living targets)+2d6 (skirmish)

Four arrows that average 50 points of damage as touch attacks, at 60 ft. You should be able to get upwards of a +20 to your ranged touch attack roll even with the -8. That'll put a crimp in anyones day.

With Shot on the Run you can duck in and out of total cover, making it obnoxiously had for the spellcasters to retaliate. Always target the healer first, because every intelligent foe know that no cleric = dead party, and watch them scurry for cover. The best part? there is no Concentration check to avoid losing an arrow, so even when they ready actions for him, they are still taking absolutely massive damage every round.


Perhaps I've had one to many encounters with high level rampaging PC's?

Hmm, at the level you'd have greater manyshot, we're talking the following:

you hit the cleric for around 200, he drops, ok. Wizard drops wind walls. for party, then goes invisible.

Step 2, usually involves you making a saving throw and dying.

Yes, massive attacks from surprise can drop 1 party member. However, even without wind wall. Wizard goes invisible. Party goes full defensive. rogue hides and begins scouting, fighter uses whatever defensive items he has, Wizard readies an action for the shot.

Archer makes save or drops again.

Now considering cleric HP, it's possible he survives (assuming, at level 16, a +5 con mod is possible, then cleric should have over 160 hp.) One miss = cleris's ok enough to heal.

Also, if cleric has heavy fort, then precision damage goes away, dropping the arrows to a much less threatening 20 or so damage each.

elliott20
2008-04-10, 10:17 AM
Or you can try one those oldie but goodie monster builds. This one is from back in the day on 3rdedition.org back when 3E was still new.

Back then it was called "Power Munchkin's Anti-Magic Troll", or PMAMT for short. the concept is simple. You get a troll, give it an anti-magic amulet (either bury it in it's flesh or just make it a necklace or something. Then top it off by giving the troll adamantite armor and an adamantite large greatsword.

A troll starts off as a CR 5 creature. Giving it the anti-magic amulet and the gear probably kicks it up a little, but even then you should still have a bit of room to give the troll a couple of levels in some combat class. The old school choice was barbarian because it gave the troll a nice little umph to it.

Now a days depending upon how people interpret how ToB maneuvers work in AM fields, you could potentially swap that out for Warblade and make him wreck the party.

Keep in mind, this thing is not impossible to kill. But it's a pretty nifty little encounter that can cause the players a lot of problems. Put him in a cave with lots of enclosed spaces so it forces the players to engage it in close hand combat.

its_all_ogre
2008-04-10, 10:34 AM
any of the following:
pack of dire wolves (trip attacks) led by a mated pair of half dragon dire wolves (whatever type is most appropriate for your group)
cryo hydra half red dragon: now immune to fire and cold and can fly. chuck another template on if you want:phrenic could be fun!
collosal vermin, preferably scorpions. adding templates is nasty but fun!

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-10, 11:14 AM
Do'Ellin the Young in the Bonemire; he spawns as part of the Draco Mortuus vos Liberatio quest. He is 67^^^ but he is seriously underconned. He killed me (73 Inquisitor) and my teammate (75 Warlock) a couple times before we gave up. His knockback is just so harsh.. we are gonna need a full group to fight him; need a 'zerker or Guardian to tank him.

/MoBs are an MMO term for a reason.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_%28computer_gaming%29)

Seriously though...

A broken monster in a box:

Step 1: Pick an animal (something awesome).
Step 2: Apply the Paragon Template to said animal.
Step 3: Use the Paragon Animal as part of the Lycanthrope Template.
Step 4: Apply the Paragon-Lycanthrope template to (anything).
Step 5: Kill.

Quick and dirty sample monster using the above method:

Ogre (CR3; 4HD) + Lycanthrope [Were-Tyrannosaur] (+6CR; +18 HD +alot STR & CON) + Paragon (+0 CR; Free because we added it to the animal not the final product; adds a ton of abilities, +15 to all stats +tons to hit and damage) = CR 9 creature with the effective hitting power of a CR 24

Damage for his bite is: 3d6+53 and that assumes a base 11 {before mods} STR.

You can do some truly, truly, epic and disturbing things.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-10, 11:20 AM
Now a days depending upon how people interpret how ToB maneuvers work in AM fields, you could potentially swap that out for Warblade and make him wreck the party.

:smallconfused: Does anyone contest that they do work in an AMF?


Keep in mind, this thing is not impossible to kill. But it's a pretty nifty little encounter that can cause the players a lot of problems. Put him in a cave with lots of enclosed spaces so it forces the players to engage it in close hand combat.

Problem is when the party get hold of such an amulet, from killing said troll.

BadJuJu
2008-04-10, 11:25 AM
A Golem (in your case, Flesh at CR 7, or Clay at CR 10) can be a quite nice against the unprepared party. Immunity to magic pretty much neutralizes most of what spellcasters can do, and very few adventurers travel around with adamantine weapons. For bonus points, have a low level caster that constantly casts electric spell on or through a Flesh Golem to end slow effects and to heal a little hit points.

A Flesh Golem and as many Shocker Lizards as you can get.

lord_khaine
2008-04-10, 11:28 AM
Quote:
Keep in mind, this thing is not impossible to kill. But it's a pretty nifty little encounter that can cause the players a lot of problems. Put him in a cave with lots of enclosed spaces so it forces the players to engage it in close hand combat.

Problem is when the party get hold of such an amulet, from killing said troll.


and since the entire party should either be able to engage the troll in melee, or in the case of the psion blast it apart at range with crystal shards.

considering the troll abuses the magic item creation rules in a very broken way, then i dont think he is that tough.

elliott20
2008-04-10, 11:31 AM
well, it's an oldie rather than a classic for a reason, I guess.

Anteros
2008-04-10, 12:13 PM
I don't get the people who say "no don't kill them!" It's a game. And most games aren't fun if there is no challenge involved. Taking your group aside and asking them to tone it down is basically the equivalent of telling them that you are purposely avoiding trying to kill them. Besides, by then they should be able to get a rez if they really want it.

I bit of advice though. Drop some subtle hints that this monster will probably kill a few of them and give them a chance to avoid it. If they are really as overconfident as you are worried about they will attack it anyway, and get owned. This will probably do more to tone down the cockiness than a random encounter that is just arbitrarily dangerous, as the latter feels more like DM fiat to the players.

In short, don't punish the players for cockiness, have them punish themselves.

ryuteki
2008-04-10, 12:21 PM
I don't recall the CR of it for sure, but I think it is 10... Greenvise. If your party doesn't have ready access to Freedom of Movement or a VERY high base movement, this plant will OWN your party. Wait until they get about 15-20 feet away from it, then trigger it's solid acid fog (2/day). Anyone with less than 50' base move will need a full action to move 5', and take damage the whole time.

WorthingSon
2008-04-10, 01:23 PM
Thanks for all the ideas guys. I realize that I left out the fact that the party was told at the start of the campaign to think of other characters to play, because they WOULD die at some point, unless they play really really smart. We actually had a PC almost kill to others in the first session, but the PvP has stopped since then. I think part of what the DM had in mind was something that they would feel they should be able to beat, like a melee beast since they have a fair amount of melee.

Keld Denar
2008-04-10, 06:25 PM
Dread Wraiths....I just killed a PC in a party of 8-10s with a pair last night. Not even an EL high enough above the APL to pose a decent threat, but managed to kill one bad enough he needed a Resurection instead of just a raise dead.

Beholders, if properly equipped. Lords of Madness has some gear and feats to make your beholders to bad things to people who are then helpless against them.

Topiary Guardians. Plants that fight back when you try to prune them. And they are nasty depending on what animal you base them off of. Boars and Octopus are particularly nasty.

Cadavar Collectors covered in Shocker Lizards and Shardesteel Golems surrounded by undead. Both uncomfortable encounters.

Thrawn183
2008-04-10, 08:40 PM
Alright, so I went ahead and advanced the Gelatinous Cube as far as it will go (24 HD). Spoilered to avoid god of players dropping rocks on me. I'm only listing the changes that you need to make. I'm not rewriting the entire thing.

Fully Advanced Gelatinous Cube, CR 9

HP 24d10+288 (420)
Huge space/reach(15ft./10ft)
AC 6 (-2 size, -5 dex, +3 natural)
BAB+18, Grapple+30
Attack: slam +20
Damage: 1d8+4 + 1d6 acid
Str 18, Con 35
Fort+20, Ref+3, Will+3
Engulf: DC 27 Reflex
Paralysis: DC 34 Fortitude

If I made any mistakes, feel free to point them out. All stat boosts went to Con.

PS. This should be one fun fight. The thing is slow and with limited vision if they just run away they should be fine. Pathetic AC means power attack goodness. They try and fight the thing in melee and its gonna take some lucky rolls if they want to survive. A smart party can take this thing on easy with effects like slow. Hopefully your party is smart.

Actually, I'm officially opening this up for contribution. How would your characters handle running into something like this? Especially in some kind of closed space... oh you know, like a dungeon where this thing would be found in the first place.

I may see if I can make a significantly higher CR version of this later. Currently thinking fiendish to make it intelligent and then warhulk. Any suggestions?

Prometheus
2008-04-10, 10:25 PM
I've thrown an above-CR Gelatinous Cube at my players to see if they are smart, they are. They keep their distance and attack it. The only problem would be alerting other monsters if they can't kill it quick enough, or if it ever engulfs one that needs independent help out.

Don't forget the Ooze-riding amulet from Arms & Equipment!

Keld Denar
2008-04-10, 11:07 PM
Alright, so I went ahead and advanced the Gelatinous Cube as far as it will go (24 HD). Spoilered to avoid god of players dropping rocks on me. I'm only listing the changes that you need to make. I'm not rewriting the entire thing.

Fully Advanced Gelatinous Cube, CR 9

HP 24d10+288 (420)
Huge space/reach(15ft./10ft)
AC 6 (-2 size, -5 dex, +3 natural)
BAB+18, Grapple+30
Attack: slam +20
Damage: 1d8+4 + 1d6 acid
Str 18, Con 35
Fort+20, Ref+3, Will+3
Engulf: DC 27 Reflex
Paralysis: DC 34 Fortitude


I may see if I can make a significantly higher CR version of this later. Currently thinking fiendish to make it intelligent and then warhulk. Any suggestions?

Dude, 1/2 Fiend would annihilate apporpriate EL parties. Fiendish gives a bunch of SLAs depending on HD. One of the ones that comes with higher HD is Blasphemy. Blasphemy has a CL dependant effect, and since your ooze has a CL of 24, it'll autokill anyone in the area that is level 14 or lower, and auto paralyze anyone level 19 or lower for a few minutes where it can munch on them at leisure. Thats just silly stupid.

If you think that's bad....check out a fully advance colossal centipede. These buggers have around 30 HD. Tack on 1/2 Fiend to that puppy and once a day you can autoparalyze Elminster or Mordenkainen with a stupid centipede....

Thrawn183
2008-04-11, 07:29 AM
Well, sure. I've just always found stuff like that to be a little cheesy. Yeah, its a little hypocritical but what can I say?

When I design encounters by advancing monsters and such, I usually like to have a little extra flair for fun. Often it ends up meaning class levels.

Keld Denar
2008-04-11, 08:07 AM
Tack a couple of Scout levels on your standard vanillia Dread Wraith and add all that tasty skirmish damage on as negative energy touch. Or even rogue levels. While inside of an object, the DW has full cover, which allows it to make hide checks. Then it can spring attack out with its ungodly move silently check to sneak attack a target for big bonus damage.

Oh...my...god...like, 2 levels of Unarmed variant Swordsage on a Dread Wraith. They already have 16 HD, so that'd start him right off with an IL of 9 on the first level. Take some nasty mobility maneuvers to add to your already insane run around abilities and to compliment your already amazing stats.....that would maul a party. You'd end up with a party of Wraiths running around angry with the world and everything in it.

--------------

Another thing thats nasty is the Cadavar Collector. They advance nicely up a couple HD to get the size increase to huge. Then, mount a couple of 12 Volt batteries...I mean Shocker Lizards...under the hood and watch that puppy go to town. Granted, FoM would protect someone from the 2 worst attacks (breath and grab), but its still a permahasted self healing beat stick.

Triaxx
2008-04-11, 08:33 AM
Here's something I adapted from a book, that should give them a bit of a fight.

Creeper
Huge/Magical Beast
HD 6d10+5 (120+30)
Speed 60 ft. (12 squares)
Init: -1
AC 20; touch 20; flat-footed 19
(12 AC, 8 NA)
BAB +7; Grp +16
Attack Claw (Bludgeoning) +7 [Melee]
(2d4, 19-20/x2)
Full-Attack Full attack +7/+2 (2d4, 19-20/x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Slam
Special Qualities Thick skin
Saves Fort +33 Ref +29 Will -1
Abilities Str 25, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 6, Cha 3
Skills Tumble
Feats Power Attack, Cleave
Environment Ruins
Organization Solitary, Pair 2, Troupe 6-10
Challenge Rating 9
Treasure 1200 gold
Alignment Always N
Advancement by HD
Level Adjustment +4

Slam (Ex): As part of a full attack a Creeper may throw itself against a target for 2d6 damage. A creeper may use it's Slam attack to initiate a Grapple.

Thick Skin (Su): The outer hide of a creeper is sufficiently thick so as to prevent arrows from doing damage, except with critical hits, and completely negates slings.

NephandiMan
2008-04-11, 08:57 AM
Try the second thing in this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a). There's a reason it's colloquially called "That Damned Crab." For your party, you'd have to advance it, or alternatively just search these boards for Fax's "Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Damned Crab" (which, by the time the thread died off, was basically a greater god).

*whistles in awe*

It doesn't even have a weak point that you can attack for massive damage.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-11, 09:12 AM
Well, sure. I've just always found stuff like that to be a little cheesy. Yeah, its a little hypocritical but what can I say?

When I design encounters by advancing monsters and such, I usually like to have a little extra flair for fun. Often it ends up meaning class levels.

Class Levels are one of the (ch)easier ways to overpower a monster; if done right.

The important bit is this caveat:


Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

So, for fun you take something that is a godless killing machine in melee.

Let's say...

An Athach (CR8 14HD) we will give him the Elite Array (at no extra cost, since we are giving him class levels) and then give him 14 levels of Cleric (+7CR +14 HD). So, now you have a CR 15 creature, with 28 HD and Cleric CL of 14. Not exactly game breaking, but seriously overpowered for the CR.

All the standard CoDzilla tricks apply for Mister, no Strike that, Reverend Athach, except when he Divine Power, Righteous Mights himself his power increase in an even more exponential fashion than a standard race CoDzilla. Divine Power is going to give him an effective BAB of 28; he is already Huge, so the Size Increase makes him even bigger (not necessarily good or bad, it is situational); Add in other CON enhancements, and he is getting tremendous amounts of HP. Add 1 more cleric level, bumping his CR to 16 and he has access to 8th level spells.

On almost any given day, this Athach will beat an even level CoDzilla and has a pretty good shot at winning against an appropriate party (that is heavily optimized I mean).

Edit: After reading the OP, here is a CR 7 monster.

DROLTHQQUA
Large Dragon (Earth, Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 7d10+49 (87 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 20 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 23 (+14 natural, -1 size), touch 9, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+23
Attack: Claw +18 melee (1d6+14 plus 2d6 fire)
Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (1d6+14 plus 2d6 fire), bite +16 melee (1d8+7 plus 2d6 fire) and slam +16 melee (1d8+7 plus 2d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Heat, burn, breath weapon
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, immunity to fire, tremorsense 60 ft., vulnerability to cold, immunity to cold, immunity to sleep, paralysis and fear, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 11, Con 25, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +11, Move Silently +14, Survival +11, Hide +9, Spot +6
Feats: Improved Initiative, Track, Multiattack
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil


A drolthqqua is about 2 foot in diameter and 8 to 10 feet long. It weighs about 1600 pounds.

COMBAT
When a drolthqqua is disturbed, its first instinct is to attack. Its favored tactic is to spring directly at a foe, either by bursting out of the rock or by coiling up its body and launching itself like a spring. (Treat this as a charge, even though the drolthqqua does not need to move 10 feet before attacking.)

Heat (Ex): Merely touching or being touched by a drolthqqua automatically deals 2d6 fire damage.

Burn (Ex): When a drolthqqua hits with its slam attack, the opponent must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save or catch fire. The save DC is Constitution-based. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds if not extinguished sooner. A burning creature can use a full-round action to put out the flame.

Breath Weapon (Su): 30 ft. Cone of Cold 6d8 damage 1/day (Reflex DC 20 for half)

That's a Thoqqua advanced to 7 HD with Half Dragon and Lolth touched templates added.

Keld Denar
2008-04-11, 09:42 AM
This can get really nasty with a few frontloaded classes and PrC. Lots of monsters have really high Cha, so tacking on a couple levels of Marshall from MH or Blackguard would do stupid things based on that stat. For a monster with high Wis, a single level of monk gives sizeable bonuses for minimal CR increase, not to mention the fact that Stunning Fists save DC is partially based on HD.

Take a looksie at Elemental Mages in MM IV. They have an ability that allows them to share saves with nearby elemental mages. Now give them all a level in Pious Templars of Obad Hai and 2+ levels of rogue. Now make a leader with a really high Cha and 2+ levels in Blackguard and a level in Marshal for Motivate Dex. You now have a high powered hit squad of large giants that are almost impervious to magic and strike at lightning speed. Probably a tough encounter for even a well prepared party of appropriate EL.

Typewriter
2008-04-14, 08:52 AM
I'm the DM in said campaign, and wanted to thank everyone for their input. And for the record I wasn't specifically aiming to kill one. I was simply trying to put a challenge out there in which death was possible, but success wouldn't mean super duper XP.

I was running them through a pre-built dungeon and the CR for this encounter was 10. They demolished it. I would have been fine with someone dying, but the main goal was to present the threat. For instance: In the precursor to the doom boss I got from this thread one player died because we're using the critical hit/fumble chart from dragon compendium, and they couldn't beat the Fort 30 or die. In the boss I got from this thread the players defeated it (but almost had one or two of them eat dirt).

This wasn't a "YOU WILL DIE". It was simply a challenge appropriate, with my hopes being that they calm down a little bit afterwords.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-14, 09:23 AM
..... In the boss I got from this thread the players defeated it (but almost had one or two of them eat dirt).

Which was it? Just curious. :smallbiggrin: