Crimson Mantle and Xykon's crown (SoD spoilers and speculation)

[Nerdanel]

The Crimson Mantle and Xykon's crown are two interesting items. Here I try to gather what we can know or guess about them.

The Crimson Mantle

It is a major artifact. Its most powerful ability is to give its wearer knowledge of the epic spell to control one of the gates. It also gives its wearer a heavy dose of backstory when first worn, working knowledge of the powers of the Crimson Mantle, and may try to make its wearer Lawful Evil to match the Dark One's alignment. (I think Redcloak may have been Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good for a few pages before he donned the Mantle.) Based on Redcloak's behavior, there is likely to be also some sort of compulsion effect to continue with the Plan.

I think the Crimson Mantle gives a spell-like ability to use Disintegrate 1/day. Redcloak did that to the charging paladin's horse and used Shatter (the Destruction 1/day domain power - not due to the Crimson Mantle) against the paladin. When Right-Eye asks about that, Redcloak says that he did something he can't do again until the next day.

Another potential spell-like ability might be Slay Living 1/day. Redcloak's mentor seems to cast that before he dies, so he would have expended it for Redcloak. The mentor would have to have been ninth level to cast the spell normally and I'm not sure he really was that tough. He dies awfully quickly to what seems to be a bunch of level 1 paladins, who weren't even using their smites, and at one point appears to cast Burning Hands, a level 1 spell from the Fire domain instead of something more powerful. Or maybe he just prepared a bad selection of spells for the day...

Someone suggested that the Crimson Mantle makes its wearer always make a saving throw. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) I think that's a good suggestion considering that Redcloak entered a not-strictly-necessary save-or-die competition without fear and never once asked if a particular die roll would save.

A possible additional power of the Mantle is being able to make any type of undead found in a rulebook. Redcloak knows how to make a lich, but more importantly, a huecuva is supposed to a cleric that was unfaithful to its god and therefore condemned to eternal unlife. The implication is that you can't just make them like zombies. This suggests something out of ordinary, such as a major artifact.

Xykon's Crown

Xykon's crown radiates evil. I think it also has a good chance to be a major artifact. At least, it must have been somewhat special to be put into a museum. Xykon's "This crown's not magic" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) could be taken to Xykon being unaware of his greatest treasure. On the other hand, I think it's more likely Xykon really meant that "No, this crown isn't a mere lousy magic item; it's an artifact" but was too sneaky to say it out loud. Xykon doesn't always give give straight answers about his resources. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)

The only thing that is almost certain about the crown's abilities is that it increases the wearer's charisma. Xykon uses it to pick up chicks in SoD.

Also: "Badass... REALLY badass."

But "badass" is such a nebulous concept. I think there's a good chance that the crown gives protection from positive energy, and when Xykon in SoD claimed his ring had that power, he was only misleading Redcloak in case he decided to turn on him. At least the ring from Xykon's finger that Vaarsuvius later got was an ordinary ring of wizardry.

[factotum]

I don't see why Xykon would bother to lie about the crown, and it's possible for something to gain an aura of evil just by being associated with an evil being for long enough in D&D--admittedly, such an aura doesn't usually last anything like as long as the one on Xykon's crown did. Anyway, I think it's far easier to assume the crown is just a crown that Xykon liked the look of.

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to the original RC, we don't know what level the Paladins were (I thought he looked like he took quite a lot of damage). Also, RC used Smite, which is gained from the Destruction Domain (that ability can only be used once/day), on the Paladin rather then Shatter. Also, regarding saves, those spells targeted Fortitude or Will, which are both strong saves for Clerics anyway (RC appears to have a +5 Wis mod, but we don;t have any evidence regarding his Con).

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

indeed... and why does Xykon need an aura of evil? His a booping LICH! Don't they have aura's of evil allready? If there are game rules for that aura or not, a Lich does not need an item to appear powerfully evil... I mean, becoming a Lich, isn't that what all necromancers dream about?

In warhammer (both roleplay and battles) the Lich is the pinnacle of necromancy, a necromancer who has succesfully cheated death and full mastery of one of the darkest magics in the universe...

[Phase]

Lets not forget that the Crimson Mantle prolongs each age category. Redcloak is old, man, but he doesn't look it.

[Remirach]

Lets not forget that the Crimson Mantle prolongs each age category. Redcloak is old, man, but he doesn't look it.

Late 40s/early 50s. (Assuming he was somewhere between 14-17 at the time of the Paladin attack on Goblin Hills.) Advanced age for a goblin, but not all that old.

[Phase]

Late 40s/early 50s. (Assuming he was somewhere between 14-17 at the time of the Paladin attack on Goblin Hills.) Advanced age for a goblin, but not all that old.

And yet, goblins age much faster. Right-eye (Redcloak's YOUNGER) was entering elder at the end of SoD, Redcloak hardly aged.

@V Cthulhu!

[Remirach]

And yet, goblins age much faster. Right-eye (Redcloak's YOUNGER) was entering elder at the end of SoD, Redcloak hardly aged.

Oh, yeah, I get that, actually -- they make gallows humor out of the "ancient at fifty" fate goblins face. I just thought I'd point out that, seeing as we're mostly all human here on the board (...I think??) RC is considered by our standards on the upper side of middle-aged, not really old.

XYKON, now, is OLD.

BTW.... what does the "C" in your sig pic stand for?

[Vargtass]

Moreover, RC explains to Righteye at the time that the Mantle does, in fact, grant prolonged life to its bearer.

[Remirach]

Moreover, RC explains to Righteye at the time that the Mantle does, in fact, grant prolonged life to its bearer.
They say it "slows down" aging but don't say by how much... but Ridizak is 13/14 and says Redcloak looks "his age" 31 years after RC's initiation as the Dark One's top cleric.

How long could a Bearer of the Crimson Mantle hold out before succumbing to old age?

[Callista]

We don't know if it even extends the lifespan, or just works like the "ageless" abilities where you take the bonuses but not the negatives of advancing an age category, stay young-looking and strong, but die when your time's up anyway.

[Nerdanel]

And then there's the factor that not everyone would start wearing the Crimson Mantle at the same age. Someone could have been #2 until elderhood before the position of the High Priest came available.

I think Xykon doesn't care one bit about the (additional) aura of evil. What he does care is the bonus to charisma, his casting stat, especially if the bonus is something other than "enhancement" so that it stacks with items that give such bonuses. There's no real evidence for this, but I think Xykon's cloak has a good chance of being a cloak of charisma which is a standard magic item that gives an enhancement bonus to charisma. He didn't have a cloak when he started out but picked it at some point before his old age. In any case, Xykon would have been tremendously dumb or unlucky if he didn't have at least one charisma-boosting item at his level.

Then there's the possibility of additional powers. I personally think the mystery of the positive energy ring of wizardry suggests that Xykon lied about the source of his resistance. And him claiming to have bought the ring that shielded him on EBay sounds very similar to the definite lie he told to Tsukiko about having found Dorukan's headband among his Wheetos. I think in both cases, Xykon was reticient with information he thought an ally didn't need to know. Even if betrayal is currently unlikely, they're all Evil and a bit of caution won't do any harm.

[FujinAkari]

Used Shatter (the Destruction 1/day domain power - not due to the Crimson Mantle) against the paladin. When Right-Eye asks about that, Redcloak says that he did something he can't do again until the next day.

I think its doubtful that Redcloak was 3rd level at this point in the story. He had just been accepted as an initiate to the Dark One's clergy... which means even claiming he'd gained 1st level spells is a stretch...

[Nerdanel]

I'm shorry, I meant Smite (which is the real name of the domain power of Destruction, and according to SoD has a skull-shattering special effect which explains why I confused the two).:smallredface:

The idea is that Redcloak had zero prepared spells for the day, as he became a level 1 and he wouldn't get to pray for spells until dusk/midnight/whenever the clerics of the Dark One get their spells. However, he would still have his domain powers: 1/day Smite from Destruction, and +1 to the caster level of all Law spells (useless in this case since he didn't have currently any) from Law. This in addition to any powers from the Crimson Mantle.

[hamishspence]

actually, it was Acolyte, and with the words "You're a very talented young cleric and she'd be a fool to turn you down" he might not be completely powerless. Maybe, at end of ritual, he had been given all his clerical spells and domain powers, making him a fully prepared first level character?

Given that having destruction domain makes sense, especially given he later casts disintegrate, its simpler to assume its a normal Destruction smite, than to speculate about powers of the mantle.

[Nerdanel]

No, no, no - the whole point was that it was a normal Destruction smite and the Disintegrate was left as a Crimson Mantle power.

Redcloak had no healing spells prepared for that day. (As much a fact as a negative can be proved. You'd need to invent elaborate conspiracy theories to argue otherwise.) Moreover, neither did Redcloak have much in the way of combat spells. If you think he was high enough level to cast Disintegrate (level 7 spell!) on his own, he'd have an awful lot of spells and all of the other goblin clerics would have been even more powerful! In that case, they should have mopped the floor with the paladins if they had had an ounce of common sense with their spell selection. Even if I try to INTENTIONALLY to pick up as bad a spell selection for a level 13 Redcloak as possible (Protection from Chaos, Magic Circle against Chaos, Bless Water, Bless Water, Bless Water, etc.) I can't avoid picking either Harm or Hold Monster for his sixth level domain slot.

Therefore I think Redcloak didn't cast Disintegrate with his own clerical power.

EDIT TO ADD - I just remembered the scene near the end of SoD where Redcloak mentions to Right-eye that he (Redcloak) first learned to cast 7th level spells "last year". This "last year" is far in the future at the time the paladins massacre Redcloak's village. Therefore, Redcloak couldn't have cast Disintegrate on his own. He would have had to activate a powerful magic item.

Disintegrate 1/day is a spell-like ability granted by the Crimson Mantle. I consider it now proven.

[hamishspence]

it wasn't disintegrate. Don't know what it was, but not that. Maybe Finger of Death sorry that should be slay living, a 5th level spell he does uses later, or some other damage spell. Why? Cos disintegrate uses a very narrow green beam, which we see later in the book. A paladins horse ALWAYS disappears when slain: its not a symptom of disintegrate spells.

it is possible that the Giant forgot that prequels should use the 3rd ed rules, which OtOoPCs said.

While we do not see him touching the horse, he is very close. and the Slay Living pick doesn't show him touching the hobgoblin he thiks is supreme leader, either. An idiosyncacy in the artwork?

[Chronos]

Redcloak's mentor was definitely fairly high level. First of all, the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is the High Priest of the Dark One, and High Priests are generally in their teens at least. Redcloak's taking up the Crimson Mantle was due to desparation: The Bearer should ordinarily be more powerful. Second, those paladins were not first level. Most of them had their special mounts, so they were at least fifth, possibly higher. And there were an awful lot of them, and the High Priest took down several of them before they overwhelmed him.

So anything the previous Bearer did, we can just as easily attribute to his own spell slots as to the Mantle.

[SPoD]

Disintegrate 1/day is a spell-like ability granted by the Crimson Mantle. I consider it now proven.

Well, consider it unproven, because your entire argument is based on a flawed assumption--namely, that Disintegrate was cast AT ALL.

Because he didn't Disintegrate the horse. The horse is a summoned creature because it is a paladin's mount. ANY spell that does enough damage to kill it would cause it to return to the Celestial Realm, which it does with a "poof!"

Compare Redcloak's actual Disintegrate spell against Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html), or V's against the black dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html):
1.) Narrow straight beam
2.) Illuminates the skeleton of the target
3.) Leaves a smoking pile of ashes if it kills you

Now look at Redcloak killing the paladin's horse:
1.) Standard ragged magical effect, not narrow straight beam
2.) Does not illuminate skeleton of target, just shows X's in eyes
3.) Causes horse to disappear with a "poof!" sound effect and a circle of lines, not a pile of ashes.

Redcloak merely did enough hit point damage to kill the horse. Yes, it MAY have been a spell-like power of the Crimson Mantle due to the fact that he does not call the name of the spell out loud, but it was NOT Disintegrate. Rich has established the visual look of Disintegrate several times in the strip, and this wasn't it.

[mikeejimbo]

I also think Xykon isn't lying about his items, either. For one thing, it makes the whole story of the crown distressing and harrowing, that he would kill someone for no real reason, which is perfectly fitting with Xykon's character. And the joke about finding it in his cereal box was clearly just that, a joke.

[Nerdanel]

It should have been Destruction 1/day :smallredface:

So I confused two similar spell names, but I think the basic idea is sound. (I wrote more about this in the class and level geekery thread.)

Redcloak made Destruction happen. He couldn't have been high enough level at the time to cast Destruction with his cleric levels.

Redcloak and Xykon aren't truly on the same side even though they are allies, as the most recent comic reiterates, and they both know it. Xykon has a good reason to lie about which item protects him from positive energy, a weakness of his that Redcloak as a cleric would be primed to exploit.

[Renegade Paladin]

However, he would still have his domain powers: 1/day Smite from Destruction, and +1 to the caster level of all Law spells (useless in this case since he didn't have currently any) from Law. This in addition to any powers from the Crimson Mantle.
Erm... I'm fairly certain that Redcloak doesn't have the Law domain, since he was surprised that the high priest of the Twelve Gods had hold monster, and the high priest's explanation was "Law domain." If Redcloak himself had that domain, he wouldn't have forgotten.

[Chronos]

He uses Hold Monster himself at one point in Start of Darkness. And even if he didn't have the Law domain himself, his deity offers it, and it'd be odd for a High Priest to forget one of his deity's domains, even if he didn't have it himself. His surprise during the Saved Game battle could have just been surprise that he and his enemy had a component of their alignment in common.

[hamishspence]

"What did you do?" is said after killing of paladin, not horse. Redcloak said, aloud, SMITE. A power of the destruction domain, not the same thing as the Destruction Spell.

It is possible that destruction spell was use on horse, but not that likely, since most of Redcloaks spells show a red glow around target, from animate to slay Living. and we know any spell that would kill horse, would cause it to disappear. at least, under 3.5 ed rules. If we insist that it must be 3rd or 2nd ed, cos OtOoPCs was 3rd ed, then it becomes trickier.

[Tempest Fennac]

The High Priest was able to use 3 Slay Living type spells altogether with the last 2 being used while he was being attacked from all sides. This suggests that his level was quite good.