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Callista
2008-04-10, 08:30 AM
Mmkay, so I'm trying to work up this PC... we're doing a 5th level campaign, core-only unless you specifically ask. I thought of an interesting situation and I'm wondering whether it's viable.

The PC is a cleric; but he has no idea he's a cleric. In fact, he doesn't really care much about the gods. The thing is, he believes so strongly in everything his patron deity believes in that he's granted spells.

I know this could work with a "cleric of a cause"; but I want there to be a deity involved--just not acknowledged.

Thing is, I don't know which deity would ever do anything like that--probably a chaotic one?--and how to work the "Here, let me heal you; no I'm actually not a cleric" thing. Am I trying too hard, and will I end up with something ridiculous; or is it worth the effort?

Kazuel
2008-04-10, 08:39 AM
my guess would be to change him to favored soul, it seems more likely for the fluff to fit the mechanics that way.

Galdor Miriel
2008-04-10, 08:42 AM
Its a brilliant role play concept, the fantasy series "Deed of Paksennarion" by Elizabeth Moon has the same idea but the protaganist is a cleric and granted powers without knowing, such as healing, divine knowledge etc. Its a fabulous piece of fluff and it should take you at least 5 levels to acknowledge your status.

I think the way to spin it could be that you respect and admire a whole bunch of gods but you are uncertain and questioning their precepts. The gods however do not mind your doubts because your heart is pure and powers are granted to you as you grow in wisdom.

Nice idea, have fun.

Now if only the same thing could be worked out for a wizard, "whoops, I had no idea waving my hands like that while holding this piece of bat s*** would cause your flesh to become so charred.....sorry?"

Galdor

Callista
2008-04-10, 08:52 AM
Oh, also: Lack of holy symbol. If he doesn't know he's a cleric, he's probably not going to lug one around... but it's kind of stupid to say, "Hey, DM, I'm not gonna use one of my required spell foci, OK? OK." Maybe he could wear a necklace given to him by a sweetheart or a mentor or something...

pasko77
2008-04-10, 09:01 AM
Now if only the same thing could be worked out for a wizard, "whoops, I had no idea waving my hands like that while holding this piece of bat s*** would cause your flesh to become so charred.....sorry?"

Galdor

They are called "sorcerers" :)

Craig1f
2008-04-10, 09:09 AM
I agree with Kazuel. Make him a favored soul. Make him meditate in the morning instead of pray.

DrizztFan24
2008-04-10, 09:13 AM
Now if only the same thing could be worked out for a wizard, "whoops, I had no idea waving my hands like that while holding this piece of bat s*** would cause your flesh to become so charred.....sorry?"

haha sigged

Ya I think it would work pretty well, but things like holy weapon might give away which diety is granting them powers...

Kol Korran
2008-04-10, 09:52 AM
first of all, i commend you on the idea- it sounds liek somethign realy fun to roleplay, and i'm always in favour of that! as to the question "which god would do grant powers to someone hwo denies it?" well, i have a few ideas, or general conceoptions, but i can't tell you ap aparticular god if youdon't tell me the setting. here are a few general ideas about roleplay (i'll get to the mechanics issue later):


in a world where gods and clerics (or other divine casters) exist it will be hard to "not know" you're a cleric in the strict sense of the term (would be a hell of a problem to explain your spell casting powers, domain powers, and turn undead ability/ divine feats). however, what if you developed powers (for believing in the ideals of the god, instead of the god), but when you dound out about it, it pissed you off? you don't want to be a cleric, you hate that pompeos bastard of a god, and you'll do whatever you can to "uncleric" you, or make it regret ever choosing you! sounds difficult? not realy, not if you follow the following tips
one possible god is the god of free will/ free spirit/ own choice. it admires you as the epitome of it's ideals, and thus grants you the powers. you however, (in accordance with the ideals) think that there is no need for a god of that, and that he is only an enterpenuer (trying to bait the atheists). you try to do with out the powers given to you, but at times you do, procaliming to everyone that may listen that you're doing this from your free will! at times you also try to use your powers to support conformity (to spite the god off), but yor own ideal and nature prevails. in short- it is a battle of wills between tow very highspirited individuals, who argue where they got their individuality from...
another possible god is the Trickster god, the "games within games with in games" god. you're an independent, resoursfull, manipulating and intelligent person. the god commends you, granting you the powers. youfreak out, not wanting to be it's "tool", and so you rebel. you try to outtrick the tricster, using the variosu powers to goals that may seem opposed to the god's (but may end up serving it instead), at times trying to either not use powers, or using them in a lawfull, obvious manner ("nice disguise" the god commends you in your dreams), and more. this time, it's a battle of wit against the god, as wel las a battle of wills. and it's always hard to know who has the upper hand between two master con artists...
there may be other gods, but i can't think of them. in any case, the ideals/beliefs themselves should be what at the same time seperates you from the god, and make it grant you powers. the "difficulty" between you should be more phylosophycal, at times amusing ("i told you so!"), at itmes enlightening (to both you and your god). talk about this extensively with the DM before hand, so s/he can create opprtunities for you to roleplay in. who wins at the end? that is an open question, (perhaps even the wrong one), and it has more than two possible answers...
there is a book by Terry Pratchett called "Small Gods", which could be quite an inspiration for the character. the book is hillarious, but more importently- it has some very nice discussions (more like arguments) between a god and his follower. not everything there pertains to your idea, but quite a bit could. i highly recommend it.
as to the general, session to session roleplay- i suggest you roleplay the relationship with the god only when realy appropriate (otherthan the occasional curse to it's name when you heal a friend or something- "XXX be cursed! good, now you're healed! don't you dare thank me for it! just try not to get hurt next time, ok?!" i'd try an emphasize the character's own individuality, and whenever events seem to sway in a certain direction (directed by an unseen hand?), you immediatly step forward and try and direct it another way (boldly, or manipulatively, depending on god).


as to mechanincs and such:

the cleric class usually suggests some learning and dedication tothe cause, but you and the DM might rule it otherwise. i do however second the suggestion of Favored soul (perhaps with another class as well), as it seem more appropriate. also- the limited selection of spells might relate far better to a set of ideals and "powers granted by god". you could choose only the specific spells that fit your character, and avoid all the more general utility and other stuff. (and thus avoid all the not-fitting-with-character-concept questions). as to the wings, and other class features, i'd suggest you house rule something more appropriate with your own ideas.
if you do go with the cleric, choose the domains wisely. talk with your DM about domains from other sources, such as Liberation from the spell compedium. as to the "turn undead" feature- if it doesn't fit your concept, i'd suggest you take a devine feat if possible (complete devine), or alternetavely, exchange it to something else (such as the paladin's divine grace ability).
holy symbol: most DMs don't keep track of it, and as long as the god in question is liberal enough, i don't see a problem with it. in fact- i think it can add to the character: if you go with the "free will" god, then you deny the holy symbol as a sign of conformism. instead, you either not use a symbol (but the god stil lgrants you the powers commending you on your inginuity, which infuriates you), or you try to make your own symbol/s- a sign of your own individuality. (you also try to make it as offensive to the god as possible). if you go with the trickster god, it can have no singular symbol, prefering to hide beyond the self creations of it's disciples. you may also make your own symbols, but hide them when you use them, not wanting your gods to see. or, more appropriatley- each of the symbols you craft have multiple meanings, some of which you intnet as offending the god (but which the god may argue do exactly the opposite). again- the symbol, as a connection between the believer and the faith, represnenting both, can be one fo the fronts on which you and your god do battle.

hope this helped, i know it may not have been exaclty what you intended though...

Callista
2008-04-10, 10:54 AM
They're the gods found in the pHB.

metalbear
2008-04-10, 11:10 AM
One way you could make this work is that the god that you are a "cleric" of is either the PC's racial god (would work if the PC was raised by another race and had no contact with their racial god. An example of this would be a gnome raised by halfings and unwittingly becoming a cleric of Garl Glittergold or some other gnomish deity). Another way (although maybe not what you were looking for) is what David Weber portrays in his Oath of Swords series. The basic line of the story is the god of what is essentially law and war wants a barbarian prince to be one of his holy warriors (paladin), and the prince actively denies the possibility of this happening and ignores all the holy signs. Good luck on figuring it out.

By the way, I hope you don't mind if I use this character concept myself for an upcoming campaign.

Squash Monster
2008-04-10, 11:16 AM
I think you should worship Boccob. You don't care about gods, and you're getting your powers by thoroughly matching ideals with one of the gods. Boccob doesn't care about anything... it works.

sikyon
2008-04-10, 11:46 AM
Just make up one. Say... natural genetic reincarnation of a greater deity when he was once mortal, and therefore you think the same way and are incredibly aligned with him. Normally greater deities don't pay attention to mortals but in this case, he does. Of course if you die, the greater deity doesn't actually care because then he'll just take your soul to meet him.

Craig1f
2008-04-10, 11:46 AM
This reminds me of that evil God in Forgotten Realms. I think it might have been Mask. He kills another God, but no one realizes it, because Mask starts granting spells to all of the followers of the God he'd just killed. It just amuses him, so he does it. I think since he took over the portfolio of the God he'd killed, he didn't see a conflict in granting spells.

SoD
2008-04-10, 12:04 PM
My first thought after reading the first post: make it a favoured soul.

Additional thought: oh, someone beat me to it.
Additional thought: more than once.

I think favoured soul is the general concencus here.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-10, 12:24 PM
Pick one of the Trickster Gods. They're the most likely to go for this.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-10, 12:41 PM
You could just make a cleric that doesn't follow a specific deity, one of those generic ones that follow a concept, and believes his gifts are granted for whatever reason, not for worshiping a specific deity.
For his prepared spells, he meditates everyday, he simply doesn't put any real though about praying to a deity.

Favored soul is an option if you want your character to have a deep link to some deity, and find it only after a while, even gaining these powers without knowing.

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-10, 01:33 PM
in the campaign I'm DMing, there's a PC with a similar concept (sort of); she's a Drow Favored Soul of Moradin =D She generally casts by cursing at him; she still worships Lolth but Moradin is the one granting her spells, whereas she was thrown out of the Drow cities for constantly collapsing caves and so on. As a result of all this, her alignment currently oscillates around true neutral, slowly working its way towards LG as she accepts Moradin more and more.

Conclusion: I think favored soul is the way to do it as well, and rather than casting like most casters do, your character could essentially cast spells the way the OotS characters do (by yelling the spell name and the god backing the character is like "yeah, sure, here ya go!"). <--- lots of punctuation!

hamishspence
2008-04-10, 01:37 PM
Cadderly Bonaduce is fairly close: an agnostic cleric. He isn't sure whether clerics are really just a sort of wizard or not. Only in book 3 does he "get faith"

Making cleric even more unaware than Cadderly would be a little tricky. Maybe abandoned at birth with a holy symbol easily mistakable for a keepsake, and thinking of his "prayers" as just sorcerous preparation of spells.

Devils_Advocate
2008-04-10, 03:10 PM
How much sense it makes for someone to be able to cast cleric spells while saying that he's not a cleric depends a lot on what "cleric" means in the game world. If it specifically means a spellcasting member of an actual clergy, then he's not even mistaken about it. Note that clerics aren't the only ones who can cast divine spells; druids, paladins, and rangers also can, and bards can cast healing spells and cast spells in armor, too. Your character is able to prepare exactly those spells that are available to clerics, but unless he's spent a fair amount of time around someone familiar with clerical spellcasting, he probably doesn't know that. We are not talking about someone with ranks in Knowledge(religion) here, clearly. And, hey, sorcerers cast the same spells as wizards without needing spellbooks, so the idea that someone could cast the same spells as a cleric without needing a god is not without precedent by way of analogy.

Use the Favored Soul class if you want him to actually be the sorcerer to the cleric's wizard.


Oh, also: Lack of holy symbol. If he doesn't know he's a cleric, he's probably not going to lug one around... but it's kind of stupid to say, "Hey, DM, I'm not gonna use one of my required spell foci, OK? OK." Maybe he could wear a necklace given to him by a sweetheart or a mentor or something...
Your character once spent a wild night with a follower of... Olidammara? Farlanghn? Kord? Garl Glittergold? Corellon Larethian? Yondalla? Moradin? Ehlonna? Pelor? Heironeous? Boccob? ...whoever, who recognized him as a devoted follower of her (or his) god(dess)'s ideals. She surreptitiously tattooed her deity's holy symbol on his back when he was passed out, so that her god would know to watch over him and protect him. (And maybe because she was amused at the thought of how he'd react when and if he found out about it.)

It worked rather better than expected.

Important Note!: I can't find anything in the rules saying that you actually have to do anything with a holy symbol in order to cast spells, but by the RAW, you specifically have to present it in order to turn undead. That means that your character probably won't turn any undead until he clues in to the source of his abilities. That's unlikely to be a big problem, so it's probably nothing to worry about.

Tura
2008-04-11, 02:47 AM
Important Note!: I can't find anything in the rules saying that you actually have to do anything with a holy symbol in order to cast spells
Nnnnot really. From the SRD:


Divine Focus (DF)

A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith.
And in core, there are more than 100 cleric spells that require divine focus...

To the OP. This is an interesting idea, which can get more or less complicated depending on how much you and the DM are prepared to re-invent fluff and house-rule mechanics. It also depends on the setting, and how clerics and divine casters in general fare in the world. Without info on that, I'll assume you can take any liberties you like, and propose the following:

Tricksters and deities of individuality, liberty etc have already been suggested, and are solid choices. But the other extreme can work too. Be lawful . The character doesn't care much about gods, but firmly believes that every man's potential is infinite and yet unexplored. He believes in self-betterment (for good or evil purposes, doesn't matter), he believes that focusing enough on your goal will grant you success, he believes the human mind has untapped powers, he believes all sorts of supernatural effects can be achieved through meditation. So basically, he trains himself like a monk (fluff-wise, minus the unarmed stuff) and behaves like a monk.
Correction: you don't have to be Lawful per se, only focused and self-disciplined.

Other options: Playing a cleric that doesn't even believe he has special powers at all is, arguably, more fun, but more difficult to pull off. "Hey, that nasty wound of yours seemed to completely heal when I touched you. What a staggering coincidence." You could limit your spell choices to not obvious effects (like buffs), but you'd turn out a bit unoptimized, so maybe this isn't such a good idea, especially if you are the only cleric in the party.

Idea: Maybe you are a wacky gambler, who blindy believes in Luck, and attributes everything to luck. Your lucky dice are your divine focus and you don't even know it. You have this ex-wand of Cure Light Wounds, all charges expended, and you actually think that you can heal people with it because you stumbled upon the universe's only "defective" wand that never runs out charges, you lucky bastard. :smalltongue: You cross your fingers and wish that monster over there would just stand still and stop stomping menacingly towards you, and it does! Maybe it remembered something and got distracted, or maybe a paralyzing tarantula just happened to bite it.
...This could be very fun actually. I think I'll try to play it myself. :smallamused:

EDIT- That last idea? I like it more and more. The character either doesn't believe in gods at all (bah, who needs gods when you got luck), or hates Lady Luck (the deity) personally, because he once prayed to her for a good roll in a gambler's den and ended up losing a small fortune. (Or something like that.) Either way, Lady Luck herself finds the whole thing very amusing, and grants him powers just for kicks. He does technically believe in luck, after all.

[Extra points for fondly rubbing and cooing dice IC and OOC at the same time.
"Who's the best and cutest die in the world? You are! Yes, you are!"]

Rowan Intheback
2008-04-11, 05:00 AM
Yes yes we all feel that you are a Favored Soul but if your DM says you need to use core then you can pull this off through core. The trouble is finding a god not so wrapped up in their own crap to care about someone who doesn't pry to them. It sounds to me you want to be a follower of Pelor. He's all about healing and good. He might be into bestowing power where there is no worship.

Basically the ingredients you need to make this character work are the back story of a Favored Soul with the mechanics of a cleric. Your idea for the holy symbol is really neat. You should totally use the locket of a lover or something and a smiling sun is actually pretty common in a locket. You could even pray for spells every day if your back story involved discovering powers from a mysterious force that spoke to you. You could ask the voice to give you the power to heal everyday. As long as you think of something cool enough to justify a god noticing your plight to bestow powers you're set.

Bahamut isn't a bad choice either. He's characteristically a very active god who likes to involve himself on the material plane. I'm currently playing in an epic level 6 world where dragons have disappeared along with most religions and races. Bahamut sort of stepped up as the protector of good and justice. This neat active personality is why he's taking Heironeous' place as the ultimate good guy in 4th edition.

Ascension
2008-04-11, 06:22 AM
I personally think this sounds like Olidammara all the way. I get the feeling he does crap like this all the time, just because it entertains him. The downside here would be that if he happened to be distracted/bored one day you might not get your spells, so you'd best make sure you keep him entertained.

Dannoth
2008-04-11, 06:58 AM
Bad idea. The whole point of a cleric is they PRAY for their blessings. Their "power" is not their own, it comes from above. That is the main difference between Wizards and Clerics.

May I suggest a different game mechanic.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-11, 07:41 AM
There's a feat in Faiths of Eberron that followers of the soverign host can take, it lets you ignore the need for a divine focus. Add in a fluff habit of meditating or painting or something equaly quiet for an hour to stand in for prayer. The real problem comes when they actually start casting, maybe if they don't cast at all for a few sessions and then start out with some kind of 2nd ed wildmage-ish table to roll on.

Sounds like a fun idea.

Wolf53226
2008-04-11, 08:21 AM
Have the holy symbol!

You don't know that it is a holy symbol, it is a trinket your mother, or someone else important to your character, but never fully explained what it was for or meant. It is the last thing that person ever gave to you so you sometimes hold it and it gives you strength and confidence in what you are doing. I certainly could make it work in a background.

Devils_Advocate
2008-04-11, 05:34 PM
Nnnnot really. From the SRD:
That's, um... exactly the part of the SRD I checked before posting. I'm repeating myself here, but I don't see any mention of needing to perform any action with the holy symbol in order to cast a spell. "A spell’s components are what you must do or possess to cast it." Obviously a holy symbol is something that you possess, not something you do (like a verbal or somatic component). So, unless it's specified elsewhere, there's no RAW requirement that a caster must manipulate the divine focus in order to cast a spell. There's certainly no such requirement in the text you quoted. :smallconfused:

On the other hand -- once again, repeating myself -- "You must present your holy symbol to turn undead."


The character doesn't care much about gods, but firmly believes that every man's potential is infinite and yet unexplored. He believes in self-betterment (for good or evil purposes, doesn't matter), he believes that focusing enough on your goal will grant you success, he believes the human mind has untapped powers, he believes all sorts of supernatural effects can be achieved through meditation. So basically, he trains himself like a monk (fluff-wise, minus the unarmed stuff) and behaves like a monk.
Correction: you don't have to be Lawful per se, only focused and self-disciplined.
Actually, strong belief in self-improvement, self-direction, and individual potential sounds like a rather individualistic, Chaotic philosophy.


Their "power" is not their own, it comes from above.
Which is what Callista has explained that she wants for this character. She specifically wants him to get his magic from a deity. That's half of the opening post. ("But he doesn't know it" being the other half.)

Qanael
2008-04-11, 08:20 PM
Obviously a holy symbol is something that you possess, not something you do (like a verbal or somatic component).

Pretty much all divine spells have a DF (Divine Focus) component. In the case of clerics, this is their holy symbol.

tyckspoon
2008-04-11, 08:53 PM
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

It's with the general header of 'Casting Spells'. Same bit that says you can't just leave material components in the pouch, you'll notice.

Devils_Advocate
2008-04-12, 12:14 AM
It's with the general header of 'Casting Spells'. Same bit that says you can't just leave material components in the pouch, you'll notice.
Ah, OK then. Thanks. Darn. Well, that's why I threw in those "I didn't find" caveats... I thought that I might have seen something like that before, and I didn't actually look for it all that hard. :smalltongue:

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-12, 12:55 AM
Just toss the Holy Symbol requirement I say. If the god doesn't care that you don't believe in it and you're still getting spells, it probably doesn't care that you don't have a Holy Symbol either.

If it's a big enough issue, make up some feet so that you don't need one and give that to them.

Sleet
2008-04-12, 11:40 AM
That concept works. Remember, PHB clerics don't need a god, really. (Some settings, like FR and Dragonlance, require clerics to have gods, though - check with your DM.)

I played a cleric of the bog in a game at GenCon last year. He didn't give a hoot about any gods, but A) he'd lived out in the bogs so long that he Knew How The Bog Ought To Be, and B) he was mad as a hatter; this combination game him power. He had the Plant and Water domains.

He had no idea he was a cleric. He just made the bog do what the bog was supposed to do.

Sebastian
2008-04-12, 04:06 PM
Mmkay, so I'm trying to work up this PC... we're doing a 5th level campaign, core-only unless you specifically ask. I thought of an interesting situation and I'm wondering whether it's viable.

The PC is a cleric; but he has no idea he's a cleric. In fact, he doesn't really care much about the gods. The thing is, he believes so strongly in everything his patron deity believes in that he's granted spells.

I know this could work with a "cleric of a cause"; but I want there to be a deity involved--just not acknowledged.

Thing is, I don't know which deity would ever do anything like that--probably a chaotic one?--and how to work the "Here, let me heal you; no I'm actually not a cleric" thing. Am I trying too hard, and will I end up with something ridiculous; or is it worth the effort?

It is perfectly viable, I've read sometime of, for example, evil deities that give spells to fallen clerics and paladin without they knowing it, they prayed for spells, they got them, they never knew there was another god to give it to them. I think it could apply to your situation, depending on what your character believes (and does) some appropriate god could give you the spells you want because your actions someway support his cause.

It is not like the spells arrive in a signed envelope, anyway.

brant167
2008-04-12, 05:01 PM
Don't know if this would work but what if the god granting you these spells was long dead and the only energy that is left of him is in the dream world. Could have died 100,000's of years ago and finally he trying to regain power from worshipers in a desperate attempt to throw his remaining power at random people. However since he doesn't have enough power he can not grant prayers and can only be reached through the dream world.
Mechanics could be instead of praying you are a heavy sleeper and take an additional -8 to all checks for waking you up and you can't cast spells unless you get 9 hours of sleep. It is doable, the deity is vague so the dm can work it into the story very easily (hell I would love that plot hook), and balanced.

hamishspence
2008-04-12, 05:03 PM
sounds a lot like one of the forgotten gods in Faerun: Lost Empires. Just a tiny spark left. still, a good idea.