You Be The Judge !!

[Damionte]

Hey gang,

It's been a while. :)

I need some impartial opinions to judge one f my house rules and give a bit of feedback.

There are certain actions which you can do as part of a movement move action, all of which are normally move actions in and of themselves.

- Draw A Weapon or weapon like object
- Lose a shield

The RAW states that these are free actions when done as part of a move action.

My spirit of the rules house rule is to have characters move at least half the distance of the stated move before they can finish drawing the item or losing the shield. As I feel this isn't as much doing a free action and a move action, as it is doing two move actions at the same time.

So as an example, say you're moving 40 feet while drawing your weapon. You have to cover the first 20 feet before your weapon comes out.

Now ignoring the concept of rule zero and that as game master I have the right to make just such a rule interpretation and call.

Is this in your opinion a fair ruling.

Could you live with or play with this house rule in your game?

[SurlySeraph]

I could live with it, sure, but I don't think it's necessary. Letting people draw a weapon while moving is entirely plausible and not at all overpowered. If it were a rule that let them take two standard actions for the price of one, that'd be a problem, but it isn't.

[bugsysservant]

I can see your logic, but is this really needed? It just seems to add more complexity and calculations into a game where there are already a lot. The only situation I can really see it bothering would be robilar's gambit uberchargers at the start of the battle. And that's pretty situational, I must admit.

[blacksabre]

I think it should be up to the player where in his movement this "free action" occurs. But I would aggree that it must occur over a 20 foot segment of the area covered

the reason for this is shield drop..
Scenerio, While fighting 3-4 baddies the cliff is collapsing into a chasm, and the only way to survive is to make a leap off the cliff to a hangin rope 50 feet way in 2 rounds, so he decides to make a run for the edge and make his jump next round.
If PCx moves 40, and he wants to to move through threatened squares and provoke AoO, then he would want to keep his shield for as long as possible (blocking attacks as he moves.) But he must drop the shield 20 feet prior to the end of his run

[melchizedek]

I'd ask two questions about this:

What are you trying to accomplish with this rule?

Why do you think the way the rule is written is a problem?

[Tsotha-lanti]

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the houserule. What are you trying to accomplish, exactly?

In what kind of situations is this going to affect a PC? I can see it counting in case a PC falls into a pit at some point in their movement and you have to determine whether they had their weapon out and if it was dropped upon landing, but that's pretty esoteric.

I suppose it can also restrict Spring Attack a bit, but only in very specific circumstances (Spring Attacking when you don't have a weapon drawn yet). Oh, and Two-Weapon Defense - "You hadn't moved 50% of your intended movement yet, you didn't have your weapons out, you don't get the TWD bonus to AC against the AOO."

I'd say it's inconsequential, and therefore cannot be unfair. I just don't know if there's any point in bothering to remember it.

[Burley]

I'd say that it isn't a bad rule...but, I would never use it.
You can't even draw during a move action until you have a BAB of +1, anyways. Not a big deal for Fighters, but it's a big deal for rogues and junk.

I'd say the character knew he wasn't going to move his full distance and compensated by partly drawing the weapon before he actually moved. I mean...tugging a sword out of a sheath doesn't usually take a full three seconds anyways. And, if you can somehow manage to land a half-dozen hits during the next three...I'd let the drawing as a move action slide.

However: if you were under BAB +1, and you could draw a weapon as part of a move action if you move at least half of your base speed...and then normal rules after BAB +1, you'd get your houserule in, and make your players really happy.
It might even make them slightly more tactical...

[hamishspence]

its possible to move 5 ft as a move action instead of a 5ft step. so what would be the "half way" mark in this case?

Its a bit unneccessary, cos it will never be an advantage, only a disadvantage. Maybe its intended to stress that time is needed to draw the weapon? We run into issues of attacks of opportunity made while player is moving: he cannot return his attack of opportunity if open, cos weapon is not out yet. Seems like a way to weaken players who sart fight with weapon sheathed even furthur.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

It's something I could live with, but it seems too much work for what it's worth. As far as modeling reality:

1) If they are going to move 40ft, then having them not get the AC bonus for an AoO they provoke seems fine.

2) If they want to move and attack someone 10ft away, I see no reason why they can't spend the first theoretical 20ft of movement pulling their sword half way and the next 10ft moving and pulling the sword so that they end their movement with a weapon drawn. Anything that forces characters to run in a circle in order to pull their weapon out and make an attack is just silly, fighters are already gimped from needing a full attack, no reason to make it worse.

[Damionte]

There's no running around in circles necessary with the house rule.

You still move however far you were going to move.

If you're only moving 5 feet on your move action then the weapon comes out at the same time. That's not so much drawing your weapon as you move, as it is moving while you draw your weapon.

And we're running an arena so this type of thing does come up a lot.

For instance the first time it came up, someone was jumping across an expanse while losing their tower shield. He was spending his move action to go 50 feet, and making the jump after just the first 5 feet. It didn't seem right to be able to get his shield off before making the jump then moving the rest of the 50 feet to make his attack. That's where the house rule originated.

Current instance a player has 30 feet of movement. They moved20 feet, then stopped to hold their action to shoot anything that came within view.

Apun arriving at their location though this is when they gained LOS on their foe. I gave them the chance to continue on with their current action and change the readied action.

He decided not to stop there and uinstead another 10 feet while drawing out a tanglefoot bag, then throwing the tanglefoot bag. (He had forgotten we had a house rule against it.)

I felt that he didn't have any intention to draw the tanglefoot bag before he gained LOS, and didn't have enough of his movement left to decide in the middle of his move that he wanted to draw the new weapon. (This is the reason we have this house rule in play.) He had already moved 20 feet with the stated intention to shoot whoever he saw with his bow.

[hamishspence]

losing the shield: isn't dropping an item a free action in all cases? why would he be holding a tower shield while jumping a chasm?

sorry, checked that, you're right, still, hard to imagine someone hanging onto something that big while jumping. Its a case of wriggling out of straps while moving, is doing it in 5ft plausible?

[Breaw]

its possible to move 5 ft as a move action instead of a 5ft step. so what would be the "half way" mark in this case?

Its a bit unneccessary, cos it will never be an advantage, only a disadvantage. Maybe its intended to stress that time is needed to draw the weapon? We run into issues of attacks of opportunity made while player is moving: he cannot return his attack of opportunity if open, cos weapon is not out yet. Seems like a way to weaken players who sart fight with weapon sheathed even furthur.

Ah that's not an issue with 5 foot steps though, since you can draw your weapon, then take the 5 foot step, then do w/e standard or move action you want.

I have always interpreted the rule as: 'If you have +1 BaB and make a regular move (of any distance, which means minimum distance 10 ft) then you get to draw/sheath a weapon and/or ready/loose a shield as a free action.'

I suppose there might be a case for saying that the 'regular move' has to be a 'full regular move' but not much of one. All that being said, to have reason to make such a houserule you would have to have a PC who actually is affected by it. As such, the question returns to: 'Why do you care?'

The reasons to care about wether someone is wielding a weapon while running are few and far between. Shields on the other hand, I might venture a guess: Perhaps you have a sword/board fighter who sees a caster in the back, and rushes in first round to try to take him out. Does he have his shield out by the time he rushes past the baddy mooks?

Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?

If so I would ask myself: Is this player accomplishing something unreasonably powerful? Because if not I would leave the sword and board fighter be, cause he needs all the love he can get.

You can picture the drawing of weapons however you want, they could be done as you are running forward, or you could be placing your hand on your weapon, and drawing it as you make the first few steps of your daring charge. Which is to say, I don't think there is a decisive reason to make a call one way or the other based on 'reality'. As such I would simply look at the game mechanics going on, and decide wether you think it is too good or not, then make your call that way. Unless your players are doing some really tricky things that I can't see atm I would be very surprised if this actually warranted a houserule.


P.S. As far as the leaping for the rope after crashing through enemies at the edge of the cliff scenario. I would (personally) give my players a choice, either just drop the shield during the jump (free action), or make a reflex save to properly 'stow' the shield. Fail by small amount means he drops the shield, fail by lots makes grabbing the rope very hard.

[Damionte]

losing the shield: isn't dropping an item a free action in all cases? why would he be holding a tower shield while jumping a chasm?

Because dropping a weapon is a free action.

Getting a shield free from your arm is a move action. You have to lose it before you can drop it.

Also with the huse rule the total distance you can move is not relevant. Only the total distance you're actually moving is. In the house rule your weapon comes out once you've reached the half way point of your move. Whatever that distance happens to be. (I believe we're rounding up.)

If you are spending your whole action to only move 10 feet then your weapon comes out after you've moved 5.

Like I said, I don't see this as a free action and a move action. Drawing a weapon is normally a move action all by itself. It shouldn't go faster just because you're moving. The action needs to still represent the amount of time it would had you not been moving.

This is the nature of the house rule.

[Breaw]

If you're only moving 5 feet on your move action then the weapon comes out at the same time. That's not so much drawing your weapon as you move, as it is moving while you draw your weapon.

Just to be clear, 5 foot steps are different than other movement. Not only do they not provoke attacks of opportunity, but they don't count as a move action (so long as you aren't moving otherwise that round). As such in the case of 5 foot steps, you can draw your weapon (as your move action), then take your 5 foot step (for free), then attack/whatever you want.



For instance the first time it came up, someone was jumping across an expanse while losing their tower shield. He was spending his move action to go 50 feet, and making the jump after just the first 5 feet. It didn't seem right to be able to get his shield off before making the jump then moving the rest of the 50 feet to make his attack. That's where the house rule originated.

Ok in this case you can set it up however you want, but I would tend to take this approach instead: You can loose a shield or you can draw a shield for free during your movement, but you can't loose/ready your shield at will while moving. I would be fine with loosing the shield during one move, then readying it the next. How exactly was he running, jumping AND attacking in one round? Moving x-feet (move action), jumping (move action), end of turn. And you can't hurdle something while charging...


Current instance a player has 30 feet of movement. They moved20 feet, then stopped to hold their action to shoot anything that came within view.

Apun arriving at their location though this is when they gained LOS on their foe. I gave them the chance to continue on with their current action and change the readied action.

He decided not to stop there and uinstead another 10 feet while drawing out a tanglefoot bag, then throwing the tanglefoot bag. (He had forgotten we had a house rule against it.)

Alright, here's another case of breaking rules without realizing it I think. If you delay your action, you don't do anything, and you take your initiative whenever you want, but can't interrupt other peoples actions with yours. If you ready an action then you decide what exactly you are readying. If initiative comes back to your turn before you have done your readied action then you can chose to take your turn or re-ready your action.

It sounds like you are giving your players the benefit of both readied and delayed actions simultaneously. As I interpret the rules, your ranged fighter moved some, then readied an action. When the circumstance allows them to take their readied action they can either a) Take that action. or b) Waste the action and act again on their new initiative (which will be most likely after their opponent, unless they are hidden).

So you see, it seems in both those cases your players have been doing a bit more in one round than is strictly allowed by the game mechanics, which is why we are having a tough time figuring out situations where the houserule was warranted.


All this being said, play it however you and your players have fun, but this is more a question about 3 houserules rather than just 1.

[Damionte]

Just to be clear, 5 foot steps are different than other movement. Not only do they not provoke attacks of opportunity, but they don't count as a move action (so long as you aren't moving otherwise that round). As such in the case of 5 foot steps, you can draw your weapon (as your move action), then take your 5 foot step (for free), then attack/whatever you want.

I understand that. Above was an example. And a legal example at that. for instance had his movement been hampered by something like a low base movement & rough terrain to the point that he couldn't' move much he could still spend a move action to move just 5 feet. I don't actually allow them to draw items or weapons and such as part of a 5-foot step.



Ok in this case you can set it up however you want, but I would tend to take this approach instead: You can loose a shield or you can draw a shield for free during your movement, but you can't loose/ready your shield at will while moving. I would be fine with loosing the shield during one move, then readying it the next. How exactly was he running, jumping AND attacking in one round? Moving x-feet (move action), jumping (move action), end of turn. And you can't hurdle something while charging...


You can indeed jump as part of your normal movement. You're still limited to your max movement. So if you had a movement of 40, you could run 20 feet, jump 10 and still run along another 10 feet all as 1 single move action.




Alright, here's another case of breaking rules without realizing it I think. If you delay your action, .....................

It sounds like you are giving your players the benefit of both readied and delayed actions simultaneously. As I interpret the rules, your ranged fighter moved some, then readied an action. When the circumstance allows them to take their readied action they can either a) Take that action. or b) Waste the action and act again on their new initiative (which will be most likely after their opponent, unless they are hidden).



You mis-understand what I was saying.

He gained LOS at the end of his previous stated move. I allowed him to go back to the point in his move where he gained LOS, and continue moving since he had 10 feet of movement left. Before the declaration of his readied action.

He never got to the point where he needed the readied action. I don't let them ready actions for instances that are already in play.

His original readied action was to shoot his bow when he gained LOS. But he gained LOS before he readied the action. Thus the readied action was not necessary he could just shoot. (It's a PbP game, he didn't have LOS at the beginning of the turn and was posting in a spoiler.)

[Breaw]

You can indeed jump as part of your normal movement. You're still limited to your max movement. So if you had a movement of 40, you could run 20 feet, jump 10 and still run along another 10 feet all as 1 single move action.

My bad, had been reading the description on 'moving' and neglected to read teh description on 'jumping'. :smalltongue: Glad to see that you are in fact a stickler for the details of what one can do in a turn. On a side note, I will definitely be casting more expeditious retreat with my ranger/sorc to trivialize the jumping we've been handed lately.

Now that I fully understand the situation you're in, let me reanalyze your problem.

1) Keep in mind that jumping after moving only 5 feet doubles the DC of the jump. Although I suppose the jump likely still possible from his +8 to jumps from speed... I would probably judge that you have to move at least 10 feet to sheath weapons/loose shields, since you don't get 'free' shield losing unless you move 10 feet. And again I would probably say that you can't sheath and then draw a weapon in the same move action (unless you have quickdraw).

2) As for the specific example of the tanglefoot bag.... that's a tough call. You might be better off just saying: the rules say you can draw/sheath a weapon as a free action if you are moving at least 10 feet, so each sheath/draw requires 10 feet of movement. That said your fighter could have still simply dropped the bow as a free action and pulled out the tanglefoot bag during the last 10 feet of movement.

Your houserule isn't bad at all, and if I was a player in your games I wouldn't question it (I also tend not to question DMs), what I listed above is just how I would deal with the specific circumstances you mentioned.

[Sludge-o-matic]

I cannot say it´s "overpowered". However, if you like and really are upset about those actions, you can make a "draw weapon roll" ( especially for guys with longbows, if they do not draw their weapons carefully they might break). Obviously the DC will be like...5, tops (and if they take 10, they cannot have their move action)

of course, it seems lame to make a roll to draw a weapon. and probably your party will be pissed if the meatshield cannot draw their greatsword when charging to a foe and find himself emptyhanded. And getting the party pissed off is one of the funniest things about being a DM (???).

and about losing shields... dropping is a free action, and shields are not an integral part of game. fine to me.

I don´t think is necessary houseruling those actions. But obviously, you are the master, not I.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Lemme guess, Damionte, did someone pimp Iaijutsu focus in your game? I really can't find another reason for this houserule.

[Damionte]

To give the wrap up and summary for the topic.

Though I feel the house rule is actually the better way to go about it, I decided to drop it and let them do it RAW. With the difference being that they must state before they move rather they're going to draw their weapons.

This way we don't have people getting to their end of their move then deciding after the fact that they want to draw their weapon.

At a table game I wouldn't be such a stickler about this sort of thing. The PC's are the heroes after all, but this isn't a PC vs NPC game. It's an arena game. All of the combat is PC vs PC.

The player still quit the game though so in the end nothing really was gained. The other players seem to think it was fair of my to consider his position and not just say NO. Having lost the player and a house rule I like though doesn't seem like much of a win-win situation.

[skywalker]

Daimonte, I think it that particular situation you were right. If you get LOS at 20ft, I think it's foolish to draw a tanglefoot bag out and throw it in 10ft. However, I would not create a houserule, I would just rule everything on a case to case basis, which I realize isn't what you wanted, but seriously, I don't think you could make the rule without it being needlessly complicated.

For example, don't you think he ought to have been able to draw(and possibly throw) a dagger? They're much smaller than tanglefoot bags. Likewise, it should be a lot easier to loose a buckler(which, depending on how you think of bucklers, can mean the character is doing nothing more than holding the shield, it's not strapped on) than a tower shield, I think.

[holywhippet]

The time to draw a weapon should depend on the weapon. If you are pulling a two handed sword out of a scabbard on your back it will take a few seconds. If you are pulling a knife out of a sheath on your torso (much like Leon in Resident Evil 4) then it will be out and ready in under a second.

[Damionte]

I need a house rule because being a PC vs PC game I need the rules to be very consistent. if I had just made the ruling on the spot, there's a chance that I may have forgotten it the next time the situation came up.

and you would think a dagger comes out faster, but I spent a while today drawing my rapier and my parrying dagger today just to see if I could get the dagger out any faster.

I don't really. They both come out about the same speed.

That's on my hip though.

I tried putting the sword over my back. I couldn't even draw it. :) My arms aren't long enough to draw it up and over my back and get it out of the sheath. Not quickly anyway. So I really can't imagine how yu get a great sword or anything large li8ke that from a sheath on your back. Quickly anyway.

I have a friend who has a great sword with harness. His sheath opens about half way down, which probably helps it come out faster. I've never tried it.

To bad we can't just do it like Highlander The Series. Or the Power Rangers. They all seem to have these extra dimensional spaces where their weapons hang out until they're needed.

Actually on highlander they have a grip who stands by, then runs in and hands you the sword. Hahaha next time I take leadership I'll have one of the minions be a sword boy. :)

[Icewalker]

Sounds like it would almost never come up, and looks fine to me.

[Ascension]

For what it's worth, a trained warrior's experience would probably vary from yours when it comes to the speed with which a weapon is drawn. I would say the majority of us don't have BAB +1. Or proficiency, for that matter. And modern replica weaponry is often wildly inaccurate.

[Erebus]

The time to draw a weapon should depend on the weapon. If you are pulling a two handed sword out of a scabbard on your back it will take a few seconds. If you are pulling a knife out of a sheath on your torso (much like Leon in Resident Evil 4) then it will be out and ready in under a second.

Agreed! A rogue can actually pull out a hidden light weapon with a Sleight of hand move...but in general time should depend on the size of the weapon...

[Eikre]

For what it's worth, a trained warrior's experience would probably vary from yours when it comes to the speed with which a weapon is drawn. I would say the majority of us don't have BAB +1. Or proficiency, for that matter. And modern replica weaponry is often wildly inaccurate.

Alright, so I generally don't take people very seriously when they note that they have a weapon because historical swordsmanship is a sport that varies wildly, having poor national standards and popular coverage. But it's not so uncommon, anymore. The replica weapons, stage-swordsmanship, and sport fencing that have dominated the scene for the past century leave me distrustful, but, like eastern martial arts, swordsmanship is coming back into its own.

Give him the benefit of the doubt. Ask instead his background before you assume he hasn't any skill.

That said, I'm reasonably incredulous that he draws a sword that extends from his foot to his navel faster than a dagger. If the knife is positioned correctly, you should be capable of drawing it about as fast as you ready a fist, unless it has a guard more complicated than a simple ring.

Swords on one's back aren't really intended to be drawn in the scope of a surprise combat, by the way. If your sword is to long or heavy to rest on the hip, it's a specialized weapon of war. You're not intended to have that out any quicker than, say, a lance.

That said, if you impose speeds base on the weapon, then everyone with a spear is going to ad a sling over one shoulder and just carry it such that they can shrug off the sling or drop the spear as the condition needs. Everyone carrying a "greatsword" is going to either ask for Reach or demand that their weapon's size be reduced from the laughable man-long depictions in the PHB to better match the mechanics that represent a presumable real-word item. Flails go around the neck. Etc.

In short, what I'm saying is that people are going to get more realistic when you do, and that doesn't mean the power is moving around, it just means they're much less dynamic looking. Except for the flail guy. Spiky ball, stick, and chain as a necklace is badass, but it might give you runner's nipple.

As for the original rule? Whatever. As a player, I don't believe I would ever care more than once in my tenure with you, and I do not believe it would affect me terribly. Unless you're getting a stiffy from the cleverness, I would discard it so that your house rules are more consistently hard-hitting. Craft Points would make me find your game more interesting, this does not.

[Kurald Galain]

My spirit of the rules house rule is to have characters move at least half the distance of the stated move before they can finish drawing the item or losing the shield.
I feel this is unnecessarily complex. If, during some interval of time, you can move 20 feet and draw a sword, then obviously during the same interval you can move 4.5 feet and draw a sword. The reason for this rule is that most people (with average dexterity or better, I suppose) can do something with their hands independently while walking, without breaking stride.

[Damionte]

I feel this is unnecessarily complex. If, during some interval of time, you can move 20 feet and draw a sword, then obviously during the same interval you can move 4.5 feet and draw a sword. The reason for this rule is that most people (with average dexterity or better, I suppose) can do something with their hands independently while walking, without breaking stride.

That's just it. As it's stated RAW you are not spending the same amount of time when you're at just 4.5 feet. not if you were spending that time to move 40 feet.

My dwarf fighter can move 20. for his 3 seconds he was able to go 20 feet, and draw his weapon after 10 feet of it.

While my human monk can go 50 feet in that same span of time. If he's moving the whole distance his weapon won't spring out till he gets 25 feet through his action.

Both characters are getting their weapons out at the same time.

The house rule actually works very well. The original question was it a fair house rule, which it seems to be. One of my players exploded into tyraids of how unfair it was and quit the game.