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The Sandman
2008-04-11, 01:48 AM
I'm currently a D&D virgin, but I got a hold of some sourcebooks recently and decided, for the heck of it, to try to stat myself out a character. Unfortunately, since I'm kind of new to this, I have no idea exactly how playable my idea would be, or what feats or spells to take, and so on. Therefore, I would happily accept any advice or help more seasoned people could give me.

What I've got figured out right now, I think (statted for 20th level)

Human Bard 3/Marshal 3/Crusader 14

Focus is on Inspire Courage maximization, with additional buffs and ability to actually fight on the front lines thrown in.

Feats I'm definitely taking: Song of the White Raven
Lingering Song
Force of Personality
Battle Dancer
Song of the Heart
Iron Will

Class Bonus Feats: Skill Focus(Diplomacy)
Die Hard

Feats I'm debating between: Extra Music
Goad
Versatile Performer
Leadership
Negotiator
Persuasive
Master Manipulator
Wanderer's Diplomacy
White Raven Defense
Avenging Strike
Faster Healing
Spellcasting Prodigy

Of the above feats, I think I have room for three at level 20.

Figure I'd definitely want either a Songblade or a Crystal Echoblade at some point, with at minimum the Harmonizing and Resounding qualities attached (possibly Defending as well). I'd also eventually want Slippers of Battledancing and a Vest of Legends, along with a Badge of Valor.

For spells, the only one I'm sure of is Inspirational Boost.

For Marshal auras, minor auras would be Strength and either Dexterity, Charisma, or Force of Will. Major aura would be Resilient Troops.

As far as stats go, Charisma is obviously the primary one. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure what to prioritize.

And for Knowledges, I have no idea what I should put ranks in, beyond Perfom(dance), Perform(oratory), Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. I'm thinking Perform(sing) and a couple of Knowledges, but I don't know which knowledges would be useful.

I haven't even gotten into trying to figure out what maneuvers and stances to take yet.

Sorry about the verbosity, but as I said, I'd really appreciate any help I could get as far as optimization goes.

melchizedek
2008-04-11, 02:32 AM
Your feats:
Extra Music: Useful if you have a lot of encounters, but usually not really worth it.
Goad: The crusader gets access to a bunch of maneuvers that make it a bad idea for the enemy to attack anyone but them. Take a couple of those, and free up your feats.
Versatile Performer: It's a decent feat if you think you're going to need to use a bunch of different types of performance. Not neccesary, but fun.
Leadership: Ask your DM about this first. It's a GREAT feat, but it requires extra work for either you or your DM.
Negotiator: Skip it
Persuasive: Skip it
Master Manipulator: Again, this can be an interesting feat choice if you use the Diplomacy skill often, and you think the new options will come in helpful. It depends on the type of game you're playing.
Wanderer's Diplomacy: None of the options this feat grants seem that useful to me, but I could be missing something. If your DM makes it very difficult to find particular magic items, the first option could be nice. Overall, I'd say this feat isn't worth much.
White Raven Defense: This feat can pay off. A untyped +1 bonus to AC to you and any adjacent ally can be helpful.
Avenging Strike: If you're mostly fighting evil outsiders, this could be good, especially if you go for a high Cha. If you aren't mostly fighting evil outsiders, skip it.
Faster Healing: If you need healing, there are plenty of crusader stances/maneuvers that provide a great deal more healing than this feat. Skip it.
Spellcasting Prodigy: You'll only ever have access to first level spells. You'll get (at most) one extra 1st level spell from this feat. Skip it.


Other great feats:
Extra Granted Manuever: Gives you more options faster in combat. Always helpful.
Blade Meditation (White Raven): Weapon Focus with all the White Raven weapons, and a bonus to diplomacy isn't too bad at all.

The Sandman
2008-04-11, 03:22 AM
Thanks for the feat advice. After I finished typing the first post, I remembered one more feat on my definite list: Chaos Music. It gives +4 to bard levels for Bardic Music purposes. As for your recommendations, Blade Meditation(White Raven) looks nice. The only question then would be White Raven Defense or Extra Granted Maneuver; I'm thinking Extra Granted Maneuver, just because White Raven Defense and Battle Dancer don't seem to work well together.

Keld Denar
2008-04-11, 06:07 AM
EGM is AMAZING for a crusader, because of the refresh rate on granted maneuvers. EGM allows you to use 2 maneuvers per round on 2/3 rounds and not worry about running out. With all the cool stuff crusaders can do, its HARD to use 2 maneuvers per round, but with a little planning, you can (get a good mix of swift and standard action maneuvers).

I'd go less marshal and more bard though. Bard 4 and 5 get you 2nd level spells, which include some very nice spells (my favorite Whirling Blade from Spell Compendium, and the ever versitile Glitterdust).

Edit: And what's this? No Song of the White Raven? /gasp!

Darrin
2008-04-11, 07:35 AM
Looks like you've got a "Sonic Death: Bardic Badass build", the only thing you're missing is Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic, p. 17):

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-795369.html

In short, convert each +1 of inspire courage into 1d6 fire damage. On *every* *single* *attack* you or an ally makes. With Draconic Heritage, you can switch the damage to a different energy type, such as sonic.

The feats you're debating:

Extra Music - Good, if you're also picking up Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn, spend bardic music for attack bonus).

Goad - No, unless you're picking up flight of some sort.

Versatile Performer - Useless, unless you're going for flavor. ("Why yes, I *do* have a pipe organ in my backpack...")

Leadership - Good. Everyone loves a well-built cohort.

Negotiator - *bzzzt* No! You've got skill points for that.

Persuasive - *bzzzt* No! You've got skill points for that.

Master Manipulator - No. Can only be used out of combat, and I don't see anything here that couldn't be done with either a spell or good roleplaying.

Wanderer's Diplomacy - No. Again, nothing here that can't be done with a good Diplomacy roll or good roleplaying.

White Raven Defense - Not worth it, unless you're picking up Clarion Commander (for "Perpetual Flank": Intimidate DC 20 check to render target flanked for 10 rounds).

Avenging Strike - Hmmm, why haven't I noticed this one before? It's in my favorite book... but it's kind of a toss-up between Arcane Strike and Snowflake Wardance. Arcane Strike is probably more powerful, but harder to qualify for. Snowflake Wardance only buffs attacks, not damage, but good if you're not using your bardic music for anything else.

Faster Healing - No! Just pick up a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
Spellcasting Prodigy - Not worth it. Spellcasting really isn't your main focus, and even if you were a full caster, it wouldn't be worth blowing a feat on this. If I recall, it doesn't even increase your save DCs, the best it can do is get you a bonus spell.

The Sandman
2008-04-11, 11:03 AM
Lussmanj: Actually, I did take Song of the White Raven. As far as Bard vs. Marshal, I'm pretty sure I want at least Marshal 2 to get a major aura. The question is which is worth more: the extra minor aura or the spells? Although, with Chaos Music I'd also get access to Inspire Greatness at level 5, which might be nice...

Darrin: Yeah, I've looked at that build before. I decided to go a little differently as far as what I wanted, though; I actually like the thought of being a walking morale boost to everyone near me. Also, I'm not sure if I'm willing to spend the feats in quite that manner. I especially like the synergy between Lingering Song, Battle Dancer, and a Harmonizing weapon that I have going; add in a Minor Aura of Strength and it gets even nastier.

Keld Denar
2008-04-11, 03:16 PM
Man, I hate it when the forums slow down and my posts get erased mid post.

I posted a bunch of stuff on how major auras suck, and are generally not worth it because they are minor static bonuses that don't scale with level. Also, Motivate Str only works for str based skill and ability checks. Weapon attack and damage rolls are not of this type, and receive no benefit from this. Motivate Dex is one of the only good ones, because initiative IS an opposed dextarity check. That way you add your CHA to you and your friends init, which is crazy powerful.

Man...lost a whole long post...hate it.

The Sandman
2008-04-11, 04:35 PM
I posted a bunch of stuff on how major auras suck, and are generally not worth it because they are minor static bonuses that don't scale with level. Also, Motivate Str only works for str based skill and ability checks. Weapon attack and damage rolls are not of this type, and receive no benefit from this. Motivate Dex is one of the only good ones, because initiative IS an opposed dextarity check. That way you add your CHA to you and your friends init, which is crazy powerful.

Damn, didn't know about the Motivate Strength problem. Which other minor auras are good besides Motivate Dex? And in that case, should I go with an extra level of Bard, of Crusader, or of something else instead of Marshal 2?

Edit: Also, would Snowflake Wardance be worth dropping into this build, and if so which feat should I swap out for it?