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Ascension
2008-04-11, 06:45 AM
I was thinking today about the possibility of running a relatively low-power gestalt game in which one side of the build must be built with purely NPC classes. It seems to me it would give a little bit of the versatility of gestalt while still keeping the power level not all that much higher than standard. Warrior would give proficiencies, full BAB, and possibly a higher hit die, but pretty much nothing else; Expert would give a custom skill list, enough skill points to monkey a bit, and a good save, but nothing else; etc. True, Aristocrat would basically only be worth bragging rights, and an Adept//Anything gish would be weaker than a Caster//Warrior gish, but I think the idea has merit.

How well do you think this would work?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-11, 06:55 AM
Don't knock the Adept. They've got some power. And don't be surprised if someone pulls out a Magewright//Rogue or something. There's a few NPC classes that have merit. Remember, the hardest CR1 encounter is a Kobold adept. ;)

RTGoodman
2008-04-11, 07:07 AM
It works really well, in my opinion. We did this last year for our all-Kobold campaign, and I don't think there was any combination that was particularly overpowered. Adept is strong, and Warrior//Spellcaster can still make a decent gish (or, at the very least, help out a Wizard focused on ray/touch spells). I think we ended up with a Warrior//Half-Red Dragon/Paladin of Tyranny, a Warrior//Sorcerer, an Adept//Warlock, and an Expert//Cleric, and it was a pretty balanced party.

One thing we did rule was that you couldn't multi-class on your NPC side. If you started Warrior (like I did, to keep up my BAB for the three levels of Half-Dragon on the other side), you had to stay with it, even if it became useless to your PC class side. It's an idea you might think about, even if you don't use it.

Keld Denar
2008-04-11, 07:24 AM
Doesn't Expert get 1 class to choose as a class skill? Anything//Expert with UMD as a class skill is almost as good as having rogue or something like that on your off side. Not the strongest thing, but definitely one of the strongest options if you have to have an NPC class on one side. UMD is stronger than many classes class abilities...

Ascension
2008-04-11, 07:57 AM
I always forget about the existence of Magewright. I don't even know what it does beyond being an NPC Artificer.

It's true that the Expert's ability to pick its class skills is open to abuse... via UMD, Iajatsu Focus (however you spell it... I probably wouldn't allow it, anyway...), etc, but I think it'd probably be alright.

Glad to know that someone's tried it and had it work out alright.

I definitely think I'll try this at some point.

Starsinger
2008-04-11, 08:25 AM
True, Aristocrat would basically only be worth bragging rights,

And y'know, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, shields, and all types of armor, and d8 HD. And 4+Int skill points, and a decent sized skill list, but other than that yeah.. Aristocrat is nothing but bragging rights. :smalltongue:

Squash Monster
2008-04-11, 01:46 PM
I don't know any way to really break it, but keep in mind that the NPC class can be used to help with prestige class entry. For example, there are a handful of prestige classes that have really bizarre skill requirements which expert would make easy to get into, like Ur-Priest. Additionally, lots of gish prestige classes can be entered very early with a warrior.

Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Whatever 10 // Warrior 20 is a pretty big step above the gish standard.

bugsysservant
2008-04-11, 04:13 PM
I don't know any way to really break it, but keep in mind that the NPC class can be used to help with prestige class entry. For example, there are a handful of prestige classes that have really bizarre skill requirements which expert would make easy to get into, like Ur-Priest. Additionally, lots of gish prestige classes can be entered very early with a warrior.

Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Whatever 10 // Warrior 20 is a pretty big step above the gish standard.

The skill requirements are a bit of a concern because an Expert can tailor their class list, but I don't think the gish should be a problem. IIRC, good BAB/Spellcasting advancers are lumped with "double progressions" such as mystic theurge, and widely banned with gestalt.

Magnor Criol
2008-04-11, 04:24 PM
Starsinger's right, don't downplay the Aristocrat. In fact, when looking through the DMG, Aristocrat is one of the only two classes noted as being possibly PC-worthy. (Expert being the other one.)

It's got the best proficiencies and provides average results in all the other areas, meaning it'll usually be a valid, if perhaps not the absolute best, choice for the NPC side of a gestalt - particularly if you take RTG's suggestion and don't allow multiclassing on the NPC side. Then the Aristocrat's all-around goodness becomes that much more valuable.

Chronos
2008-04-11, 06:25 PM
In fact, when looking through the DMG, Aristocrat is one of the only two classes noted as being possibly PC-worthy. (Expert being the other one.)I'd put Adept into that category, too... It's not as powerful as wizard or cleric, of course, but it has a very interesting spell list. Who else can cast both Web and Cure Light Wounds?

Draz74
2008-04-11, 06:39 PM
Restrict the Expert's skill list a bit, like limiting UMD/Iaijutsu, but give it Trapfinding in return.

That way it can still turn a non-roguish character into a "skill monkey lite," just like Warrior turns a non-martial character into a "tank lite."

Magnor Criol
2008-04-12, 12:47 AM
I'd put Adept into that category, too... It's not as powerful as wizard or cleric, of course, but it has a very interesting spell list. Who else can cast both Web and Cure Light Wounds?

Makes sense to me, but I was simply referring to what the text itself says - in both the Aristocrat and Expert it says something to the effect of "this class has PC potential, unlike the other NPC classes here".

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 12:59 AM
That actually sounds like a great way to introduce the gestalt rules without having to worry about what specific builds the players make.

Adept//Archivist seems like a decent combo. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2008-04-12, 03:20 AM
Adept//Archivist seems like a decent combo. :smallsmile:

Adept // anything seems like a decent combo.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 04:22 AM
Adept // anything seems like a decent combo.

True, but with the Adept//Archivist combination you get the added bonus of all of those Adept arcane-as-divine spells on the spell list directly, so they can go right into your prayerbook after a quick Scribe Scroll.