How 'Zilla can a Cleric be at level 10? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

greenknight

2008-04-11, 07:37 AM

Jack Mann

2008-04-11, 07:50 AM

I'm in agreement with greenknight. It's not a question of how optimized your BBEG can be, it's how optimized he should be. D&D shouldn't be an escalating power struggle between players and DM. All else being equal, a DM will win that game every time, so don't play it. We can't gauge the power level without knowing whom this is for. Before we can help you with this build, we need more information, or else we may end up sending a titan against toddlers, or else a pup against wolves.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-11, 08:07 AM

Okay, well the PCs are currently level 7-8 and have just about reached the midpoint of the campaign. I expect them to be close to level 12 by the end. The BBEG is a half-dragon Cleric of Tiamat, so level 10-12 seems like it would be a good challenge. The PC party consists of the following:

Half-Elf Wizard Necromancer 8 (prohibited Enchantment & Abjuration)
Elf Rogue 8
Aasimar Psion Telepath 7 (very non-combat oriented)
Tiefling Monk 6/Wizard 1
Human Fighter 8 (longbow specialist)
Human Cleric of Kord 8 (NPC, human shield & healing)
Half-Orc Barbarian 8
Tibbit Swashbuckler 8

My goal with the BBEG is to have the fight last more than 6 rounds. This being the epic climactic battle of the campaign (or near enough), I want him to be tough and capable of dishing out the damage. I'm not opposed to killing some PCs, but I'll only target a particular character for death if it makes sense to do so.

The PCs are not very optimized. Mostly, they've been getting their build advice from me (except for the Monk who just delivered his surprise multiclassing), however I try to give them a few different options to choose from when I make my suggestions. Usually something I think is good, something I think is flavorful, and something I think they'll just like, and let them pick from that, since I'm using a lot of books most of my players don't have. I'm also the only one who comes onto D&D forums all the time. :smallwink:

greenknight

2008-04-11, 05:56 PM

In that case, a well played and heavily optimized Cleric is going to wipe the floor with them, assuming roughly equal levels. If you really want a C'Zilla as the final boss, I suggest you tone it down a lot from what you could do. The character should still be a decent challenge if you do the following:

Prior to battle, have the character use the standard C'Zilla spells (Quickened Divine Favor, Divine Power and Righteous Might). These buffs should wear out after around 8-10 rounds of combat (have Righteous Might go down first, then the other two the next round). Unhallow the area where the BBEG will be. Choose a useful secondary spell but not one which is overly powerful (Freedom of Movement for members of the same faith isn't a bad choice). If it's a large area, consider having two or three places affected by Unhallow. Also have the character buff with Greater Vigor, or at least Vigor, from Spell Compendium, and Death Ward. If the BBEG has reason to believe the characters like using a particular energy type attack (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic), have the character cast Protection from Energy and/or Resist Energy. Equip the character with Full Plate (enhanced with Magic Vestment) and a Long Spear (enhanced with Greater Magic Weapon). Unless you feel it's really necessary, don't have the character cast spells during the combat.

The above is a setup which should present a difficult challenge for the PCs that can be made significantly easier through smart play. If they notice how large the foe is and correctly work out that it's through some sort of enlargement spell, they can just retreat/stall until the effect wears off (this also affects the duration of several other buffs which aren't so obvious). Likewise, casting a Greater Dispel Magic or two might remove several buffs. And when they do beat the BBEG, they'll find both the enemy's weapon and armor aren't magical (they don't even need to be masterwork), so you aren't giving away lots of valuable treasure in order to make your bad guy tough (although you should still make sure the party receives a decent reward for the challenge).

If the PCs still get whipped by this scenario, you can even explain to the players what you did, and how they could have exploited the BBEG's weaknesses. Just be prepared for them to use the same (or similar) ideas in their own character builds in the future.

Sir Giacomo

2008-04-12, 04:30 AM

Well, 8 characters of levels 7-8? They are going to wipe the floor with even a level 12 cleric, if that cleric just zillas (i.e. buffs 2 rounds to be able to equal 1 (!) fighter for several rounds). (just think about it the other way round: would a level 12 pc have a chance vs 8 evil npcs with pc equipment? In melee combat?)

I'd suggest the following for this, say, level 12 cleric to provide a highly atmoshperic challenge for your characters
1. increase foremost the BBEG's survivability. The vigor spells Greenknight has suggested, as well as death ward to stop being knocked out by a simple ray of enfeeblement from the necromancer's pc would be a must to cast at the beginning of combat
2. you basically have to check all your pc's powers and think about ways how the BBEG makes it at least difficult for those pcs to succeed against him with their usual attacks. This is also not metagaming since the BBEG probably knows by now what kind of threats his pc opponents pose
3. then think about what kind of atmospheric stuff the BBEG has at his disposal to overcome the pcs

on 1. Create the combat setting to the liking of the BBEG with his spells. Forbiddance and Unhallow take you already quite far. Throw in some traps triggering symbols (of pain and sleep and fear) and this can give the party quite some hard time (note that it MAY be possible for them to find out the "passwords" before in the course of their adventure). Maybe get deeper darkness in the area as well to provide BBEG with concealment
Then, the BBEG DEFINITELY should above all get minions with his spells: create undead and animated dead are evergreens (maybe of some draconic semblance). Summon Monsters in the course of the battle maybe, but those take long to cast and do not last long. And you can mass buff them with bull's strength, cause light wounds etc. etc. (do not forget: buffing is the great strength of the cleric, not going melee himself).
Good long-term personal buffs at that level for the cleric then are:
freedom of movement, antilife shell (allowing to still use touch spell buffs on his undead), air walk, greater magic weapon, magic vestment.

And ONLY once you are able to go melee vs 1-2 pcs AT MOST, then you could do the zilla stuff (say, after having separated the superior numbers of the pcs with blade barriers).

And, if all fails, you could move out of the forbiddance area to use word of recall to do the "recurring BBEG" theme.

On 2.&3. Examples, by the pcs you listed:
Half-Elf Wizard Necromancer 8 (prohibited Enchantment & Abjuration)
STRENGTH: can cast negative energy spells like enfeeblement, exhaustion and enervation. BBEG defense: death ward, or item with globe of invulnerability, or spell resistance spell.
WEAKNESS:
Low fort save and hps. BBEG offense So maybe a ranged touch cause critical wounds with a spectral hand item would greatly impair the Necromancer. Or touch of idiocy via some domain or item....(anything highly frightening, but not necessarily permanent...).
Or, put silence spells on created undead minions and have them move close to the wizard...

Elf Rogue 8
STRENGTH: can sneak, the BBEG has likely not high spot/listen. BBEG defense: armour of fortification may be a bit too expensive (maybe better some fear-radiating armour?). Get some method of concealment and blind-fight feat for the BBEG and sneaks (barring true strike effects) are no longer a problem. Also, anti-life shell can be a great idea to be able to do the big hahaha in the beginning of combat without being interrupted by some charging pcs.
WEAKNESS: low fort save, low will save. Maybe a hold monster tossed into the rogue's direction will get him out of combat quickly.

Aasimar Psion Telepath 7 (very non-combat oriented)
Don't know this class well enough (though the BBEG will!:smallsmile: ). Maybe as per the necromancer.

Tiefling Monk 6/Wizard 1
STRENGTH: fast movement, high saves, probably enlarged and trip attacks. BBEG defense: freedom of movement buff up, rightous might (cast with quickened divine favor in combat for more effect!) giving edge in direct combat and trip. Vigor spell up, antilife shell probably still up.
WEAKNESS: negate lower offensive potential as above, summon allies to encircle monk and get him into normal melee, preventing his movement and combat tricks. Also, debuff all his (lower-casting-level) spells with a simple dispel magic.

Human Fighter 8 (longbow specialist)
STRENGTH: can attack from afar, continuously. BBEG defense: concealment up (as vs the rogue), wind wall possibly (though not that reliable), vigor.
WEAKNESS: summon allies to get the archer into melee.

Human Cleric of Kord 8 (NPC, human shield & healing)
STRENGTH: can heal / help vs magical effects on his comrades, melee threat.
WEAKNESS: low reflex save (entangle effect maybe or flame strike) Some breath weapon effect for the cleric of Tiamat?). Unholy stuff. Bolster undead summoned to attack the cleric.

Half-Orc Barbarian 8
STRENGTH: charge&smash. BBEG defense: antilife shell, concealment stopping any charge.
WEAKNESS: will save (dominate person in spell storing ring? or wand?) Nothing quite as evil as turning one of the ). Hold Monster/person. Symbol of persuasion...

Tibbit Swashbuckler 8
As per mixture of barbarian and monk.

Additionally, I recommend to read the first dragonlance novel about how a higher-level evil cleric BBEG in a similar setting (the dragon highlord Verminaard) was fighting a group of 5-6 heroes (highly atmospheric; basically in the end only the group's cleric dispel magic helped, but that fight was also at much lower level..).

EDIT: basicallly, the art is to make the BBEG appear very powerful, but all of his attacks vs the pcs impair them greatly but do not create permanent knock-outs, nor should they kill them immediately (hence minions, or debuffing spells first). You need to time the dramatic sequence of combat well in advance, saving the big stuff for the climatic last rounds of combat.

- Giacomo

Kizara

2008-04-12, 04:56 AM

I'm working on the BBEG for my campaign who is going to be a Cleric, probably around level 10. I'm not too familiar with the specifics of ClericZilla, but I have a large group of PCs and the final fight with this guy will probably be after all his minions are dead, so I was wondering how to make him as effective a challenge as possible.

Basically, what are the best combos a level 10 Cleric can pull off? And what kinds of Cleric strategies work against large groups of PCs?

1) Human Cleric of Zarus (Races of Destiny). Domains strength and war (there are even better ones, but these are hardly 'out to left field'.)
Zarus' favorite weapon is the greatsword.

2) Feats: Extra Turning, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, DMM (quicken spell), Cleave.

3) Important Equip: +1 keen greatsword, +6 periphat of wis, +6 cloak of cha, +1 mod/heavy fort fullplate, ring of counterspells (dispel magic), necklace of prayer beads. If you want to abuse the MiC, there's some more insane options there, but this keeps it in the DMG. And yes, use Great Magic Weapon/Vestment to pump the base enchantment on these.

4) Pre-buffing: Use the necklace of prayer beads "bead of karma" to increase your caster level, and then cast the following: Endurance (note this stacks with Righteous Might, as does Divine Power's strength boost), Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Divine Favor, Grillion's Blessing (SpC), True Seeing, Shield of Faith (effectively a free ring of protect), Vigor, Crown of Smiting, Divine Power, Righteous Might. Also, use Wind Wall if they have any archers that you are worried about.

Pre-buffing is your frieeend.

5) Combat tactics:

Use Blade of Blood and liberally power attack, focus on the casters first. Make sure you outright kill them with large amounts of power attacking. If the casters have defensive buffs up already, use Quickened Dispel Magic and your higher caster level (remember the beads) to bring them down.

Use a Quickened Cure Critical Wounds if you take any notable damage.

Remember to use Crown of Smiting's +2 bonus on one attack, and then expend it for the +8 bonus on the next one.

Honestly, if you do this right you should be dumping 60-70 damage hits without alot of problem. Your buffs should be really hard to take down with your increased caster level and the ring of counterspells, and you should be resilant to anything the party can throw at you with moderate AC, good saves, lots of immunities and the ability to heal yourself.

Save your Quicken actions to primarily heal yourself, burning through quickened Cure Serious/Cure Critical Wounds as needed. If you don't need your quickend action to do this, use Blade of Blood instead.

EDIT: Regarding CoV's post, indeed the cleric needs to have at least as many cleric levels as the PCs, before the template. How much does Half-Dragon add to CR anyways? 1?

So, if you bump his cleric level to 13 (with lvl 12 party, that's a CR 14 fight, certinally reasonable) you have some more options open to you.

For one, Quickened Heal or Harm are amazing. Heal basically restores you to full and removes any negative status, where Harm can basically take someone out if they fail the save.

Blade Barrier is a nice crowd control effect, with the continuous area damage helping to counter the numbers advantage.

Quickened Blasphemy is going to be a great opener, but shouldn't kill anyone since the HD difference won't be enough.

Destruction is a possibility, if you have someone likely to fail the save.

Bigby's Grasping Hand (str domain) would be nicely disruptive and hinder their abilty to swarm him.

Power Word Stun/Blind would also be great against the non-barbarian types.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-12, 05:25 AM

1) Hard to tell the optimization level of your PCs, but I'd recommend ignoring most of Gia's analysis of their weaknesses and strengths since he knows practically nothing about non-core material. Alternatively, if they have not used any other sources and that multitude of ways to cover their weaknesses he might be right.

You should be a better judge of their weaknesses then any of us here.

2) Most people here seemed to have completely missed the fact that you intend for the party to level up to 12 before facing this character.

3) The Half Dragon template is useful for a zilla, but far inferior to even two cleric levels. Don't make the mistake of thinking that it will make up for the difference in numbers.

4) If you are going to face 8 level 12 PCs, you need a minimum of 13 Cleric levels, probably 14 is good. One thing that many people don't think about is that even if we tell you exactly how to build a superzilla, you still won't build him as pimped out as we tell you, because you have no experience with it. Ignore this if you are a much better optimizer then your PCs.

5) 8 of them is a problem. Because of the economy of action, you need to be several levels higher, but because of the geometric progression of what spells and money get you, too high and he becomes unstoppable. There isn't much of a sweet spot.

6) As for my personal recommendation:

lvl 14-15 Cleric who cast Planar Binding before they got there (or animated undead, but I like Binding better for balance.)

Any outsider that can, through SLAs, occupy half the PCs for a couple rounds. But have him be good at melee too.

Have the Cleric using most of his spells for buffing, defensive and offensive. I'd probably say use DMM. Maybe have a ring of counterspells with Dispel Magic, it's a good reward for PCs anyway.

Make extensive use of spells that simulate item effects, so that you don't have to give out tons of treasure, but you can still have a more effective character. Superior resistance, Greater Magic Weapon on mundane Weapons, Greater Magic Vestments on mundane Armor. Use the NPCs wealth to give him other things, perhaps a Bead of Karma he used to buff. Another good reward for PCs, too bad your only Divine caster is an NPC. I'd also say make sure he has Spell Resistance up, since you want to reduce the chances of a lucky Wizard or Psion spell just taking him out of the Fight.

Deathward and Freedom of Movement too. Just every Defensive buff you can find.

With the outsider and a strong suit of persisted buffs, you can split the fight into more manageable portions. 4-5 vs the BBEG, 3-4 vs the outsider. The outsider won't last very long, but have him toss out some disable magic while he's there.

I would have the Cleric fight in melee for a while, but then after he's downed or injured the three melee fighters (I'm including the Cleric) start disabling them with a few spells. Start with downing the Bow fighter with a non-Enchantment, since they'll probably have Prot-Evil up.

By this point he should be about down anyway from hits to his average AC. Hopefully the casters can feel like the contributed somehow, mostly the problems is that the casters either completely defeat him on their own, or do nothing, unless they break out dispells, though that isn't likely to be too effective, it will at least provide an oppurtunity to have some effect without owning him.

Solo

2008-04-13, 01:04 AM

You are advised to listen to the advice of the reputable optimizers who visit the forums.

If you need pointers as to who is reputable or not, I will PM you my personal list.

greenknight

2008-04-13, 03:07 AM

4) Pre-buffing: Use the necklace of prayer beads "bead of karma" to increase your caster level

So, if you bump his cleric level to 13 (with lvl 12 party, that's a CR 14 fight, certinally reasonable) you have some more options open to you.

Quickened Blasphemy is going to be a great opener, but shouldn't kill anyone since the HD difference won't be enough.

Now if you follow that advice, you won't quite kill the party, but now everyone is paralyzed for 1d10 minutes, with no save. That's enough to hit everyone with a Coup-de-Grace, which is almost certainly going to lead to a TPK (or a railroad capture from the player's perspective, if you just capture the PCs). Of course, if the Cleric also has an Orange Ioun Stone (or the Evil Domain) you wouldn't even need to do that, since then it's instant death with no save.

Unless that's the kind of thing you're looking for, you don't want this Cleric to be using the best possible tactics. Even a moderately optimized Cleric using decent tactics is going to be a scary thing if used against an unoptimized party. The best thing you could do is get a copy of their character sheets and before you actually run the battle with the players do a test run to see what will happen if they just follow their normal tactics.

Sir Giacomo

2008-04-13, 12:21 PM

Solo

2008-04-13, 12:26 PM

1. How do you get the idea that I know "practically nothing about non-core material"? If I say that I do not wish to discuss balance aspects beyond core it involves a bit of stretching to conclude that I know practically nothing about non-core.

You don't give the impression of being that good with core material, let alone non core material, to some people.

3. If you think that the OP needs non-core advice, why then is the only non-core advice you give that of using DMM and superior resistance?

You don't really need much else, do you?:smallamused:

FlyMolo

2008-04-13, 12:48 PM

This could an interesting and atmospheric encounter. Play up the dragony bit.

Consider applying the dragonborn(dragon magic) template. Breath weapon, tail, some other minor benefits.

Some dragony allies would be perfect, as well as making the CR softer. A soft CR encounter is not a hydra encounter, i.e. one that destroys the party unless they have improved sunder. That's a hard CR. Homebrew up a dragonpact, from Draconomicon. He can ride a minor drake or something.

And none of this has anything to do with actual clericy bits. Divine Power, Shield of Faith, Righteous Smitage or whatever, give him a lance, and generally raise hell.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-13, 01:09 PM

1. How do you get the idea that I know "practically nothing about non-core material"? If I say that I do not wish to discuss balance aspects beyond core it involves a bit of stretching to conclude that I know practically nothing about non-core.

But it involves no stretching at all to take notice of your complete lack of knowledge about almost all non-core mechanics mentioned by others. The fact that you assume weaknesses that almost no character actually has when including just the Complete series is a perfect example of this.

2. The classes of the pc and the intended BBEG suggest a large use of core material.

The classes of the BBEG suggests someone looking for a powerful BBEG, possibly flavorful. The classes of the PCs indicate several expansions into non-core material such as Psions, the Enlightened Fist PrC, and a Tibbit Swashbuckler, which doesn't seem very Core to me.

That means Complete Warrior, and Complete Arcane, not to mention Psionics.

3. If you think that the OP needs non-core advice, why then is the only non-core advice you give that of using DMM and superior resistance?:smallsmile:

I did not say that he needs non-core advice, only that he would be a much better evaluator of the PCs strengths and weaknesses, seeing as he can actually take stock of the many ways they might have covered the weaknesses you supposed.

In fact I tried to limit my advice to as general ideas as possible, precisely because it can be applied to whatever books he owns. My spell examples were very specifically examples of the types of spells, rather then a list of ones to cast. This is because I am firm proponent of the idea that if you can't build the character yourself, you shouldn't play it. And this applies to DMs and their NPCs as well.

4. Having said all that, indeed I overlooked the BBEG having to face a level 12 group eventually. So this means an even more challenging task for a DM to keep the final fight challenging, entertaining and atmospheric. Vs 8 level 12 characters, the BBEG should be around EL 15 (= perhaps access to level 8 spells) imo to even stand a chance fighting alone (or needing to summon allies from his class abilities alone).

Indeed, I agree with you, in opposition to most posters here, that the Cleric is not going to have a field day on the party without some significant support, excepting the use of Blasphemy with a Bead of Karma, which is quite honestly and insta-win against an all good/neutral party.

That is why I suggested using one of his spells to bring in an Outsider appropriate to the Cleric's goals/motivations. Which is, I'm guessing based on your previous habit of sniping comments, what you were referring to in your nonsensical comment about summoning allies from class abilities.

Oh, and while you are reading this, Please take not of this fact: I know you like to talk about how awesome Monk grapplers are, but you have no evidence that this Monk took Improved Grapple as a feat at all. Even if he did, and even if he cast Enlarge Person on himself, the idea that a Half-Dragon (+8 racial to Str) Cleric with a higher HD then the Monk/Wizard who is under the effects of Divine Power and Righteous Might would need Freedom of Movement to escape the deadly grapple is hysterical.

Not to mention summoning monsters to prevent him from doing his movement game, as if Monks were actually effective moving around the field of battle against a single opponent.

Solo

2008-04-13, 01:20 PM

I know you like to talk about how awesome Monk grapplers are

We really could use an actual build to show us how it is done

Eldariel

2008-04-13, 01:30 PM

Solo

2008-04-13, 01:31 PM

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-13, 01:39 PM

BBEG with Blasphemy isn't really unbeatable; all the PCs have the capability to prepare action to either disrupt casting or counter the spell. Either way, with collaboration, the PCs should easily prevent casting of any too dangerous spells.

Well since we are talking about a CL of 19ish, they have no chance of countering it unless designed to do so (none of them are), and disrupting is all well and good if any of them (Psion is the best choice) can actually do enough damage in a single standard action, but with Spell Resistance that can't be overcome, and a very tough AC he has a very good chance of not being hit at all by the disruption.

Not to mention that if he isn't standing adjacent to the Barbarian, no one is likely to do enough damage to disrupt the spell, you know, the one that instantly no-save kills the entire party.

Eldariel

2008-04-13, 01:42 PM

Assuming, of course, that they have the time to do so.

Blasphemy really doesn't have a long range so they'll be rolling Initiative and Cleric Init doesn't tend to be especially incredible as they don't tend to have much Dex (with Cha being their third stat generally), especially since players have 5-6 rolls to beat it. It seems extremely unlikely that the Cleric would act first, so the players would have the time. Also, if the players are aware of the threat of powerful AoE spells, they could spread out to avoid all being hit. Finally, if they have Freedom of Movement (Rings, the spell cast or any other way), they won't be paralysed nor dazed so they'll only take the Weakness-effect, unless the CL exceeds their HD by 10 (level 15 + 4 from beads still needs 3 more CLs to be instant kill).

All in all, it's a sort of gamble as it can kinda screw the game up, but it's certainly not an automatic conclusion for the fight.

greenknight

2008-04-13, 05:05 PM

they won't be paralysed nor dazed so they'll only take the Weakness-effect, unless the CL exceeds their HD by 10 (level 15 + 4 from beads still needs 3 more CLs to be instant kill).

You've got this wrong. Up to Caster Level -5 gives the Paralyzed/weakened/ dazed effect, if it goes higher than that it's an instant kill (although it doesn't really define what happens when the difference is 11+). So if the characters are 12th level and the BBEG has a CL of 19, they're dead unless they have some way to protect themselves from this spell. And BTW, if you go by RAW, not being able to hear the Blasphemy isn't a defence (although it should be IMO). Compare the wording of Blashpemy to Holy Word and you should see the difference.

As you mentioned, the other thing the PCs could try is being too spread out for all of them to be affected by the spell. I'm not sure how practical that will be since they will probably have to go to the BBEG, who will probably have some warning that they are coming. And the spell does have an 80' diameter, so they might have to spread out pretty far. Even further if the BBEG happens to have DMM:Widen Spell.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-13, 05:21 PM

Okay, everyone, here's a minor update:

The location of the battle is fixed. It will be in a large room in the heart of the Temple of Tiamat (so no flying around on a dragon's back). The PCs are supposed to have their showdown against the dragon before this, anyway. Also, the BBEG may have a couple devils or abishai with him, but I didn't figure on them contributing that much. Although, since the party is so large, I will probably increase and/or upgrade them a bit. (It's worked pretty well so far.) The BBEG's primary equipment (weapons & armor) are also already decided (some of that cool dragoncraft stuff from Draconomicron), but his other items are less flavorful and I could switch them around a bit.

Hmm... I dunno, based on the discussion thus far, I doubt I will be resorting to Blasphemy or Beads of Karma here. Although I may keep that Blasphemy in reserve, just in case the PCs start winning and get too overconfident. So I guess the best way to be challenging to the party would be by being prepared (buffing up, negating their best attacks, and making them really pull out all the stops), while having a relatively good (but not overpoweringly good) offense to give the players that little sense of urgency. Right now I am liking Anti-Life Shell, Wind Wall, and Unhallow/Freedom of Movement as a basis for the defense setup. Deathward, Spell Resistance, and Protection from Chaos will probably make the buff list, as well as the afore mentioned Divine Power and Righteous Might (of course).

Since this will be a campaign climax moment, I want the PCs to have to work hard to achieve the BBEG's defeat, and the players to feel that sense of accomplishment from beating the bad guy. Y'know?

EDIT: I'm not sure, but I think Blasphemy's area is probably large enough to fill up most or all of the room where the fight takes place. I'll have to check that.

EDIT2: Yeah, it'll fill the whole room.

Azerian Kelimon

2008-04-13, 05:38 PM

Boots of striding and springing are excellent, period. 60' move will throw your players terribly off.

I'd also consider homebrewing a continual item of vigor or greater vigor. The guy will seem to be The Terminator with it, since he'll be healing part of the damage he takes every round, making for a tense fight as the party tries to inflict vast quantities of damage.

You might want to put Vibrating (That's the one, I believe) on the cleric's weapon, too. Sonic damage is almost never resisted, and the extra punch will add up over time, specially if homebrew the item of vigor I recommended above.

And get a cloak of resitance. The best you can. If the BBEG loses in the first round to a save or suck, it sucks...for you.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-13, 05:58 PM

Or he could just cast Superior Resistance and Greater Vigor. Seeing as those are on his list and have plenty long enough durations that don't hand the PCs an item of Greater Vigor to trade around after every fight and to leave on their tank the rest of the time.

Azerian Kelimon

2008-04-13, 06:02 PM

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-13, 06:07 PM

That's why I suggested an item. Better give the PC's a collective reward for the effort, right?

And if that doesn't fit, he can always use the Combustion fake homebrewed spell: Once you're down, everyone 10' + 1/2 your CL takes 1d6/2 level+1/level of damage and that way he takes the items with him.

Well I don't recommend making up homebrewed spells to solve problems entirely created by homebrewed items. I just skip the homebrewing entirely and have him cast spells. And you can give the items that are much better and serve him better for his limited wealth. There's no reason to make up an item to duplicate a spell he can cast, and no reason to force his Wealth down the same tired paths of +5 to resistance when he can cast a spell to do that.

I already suggested some better more interesting items for him to reward the PCs with upon his demise.

Eldariel

2008-04-13, 06:55 PM

You've got this wrong. Up to Caster Level -5 gives the Paralyzed/weakened/ dazed effect, if it goes higher than that it's an instant kill (although it doesn't really define what happens when the difference is 11+). So if the characters are 12th level and the BBEG has a CL of 19, they're dead unless they have some way to protect themselves from this spell. And BTW, if you go by RAW, not being able to hear the Blasphemy isn't a defence (although it should be IMO). Compare the wording of Blashpemy to Holy Word and you should see the difference.

From SRD:
"...

HD Effect
Equal to caster level Dazed
Up to caster level –1 Weakened, dazed
Up to caster level –5 Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
Up to caster level –10 Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed
The effects are cumulative and concurrent.
No saving throw is allowed against these effects.

..."

If it worked as you suggested, Blasphemy would not do anything once your CL exceeds the HD of target by over 10. The table clearly states that if you have HD equal to up to the number given there, the given effect happens. The given HD for killed is CL-10. Of course, they'll probably have Death Wards up anyways, but that's not a given, and it doesn't matter anyways given the way it's worded.

greenknight

2008-04-13, 07:40 PM

From SRD:

How about you read what you quoted. Let's look at it entry by entry:

{table]Equal to caster level | Dazed[/table]

This one is pretty clear: If HD=CL, then subject is dazed.

{table]Up to caster level –1 | Weakened, dazed [/table]

Another easy one: If HD=CL-1, the subject is weakened and dazed.

{table]Up to caster level –5 | Paralyzed, weakened, dazed[/table]

And it follows that anything from CL-2 to CL-5 is Paralyzed, weakened and dazed.

{table]Up to caster level –10 | Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed[/table]

So guess what happens from CL-6 to CL-10?

If it worked as you suggested, Blasphemy would not do anything once your CL exceeds the HD of target by over 10.

Again you're incorrect. What happens at CL-11 is undefined, not "nothing happens". Maybe the subject given a fate worse than death (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/671.html)?

Eldariel

2008-04-13, 07:50 PM

How about you read what you quoted. Let's look at it entry by entry:

{table]Equal to caster level | Dazed[/table]

This one is pretty clear: If HD=CL, then subject is dazed.

{table]Up to caster level –1 | Weakened, dazed [/table]

Another easy one: If HD=CL-1, the subject is weakened and dazed.

Correct.

{table]Up to caster level –5 | Paralyzed, weakened, dazed[/table]

And it follows that anything from CL-2 to CL-5 is Paralyzed, weakened and dazed.

It's a table. Hence, the entry means 'When affected creature's HD is up to CL-5'. It's the standard English syntax. 'Up to' means 'as much or lower'. So when affected creature's HD is equal to or less than CL-1, he's weakened and dazed. Once it's 5 or less, he's weakened, dazed and paralyzed.

{table]Up to caster level –10 | Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed[/table]

You're reading the syntax wrong. You're reading like it was a list, with each line being a continuation to the last one. We're talking about a table so each line is an entity unto itself and thus must be read on its own merits. "Up to X" syntax again means "Equal to or less than" and that's the table for HD, so "Up to caster level -10" means "If affected creature's HD is equal to or less than CL-10, following happens:". I don't really see what's confusing you.

So guess what happens from CL-6 to CL-10? Again you're incorrect. What happens at CL-11 is undefined, not "nothing happens". Maybe the subject given a fate worse than death (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/671.html)?

Points for the link. It's great. But that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. Hell, read what you're writing. "CL-11 isn't defined". WTF? Wizards has given the book an errata multiple times, they wouldn't have overlooked something like that for 10 years. Not only does the syntax clearly imply that it applies for HD of the given value or less, but logic supports that. I can't really see any way in which you could argue against it.

Chronos

2008-04-13, 08:06 PM

Of course, they'll probably have Death Wards up anyways, but that's not a given, and it doesn't matter anyways given the way it's worded.Actually, great though Death Ward is, it won't actually help in this case. Despite the fact that Blasphemy can kill, it's not actually a death effect, and there's no indication that it uses negative energy, either.

On the other hand, Silence can be a very good spell to use against an enemy spellcaster (if your own spellcasters can stay back out of the area, or prepare silenced spells), and that will provide a complete defense against Blasphemy or the like.

hylian chozo

2008-04-13, 09:57 PM

I personally like undead themed clerics. My favorite tactic is an unhallow (freedom of movement) followed by a widened desecrate in a room full of undead. Together, that gives a -10 to turning, +4 to rebuking, +2 to attack rolls , and +2 hp per HD. If the cleric was undead it would work much better, but it works fine for undead minions trying to soften up the party. Once the cleric gets into melee the party should be fairly weakened.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-13, 10:39 PM

On the other hand, Silence can be a very good spell to use against an enemy spellcaster (if your own spellcasters can stay back out of the area, or prepare silenced spells), and that will provide a complete defense against Blasphemy or the like.

No, it only protects against Holy Word, not against Blasphemy/Dictum.

Yakk

2008-04-13, 10:47 PM

Why use PC-builds for NPCs?

I'd vote for some fun DM-plot cheese.

Phase 1: Minions!
Nominally to delay the PCs, but really to soak up spells and the like.

When the PCs burst into the room, the human-looking cleric flees and leaves the PCs to fight minions. Undead, Summoned critters, etc.

Phase 2: Abomination!
The PCs beat the minions. However, this has given the Cleric time to finish the ritual.

The Cleric is now an Abomination. In a lich-like ritual, he fused himself with a Dragon egg. He's Large sized, wings, claws, mouth.

The Cleric gets 1 magical standard action, 1 physical standard action, and 1 move action per round (makes up for 8 PCs), and two will saves against every mind-effecting spell.

The Dragonic body isn't well coordinated yet, so the spells and melee don't line up targetting that well.

Finally, if on it's round the body is in a bad situation, it can consume itself in fire and reform at a random spot in the room. This restores no HP and costs a mental action. Destroying a macguffen that flares when he does this will prevent this from working.

(Change HD to Dragon-HD (d12, full BaB, good saves, etc), grant a claw-claw-bite and wing buffet actions, breath weapon, improved grab with bite (which lets the breath weapon have no save), boost stats from large size and half-dragon template, etc).

Phase 3: Rebirth!

Remember Lich-like? Well, when the body is destroyed, a Flame Strike goes off centered on the corpse.

1 round delay in which nothing happens.

Then Blasphemy radiates out from the altar (sufficient to daze/weaken the party), and flames arc from the corpse. They form a flame dragon, then an flash of light, and the Cleric reforms in his human form. No buffs, min HP (but the PCs are dazed, so the Cleric heals himself).

Maybe with dragon-wings, flames arcing around him (flame-shield effect, fire subtype)?

The cleric says something villianous, and roll initiative.

To finally defeat the Cleric, the Altar must be destroyed (and depending on the state of the party, the Cleric may or may not stay alive and have to be defeated as well).

...

Sure, I used half of the cliches in the book. :)

The point is that using PC-cheese is mostly pointless. With enough cheese, a "CR appropriate" encounter will be a wipe.

Having an opponent with enough HP to soak the incoming damage, who is bothered but not defeated by status effects, who has enough actions to do something against 8 PCs...

Less cheesy than "I cast X and win". Can't be duplicated by PCs (if they don't sell their souls to tiamat). More memorable -- remember that cleric who turned himself into a Dragon? And about has much effort to balance as making a cleric cheesy by the rules...

2 MacGuffins (the altar and the teleport thing (maybe a huge crystal?)) for PCs to spot/figure out.

Sorting algorithm of evil.
Badass monster form.
Ultimate form is human-esque.
And 2 MacGuffins. :)

Chronos

2008-04-13, 11:28 PM

No, it only protects against Holy Word, not against Blasphemy/Dictum.That's true of Deafness, but Silence still works anyway. From Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm):
This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.
And from Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm):
Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]
Since Blasphemy is a sonic spell, Silence stops it.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-14, 05:46 AM

@Yakk: That's a really interesting idea, but my BBEG is already a half-dragon, and there's going to be something more interesting happening once he's killed.

And wow! I think this is my first thread to get to page 2! :smallbiggrin:

greenknight

2008-04-14, 06:32 AM

Not only does the syntax clearly imply that it applies for HD of the given value or less, but logic supports that. I can't really see any way in which you could argue against it.

I never considered that it works the way you're saying, but now you've pointed it out I think you're right. Even so, HD=CL-5 still leaves the PCs facing paralysis for 1d10 minutes, so unless they are able to counter it you're still looking at a TPK/Capture.

KillianHawkeye, you've mentioned this Cleric will be using the Half-Dragon template, but what do you plan on using as the base race?

Eldariel

2008-04-14, 06:58 AM

I never considered that it works the way you're saying, but now you've pointed it out I think you're right. Even so, HD=CL-5 still leaves the PCs facing paralysis for 1d10 minutes, so unless they are able to counter it you're still looking at a TPK/Capture.

Indeed, which is why I suggested Freedom of Movement in a variety of forms. They've got a Cleric with them, so they've got access to Freedom of Movement. If cast even on just the Cleric, there's the option of using Remove Paralysis to deal with the Paralysed-condition; it's a second level slot and the Cleric probably has a few to burn on such at that point of the game anyways.

Yakk

2008-04-14, 10:20 AM

Then steal from it.

A weaker Cleric 'zilla who has 2 actions per turn (1 physical, 1 mental) is better than a "I kill a player a turn" stronger one.

Making the Cleric immune to every status effect means that only damage matters, and that is boring. If the cleric is nigh-immune, as in low chance, the game can be ruined by a single bad roll.

So you want to make status effects do something less...

It needs lots of HP to stand up to the raw damage of 8 players if they decide to just pound on it. Ideally, you want to show that HP damage is doing something: you could even script "when it falls below X HP, you cut off an arm" type things.

There is some small point in building NPCs based off of PC-like rules, but at the same time this is a BBEG. The goal can be maximium fun, not maximium power and rules based construction.

But that is just me. :) I'd use the cleric-zilla PC tactics as a source of inspiration: when the game mechanics provides an answer that is good, use it. Magic that boosts the cleric up to good melee: use it. Blasphemy, aimed at a level that isn't "you lose": use it. Desecrated areas that grant the bad guys an advantage, etc.

But have Macguffens that should be discovered and destroyed in the fight. Building the fight around "the PCs should have freedom of movement prepared, or they are screwed" doesn't seem as interesting to me.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-14, 10:25 AM

If you are going to throw out all the rules and make up your own for every boss fight, why are you even playing D&D? Either follow the D&D rules of go find another game.

Yakk

2008-04-14, 11:14 AM

There are no hard rules for making monsters. There are guildlines.

So sure, use the guildlines. Pick pre-made monsters that have roughly the right CR, and see how they do (note that monster CR, as bad as it is, is more accurate than using NPC CR, especially after you use char-op tricks on the NPCs).

The rules of combat remain the same. Damage, status effects, DCs to accomplish tasks, etc. Spells can be counterspelled, etc etc. PCs pick from the splatbooks to build their own character concepts.

But you can and (dare I say) should be willing to create your own monsters or riffs on monsters. That is what D&D was designed for -- all of the monsters in the MM are examples of monsters that someone built over the ages, and the CRs are their best guess against a traditional party.

And I even stole mechanics from other D&D solutions. The "one mental, one physical" action was from a psi power, as was the double-will save.

You can play D&D using the official D&D pieces, and it can help if you can't think up balanced riffs on those pieces. I'm just saying you can also add riffs on the mechanics, and I think it would be easier to use invented tricks to balance a cleric-dragon being against 8 PCs (!) than using PC-based cleric zilla tactics.

The PC cleric-zilla will have problems surviving long enough to heal itself, has to be immune to every status effect the players can throw at it (which makes status effect spells useless, ala FF-video game-ism) or the fight ends very shortly (if the zilla has high but not unstoppable saves, then the fight can end on the first round, or on the 20th round, unreliably).

And PC offense strategies are based on eliminating NPCs in the min number of actions: which, if used right, leads to most of the party being taken out rather fast... that is rather boring for the players of the unlucky characters. And very unstable balance wise.

These usually aren't features you want in a BBEG.

Which is neater: every status effect bouncing, or casting HOLD PERSON, have it land, then the BBEG explodes in flame and appears on the other side of the room, mobile again?

"Everyone make a spot check" with declining difficulty each time it happens..

A BBEG that paralyzes 3/4 of your party on round one (as the alternative is being killed by the massed damage of 8 PCs), or one that laughs off of their blows, throwing characters around (literally), and tosses short-term crippling effects at casters, until a strong strike cuts off his arm?

Use D&D mechanics. Damage, status effects, etc. But instead of immunity, mitigate debuffs on BBEGs -- make them matter, and have a way to eliminate the mitigation. Balance HP based on the number of PCs attacking it. Make HP damage do things before the HP meter runs out (so raw damage characters aren't just a timer), as for a 6 round fight the BBEG needs LOTS of HP. Avoid "insta-death" and "instant-suck" effects, and instead have short-term "****, that's annoying" effects.

You have an ~1 round per PC time budget: the NPC can nearly take out a PC every round, but ideally make it possible to distract the NPC or prevent the it from finishing the job.

This is just a suggestion, as an alternative to building a wargame opponent. D&D is fun as a wargame, and as a reality simulator but I as a personal preference like playing it as a world with dramatic logic being as important as simulation logic.

And I'm just suggesting to use some dramatic-based logic approaches to a BBEG fight: instead of a balanced fight, a tough fight, a wipe fight, or a fight based strictly on the "build a NPC and/or monster" guildlines, build it on dramatic logic.

Predict PC actions (debuffs, spells, etc). Make them matter, but not break the encounter.

Predict PC damage output.

Find effects, from the cleric spell list and from official feat sources, that hinder the players and/or almost-screw a single player.

Taylor melee-range damage output around the BBEG to-hit and player AC/HP so that it takes players down at a sufficiently scary rate, but that can be sustained over 6 rounds.

Taylor AOE damage output to cause pain to the non-melee classes.

Figure out things that the BBEG can do to hinder, but not take out, the spellcasters.

Figure out PC damage output. Make sure they cannot one-round the BBEG. Make sure the BBEG has healing and HP sufficient to stand up for enough rounds of PC pounding.

Grab at least a few dramatic tropes to throw at the players. This can be used to bring the fight along (things to destroy in the room, things to target on the bad guy, notice mechanics that make it more and more likely to figure out).

This is a different kind of work than PC optimization. PC optimization is about winning as quickly and as cheaply as possible. And you are the DM -- you can always "win" a fight. Instead, I'm saying aim for a different win...

Lucyfur

2008-04-14, 11:21 AM

If you are going to throw out all the rules and make up your own for every boss fight, why are you even playing D&D? Either follow the D&D rules of go find another game.

I love it when my DM makes boss fights special and unexpected. You sound bitter.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-14, 11:31 AM

I love it when my DM makes boss fights special and unexpected. You sound bitter.

I love it when my DM makes boss fights special and unexpected within the rules instead of making things up off the top of his head. It's cooler when you can figure it out. It's cooler when it makes sense. And it's cooler when it is part of a consistent universe.

See Gregory House's explanation of what is cool about magic tricks.

Chronicled

2008-04-14, 12:12 PM

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-14, 12:21 PM

Yakk's words are wise. +1 for each of his posts in this thread.

@ Chosen: Yakk is still using the rules when creating his boss fight. However, giving a monster an ability not printed in any sourcebook doesn't mean you're making things up off the top of your head.

The ability to change your attack bonus at will, the ability to negate all status conditions that you aren't immune to, and Schroedinger's HP aren't giving it un-printed abilities. They are playing outside the scope of any real rules.

Chronicled

2008-04-14, 12:34 PM

The ability to change your attack bonus at will, the ability to negate all status conditions that you aren't immune to, and Schroedinger's HP aren't giving it un-printed abilities. They are playing outside the scope of any real rules.

There wasn't any mention of attack bonus or HP being changed willy-nilly. Negating the status conditions can be mechanically translated as several Greater Dispel Magics and a Restoration on the BBEG. The BBEG's got two custom items (McGuffins), after all. Would you object to the Altar of Greater Dispel/Restoration as an item?

Use D&D mechanics.
Perhaps you missed this sentence.

Torebo

2008-04-14, 01:13 PM

The most awesome boss-fight ever.

...can I play in your game?

Also, I'm so looking forward to 4e's concept of "Solo" monsters that makes this sort of thing much easier to fit into the 'RAW' that Chosen of Vecna is so worried about in this case.

Not that I don't like all my numbers to add up somewhere down the line but damn...with some good background music and the DM yelling "poof!" or "woosh!" the first couple of times the teleport-mojo went off...I know I'd be talking about this fight more often than "hey, remember that time we fought that guy that did that stuff?"

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-14, 01:57 PM

There wasn't any mention of attack bonus or HP being changed willy-nilly. Negating the status conditions can be mechanically translated as several Greater Dispel Magics and a Restoration on the BBEG. The BBEG's got two custom items (McGuffins), after all. Would you object to the Altar of Greater Dispel/Restoration as an item?

1) No the HP doesn't change, he starts with 12 and it goes down by two per round no matter what the players do.

2) Yes I would object to an Altar of Greater Dispel and Restoration that isn't sentient and the PCs never get to see, because it isn't an Altar it's DM plot bamfing.

Perhaps you missed this sentence.

I think you shouldn't kill people. But you should definitely kill anyone you don't like.

Does the first sentence mean that I never uttered the second?

Saying "use D&D mechanics" except here, here, here, and here. Isn't using D&D mechanics.

Solo

2008-04-14, 02:02 PM

I think you shouldn't kill people. But you should definitely kill anyone you don't like.

Not contradictory if you think the only people who are people are the ones who talk and think like you.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-14, 02:03 PM

much easier to fit into the 'RAW' that Chosen of Vecna is so worried about in this case.

All the old dismiss any concerns about the DM Fiatting his way through encounters in ways that deprive the game of any consistency and render moot all the rules that the players have been using to evaluate the consequences of their actions as petty RAW concerns.

You want to change the rules? Change the rules. And then tell the players the new rules. If you can't explain them to the players without being called a ****, you shouldn't use them.

If the only way to explain the rules is:
DM: He bamfs away from where he just stood, stunned.
Player: How did he do that.
DM: Well I don't want you to win yet.
Player: Okay, I ready an action to recast that spell after you've determined that he has lived long enough for us to be allowed to win.

The rules exist so that everyone has a real sense of what their actions mean, if the rules change for anything important, then the players actions no longer matter. If the DM lives for X rounds no matter what, then the players are just props for the DM to play with.

elliott20

2008-04-14, 02:05 PM

nevermind, just read your follow up

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-14, 02:09 PM

Not contradictory if you think the only people who are people are the ones who talk and think like you.

I don't necessarily like people who are like me. People who are like me often piss me off.

so you're basically saying, because Yakk likes to use a homebrew thing here or there, he shouldn't bother playing D&D at all and should go play checkers instead?

No I'm saying he should play in a consistent world where their are rules and they determine what your actions do, and not in one where the same action has a different effect sometimes not based on the abilities of your enemy, or the result of a die roll, but based on how the GM feels today.

Every time I throw a baseball, it goes in the right direction, not always the same distance, but the right direction. If the next time I throw a baseball it stops, turns around. Then explodes into a thousand pieces to reform behind me, I'm not going to know what actions are safe to perform, because the universe will have ceased to make sense.

Solo

2008-04-14, 02:11 PM

I don't necessarily like people who are like me. People who are like me often piss me off.

*Sigh*

Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

elliott20

2008-04-14, 02:12 PM

Solo, I can. But that's only because I have a delightfully over-active imagination and a helluva lot of LSD in my pocket.

Vecna: Well, there's the blatant "bamf! he's gone" DM fiat, and then there's giving a monster an extra ability here or there that gives him a slight edge. What you're talking about is really an issue of rules as written vs. rules as established through play.

A GM that just randomly and arbitrarily gives a monster a new ability mid-fight just so he can very obnoxiously say to his players: 'you guys don't deserve this win'? that's bad. But what if it was something along the lines of 'he has previously set up an escape route that he will now use'?

Solo

2008-04-14, 02:13 PM

You people should get in touch with Pocahontas and all her little woodland friends.

Chronicled

2008-04-14, 02:20 PM

Response

And yet, the end purpose of D&D is to have fun, which I believe Yakk's advice helps with significantly. I normally run what's essentially a tactical wargame, but I don't mind giving monsters abilities they aren't written up with--before the fight starts, mind you. I also don't think it's wrong to flex the rules for the players to have an "epic" moment.

Ex: After my RL group's paladin did a leaping smiting charge off his boar to attack a wounded BBEG ghost, just barely making each roll and exactly hitting the ghost's AC, he got unlucky with the miss chance. Well, rather than have the player's biggest moment in the campaign thus far end up in an inglorious whiff, I asked one of the other players if the "holy damage" from a smite didn't bypass the miss chance. The player caught on and agreed that it did, and the paladin's player destroyed the ghost, getting kudos for a clever method of attack that was just lucky enough to work. Yes, I could have said, "Oh, you miss"--I already had for several other attacks. But that wouldn't have been fun for him or for the group in this case--as it was, they were talking about his "epic jump" for the rest of the night.

elliott20

2008-04-14, 02:20 PM

That blocky new-age history revisionist?!? hell no!

Yakk

2008-04-14, 03:15 PM

1) No the HP doesn't change, he starts with 12 and it goes down by two per round no matter what the players do.

Huh? He has d12 HD, (with enough bonus HD/con added on so that he will be a challenge). You take the damage output that the players can produce into account in order to tailor the fight for a 6 to 8 round fight.

You do this before the fight, as a matter of pre-fight balancing.

2) Yes I would object to an Altar of Greater Dispel and Restoration that isn't sentient and the PCs never get to see, because it isn't an Altar it's DM plot bamfing.

Actually it should be in the description of the room. It should be detectable via magic senses, it should be destroyable, and it should (dramatically) indicate that it is being used when it goes off, so the players can notice it and deal with it.

The intent is that the players find the MacGuffen and deal with it, that it become more and more likely to find it as the fight goes on, and that if they ignore/miss some of them they can still win.

And it is supposed to be a replacement for "the Cleric is pre-buffed with ridiculous caster-level spells that grant immunity to every status effect you can toss at him, and/or has ridiculously high resists", which is the alternative path to make a fight that can be expected to last as long as 6 rounds against 8 PCs.

Some more RAW stuff:
Knockback and Knockdown feats. Having PCs be knocked flying and prone when he claws them would be fun!

It is, on the other hand, hard to pull that off with cleric level of featism.

Still, a large-sized dragon being jumping into the middle of the group, clawing two members sending them flying to the ground, then biting the third and holding it in his mouth...

Even if it doesn't do that much damage, that NPC has just managed to look cool, and caused annoying-yet-not-game-ending problems for 3/8 PCs.

I'm not saying to make this up on the spot, but rather plan an encounter. Give the NPC the abilities needed to make the encounter interesting before hand, instead of trying to build the NPC based off of PC-building rules, or merely by taking monsters from the MM and applying templates. If you try this in the fly, it is too hard to pull off.

The template approach is great for ideas, flavor, and most NPCs. But BBEG fights can be special without reducing the game to pure DM fiat.

That, and I can't think of a way for a ClericZilla to survive being beaten on for 6 to 8 rounds by a party of 8, without having the power to utterly destroy the entire party in 1 or 2 rounds.

I don't know a RAW way to deal with "oops, lost a save, fight over" other than massive immunities/insane resists, rendering the spells useless. (and iron heart surge, which also renders the spells useless)

And the action-debt from 8 players vs 1 NPC makes things extremely hard to balance as well, without the NPC taking out multiple players per action.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-14, 09:43 PM

@Yakk: I get what you're trying to say, but apparently there are people who didn't like the way you said it. Basically, it's about making the Big Battle more memorable by making the BBEG more interesting. I don't have a problem with figuring out something like that myself if I want to, but I kind of wanna finalize his build first. And I'm not opposed to giving a BBEG an ability that the players have never heard of before, so long as it fits.

KillianHawkeye, you've mentioned this Cleric will be using the Half-Dragon template, but what do you plan on using as the base race?

Hobgoblin.

I think you shouldn't kill people. But you should definitely kill anyone you don't like.

Not contradictory if you think the only people who are people are the ones who talk and think like you.

This is why I love reading Solo's posts. :smallwink:

Collin152

2008-04-14, 09:56 PM

Not contradictory if you think the only people who are people are the ones who talk and think like you.

But, if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew.

Incidentally, I find that movie to be full of gay metaphors.

They're still good metaphors.

And since Solo quotes them, they are clearly powerful words.

Yakk

2008-04-14, 10:55 PM

*nod*, sorry for derail. :)

Does a half-dragon who grows to large get wings? Probably not.

...

So how do you make the cleric live long enough to make an interesting fight?

With RM & DF & DP up:
Full BaB
+1 temp HP/caster level
+16 str +2 dex +6 con +2 int +2 cha
+6 natural AC -1 size AC
+3 luck hit/damage

A Cleric-12 Hob-dragon is a CR 14 encounter. At average stats to start with:
96 HP (or 144 if you use max HP)
+22 melee to-hit
+11/+15 melee to-damage (1 and 2 handed)
+0 touch/+6 normal AC/+5 flat footed AC
Saves: +8 will +11 fort +4 reflex

Using Elite array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
15 wis 14 con 13 str 12 cha 8 int 10 dex
level 12, so +3 stat-ups:
HobDragonZilla: (buffed)
str 30
dex 12
con 22
wis 15
int 10
cha 14

Using max hp: 168 HP, 12 Temporary
Full Plate, Large Shield. Both Magic Vestmented:
33 AC, 32 flat-footed, 10 touch

+30/+25/+20 to hit full attack with spiked shield, and natural attacks at +25

Gr. Magic Weapon on the spikes, amulet of natural attacks+3 for claw/bite:

Power attack is probably a good idea. That gives you a stab/stab/stab/claw/bite attack per round.
1d8+21 @33/28/23 + 1d8+21 @28 + 1d6+21 @28
Full power attack:
1d8+33 @21/16/11 + 1d8+33 @16 + 1d6+33 @16

On 25 AC, 5 power attack: ~135 HP damage average per round

Glyph of Wardings etched on the ceiling every square. Take a step, set off a 6d8 cold trap (reflex for half), unless you worship the deity/are undead.

Symbols of Pain scattered around for extra cripple -- same trigger, worship the god/are undead.

Unhallow the region (effect: darkness) with True Seeing up on the Cleric.

Back him up with 48(!) HD of undead, all with +2 HP per HD and a +2 profane bonus to hit/damage, from animate dead. I'd implement it as a bunch of skeletons standing in the dark, which when commanded grappling anyone who stumbles on them... (cold traps mean that the skeletons are immune to the bursts)

Forbiddance (ouch), with the password disguised as a prayer to the evil deity.

Cast Antilife shell, and the PCs cannot approach you (you can approach them).

So now your opponents cannot see you, cannot approach you, and if they try to move they are screwed...

Power is easy: making it so that the PCs stand the right amount of chance to have a tough fight that doesn't kill all of them in seconds is hard.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-16, 07:27 AM

Those are some more really great spell suggestions. Now I'm thinking of spamming the floors with Glyphs of Warding. (Glyph of Warding damage caps out at 5d8 btw.)

Again, I probably won't be using undead (doesn't fit the feeling for a cleric of Tiamat), but devils are fair game. I'm already planning on using abishai, and maybe some other devils as well.

And I'm pretty sure using magic to get Large size won't give my BBEG wings, but that's okay. He doesn't really need them. Also, I thought approaching a living creature would cause Anti-Life Shell to collapse.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the help!

hylian chozo

2008-04-16, 10:55 PM

With RM & DF & DP up:
Full BaB
+1 temp HP/caster level
+16 str +2 dex +6 con +2 int +2 cha
+6 natural AC -1 size AC
+3 luck hit/damage
Righteous Might also gives DR 6/good at 12th level.

Unhallow the region (effect: darkness) with True Seeing up on the Cleric.

Back him up with 48(!) HD of undead, all with +2 HP per HD and a +2 profane bonus to hit/damage, from animate dead. I'd implement it as a bunch of skeletons standing in the dark, which when commanded grappling anyone who stumbles on them... (cold traps mean that the skeletons are immune to the bursts)
Unhallow alone won't do that. You also need to Desecrate the area. Other than that... PC's are screwed. I especially like the skeleton's immunity to cold trick; But 48 1HD skeletons aren't much of a threat. Makes one hell of a distraction though.

@KillianHawkeye: No undead, huh? Oh, well.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-17, 07:03 AM

Yeah, the necromancy angle is already being covered by one of the PCs, anyway. :smallwink:

mostlyharmful

2008-04-17, 07:14 AM

Yeah, the necromancy angle is already being covered by one of the PCs, anyway. :smallwink:

Then why not nick them? Just cause the cleric doesn't see undead as amazing hotstuff doesn't mean he can't see the tactical value in swiping the PCs assets, doubly so if they boosted them or tricked them out with shinies.:smallsmile:

Undead might not fit the NPC but how do they feel about theft of minions

elliott20

2008-04-17, 08:40 AM

hey, I can so see it now:

PC Necro: "minions, attack!"
BBEG: "oh, I don't think so" *waves hand*
*all of the PC Necro's skeletons slowly turn around to face the PC Necro instead, their empty eyesockets flooded with the red light as if saying to the PC, "KILL!"*
PC Necro: "oh crap"

Zen Master

2008-04-17, 02:00 PM

I love it when my DM makes boss fights special and unexpected within the rules instead of making things up off the top of his head. It's cooler when you can figure it out. It's cooler when it makes sense. And it's cooler when it is part of a consistent universe.

See Gregory House's explanation of what is cool about magic tricks.

The way I see it these are the words of someone who is good at using the rules, but less good at crafting the story. No insult intended - but you are playing the game you know yourself to be good at, and thumbing your nose at the game you know yourself to be less good at.

It's only natural to be better entertained at that which you excell at. For the same reason, I surely hope my players like the storytelling game more than the rules optimizing one - for I excell at the former, but suck horribly at the latter.

By the way I feel the same way. I detest when one of my players - he plays the warforged juggernaut artificer btw - who has better knowledge of the rules than I, breaks my game by being invincible to the foes I think up. He is better at your game than I am - but I'm better at mine than either he or you.

This forum is thick with optimizers - but being in the company of like-minded people should not cloud your judgement to the point where you think you can define what game is good, and what isn't. That's individual.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-17, 03:11 PM

The way I see it these are the words of someone who is good at using the rules, but less good at crafting the story. No insult intended - but you are playing the game you know yourself to be good at, and thumbing your nose at the game you know yourself to be less good at.

It's only natural to be better entertained at that which you excell at. For the same reason, I surely hope my players like the storytelling game more than the rules optimizing one - for I excell at the former, but suck horribly at the latter.

By the way I feel the same way. I detest when one of my players - he plays the warforged juggernaut artificer btw - who has better knowledge of the rules than I, breaks my game by being invincible to the foes I think up. He is better at your game than I am - but I'm better at mine than either he or you.

This forum is thick with optimizers - but being in the company of like-minded people should not cloud your judgement to the point where you think you can define what game is good, and what isn't. That's individual.

And I would argue that I am better at your game then you, because I do a better job crafting a story and can do anything you can do, I just do it in a way that my players can share more in the experience because they know what is happening.

Only people who can't use the rules think that throwing away the rules is somehow a superior story telling method. It does no good to tell a story if the people you are telling it to have no idea what is going on because the universe doesn't follow any coherent set of rules, but changes every five seconds.

elliott20

2008-04-17, 03:21 PM

in summation: it's either RAW or it's outright CHAOS! Up is white, down is pink, and it will end in GAY ZOMBIES!

Sstoopidtallkid

2008-04-17, 03:25 PM

in summation: it's either RAW or it's outright CHAOS! Up is white, down is pink, and it will end in GAY ZOMBIES!No sarcasm? Yes. I'm playing in a game right now where the DM ignores RAW when it suits him, and it's impossible to take any action. You always have to wonder how it's going to work when he doesn't even pretend to roll dice. :smallfurious:

hylian chozo

2008-04-17, 03:35 PM

in summation: it's either RAW or it's outright CHAOS! Up is white, down is pink, and it will end in GAY ZOMBIES!

The mental image is horrible. I salute you.

@KillianHawkeye: If you want to spam glyphs of warding, i suggest a fire blast glyph. Devils are immune to fire. Maybe include some spell glyphs of bestow curse and dispel magic. Unfortunately, glyph of warding has a material component of 200gp diamond dust.

elliott20

2008-04-17, 03:56 PM

Sstoopidtallkid: I personally just think Chosen of Vecna is reacting a tad too dramatically towards Yakk's way of GMing.

I mean, it's not like Yakk is changing things on a whim with no rhyme or reason whilst experiencing blinding flashes of clarity accompanied by long bouts of dimly lit consciousness. He modifies a monster here or there, and tries to make things interesting.

The spirit of how the rules are used is entirely different.

One GM might be doing it because he simply doesn't know the rules, or is too lazy to follow it, or has little to no mental discipline to do so. The other is doing so in a very deliberate, and very measurable fashion that is an attempt to enhance the game.

And frankly, I can totally understand that. I mean, D&D is supposed to be a game. While I agree that consistency in the rules is a good thing, there gets to a point of diminishing returns. I don't want to have to get a freakin' doctorate in D&D-crunchology just to feel like I'm playing the game correctly.

Ted_Stryker

2008-04-17, 06:19 PM

You might consider giving this guy two heads with the Multiheaded creature template. Make them two different types of chromatic dragons, to be more Tiamat-like.

It's a +3 CR bump by the book (+2 for the extra head, +1 for getting an extra head with a breath weapon), but it's kind of a soft +3 CR, because there aren't any gains in HD, class levels, or max. spell level/spells per day.

Zen Master

2008-04-17, 07:50 PM

And I would argue that I am better at your game then you, because I do a better job crafting a story and can do anything you can do, I just do it in a way that my players can share more in the experience because they know what is happening.

Only people who can't use the rules think that throwing away the rules is somehow a superior story telling method. It does no good to tell a story if the people you are telling it to have no idea what is going on because the universe doesn't follow any coherent set of rules, but changes every five seconds.

Circle argument much?

Everything you just said can be simply reversed and used as my 'counter-arguments' - if I'm to follow your trend here. You're just repeating yourself and saying nothing with many words.

While sometimes bending the rules to make an encounter more interesting is a bad thing - more often it is a good thing. I am able to make logical, coherent encounters that surprise my players (and they'd surprise you too), and these are entertaining because they are unpredictable, they require more than avid reading of rules books to beat, and they most certainly contain flavour the game does not provide in and off itself.

The rules provide a decent blueprint of how the game should run. And while it reasonably rare that the rules a constraint upon the game and the options available to palyer and GM alike - it is also reasonably rare that deviating from the rules to do something they don't cover does anything at all to damage the game. Rather, it gives my personal creativity more room to play with.

I really am sorry - but your thick-headed, stubborn refusal to see any point beside your own flatters you little, and does next to nothing to support the point you're trying to make.

It's not black and white - and the fact that people play the game in every way you disapprove of and have fun all the while, is enough to prove you wrong. Your fun isn't better than mine, and claiming it is so - should you choose that bitter path - only shows idiocy.

Still no insult intended. But your crusading way of expression begets similar response.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-17, 10:09 PM

Circle argument much?

Everything you just said can be simply reversed and used as my 'counter-arguments' - if I'm to follow your trend here. You're just repeating yourself and saying nothing with many words.

Well since my argument was a sarcastic parroting of your statements in which you assumed to know everything about me and demonstrated that you are better then me at X, Y, and Z. I think this reflects more on your position then mine.

I am able to make logical, coherent encounters that surprise my players (and they'd surprise you too),

And so am I.

and these are entertaining because they are unpredictable,

And so are mine.

they require more than avid reading of rules books to beat,

And so do mine.

and they most certainly contain flavour the game does not provide in and off itself.

And so do mine. Your point was what exactly?

Zen Master

2008-04-18, 03:07 AM

Well since my argument was a sarcastic parroting of your statements in which you assumed to know everything about me and demonstrated that you are better then me at X, Y, and Z. I think this reflects more on your position then mine.

And so am I.

And so are mine.

And so do mine.

And so do mine. Your point was what exactly?

Read my post again, and again, and again, until you get it. I mean ..... it's RIGHT THERE.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-18, 05:56 AM

Read my post again, and again, and again, until you get it. I mean ..... it's RIGHT THERE.

So in other words you never had a point to begin with, and you pretty much just jumped in to brag about how much better then me you are at storytelling. If all you want to do is brag about how awesome you are, there is probably a better forum for it.

Zen Master

2008-04-18, 09:04 AM

So in other words you never had a point to begin with, and you pretty much just jumped in to brag about how much better then me you are at storytelling. If all you want to do is brag about how awesome you are, there is probably a better forum for it.

I'm bragging, am I? You're so pissed off I don't agree with you and dare contradict you, you don't read (or comprehend, I can't tell which) a word I say.

Here, have a look:

If you are going to throw out all the rules and make up your own for every boss fight, why are you even playing D&D? Either follow the D&D rules of go find another game.

I love it when my DM makes boss fights special and unexpected within the rules instead of making things up off the top of his head. It's cooler when you can figure it out. It's cooler when it makes sense. And it's cooler when it is part of a consistent universe.

You, telling anyone in the world who cares to share the light the correct way to play the game. You do remember that, don't you?

I disagree. There are as many correct ways to play the game as there are games and game masters. Honestly, I very much doubt you can find a group to play with you.

I've made it as plain as I humanly can. Be as angry as you please, this ... um, exchange of opinions is now over. There truly is no possible reason to spend time on you.

Edit: Further clarity. Don't say I didn't try.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-18, 11:13 AM

I'm bragging, am I? You're so pissed off I don't agree with you and dare contradict you, you don't read (or comprehend, I can't tell which) a word I say.

No, I'm not in the remotest sense pissed off at anything you've said. Just another person who thinks that because they don't understand the rules, throwing them out is the best option doesn't piss me off. The first seven didn't why do you think you are special?

But yes, I do think that saying "I'm a better storyteller then you." is the equivalent of claiming to be a better storyteller then me. I wonder why I think that.

You, telling anyone in the world who cares to share the light the correct way to play the game. You do remember that, don't you?

No, I telling people who want to play the game to play the game, and I'm telling people who want to go play a Freeform RPG to go do that, or at the very least not recommend to others that they throw out the rules.

Honestly, I very much doubt you can find a group to play with you.

As much as I appreciate your continuing condescension towards me (no seriously, I love being right) I have no problem finding groups.

I've made it as plain as I humanly can.

Yes, you have made very clear that you consider yourself a better storyteller then me, and that you consider following the rules to be bad for storytelling. I haven't seen any other opinions or statements from you, so I can only assume your storytelling superiority is what you are here referring to as being made plain.

Solo

2008-04-18, 01:06 PM

Honestly, I very much doubt you can find a group to play with you.

I'm currently in two PbP games with CoV.

Yakk

2008-04-18, 03:25 PM

I was actually thinking something like two advanced Adult Red Dragon skeletons (well, anything of that scale -- but is the use of dead dragons in the service of Tiamat acceptable?).

With a grapple check of +28, no AoO from the grapple attack, and and 10' reach, when the characters wander into the darkness the BBEG orders the dragons to attack.

A +28 grapple check isn't completely overwealming, the PCs can quite honestly destroy the skeletons if they engage them: but it provides a nice distraction that slows the PCs down without taking them out.

And there is the cool effect of the PC in question being told that they are being held in the mouth of ... something. :)

At CR 8, that's an ECL 10 encounter between the two of them -- not really enough to budge the ECL of the boss.

I do recommend throwing out the rules when designing BBEGs: but at the same time, have strict rules that they follow, ideally Tropes that the players can work out. Almost every monster in the monster manual was at one point improvised by a DM.

...

The hard part is making the fight last the length you want without slaughtering the PCs. Extra confusing and the like can help with this. :)

hamishspence

2008-04-18, 03:35 PM

Try Draconomicon: skeletal dragon and zombie dragon have no HD max, unlike normal ones, zombie uses normal HD rather than the double HD of a standard zombie, and keeps breath weapon (weaker) and can fly.

Add in combination of desecrate and an altar, and 10th level cleric can animate and control a 40HD CR14 Great Red Wyrm. Nasty.

Zen Master

2008-04-19, 08:06 AM

Really, you are too much fun to ignore.

But yes, I do think that saying "I'm a better storyteller then you." is the equivalent of claiming to be a better storyteller then me. I wonder why I think that.

Here, let me help you out. Here's what I actually said:

The way I see it these are the words of someone who is good at using the rules, but less good at crafting the story. No insult intended - but you are playing the game you know yourself to be good at, and thumbing your nose at the game you know yourself to be less good at.

You didn't understand it the first time - no surprise - so I'll explain to you what that means.

It is my assumption, based on the post from you that I originally replied to you, that you have greater skill as a rules interpreter than as a storyteller. I've made no comparison to myself. Now ... I am in fact completely certain you are no where near the storyteller I am, but pfft - who cares. That was never the point.

Here's the point, again: You think your way of playing the game is right and true, and that anyone who disagrees and enjoys something else, is automatically wrong.

I haven't even said what you do or like is bad. Not with a single word. Only that other things are just as good, fun and rewarding.

Now really - thats it. I shall waste no more time on you.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-19, 11:58 AM

Really, you are too much fun to ignore.

I know.

Here, let me help you out. Here's what I actually said:

Here, let me help you out: Here's what you actually said:

He is better at your game than I am - but I'm better at mine than either he or you.

Really, selectively quoting yourself to avoid the part where you claimed to be a better storyteller then me?

You didn't understand it the first time - no surprise - so I'll explain to you what that means.

I would inform you that insulting others is against the rules, if that action itself where not against the rules.

It is my assumption, based on the post from you that I originally replied to you, that you have greater skill as a rules interpreter than as a storyteller. I've made no comparison to myself. Now ... I am in fact completely certain you are no where near the storyteller I am, but pfft - who cares. That was never the point.

You actually did make a comparison to yourself, that aside. You are wrong. When you are told you are wrong about someone else you do not know, the correct response is not to call them an idiot for not understanding. It is to accept them at their word that you were wrong in your judgments.

Here's the point, again: You think your way of playing the game is right and true, and that anyone who disagrees and enjoys something else, is automatically wrong.

Here is my point: Never once did I say that "my way of playing the game" (IE following the rules) is right and true, or that anyone else is wrong. I said that following the rules is the only way to really be playing the game. And that if you play all BBEG fights as trope wars, you are not playing D&D. You are playing Trope Wars.

I haven't even said what you do or like is bad. Not with a single word. Only that other things are just as good, fun and rewarding.

Nor did I say that you said what I do is bad, you just said that trope wars is D&D, even though it isn't.

Zen Master

2008-04-19, 05:50 PM

I know.

Here, let me help you out: Here's what you actually said:

.........

Nor did I say that you said what I do is bad, you just said that trope wars is D&D, even though it isn't.

La la la ... you will never, ever stop, right? So caught up in your feeling of righteousness, nothing will ever make you wonder, even for an instant. Have fun with that.

You do feel that your way of playing is the only right one. I do feel you are wrong. And I have kept a solid group of players entertained in more than 20 years by being a very talented storyteller. I'm also a published writer of fiction. So - here's what: I've never met at rules-lawyer who could also tell a story, or craft a plot, but HEY PRESTO, you've convinced me you're the first.

Being the fabulous storyteller you are does nothing to alter the fact that you are a rules-lawyer, and want everyone else to be so too. And thus, you remain as wrong as ever.

For any perceived insult, I apologize. It is difficult to express such extremes of disagreement politely. I dislike how you play - I've no opinion about you as a person.

This one:

He is better at your game than I am - but I'm better at mine than either he or you.

Is my own fault. I'm comparing myself to him - not you. And to the game he - and you - play, compared to mine. It is more of an example than a comparison between us, and I wrongly assumed you'd see it as such.

You make no attempt whatever to relate to what I'm saying, but appear to make every effort to willfully misinterpret every word I say. Hence, discussion is futile.

About Trope Wars. Every rulebook I've ever read - and that's more than a few - has included a passage about how the GM can and should alter the rules if and when it suits the story.

This has been the most pointless thing I can remember ever doing. Have fun. Live long and prosper.

Chosen_of_Vecna

2008-04-19, 06:18 PM

La la la ... you will never, ever stop, right? So caught up in your feeling of righteousness, nothing will ever make you wonder, even for an instant. Have fun with that.

Seriously, do you not realize that saying someone is incapable of thinking or analyzing is an insult? Do you seriously think that if I said, "You have never once in your entire life ever listened to a single word told to you because your brain stopped working long ago." that is wouldn't be an insult?

The fact that you apologize for sounding insulting in the same post that you say the fundamentally most insulting thing in the universe confuses me to no end.

You do feel that your way of playing is the only right one. I do feel you are wrong.

I do not feel that my way is the only way of playing. I do feel that if you don't want to follow the rules of the game you are better of playing a different game, whether it be freeform/another tabletop game/or just writing fictional stories where there is nothing at all that could possibly get in the way of the story.

Once again. You cannot read my mind. You do not know me. You should not claim to know what someone thinks better then themselves.

I've never met at rules-lawyer who could also tell a story, or craft a plot, but HEY PRESTO, you've convinced me you're the first.

1) You undoubtably redefine everyone who cares about the rules and is good st storytelling to not be a "rules lawyer" in your head, thus avoiding having to admit to yourself when you run into someone that you are wrong about your prejudicial, incorrect, insulting, and bigoted belief.

2) Who hoo, you who would probably strangle anyone who actually knew the rules of the game as soon as talk to them have never bothered to stick around an evil mean nasty rules lawyer long enough to determine if they are actually good storytellers. No one is surprised

3) Haha, I'm the one who thinks my way is the only way, even though I freely admitted that all those people whom I disagree with are all intelligent worthwhile people. You on the other hand, the paragon of tolerance, attempting to temper my wrath have so far identified entire groups of people who are functionally incompetent and have accused me twice now of being incapable of thinking.

Being the fabulous storyteller you are does nothing to alter the fact that you are a rules-lawyer, and want everyone else to be so too.

What exactly is your definition of a rules-lawyer, it might be important if you are going to continue accusing me of being one, and having your accusation define my worldview.

I have never claimed that everyone else need to believe anything. I have stated that if they are going to play a game they should follow at least the most basic rules of it, or find another game. I have not asserted that they even need to enjoy following the rules, just that they need to because it is a contract they have signed with their players and breaking it will cause problems for those players.

Is my own fault. I'm comparing myself to him - not you.

Even though you expressly compared yourself to me.

You have made the mistake of thinking that because you feel bad about it now, you didn't mean it then. Doesn't work that way. If you say you are better then me, that is the same as saying you are better then me.

You make no attempt whatever to relate to what I'm saying, but appear to make every effort to willfully misinterpret every word I say. Hence, discussion is futile.

Once again, assertions about what I think are not yours to make. You are not a mind reader. I am not going to "relate" to what you say by starting from the assumption that you are the greatest storyteller of all time and that evil rules-lawyers should be exterminated. Because those are not my opinions. This does not mean that I am willfully misinterpreting what you say. It means that I am reading the words you write, and looking at them from the point of view of someone with my opinions.

Unfortunately for you, that means that I am going to point out when you are wrong about what you claim to know about me.

KillianHawkeye

2008-04-19, 06:19 PM

Okay, first of all...

@Acromos & CoV: If you (or anyone else) insists on continuing this side argument, I kindly ask that you start your own thread to do it in, because it really has no relevance to my original question or to the advice that some people are still trying to give me. Thank you.

Now then...

@mostlyharmful & elliot20: I really like that idea of swiping the Necro's undead minions. I gotta remember to use the cleric's rebuke/command undead on them.

@hylian chozo: I was thinking of doing fire/cold/electricity/acid glyphs (for the whole Tiamat thing), but by making them not trigger for followers of Tiamat I can protect the Cleric and the devils/whatever too. Although the occasional spell glyph thrown in would spice things up a bit.

@Ted_Stryker: I dunno about the multi-headed template. That seems a little strange. I'm not sure if I could take him seriously with two (or more) heads. I think that's just my preference on using that template on monsters rather than humanoids.

@Yakk: While skeletal dragons would be cool, I think the idea here is that by the time the PCs make it to the Cleric's final sanctum they would have already beaten all of his most big and powerful minions, leaving just the Cleric with his own defenses and a few minions/bodyguards. And traps and stuff.

Also, what's the deal with the darkness? While turning out the lights for the BBEG worked well in The Silence of the Lambs, I'd personally like my players to be able to see the big scary altar and the BBEG they've spent all this time thwarting. Tiamat isn't really much of a darkness goddess, despite being evil. And besides, remember that magical darkness in 3.5 isn't the pitch blackness it used to be. A skeletal dragon with greater invisibility would work better. And I think there will be enough magical light from the BBEG's evil ritual of DOOM to cancel out any darkness anyway.

---===---

Thanks again to everybody who's helped me by coming up with these great ideas. This playground is like a big D&D geniusing machine!