Natural Manifesters: Bonus PPs from attributes?

[LibraryOgre]

Do natural manifesters (i.e. those who have psi-like abilities due to their race) gain bonus PPs for high attributes? For example, a half-giant's Stomp ability's save is based on Charisma. If a 6th level Half-Giant Warblade had a Charisma of 15, would he have 2 PPs, or 8 (2 racial + 6 bonus)?

[kamikasei]

The section on bonus power points from abilities speaks only of (psionic) classes, and says the ability that grants the bonus depends on your class. The table itself shows bonus power points by class level. So, I would say no. You don't have class levels in a "psionic race" class that you can look up on the table and check against the relevant ability.

[LibraryOgre]

The section on bonus power points from abilities speaks only of (psionic) classes, and says the ability that grants the bonus depends on your class. The table itself shows bonus power points by class level. So, I would say no. You don't have class levels in a "psionic race" class that you can look up on the table and check against the relevant ability.

Having thought about it some more, I don't agree. You have a manifester level (even if its not a psionic class, it is a class with a level), and an attribute which defines your DC. The PP pool for your racial abilities would remain separate (as all PP pools do), but there's no reason it wouldn't.

[NEO|Phyte]

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally. Armor never affects a psi-like ability’s use. A psi-like ability has a manifesting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability description. In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.
Psi-like abilities do not grant/require power points, so no, your pool is not increased by having them.

[Chronos]

Having thought about it some more, I don't agree. You have a manifester level (even if its not a psionic class, it is a class with a level), and an attribute which defines your DC. The PP pool for your racial abilities would remain separate (as all PP pools do), but there's no reason it wouldn't.Except not all psionic creatures have psi-like abilities. If psionic creatures got bonus PP from ability scores, what score would an Elan use to determine bonuses?

And PP pools don't remain separate. A character with more than one source of PPs can use any of them for anything that uses PPs. A multiclass psion/psychic warrior, for instance, could use all of his psion power points to fuel powers he knows only as a psychic warrior.

[LibraryOgre]

I think I misread a bit from XPsi, then... I was looking over it while working on a character.

And it would not apply to an Elan, because an Elan is not a natural manifester, and thus do not have manifester levels. While it is naturally psionic, it on the nature of a Wild Talent; it has some psionic potential, but it has not been channeled into discrete powers. On the other hand, with Dromites, Duergar, Half-Giants, and Maenads, they do have discrete powers which can be improved by the expenditure of additional power points. The Duergar are an honest question mark, as their abilities don't have saving throws and thus an ability wasn't noted.

[Dhavaer]

On the other hand, with Dromites, Duergar, Half-Giants, and Maenads, they do have discrete powers which can be improved by the expenditure of additional power points.

They have psi-like abilities, not powers. They don't need to pay the power point cost to use their abilities.

[Draz74]

And it would not apply to an Elan, because an Elan is not a natural manifester, and thus do not have manifester levels. While it is naturally psionic, it on the nature of a Wild Talent; it has some psionic potential, but it has not been channeled into discrete powers. On the other hand, with Dromites, Duergar, Half-Giants, and Maenads, they do have discrete powers which can be improved by the expenditure of additional power points. The Duergar are an honest question mark, as their abilities don't have saving throws and thus an ability wasn't noted.

As a side note, I don't know why the Dromites have a "save is CHA-based" line at all, since Energy Ray doesn't allow a save. They're in the same category as Duergar. Poor editing.

Dhavaer is right. Dromites, Duergar, Half-Giants, and Maenads are also "on the nature of Wild Talent." They just also have Psi-Like Abilities. It's kind of like monsters that have natural spellcasting, and then, separately, also have Spell-Like Abilities (e.g. Nymph, Planetar, Lillend), except that of course full natural spellcasting is a lot more powerful than Wild Talent-like abilities.

So a Dromite who never takes any levels in Psionic classes (besides Soulknife) will never have more than 1 PP. However, that's not so very bad, because he doesn't need PP to use his Energy Ray.

The "manifester level = 1/2 HD" line in the rules has nothing to do with bonus PP. What it does certainly affect is durations/ranges of Psi-Like Abilities. Also, even though the rules don't explicitly say so, any reasonable DM (who doesn't want Psi-Like abilities to be completely useless) will allow you to "augment" your Psi-Likes up to "full augmentation" for your "manifester level" -- still without using any PP. So a 10th-level Dromite can do 5d6 damage with his Energy Ray, not just 1d6. (This isn't even a house rule; it's just an interpretation of an ambiguous part of the rules.)

Does that make your answer of "no, you don't get bonus PP from being Naturally Psionic" more acceptable?

[LibraryOgre]

They have psi-like abilities, not powers. They don't need to pay the power point cost to use their abilities.

.
Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. .

[LibraryOgre]

The "manifester level = 1/2 HD" line in the rules has nothing to do with bonus PP. What it does certainly affect is durations/ranges of Psi-Like Abilities. Also, even though the rules don't explicitly say so, any reasonable DM (who doesn't want Psi-Like abilities to be completely useless) will allow you to "augment" your Psi-Likes up to "full augmentation" for your "manifester level" -- still without using any PP. So a 10th-level Dromite can do 5d6 damage with his Energy Ray, not just 1d6. (This isn't even a house rule; it's just an interpretation of an ambiguous part of the rules.)

Does that make your answer of "no, you don't get bonus PP from being Naturally Psionic" more acceptable?

Indeed it would.

[kamikasei]

Also, even though the rules don't explicitly say so, any reasonable DM (who doesn't want Psi-Like abilities to be completely useless) will allow you to "augment" your Psi-Likes up to "full augmentation" for your "manifester level" -- still without using any PP. So a 10th-level Dromite can do 5d6 damage with his Energy Ray, not just 1d6. (This isn't even a house rule; it's just an interpretation of an ambiguous part of the rules.)

Hang on -


All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

That doesn't seem very ambiguous to me.

[Draz74]

Hmmm. I've looked for that passage in the rules and been unable to find it before. But now I guess I know why I was so sure that it must be the intention.

My bad. :smallredface: