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Neftren
2008-04-11, 05:41 PM
So I've been thinking... the Duskblade and the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) are pretty similar in ideas in which you use spells and such to augment melee ability. This got me thinking to the enhanced full attack and additional options obtained through the Swiftblade. What if I combined them? I'm not sure if this is actually a good idea, but I was going to put everything into Intelligence and Dexterity and try to create a strong but dodgy individual...

Several questions pertain to this. To begin with, "Is this a good combination?" Another question I have would be... "Can I take the Arcane Disciple Feat to pick up the Celerity Domain and gain Haste onto my spell list in order to qualify for the Swiftblade class?"

Tell me what you guys think, since I'm considering playing it.

UserClone
2008-04-11, 05:58 PM
That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA. Why? Almost all the bonuses (and ALL the best ones) rely on your casting haste which Arcane Disciple would let you cast ONE (1) time per day.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-11, 06:01 PM
Eclectic learning or whatever was the name lets you add it to your list of spells.

The_Snark
2008-04-11, 06:30 PM
Eclectic learning is a Warmage class feature, though. Duskblades don't get it. I don't believe it's a feat, either.

You could do it, but it doesn't strike me as a good combination; you lose base attack bonus and caster levels, and you don't get anything in return unless you can cast Haste on yourself, which you can only do once per day.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-11, 06:50 PM
I mentioned Eclectic learning, but I KNOW there's a feat out there. I saw it used with, I believe, a beguiler build, to get a nice spell. It's pretty much the Expanded Knowledge of spelcasting, and there surely is one out there.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-11, 06:51 PM
You should instead get an item that lets you cast haste on yourself (i.e. boots of speed or armor of speed). It's still not the best combo but at least it works better than arcane disciple.

Or get your DM to houserule that the Extra Spell feat lets you add spells that aren't actually on your class list (which is false by RAW, but not unreasonable for a partial caster).

The_Snark
2008-04-11, 06:58 PM
If you can get the Extra Spell houserule, that's the way to go, but you won't qualify for the feat until level 13, which means that unless you can get a bonus feat you can't enter Swiftblade until level 16.

I don't think boots of haste would qualify you; they give you the ability to benefit from a haste effect, not the ability to cast Haste.

Neftren
2008-04-11, 06:58 PM
That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA. Why? Almost all the bonuses (and ALL the best ones) rely on your casting haste which Arcane Disciple would let you cast ONE (1) time per day.

I'm not a big fan of prebuffs in PbP at the moment, so it fits my playstyle. What I'm going for from the Swiftblade is the extra actions part of the class, in addition to the awesome bonuses to oneself.


Eclectic learning is a Warmage class feature, though. Duskblades don't get it. I don't believe it's a feat, either.

You could do it, but it doesn't strike me as a good combination; you lose base attack bonus and caster levels, and you don't get anything in return unless you can cast Haste on yourself, which you can only do once per day.

Nope, they don't get it, and Duskblades don't have Haste on the spell list...

Erm... you don't lose BAB. Duskblade and Swiftblade are both full BAB classes. Caster levels can be made up with Practiced Spellcaster and the like, and as I stated before, I'm not a big fan of buff spells.

I'm really going for Swift Surge, Perpetual Options and Innervated Speed.

Squash Monster
2008-04-11, 07:11 PM
If you don't like buff spells, taking a class that requires you to have one active at all times to get most of its class features is not really wise.

Also, how do you plan to enter swiftblade? It requires you spend all your 3rd level slots on Haste for an entire level: good luck doing that with Arcane Disciple.

Isomenes
2008-04-11, 08:49 PM
That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA. Why? Almost all the bonuses (and ALL the best ones) rely on your casting haste which Arcane Disciple would let you cast ONE (1) time per day.

Incorrect. According to the feat: you may learn these spells as normal for your class. So you could learn it once you can cast the level of spell that the domain grants. The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13. And even then, its uses are very limited, given the few spell slots at higher levels.

Aquillion
2008-04-11, 09:15 PM
Incorrect. According to the feat: you may learn these spells as normal for your class. So you could learn it once you can cast the level of spell that the domain grants. The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13. And even then, its uses are very limited, given the few spell slots at higher levels.Read Arcane Discipine again. You add them to your class spell list, but even after consuming spells known slots to learn them (which, again, you're required to do) you are still specifically only allowed to memorize or cast one of each level per day (you could technically get around this by wasting your higher-level spell slots... except that, as a duskblade, your spell progression stops too low for this to help.)

Neftren
2008-04-11, 09:16 PM
Incorrect. According to the feat: you may learn these spells as normal for your class. So you could learn it once you can cast the level of spell that the domain grants. The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13. And even then, its uses are very limited, given the few spell slots at higher levels.

I've got that part figured out, and the game I'm playing in is going to be quite high, so it'll be pretty useful at that point. Besides, how many times are you going to cast haste per encounter anyway?

Besides, the "Spend All Spell Slots" is fluff. Not a big deal if I did that previously somewhere along the way.

Chronos
2008-04-11, 09:16 PM
The real problem is that the Celerity domain has Haste as a 4th-level spell, which isn't until Duskblade 13.Which also makes it impossible to use it to enter Swiftblade, since you have to use your third-level slots on Haste to enter Swiftblade.

The_Snark
2008-04-11, 09:19 PM
Actually, he's right. The feat specifies that you may only prepare or cast a maximum of one spell domain spell of each level.

Spell slots aren't such a big problem for a duskblade; after only a couple levels of having 4th-level spells, you've got a reliable five-or-six 4th-level spells per day. Which is why Extra Spell is probably the way to go, if you can persuade your DM; by the time you enter the class, you'll have plenty of spell slots to use Haste with. And by that time, you've already gotten the duskblade's full-attack arcane channeling, so there's not as much to lose by going into another class.

Aquillion
2008-04-11, 09:19 PM
Which also makes it impossible to use it to enter Swiftblade, since you have to use your third-level slots on Haste to enter Swiftblade.You can get around this one.

Retrain or something so you have no third-level spells, or lower your casting stat two 12 or below. Spend an entire level like this. Reverse what you did to get back your third-level spells, taking a level of swiftblade at the same time. You have now spent "all your 3rd level spells" during that level on haste (all zero of them).

Since the Swiftblade's use-all-your-spell-slots requirements specifically only care about what you did last level while the other requirements will only care about how you are at the end, you can get away with it.

You may have to spend an entire level Feebleminded, but it'll work...

Isomenes
2008-04-11, 09:54 PM
Read Arcane Discipine again. You add them to your class spell list, but even after consuming spells known slots to learn them (which, again, you're required to do) you are still specifically only allowed to memorize or cast one of each level per day (you could technically get around this by wasting your higher-level spell slots... except that, as a duskblade, your spell progression stops too low for this to help.)

I disagree. The final paragraph essentially indicates that you receive a domain spell slot for each level spell you can cast. This does not preclude you from using it as a learned spell in your normal spell slots.

Aquillion
2008-04-11, 10:03 PM
I disagree. The final paragraph essentially indicates that you receive a domain spell slot for each level spell you can cast. This does not preclude you from using it as a learned spell in your normal spell slots.But... it then specifically says you are limited to memorizing it once per day, or casting it once per day if you cast like a sorcerer. You can't just ignore that sentence because you don't like it.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 01:08 AM
Two levels in Wyrm Wizard nets you Spell Research, which lets you add any spell in the game to your spell list.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-12, 03:25 AM
Which also makes it impossible to use it to enter Swiftblade, since you have to use your third-level slots on Haste to enter Swiftblade.

Versatile Spellcaster feat?

I'm aware that it's not really worth it, but I think it would work by RAW.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 04:13 AM
Versatile Spellcaster feat?

I think it would work by RAW.

I think that would work by RAW too, since the Swiftblade states that you have to use all of your 3rd-level slots to cast Haste.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-12, 04:41 AM
I think that would work by RAW too, since the Swiftblade states that you have to use all of your 3rd-level slots to cast Haste.

Hm... this is pure rules lawyering, but if you have zero third-level slots it would be pretty easy to spend all of them on Haste, no?

Everyman
2008-04-12, 11:02 AM
Nope. You don't have anything to spend. You can't actually "spend all your spell slots" if you didn't have any to start with. You never actually spent anything. That's like saying a barbarian could meet that paticular prerequisite as he never had the spell slots either. Good try though.

Really, the best way I've seen someone get into the class is to Wizard 5/ Fighter 1 (Comp. Mage variant)/ Swiftblade. You're short a bit on BAB, but you'll have access to much better spells. Besides, the class features actually even out your attack bonuses to something on par with a pure meleer. If you want, you can always take Battlecaster to improve upon what armor you can wear without arcane spell failure.

Neftren
2008-04-12, 06:51 PM
Nope. You don't have anything to spend. You can't actually "spend all your spell slots" if you didn't have any to start with. You never actually spent anything. That's like saying a barbarian could meet that paticular prerequisite as he never had the spell slots either. Good try though.

Really, the best way I've seen someone get into the class is to Wizard 5/ Fighter 1 (Comp. Mage variant)/ Swiftblade. You're short a bit on BAB, but you'll have access to much better spells. Besides, the class features actually even out your attack bonuses to something on par with a pure meleer. If you want, you can always take Battlecaster to improve upon what armor you can wear without arcane spell failure.

Actually, yes you really can... technically... it says that you must use all your spell slots to exclusively CAST haste. I spend my single domain slot to cast haste, and I don't cast any other third level spells and I get around that.

The idea is not to provide me with other multiclassing ideas. I know of the easiest way into Swiftblade. I always wonder why people provide "better" class combinations to a player when the point is not to power game, but to find something fun to play. I merely asked your opinions on whether this was feasible and worth playing. Some say it is, some say it isn't. I'll playtest it and report back with my findings.

Danin
2008-04-12, 07:42 PM
I've no idea if it would be legal, but I always thought a Factotum 11 / Swiftblade 9 would be neat. The Factotum's spell casting ability would allow him around 5 uses of Haste per day and, although I'm not sure if it would qualify, I would think that would be enough. You may not be able to hook up with the Swiftblade's cap stone (the time stop ability) but things work out perfectly to get cunning breach (ignore DR or SR at the cost of 4 inspiration points).

As to the Duskblade? I considered it, but I just don't see a way of making it work well. I wish I could be of more help.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 08:13 PM
The idea is not to provide me with other multiclassing ideas. I know of the easiest way into Swiftblade. I always wonder why people provide "better" class combinations to a player when the point is not to power game, but to find something fun to play. I merely asked your opinions on whether this was feasible and worth playing. Some say it is, some say it isn't. I'll playtest it and report back with my findings.

If you don't use something like the Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research to get Haste as a spell known (I didn't see any other legal method for getting it as a true spell known proffered), what are you going to do, take Arcane Disciple and have the ability to cast Haste just 1/day?

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 08:35 PM
Double post due to forum delays.

Chronos
2008-04-12, 09:39 PM
The Factotum's spell casting ability would allow him around 5 uses of Haste per dayNope, the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability doesn't allow you to prepare the same spell more than once. So you'd have a maximum of one Haste a day.


I always wonder why people provide "better" class combinations to a player when the point is not to power game, but to find something fun to play.Because some people find it fun to have more power? Because even if power isn't your primary goal, having too little power can hinder your fun? A character who gets most of his class abilities from casting a particular spell, and who can't cast that spell, probably isn't going to be very fun. So folks are suggesting similar things that you might also consider fun, but which would be easier to make work.

Reaper_Monkey
2008-04-12, 10:03 PM
From overview I really like this idea, im currently playing a duskblade atm myself (low level) so this seemed like a nice interesting branch for me to go off in.

The reasons however I wont, is because as has already been stated above, obtaining the spell which makes this prestige class work is not available for a duskblade by default and obtaining it seems to prove more hassle than its worth...

And also because one of the coolest features this prestige has to offer, the Innervated Speed ability, that makes you fundementally stop time, cannot be used...

"Innervated Speed (Ex): At 10th level, your mastery of the haste spell can bring the world around you to a standstill. Any time you prepare or spontaneously cast haste in a 6th level spell slot."

..duskblades can only cast up to 5th level spells... therefore thats a whole chunk of expected power you've just lost out on there alone, getting *that* as well as the actual spell... well thats going to be way too much effort for an effective build =(

I personally think its just not worth the effort.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 10:48 PM
And also because one of the coolest features this prestige has to offer, the Innervated Speed ability, that makes you fundementally stop time, cannot be used...

"Innervated Speed (Ex): At 10th level, your mastery of the haste spell can bring the world around you to a standstill. Any time you prepare or spontaneously cast haste in a 6th level spell slot."

..duskblades can only cast up to 5th level spells... therefore thats a whole chunk of expected power you've just lost out on there alone

Perhaps you could use Versatile Spellcaster and burn two 5th level slots to cast Haste in a 6th level "slot".

It would be a houserule, but maybe the DM would allow it.

Reaper_Monkey
2008-04-13, 05:12 AM
Perhaps you could use Versatile Spellcaster and burn two 5th level slots to cast Haste in a 6th level "slot".

It would be a houserule, but maybe the DM would allow it.

Very true... again however burning up more resources to get something that would be standard with a different build, and therefore lowering your assumed power for your level.

Of cause, the DM could just say you get Haste for free, and that ability works with two 5th level spells (I'd assume they would not however let it work at any higher level slot). In which case a lot of the issues this build faces are lessened dramatically.

The build would then consist of forever running in and out of battle like a headless chicken to get your extra movement damage (and, well, because you can) and never learning any more 3rd level spell slots other than haste, because you should never need to cast anything else from that slot once its effects start to boot more and more. Of cause this would mean you'd have to focus the rest of your Arcane Channeling touch spells into 2nd and 4th slots if you wanted to maintain the power yield of the Duskblade... but its more doable, not perfect, but good flavour and possible. If your DM lets you that is, by RAW it'll be a massive headache.

Neftren
2008-04-13, 11:09 AM
From overview I really like this idea, im currently playing a duskblade atm myself (low level) so this seemed like a nice interesting branch for me to go off in.

The reasons however I wont, is because as has already been stated above, obtaining the spell which makes this prestige class work is not available for a duskblade by default and obtaining it seems to prove more hassle than its worth...

And also because one of the coolest features this prestige has to offer, the Innervated Speed ability, that makes you fundementally stop time, cannot be used...

"Innervated Speed (Ex): At 10th level, your mastery of the haste spell can bring the world around you to a standstill. Any time you prepare or spontaneously cast haste in a 6th level spell slot."

..duskblades can only cast up to 5th level spells... therefore thats a whole chunk of expected power you've just lost out on there alone, getting *that* as well as the actual spell... well thats going to be way too much effort for an effective build =(

I personally think its just not worth the effort.

Technically it doesn't say anything about applying Metamagic Feats to it. If I take Practical Metamagic... that opens the way for a bunch of other stuff.

Edit: Reaper_Monkey, you hit it on the head. I really want to play something that's actually flavorful and somewhat interesting. If I wanted straight power, I would have gone for straight rogue/scout and gotten my 22d6 points of Skirmish+Sneak Attack damage. Or a Power Attacker using the x8 returns on Power Attack... the idea is to play around with something.

Yes, I agree it's a bit of a hassle to get into having to burn three feats to get into, but I think that I can exploit a few loopholes to make it work.

Dragonmuncher
2008-04-13, 11:26 AM
Can I just say how odd I think it is that Haste isn't a Duskblade spell?

I mean yes, it's not a direct damage spell, but it still is combat oriented enough that I'd think it'd be there.

JaxGaret
2008-04-13, 11:37 AM
Yes, I agree it's a bit of a hassle to get into having to burn three feats to get into, but I think that I can exploit a few loopholes to make it work.

I think I missed it - what three feats are you taking to get Haste on your list of spells known, and castable more than 1/day?

Reaper_Monkey
2008-04-13, 02:01 PM
I think I missed it - what three feats are you taking to get Haste on your list of spells known, and castable more than 1/day?

Feat 1, Obtained at level 3 [DM Begging]: Your character begs to the high deity De-eMous for supernatural gifts.
-Your character feels that larger sacrifices are required to please said god.

Feat 2, Obtained at level 6 [Sacrafice to the great DM]: Your character spends all waking hours contemplating how to please De-eMous, due to this enormous waste of time and effort, your character finds that they have learnt nothing new for a while, while everyone else around them seem to have spent their time specializing in one way or another.
-Your character feels closer to their goal, however the great gods have yet to see you fit for blessings.

Feat 3, Obtained at level 9 [Great offering of "My Character Sucks Now"]: Your character has studied hard on the favourite drinks and playtime snacks of the great De-eMous, and have offered many up to the heavens with hope. Your character now feels enlightened with the knowledge that bribery works even with the gods.
-Your character now feels able to expand their knowledge further than that or normal mortals of your stature. You gain the ability to learn the Haste spell, and if you were to learn to master this spell, to also subout a 6th level spell slot for two 5th level spell slots.

Just in time for you to spend a whole level constantly buffing yourself over with the Haste spell (all two + int of them) ready to advance as a swiftblade! =D (well just as soon as you've levelled another three - six levels for the other two feats you need that is, but at least your closer to full attack arcane channeling then)


Ps. Incase you didn't guess, no, I don't know what three feats.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-13, 04:53 PM
I think I missed it - what three feats are you taking to get Haste on your list of spells known, and castable more than 1/day?

Arcane Disciple three times, provided you can find three different domains that contain the haste spell?

JaxGaret
2008-04-13, 04:57 PM
Arcane Disciple three times, provided you can find three different domains that contain the haste spell?

I'm checking right now for how many domains have Haste as a domain spell.

EDIT: Time domain has it as a 3rd level spell, Celerity domain has it as a 4th level spell. That's it.

But I really meant that the character would have Haste as a true spell known, castable however many times the character had spell slots to use on it.

Neftren
2008-04-13, 06:02 PM
I'm checking right now for how many domains have Haste as a domain spell.

EDIT: Time domain has it as a 3rd level spell, Celerity domain has it as a 4th level spell. That's it.

But I really meant that the character would have Haste as a true spell known, castable however many times the character had spell slots to use on it.

By my interpretation, it says to add it to the spell list in addition to being able to cast it once per day. That indicates to me that I can also learn it as a spell separate from the domain section and cast it for as many times per day as I wanted, provided I had enough spell slots.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-13, 06:27 PM
By my interpretation, it says to add it to the spell list in addition to being able to cast it once per day.

That is incorrect. It adds it to your spell list, but you cannot actually cast it until you learn that spell from your spell list (which costs you a "spells known" slot, for sorcerers and duskblades), and then you still need sufficient wisdom to cast it, and can only cast it once per day.

Neftren
2008-04-13, 06:52 PM
That is incorrect. It adds it to your spell list, but you cannot actually cast it until you learn that spell from your spell list (which costs you a "spells known" slot, for sorcerers and duskblades), and then you still need sufficient wisdom to cast it, and can only cast it once per day.

Either way, I won't be casting Haste very much...

JaxGaret
2008-04-13, 09:50 PM
Either way, I won't be casting Haste very much...

Correct, you'll be casting it 1/day.

I thought you were doing this for the flavor, not for the mechanics? A Swiftblade that can only cast Haste 1/day hardly lives up to the name.

Neftren
2008-04-14, 06:20 PM
Correct, you'll be casting it 1/day.

I thought you were doing this for the flavor, not for the mechanics? A Swiftblade that can only cast Haste 1/day hardly lives up to the name.

I am doing it for the flavor. I'm putting together the specifics right now. Yes, I also know that I'm giving up a major feature from the capstone ability, but whatever. I doubt I'll get that far anyway.

{table="Head"]Level|Class|Feat|Notes
1|Duskblade|Dodge, Arcane Disciple, Versatile Spellcaster|Two Flaws
3|Duskblade|Mobility|
[/table]

By Third level I already fulfilled every requirement except for the ability to cast haste. That comes at ninth level. I also plan on generally abusing the Wraithstrike spell with extreme wand usage.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-14, 06:56 PM
A little off track, but i like this class a lot. Am I right in thinking that lv 6 is the earliest you can this PrC? Or is there some way to get +3 BAB and 3rd lv spells at lv 5?

JaxGaret
2008-04-14, 08:33 PM
A little off track, but i like this class a lot. Am I right in thinking that lv 6 is the earliest you can this PrC? Or is there some way to get +3 BAB and 3rd lv spells at lv 5?

Cleric with the Time Domain and Domain Spontaneity.

Neftren
2008-04-14, 09:10 PM
A little off track, but i like this class a lot. Am I right in thinking that lv 6 is the earliest you can this PrC? Or is there some way to get +3 BAB and 3rd lv spells at lv 5?

You could, but that would necessitate taking five levels of wizard. The best way to get into this class would definitely just be straight Bard 6.

BAB +3 is easy, since Duskblade is full BAB. Only issue is learning to cast 3rd level spells. I cannot enter Swiftblade until level nine as a Duskblade. Not a huge deal for me, but whatever.

JaxGaret
2008-04-14, 09:20 PM
You could, but that would necessitate taking five levels of wizard. The best way to get into this class would definitely just be straight Bard 6.

Wizard5 only has +2 BAB and Bard6 only has 2nd level spells.

Neither of them can qualify for the Swiftblade.

Neftren
2008-04-14, 09:22 PM
Wizard5 only has +2 BAB and Bard6 only has 2nd level spells.

Neither of them can qualify for the Swiftblade.

Bard gets Third Level Bonus Spell Slots. Excuse me, I meant 7th level. Fastest way to get into the class is Wizard 5/Fighter 1.

JaxGaret
2008-04-14, 09:24 PM
Fastest way to get into the class is Wizard 5/Fighter 1.

I just posted that a Cleric with the Time Domain and the Domain Spontaneity feat can qualify by 5th level...