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Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-11, 09:07 PM
I recently purchased the Dragon Compendium: Volume I, and I have fallen in love with some of the races in it, particularly the diopsid, a race of beetle-like people whose four arms give them the ability to dual-wield larger weapons like greatswords and greataxes.

I decided to create a diopsid barbarian for a game focusing on dual-wielding either greatswords or greataxes (I can't decide at the moment), and I was wondering if I could get some help.

The game will only allow characters up to level 7, and diopsid have a LA of +1. I was wondering how to build at least a competent dual-wielder within those limits.

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Here are the traits for the diopsid, for those of you that may need them (the Diopsid was created by Johnathan M. Richards in Dragon #267, January 2000):

- Monstrous Humanoid: As monstrous humanoids, diopsids are immune to spells that only affect humanoids, such as charm person and hold person.

- +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence: Diopsids are tough, but clumsy and slow-witted compared to other races. A diopsid's young age at adulthood makes it inexperienced and ignorant compared to other folk.

- Medium: As size Medium creatures, diopsids gain no special benefits or penalties due to their size.

- Diopsid base land speed is 30 feet.

- Darkvision: Diopsids can see in the dark to a range of up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and diopsids can function just fine with no light at all.

- Bioluminescence: A diposid has a number of glands on its body that allow it to shed light much like a firefly. At will, the diopsid can shed light in a 10-foot radius around its body. Shadowy illumination extends another 20 feet around this area. The diopsid can create or douse this light as a free action.

- Natural Armor: A diopsid's tough carapace gives it a +4 natural armor bonus.

- Wings: Diopsids have a pair of stubby wings that, while too weak to provide them with flight, allows them to gently glide to a soft landing regardless of how far they fall. A diopsid does not take falling damage as long as it is capable of taking actions. As an immediate action, it can unfurl its wings and float slowly downward at 60 feet per round. A paralyzed, unconcious, or otherwise incapacitated diopsid cannot use its wings in this manner.

- Extra Arms: Diopsids have four arms: Their two primary limbs and a secondary, weaker set of arms. Their weaker limbs are poorly suited to carrying weapons or shields, but they do an excellent job of providing stability and support to the upper limbs.
The diopsid's extra limbs allow it to use weapons one size category larger than normal without penalty. The diopsid's secondary arms must be free to gain this benefit. This benefit does not extend to larger weapons. For example, a diopsid can wield a Large longsword with a single primary arm without penalty by steadying the blade's pommel with its lower limb.
A diopsid can wield a pair of two-handed weapons by using all four of its limbs. The diopsid gains the full benefits of wielding a two-handed weapon, such as 1-1/2 times its Strength bonus on damage rolls. The diopsid suffers the standard penalty for fighting with two weapons and carrying a non-light weapon in its off-hand.
A diopsid wielding a pair of two-handed weapons is a fearsome sight. It shifts and twirls the two weapons between its four hands, hammering its opponent with tremendous strikes while defyin its normally clumsy, fumbling nature.
If a diopsid carries a weapon or shield in its secondary arms while one or more of its primary arms also carry an item, it suffers a number of penalties. When using a shield, the diopsid takes the shield's armor check penalty on its attack rolls and skill checks even if it has proficiency with the shield. When using a weapon, the diopsid only gains half its Strength bonus on damage rolld. It takes a -4 penalty on all attacks for each light weapon used in this manner. This penalty increases to -8 for one-handed weapons. The diopsid cannot carry a two-handed weapon with just its secondary arms.
A diopsid with at least one empty hand can cast spells with a somatic component.

- Limb Symmetry: A diopsid's four arms allow it to carry and use multiple items with relative ease. A diopsid can use its third or fourth limbs to steady a weapon held in its primary arms, shift its weight, and maneuver it to attack or defend. A diopsid ignores the Dexterity prerequisite, if any, for any feat that has the words "two-weapon" in its name, such as Two-Weapon Fighting. The diopsid must fulfill the rest of the feat's requirements as normal.

- Insect Body: The diopsid's beetle-like body makes it unsuited to use many tools and magic items designed for humanoids. A diopsid has trouble wearing bulky armor even if it has the appropriate feat. A diopsid can wear light armor without penalty. When wearing medium armor the diopsid takes a -2 penalty to Dexterity. This penalty increases to -4 if the diopsid wears heavy armor. The diopsid's multiple limbs and bulky form make it poorly suited to using heavy armor. For such a suit to offer its full protection, it must restrict the diopsid's movements.
In any case, the diopsid must purchase custom-made armor. This armor costs the same price as if the diopsid hat to purchase armor one size larger than normal.

- Immune to Sleep: Diopsids do not need to sleep and are immune to all sleep effects.

- Automatic Languages: Common and Diopsid. Bonus Languages: Dwarf, Orc, Terran, Undercommon. Diopsids learn the languages of the Underdark to facilitate trade with other folk. The diopsid love of new weapons and metal goods is powerful enough to overcome their normally sluggish intelects. The diopsid native tongue employs their luminous glands, allowing them to flash messages across the largest Underdark caverns without a sound. Diopsids can also create flashes of "light" visible only to creatures with darkvision, allowing them to "whisper" without tipping off their presence to creatures that rely on normal vision.
An observer can detect a diopsid communicating in this manner with a Spot check rather than a Listen check. While creatures that lack bioluminescence cannot "speak" Diopsid, they can understand and translate it.

- Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass diopsid's barbarian levels do not count when determining whether it takes an experience point penalty. Diopsids are strong, tough warriors who prefer brute force to elegant fighting styles. Thus, the barbarian class is a perfect match for them.

- Level Adjustment: +1.

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Any and all advice you could give to help with this character would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.:smallsmile:

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 12:23 AM
Complete Champion, Lion Totem Variant.

That's all you need. Have fun! :smallsmile:

Eikre
2008-04-12, 12:33 AM
Well, if you're going to go with two weapons like that, you'd like Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, which will eliminate the penalties for fighting with a weapon heavier than light in your off-hands. You're not looking bad. Essentially, you have twice as many attacks as a similar fighter, with all the same trimmings, but you're a level down and a few feats behind. We can work with that. Much better than having to rely on DEX.

The most importable build for this bloke is probably a charging build, complimented with Pounce to take greater advantage of your extra attacks. You'll have less support for your choice of style, I think, being down so many feats as compared to the Fighter, but you can get in the basics: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a whole hell of a lot of STR.

I also like the idea of going the route of thrown weapons. Brutal Throw, from complete warrior, lets you use your STR mod instead of DEX for thrown weapon attack rolls. You get to toss bigger stuff more often than other throwing brutes, and you can take advantage of your extra attacks every turn because you can make them at a range. The downside is all your ammunition is really, really heavy. On the upside, unlike other ranged attacker, someone can step toe-to-toe with you and you can basically do the same thing you always do, but just keep your weapons in your hand.

A word on your weaponry: Splitting hairs over damage dice matters.

I was going to suggest that you just use a really big double weapon, but this is a terribly vague race. Check this contradiction: The diopsid's extra limbs allow it to use weapons one size category larger than normal without penalty... This benefit does not extend to larger weapons. So I can use big weapons, but only if they're not big? I can clearly use a Large Longsword. But a Large Longsword, with the penalty removed... Is a Greatsword. Is that what they're telling us? Choose any TWFable weapon you want and make it bigger for strange Greatsword substitute? Maybe that seems cool to you, but all that really means is you're the go-to guy when you loot a Giant's body.

There are two ways to use this strange feature. One, is that you ignore it completely, and use a pair of Greatswords... But then you make the Greatswords large by using Strongarm Bracers (From the Magic Item Compendium). Of all the ways to make weapons a few size-catagories bigger, you can't often stack them, so you may as well start out with the biggest medium weapon you can get and then make that bigger. You upgrade from 2d6 to 3d6 damage on both your weapons greatswords, this way. That's 3.5 extra damage, right there.

The other option is to plan to go into Exotic Weapons Master, which is a cute class. It has a feature that lets you get twice your STR to damage whenever you two-hand your one-handed exotic weapon. That means you take a pair of bastard swords, make them large for 2d8 damage, and get twice your STR to every attack. Still, this class requires you to have +6 BAB to enter; at best, you'd get in next level. You also get the opportunity to throw your chosen weapon with a 10ft range increment, if my throwing idea sparked your interests. Just an idea.

This last point I'm unsure of: On standard action attacks, move one of your secondary arms to the other hand and take advantage of twice your STR to attacks. This is not an advantage with the Bastard Sword thing, but it's a tactic you'll probably find valuable.

EDIT: I take back the thing I said about larger-weapon features not stacking. Features based on Powerful Build don't tend to stack. This beetle thing doesn't have that, so you can use a big one-handed weapon and then use Strongarm Bracers to make 'em bigger. Like I said, you're probably better off using a Greatsword than spending a feat on Bastard Swords, but you can do strange things. If you're down some feats, take Shortsword, my oft-vaunted Strongarm bracers (Getting tired of the suggestion yet?), and use your class feature to get two Hugh shortswords. Statistically identical to the Greatswords you wanted, but they're both somehow Light. Now you can eliminate Oversized TWF.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 12:47 AM
Well, if you're going to go with two weapons like that, you'd like Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, which will eliminate the penalties for fighting with a weapon heavier than light in your off-hands.

The Diopsid racial abilities already take care of that.


You're not looking bad. Essentially, you have twice as many attacks as a similar fighter, with all the same trimmings, but you're a level down and a few feats behind. We can work with that. Much better than having to rely on DEX.

Yeah, it's actually a pretty cool race.


The most importable build for this bloke is probably a charging build, complimented with Pounce to take greater advantage of your extra attacks. You'll have less support for your choice of style, I think, being down so many feats as compared to the Fighter, but you can get in the basics: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a whole hell of a lot of STR.

Agreed. Hence my suggestion of taking the CC Pounce totem variant. That's really all this build needs to be effective, everything else is pretty much gravy.


A word on your weaponry: Splitting hairs over damage dice matters.

I was going to suggest that you just use a really big double weapon, but this is a terribly vague race. Check this contradiction: The diopsid's extra limbs allow it to use weapons one size category larger than normal without penalty... This benefit does not extend to larger weapons. So I can use big weapons, but only if they're not big? I can clearly use a Large Longsword. But a Large Longsword, with the penalty removed... Is a Greatsword. Is that what they're telling us? Choose any TWFable weapon you want and make it bigger for strange Greatsword substitute? Maybe that seems cool to you, but all that really means is you're the go-to guy when you loot a Giant's body.

There are two ways to use this strange feature. One, is that you ignore it completely, and use a pair of Greatswords... But then you make the Greatswords large by using Strongarm Bracers (From the Magic Item Compendium). Of all the ways to make weapons a few size-catagories bigger, you can't often stack them, so you may as well start out with the biggest medium weapon you can get and then make that bigger. You upgrade from 2d6 to 3d6 damage on both your weapons greatswords, this way. That's 3.5 extra damage, right there.

The point is that you can dual-wield two Greatswords, and add 1.5x Str mod damage from each weapon.

That's awesome.


The other option is to plan to go into Exotic Weapons Master, which is a cute class. It has a feature that lets you get twice your STR to damage whenever you two-hand your one-handed exotic weapon. That means you take a pair of bastard swords, make them large for 2d8 damage, and get twice your STR to every attack. Still, this class requires you to have +6 BAB to enter; at best, you'd get in next level.

That could work nicely, but it means you have to blow a feat on EWP.


This last point I'm unsure of: On standard action attacks, move one of your secondary arms to the other hand and take advantage of twice your STR to attacks. This is not an advantage with the Bastard Sword thing, but it's a tactic you'll probably find valuable.

I don't think that will work by RAW, since the secondary arms aren't true extra arms, they work only in conjunction with their own primary arm.

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-12, 12:58 AM
If you have access to Tome of Battle, some Warblade and Bloodclaw Master in there might be good in addition to your Lion Totem.

Eikre
2008-04-12, 01:04 AM
The Diopsid racial abilities already take care of that.

But they totally don't.


The diopsid gains the full benefits of wielding a two-handed weapon, such as 1-1/2 times its Strength bonus on damage rolls. The diopsid suffers the standard penalty for fighting with two weapons and carrying a non-light weapon in its off-hand.

Which sucks because now we have to do something about that.




The point is that you can dual-wield two Greatswords, and add 1.5x Str mod damage from each weapon.

That's awesome.

Okay, let's put it this way, before STR, these are the attack scemes of these equal ECL characters:

Level 6 Bug-Guy with TWF: +4/+4/-1/-1
Level 7 PHB-Guy with Whirling Frenzy: +5/+5/+0

At this level, you pay three feats and a class level so that you can pay for magic weapons twice and get a sub-par extra attack.

Think about it. We still need to be competitive. We need extra damage to make every one of those attacks worth it.

Now, I admit, Strongarm Bracers are something everyone can do. But we can probably eek something extra out of this strange feature. Like the Short-Sword thing.



I don't think that will work by RAW, since the secondary arms aren't true extra arms, they work only in conjunction with their own primary arm.

Yes, after further consideration, I agree. Still seems plausible. Ask your DM!

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 01:21 AM
But they totally don't.

Which sucks because now we have to do something about that.

Woops, you're right. I read it as "standard penalty... when carrying a light weapon in your off-hand", not non-light.


Okay, let's put it this way, before STR, these are the attack scemes of these equal ECL characters:

Level 6 Bug-Guy with TWF: +4/+4/-1/-1
Level 7 PHB-Guy with Whirling Frenzy: +5/+5/+0

You know that the Diopsid can take Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) too, right? :smallsmile:


Think about it. We still need to be competitive. We need extra damage to make every one of those attacks worth it.

I guess so. I was thinking more along the lines of this build needs extra to-hit to make sure every one of those attacks hit.


Now, I admit, Strongarm Bracers are something everyone can do. But we can probably eek something extra out of this strange feature. Like the Short-Sword thing.

What short-sword thing? Do you mean the EWM/Bastard Sword thing?


Yes, after further consideration, I agree. Still seems plausible. Ask your DM!

Never hurts to ask the DM. Just don't "bug" them too much :smallbiggrin:

Eikre
2008-04-12, 02:01 AM
You know that the Diopsid can take Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) too, right? :smallsmile:

But then he'll never hit.

Look, I was trying to draw as tight a comparison as I could. In fact, try this: Spend your three feats on Spiked Chain proficiency, Weapon Focus, something for damage. We'll say Specialization for simplicity. Spend your extra level on Exotic Weapons Master with Flurry. Now they have the same attack scheme and average damage. Not as high of a Crit on the chain, but we don't have to spend twice as much money on weapons, so we'll buy Keen.

Ultimately, the Bug keeps on picking something up that the human just did, but then the Human picks up something new with his extra level or class feature and still pulls ahead. We can't play that game.




What short-sword thing? Do you mean the EWM/Bastard Sword thing?

I edited my original post. Basically: Strongarm Bracers and Extra Arms stack, so you can use a Hugh one-handed weapon without penalty. Short swords are light, and Hugh short swords are otherwise statistically identical to Greatswords. See where I'm going?

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-12, 02:15 AM
The extra damage in this equation comes from Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, he still gets the increased return for it being wielded in two hands.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 02:26 AM
But then he'll never hit.

You could look at taking a level in Cleric with the War domain, and then pick up Law Devotion or Destruction devotion for big to-hit bonuses.


Ultimately, the Bug keeps on picking something up that the human just did, but then the Human picks up something new with his extra level or class feature and still pulls ahead. We can't play that game.

Well, you are getting the 1.5x Str mod to damage on each weapon, which pretty much makes up the difference. But you're right, there is still room for optimization.


I edited my original post. Basically: Strongarm Bracers and Extra Arms stack, so you can use a Hugh one-handed weapon without penalty. Short swords are light, and Hugh short swords are otherwise statistically identical to Greatswords. See where I'm going?

Yes, I see now, that is a good catch.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-12, 09:30 AM
I also like the idea of going the route of thrown weapons. Brutal Throw, from complete warrior, lets you use your STR mod instead of DEX for thrown weapon attack rolls. You get to toss bigger stuff more often than other throwing brutes, and you can take advantage of your extra attacks every turn because you can make them at a range. The downside is all your ammunition is really, really heavy. On the upside, unlike other ranged attacker, someone can step toe-to-toe with you and you can basically do the same thing you always do, but just keep your weapons in your hand.

:smallconfused: I never said anything about thrown weapons.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-12, 11:51 AM
I'm going to start with a level in Barbarian to keep things simple. I think I'll be taking Two-Weapon Fighting as my first feat, and then make further decisions as I level up. Is there anything else I should take into consideration?

Chronos
2008-04-12, 12:28 PM
Am I the only one who suspects that this race got mangled in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5? The weapon sizing rules work differently in the two editions, and it looks like these things are trying to use 3.0 rules in some places, and 3.5 in others.

Some examples would also have really helped in explaining how those extra arms work.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 01:31 PM
Am I the only one who suspects that this race got mangled in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5? The weapon sizing rules work differently in the two editions, and it looks like these things are trying to use 3.0 rules in some places, and 3.5 in others.

Some examples would also have really helped in explaining how those extra arms work.

The race was written in the year 2000, so it was definitely 3.0 all the way. I find the rules on the extra arms to be pretty straightforward, and they seem to translate just fine into 3.5. For a 3.0 creation written in the year 2000 with its own custom rules, it is surprisingly easy to convert.


I edited my original post. Basically: Strongarm Bracers and Extra Arms stack, so you can use a Hugh one-handed weapon without penalty. Short swords are light, and Hugh short swords are otherwise statistically identical to Greatswords. See where I'm going?

Wait, I took a second look at it, and I don't think that will work, due to this line in the Diopsid's racial traits: "This benefit does not extend to larger weapons". So it won't stack.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-12, 01:59 PM
Honestly, I was looking more along the lines of things like feat and skill selection and how many levels in what classes would be best, since I have no idea what kind of equipment I'll be getting.

Eikre
2008-04-12, 02:06 PM
The extra damage in this equation comes from Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, he still gets the increased return for it being wielded in two hands.

He's a low-level barbarian sinking feats in TWF. Pardon my complete disregard of this plan for use in the present.



Well, you are getting the 1.5x Str mod to damage on each weapon, which pretty much makes up the difference. But you're right, there is still room for optimization.

Yes, great, whatever, the human gets that on his single sword, too, and doesn't care. Ultimately, the Bug uses his resources to gain extra attacks with greatswords. Forget that there are two of them: Two attacks with two greatswords is the SAME DAMNED THING as four attacks with one greatsword. The Human, given the same resources, can do this too, and like I said, this goes on forever.

It works two ways: You take a cleric dip? So does the human! You take a Flurry feature? The Human ignores it because you're making yourself less effective with your terrible penalties. And then he takes Leap Attack.

I'm not saying that there's room for optimization. I'm saying that the Bug's feature is interesting, but if we take it at face value and proceed to do nothing with it, then we're the same as anyone else, and probably less powerful. To hell with the STR damage and extra attacks, think of something you can only do with two really big weapons, or forget that it's a feature at all and just optimize generic "Greatsword Fellow, Lotsa Attacks"




:smallconfused: I never said anything about thrown weapons.

No, you didn't, I did. In retrospect, it's not anything spectacular, but it's a route that fits your criteria (Two weapons! Bug! Barbarian) and meshes well with extra attacks.




I'm going to start with a level in Barbarian to keep things simple. I think I'll be taking Two-Weapon Fighting as my first feat, and then make further decisions as I level up. Is there anything else I should take into consideration?

You're level one? I thought you were ECL 7.

Alright, fine, my thoughts in summary: Take TWF, and use the Lion Totem barbarian variant from Complete Champion. Now you can charge and get both attacks whenever you want.

For weapons, you have Three choices:

Greatsword and Greatsword (2d6 and 2d6): Unfourtunately, you suffer more penalties for fighting with these two because you don't have a light weapon in your off-hand, meaning all your attacks are at -4 instead of -2. That sucks. In fact, it means you're 10% more likely not to hit. On the other hand, you get 1.5 STR to all your attacks, which is okay. This can be improved on in the future with Oversized TWF, but you don't have many feats if you ever want to get around to Leap Attack and stuff.

Greatsword and Large Shortsword (2d6 and 1d8 damage): The greatsword is your main weapon and the Shortsword, being a 'Light' weapon, is in your off-hand. This doesn't give you as many penalties, but you don't get 1.5 STR to attacks with the short sword; can't two-hand Light weapons in that way.

You could also go Greatsword/Small Spikes shield. But you would never really get the shield bonus, because you should be attacking every turn. So don't do that.

I wish you the best of luck.

Solo
2008-04-12, 02:36 PM
Wonderful... Beetle Borgs.

Eikre
2008-04-12, 03:25 PM
Oh, so many quotes. I got Ninja'd on these two:


Wait, I took a second look at it, and I don't think that will work, due to this line in the Diopsid's racial traits: "This benefit does not extend to larger weapons". So it won't stack.

I interpreted that as "Larger" in the Light/Onehand/Twohand axis, not the Small/Medium/Large axis. I mean, if the benefit doesn't extend to larger weapons, then you can't use the feature in the first place.

That said, the text says you can use a weapon one size larger than normal, and Strongarm Bracers let you use a weapon as if you were one size larger. Bracers make you considered Large for weapon use, and the Two Hands let you carry a weapon one size larger than usual.

In any case, using light weaponry voids the 1.5 STR, so we're probably not using that unless we have to.




Honestly, I was looking more along the lines of things like feat and skill selection and how many levels in what classes would be best, since I have no idea what kind of equipment I'll be getting.

Skills: You're a Barbarian. Listen and Survival are what you have over other warrior types, but you're probably not going to stick to Barbarian all your life, so don't sweat it too much. Jump is good for leaping over obstacles when you charge. Ride is alright, but you're not going to spend much time fighting on horseback, if ever. Intimidate is a crappy social skill, but it's all you have.

So, Jump, Listen, Survival, in that order. You have an INT penalty, so I don't think you need to worry much.

Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer)
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior: look under the Tactical Feats)
Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)


TWF is your bread and butter, so you're springing for TWF, Imp. TWF, and Greater TWF if you ever get that high. Pretty simple. You have to take those every five levels. Unfortunately, I just checked and found out that Oversized TWF only applies to one-handed weapons (they probably didn't expect anyone to have a pair of two-handed weapons), you you should use two Large Longswords. They're the same as Greatswords, but your buddies can't use them as easy and you can't find them in most towns. If you use them in two hands, they satisfy both One-Hand weapon requirements for Oversized TWF (Because they're one handed weapons) and Two-Handed requirements later (because you're using them in two hands). I think. I hope.

Then, you're going to be a Charger. You want Power Attack, get that early on. You also want Shock Trooper, which lets you take a hit to AC instead of BAB when you use Power Attack on a charge. That means you Power Attack for full, every time, and just use HP and DR instead of AC if you want to survive. Improved Bull Rush is a prerequisite for Shock Trooper, so you'll need that.

We already need bonus feats, which means we're taking a dip in Fighter at level 2 and 3.

Your build is looking like this:

1: Barbarian1: TWF
2: Fighter1, Barb1: Oversized TWF
3: Fighter2, Barb1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
4: Fighter2, Barb2: -
5: Fighter2, Barb3: -
6: Fighter2, Barb4: Shock Trooper

That's not looking terrible. You still have lots of feats that you want to take at this point: Leap Attack (Triples the Power Attack output), and Improved TWF (Because that's the point, right?). Unfortunately, we can only fit those in after level 6 because of prerequisites. If you take your fourth level of Fighter at 6 you can get one of those in, too, but that means you have to take the dead level 3. You can also go for Psionic Warrior; 3/4 BAB, but you get a bonus feat at levels 1 and 2 and also get a psionic power or two. Expansion is a good one, because it makes you bigger, which means your already huge weapons are even bigger, and you get some reach, so when you kill a guy in one hit you're more likely to have someone else nearby that you can use the other three attacks on.

After you have those feats, I don't care what you do. Really. If you go with the Psionic route, then you can go into Battle Mind which is a pretty good class with some free-action buffs and a mid-level ability that lets you attack two guys standing next to each other with one attack, which means you can break formations like nobody's business. I like that idea, because psionic bugs are so cool.

(I'm spending far too much time on this...)

Chronos
2008-04-12, 04:21 PM
Listen and Survival are what you have over other warrior types, but you're probably not going to stick to Barbarian all your life, so don't sweat it too much.My feeling is that any class with access to Listen and/or Spot should max at least one of them. Being surprised is bad. Not being surprised is good.


I interpreted that as "Larger" in the Light/Onehand/Twohand axis, not the Small/Medium/Large axis. I mean, if the benefit doesn't extend to larger weapons, then you can't use the feature in the first place.
If this is 3.0 material, then there is only one axis. I would interpret that "does not extend to larger" bit to mean "more than one category beyond normal".

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-12, 06:09 PM
The way I interpreted the spot that seems to be causing problems was that a diopsid can use Large 1-handed weapons, but not Large 2-handed weapons. So a Large longsword would be useable, but not a Large greatsword. I don't have access to my sourcebooks at the moment, but I'll work on setting this bad-boy up as soon as I can! Thank you all for your advice.:smallsmile:

Eikre
2008-04-12, 06:13 PM
Barbarian's don't get Spot, and this is from a 3.5 source.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-12, 06:24 PM
And one more thing. Diopsids live in the Underdark, so it's relatively safe to assume that there aren't any lions down there. What would be an Underdark creature that would be a suitable substitute for a lion? This is mostly just for flavor reasons.:smallredface:

Chronos
2008-04-12, 07:19 PM
Barbarians do get "Spot or listen". That was general advice I was giving, not limited to barbarians.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 09:20 PM
If this is 3.0 material, then there is only one axis. I would interpret that "does not extend to larger" bit to mean "more than one category beyond normal".

Agreed.


this is from a 3.5 source.

The Dragon magazine that the Diopsid came from was published in the year 2000, long before 3.5, and the Dragon Magazine Compendium did not update it as far as I can tell.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 09:30 PM
He's a low-level barbarian sinking feats in TWF. Pardon my complete disregard of this plan for use in the present.

Presumably he would take 2 or more levels in Fighter if he wanted to grab both the TWF tree and the ubercharger tree.


Yes, great, whatever, the human gets that on his single sword, too, and doesn't care. Ultimately, the Bug uses his resources to gain extra attacks with greatswords. Forget that there are two of them: Two attacks with two greatswords is the SAME DAMNED THING as four attacks with one greatsword. The Human, given the same resources, can do this too, and like I said, this goes on forever.

I'm sorry, how is the Human getting 4 Greatsword attacks to the Diopsid's 2? I think I missed something.


It works two ways: You take a cleric dip? So does the human! You take a Flurry feature? The Human ignores it because you're making yourself less effective with your terrible penalties. And then he takes Leap Attack.

I'm not saying that there's room for optimization. I'm saying that the Bug's feature is interesting, but if we take it at face value and proceed to do nothing with it, then we're the same as anyone else, and probably less powerful. To hell with the STR damage and extra attacks, think of something you can only do with two really big weapons, or forget that it's a feature at all and just optimize generic "Greatsword Fellow, Lotsa Attacks"

Well, yes, TWF is a suboptimal route when compared to THF, unless you have some scaling source of extra damage like Sneak Attack, and this build has a level of LA, which also 99% of the time is suboptimal. There is no getting around that. But the simple build of "Bug with lots of Greatsword attacks that each get 1.5x Str mod to damage", while not elite, is certainly no slouch. What's wrong with being slightly less powerful than you could otherwise be?

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-13, 04:58 PM
Precisely. I'm not looking for something to single-handedly take on any thing in the Monster Manual, just a fun character to play who can really dish out the pain!:smallamused: