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View Full Version : Help with gestalt build (MY PLAYERS DONT LOOK)



Fostire
2008-04-11, 09:10 PM
For the campaign im currently DMing (gestalt) one of the upcoming enemies will be a wererat Wizard 8//fighter 5/monk 3. I made the whole guy up to the point where i must choose the spells he will be using in the battle, when i noticed that a lycanthrope in hybrid form cannot use spells with verbal components (which happen to be pretty much every core spell).
I'd rather have the guy be hybrid the whole battle so i need him to silence his spells. To do that i gave him the sudden silent feat, silent spell feat, and a metamagic rod of silent spell. With all this he can cast 4 spells per day silenced without rising the spell level.
His spells per day are 4/5/4/3/2.
His enemies (the PCs) are:
-warmage 6//warlock 6
-bard 6//rogue 6
-wizard 6//human paragon 3/half-elf paragon 3

So my question is: what spells do i give this wererat to make a challenging battle?

Books allowed: Complete arcane, complete adventurer, unearthed arcana, libris mortis, and all core

jcsw
2008-04-11, 11:54 PM
Can't you just abuse your DM powers for homebrewing a variant of natural spell for lycanthropes? Seems way simpler to me XD.

FlyMolo
2008-04-12, 12:07 AM
I would say that as a DM, just spend another feat slot to get natural spell. RAI, it's supposed to let you spellcast while in another form, at its most basic. So it sorta applies in this case.

Nebo_
2008-04-12, 12:10 AM
I would say that as a DM, just spend another feat slot to get natural spell. RAI, it's supposed to let you spellcast while in another form, at its most basic. So it sorta applies in this case.

I agree. Bend the rules an let him have natural spell.


Wizard 8//fighter 5/monk 3

This is wrong. You simply don't take odd levels of fighter. Ever. Fill it with another monk level or bump it to fighter 6.

Hario
2008-04-12, 12:14 AM
Why not use many buffs like bulls strength before they go lycanthropic, another good buff is greater mighty wallop (Huge+ Natural attacks? check!), and if you can during battle keep a silenced blood wind if they are far away. Any low level spell you can always buy potions for and that will solve the verbal usage problem. 1 Level in barbarian will do wonders for that character and as if Fighter 5 was worth it compared to lion totem barbarian with pounce.

Everyman
2008-04-12, 10:21 AM
Man, I hope I'm not raining on the parade when I point this out: Your build isn't a legal gestalt build. If I'm wrong here, could someone kindly point it out?

An afflicted wererat automatically counts as a 4th level character in normal rules (1 class level HD, 1 animal HD, +2 LA). Since you are gestalting, this means that one half of your build must take that into account. Your wererat really looks more like this...

1 half: 1 (Fighter/Monk)/3 wererat/ (Fighter/Monk) 3
2 half: Wizard 8

-OR-
1 half: Wizard 1/ 3 wererat/ Wizard 4
2 half: Monk X/Fighter X

Frankly (if I'm right), I'd go with the second build, which provides a set of abilities (better BAB, skill points, ect) at the cost of 3 spell levels (only have access to 3rd level spells instead of 4th).

In either case, I'd recommend the Kung-fu Genius feat (allows INT to be used with monk abilities like AC and stunning fist) and houserule in a Natural spell equivalent for your lycan.

I'll post back with some spell suggestions later.

InkEyes
2008-04-12, 10:35 AM
He could be using the LA buyoff method, but that still wouldn't get rid of the animal HD.

Everyman
2008-04-12, 10:43 AM
The problem with the buy off method is that it doesn't sync well with gestalt. You end up with characters with powers and abilities that are too strong, even by gestalt standards.

By the way, a 4 monk/4 fighter build is definately superior to 3 monk/5 fighter.

4/4: +7 BAB, +8 Fort, +5 Reflex and Will, better skill points, more class features, marginally worse HD.

3/5: +7 BAB, +7 Fort, +4 Reflex and Will, worse skill points, less cl. features, marginally better HD

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-12, 10:46 AM
How about Wizard 8/Wererat HD 1/Wererat LA 1//Fighter 5/Monk 3/Wererat LA 2

And yes, dump a level of either fighter or monk. Maybe even make it Wizard 9 and Fighter 4.

Everyman
2008-04-12, 10:55 AM
Sstoopidtallkid, I'm pretty sure he's gotta take the animal HD and LA as one package. It somehow seems kind of cheesy to be able to break it up like that. Of course, I could be wrong, but I would be hard pressed to find a DM that would allow that (and I certainly wouldn't myself).

_Puppetmaster_
2008-04-12, 11:09 AM
the right side of the last build should be human paragon/half-elf paragon.

Fostire
2008-04-12, 11:14 AM
Man, I hope I'm not raining on the parade when I point this out: Your build isn't a legal gestalt build. If I'm wrong here, could someone kindly point it out?

An afflicted wererat automatically counts as a 4th level character in normal rules (1 class level HD, 1 animal HD, +2 LA). Since you are gestalting, this means that one half of your build must take that into account. Your wererat really looks more like this...

1 half: 1 (Fighter/Monk)/3 wererat/ (Fighter/Monk) 3
2 half: Wizard 8

-OR-
1 half: Wizard 1/ 3 wererat/ Wizard 4
2 half: Monk X/Fighter X

Frankly (if I'm right), I'd go with the second build, which provides a set of abilities (better BAB, skill points, ect) at the cost of 3 spell levels (only have access to 3rd level spells instead of 4th).

Yeah you are right, wererat adds 1 racial HD, so as it is my wererat is actually 8.5 character level. but since he is an afflicted lycanthrope i thought it odd that he would gain a class level too when afflicted (anyone know how that works?).


In either case, I'd recommend the Kung-fu Genius feat (allows INT to be used with monk abilities like AC and stunning fist) and houserule in a Natural spell equivalent for your lycan.
Does stunning fist work with natural attacks?, cause natural attacks count as armed attacks.


This is wrong. You simply don't take odd levels of fighter. Ever. Fill it with another monk level or bump it to fighter 6.
The only reason it has 3 levels of monk is for the fast movement and evasion, i would have added 1 level barbarian instead but the wererat is lawful evil. Also the monk levels might change, right now im doing the wizard levels.


the right side of the last build should be human paragon/half-elf paragon.

i knew there was something wrong with it, ill fix that

The natural spell variant feat seems like a good idea, that way my PCs dont get a free metamagic rod when (if) they win.

Ok now that my spell slots are less limited, what spells should he have prepared for this battle. If possible i'd like him to escape and return later, so i was thinking maybe giving him rope trick or dimension door (they will be fighting in a 25x25 feet closed tower about 60 feet tall).