the anti-palladin thread

[Gamerlord]

in this thread we can all talk about the how much we hate those evil,vile beings known as palladins!

hooray for redclock

death to all paladins!

[Paladin29]

Looks like i must make some "smite evil" around here :smallbiggrin:

[PaladinFreak]

Hi. I due to the title of the thread, I felt I just had to post here. I mean, come on. Paladin does not equal Miko. I've seen well played Paladins, I've played Paladins in ways that do not mess with party dynamics.

I must qualify this with the following statment: The Paladin class, when taken to it's logical extreme, is Miko (minus the psychotic rage, of course). This is very bad.

[NerfTW]

Hi. I due to the title of the thread, I felt I just had to post here. I mean, come on. Paladin does not equal Miko. I've seen well played Paladins, I've played Paladins in ways that do not mess with party dynamics.

I must qualify this with the following statment: The Paladin class, when taken to it's logical extreme, is Miko (minus the psychotic rage, of course). This is very bad.

Hi. Due to your missing the point that he's posting a pro-goblin rant, I felt I just had to post here. I mean, come on. They butchered his entire village and family. Miko has nothing to do with this thread.

[Green Bean]

evil,vile beings known as palladins!


bwhahha i am evil!

gamerkid=paladin? :smalltongue:

[Callista]

I can see Redcloak as a Paladin of Tyranny, actually. He's got the ideology down pat.


Looks like i must make some "smite evil" around here :smallbiggrin:Not yet--they're only talking, for now. They do bear watching as a potential threat, though. *switches on Detect Evil*

(Rogue/Paladin sheriff ftw! You have to try it. It is VERY cool.)

[Kish]

Perversity is a basic human motivation.

I don't think Gamerkid is too interested in the paladins having butchered Redcloak's family really, considering his past posts. And I'm nearly certain it has nothing to do with Miko.

[hamishspence]

yes, I don't object to paladins, when written right.

[Supreme Evil]

I post here because I dislike paladins. Especially the ones that killed Redcloak's family and village even after they had taken out who they had come for. They showed no regard for the lives of innocent women, children, and elderly goblins. And Miko. Definitely Miko.

Go Redcloak! Death to paladins!

[Callista]

See, I don't understand that; it clashes with every other portrayal of "paladin" I've seen in this strip--even Miko, who would've fit right into that group, fell when she attacked an innocent person. Either those weren't paladins, or something else was going on.

BTW, I can see goblin kids being innocent, but goblin teenagers? Not so much. They're old enough to make their own choices (including rebelling against their parents and becoming Good-aligned!). Human teens can become downright evil when they get desperate enough to join gangs, etc... Smiting the equivalent of a goblin 12 year old wouldn't strike me as particularly evil, if they were actively fighting you and a credible threat. That's not because I hate goblins, but because I know what young human teens are capable of, both good and evil, and that includes moral decisions.

[Kish]

See, I don't understand that; it clashes with every other portrayal of "paladin" I've seen in this strip--
How about the paladin in Roy's first group in OtOoPCs?

[NerfTW]

See, I don't understand that; it clashes with every other portrayal of "paladin" I've seen in this strip--even Miko, who would've fit right into that group, fell when she attacked an innocent person. Either those weren't paladins, or something else was going on.


As explained in Start of Darkness,

the sub-human races were created by the gods specifically for their clerics/paladins to level up on. Hence the Dark One's whole plot to make them equal to the other races.

Regardless of the base rules, in the OotS universe, the Gods themselves declared that butchering the "monster" races is completely acceptable and good, even for Paladins.

[Remirach]

See, I don't understand that; it clashes with every other portrayal of "paladin" I've seen in this strip--even Miko, who would've fit right into that group, fell when she attacked an innocent person. Either those weren't paladins, or something else was going on.
Miko fell for killing an innocent human, not person, and that human was further a follower of the 12 Southern gods, not some upstart deity most of the others wanted to blast on the spot rather than share power with.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Miko fell for killing an innocent human,Lord Shojo was not innocent. Let me make this perfectly clear; being a manipulative bastard, faking senility, and lying to an order of paladins is wrong. The reason why Miko fell was because she committed regicide; she placed herself as judge, jury, and executioner when it was not her place.

[Remirach]

Lord Shojo was not innocent. Let me make this perfectly clear; being a manipulative bastard, faking senility, and lying to an order of paladins is wrong. The reason why Miko fell was because she committed regicide; she placed herself as judge, jury, and executioner when it was not her place.
Well, either way, it says nothing as to what her fate would have been had she slain an innocent humanoid.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Quite true; I am betting Goblins have the [EVIL] subtype in the OotS world.

[TheNifty]

Lord Shojo was not innocent. Let me make this perfectly clear; being a manipulative bastard, faking senility, and lying to an order of paladins is wrong. The reason why Miko fell was because she committed regicide; she placed herself as judge, jury, and executioner when it was not her place.

Gotta disagree there. Shoujo was chaotic good, as was stated in the script. A paladin will fall if they ever kill a good aligned creature. On the other hand, a paladin could kill an evil king - imagine a paladin encountering say, a Caligula-type king who murdered dozens of his subjects for kicks.

Before you scream "that wouldn't be lawful!" keep in mind that the example for the lawful good alignment is something like:

"A loyal soldier who refuses to obey an order to slaughter a civilian village." (not verbatim)

A paladin can behave in a non-lawful fashion if the cause is "good" enough, they just shouldn't make a habit out of it. Justifiable Regicide* wouldn't cause a paladin to fall. Obeying an evil king might.

*incidentally, how awesome would "Justifiable Regicide" be for a band name?

[Callista]

What I meant: "killing an innocent"="killing someone not deserving of death". Lying and manipulating people don't deserve the death penalty. Thus, Shojo=innocent.

[Paladin29]

I can see Redcloak as a Paladin of Tyranny, actually. He's got the ideology down pat.

Not yet--they're only talking, for now. They do bear watching as a potential threat, though. *switches on Detect Evil*

(Rogue/Paladin sheriff ftw! You have to try it. It is VERY cool.)

Ok, *switches on Detect Evil too*... ¡ey.. you, take down this lead sheet! :smalltongue:

Paladin sheriff??... interesting... how is that?

[Gamerlord]

Ok, *switches on Detect Evil too*... ¡ey.. you, take down this lead sheet! :smalltongue:


no thanks,my culture wears lead sheets to show our STR scores

[Renegade Paladin]

I can see Redcloak as a Paladin of Tyranny, actually. He's got the ideology down pat.

Not yet--they're only talking, for now. They do bear watching as a potential threat, though. *switches on Detect Evil*

(Rogue/Paladin sheriff ftw! You have to try it. It is VERY cool.)
Indeed it is. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=2364) :smallbiggrin:

As for the OP... *Smites Gamerkid.*

There. Had that coming for awhile, but I've shown restraint until now. :smalltongue:

[Gamerlord]

As for the OP... *Smites Gamerkid.*

There. Had that coming for awhile, but I've shown restraint until now. :smalltongue:
DR sucka! that did't affect me at all...SMITE GOOD!

[Bago!!!]

WHOOT! About time someone does an anti something thread!

Course, I don't hate paladins, played one once, loved it! But, since smiting has begun, maybe I should bring start launching fireballs.... But who should I launch at? The holy ones or the blasphemers....


.... Do you include paladins of Menoth on your list gamerkid?

[Serpentine]

Lord Shojo was not innocent. Let me make this perfectly clear; being a manipulative bastard, faking senility, and lying to an order of paladins is wrong. The reason why Miko fell was because she committed regicide; she placed herself as judge, jury, and executioner when it was not her place.Uh... He was doing all this with the blessings of the gods. The Good gods. Therefore it was not wrong, and although committing regicide was certainly a part of her fall, ultimately, I think, it was because she did something her gods really didn't want her to (the usual breaking of her code would also come under this).
Anyway, I've never seen a paladin played well or poorly (for someone who feels so passionately against them, I find it odd you didn't spell it right :smallconfused:), and I haven't read the book, so eh.

[Gamerlord]

.... Do you include paladins of Menoth on your list gamerkid?
you mean list of paladins i hate? heres a list:
list of paladins i hate:
anything with the word "miko" in it
anything with the word "twelve gods" or "azure city" in it

[Athaniar]

So you only hate Azure City paladins, not other paladins, not even the infamous Grey Guard? Not even other paladins who goes around killing innocent goblins? Not even other paladins in the OotS world (like the mentioned Roy's Party Paladin from OtOotPC?)

[Gamerlord]

correct
but what paldin from roys group?

[Renegade Paladin]

The one from Roy's first adventuring party, before he formed the OotS.

[Athaniar]

What makes the Azure paladins worse than others? Why are such people as O-Chul and Hinjo worse than others?

[NerfTW]

correct
but what paldin from roys group?

In Origin of PCs, Roy met Durkon in a group that included a Paladin who just wanted the class benefits, and was barely following the rules.

[Gamerlord]

In Origin of PCs, Roy met Durkon in a group that included a Paladin who just wanted the class benefits, and was barely following the rules.
why did't he become a blackguard?

[Mando Knight]

*incidentally, how awesome would "Justifiable Regicide" be for a band name?

Eh... A bit lengthy, if ya' ask me...

gamerkid: SMITE EVIL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxgx4o8AzH4&feature=related) OP!

You'll get no sympathy from me.

[Gamerlord]

what's "OP" mean?
if you mean me...DR sucka!
(pulls off attack so awesome words can't describe it)

[factotum]

why did't he become a blackguard?

A Paladin who doesn't follow the rules doesn't become a blackguard, they simply lose their paladin powers. They have to actively embrace evil to trade in the Paladin levels for Blackguard levels.

[ShellBullet]

A Paladin who doesn't follow the rules doesn't become a blackguard, they simply lose their paladin powers. They have to actively embrace evil to trade in the Paladin levels for Blackguard levels.

I think, they also need to make deal with devil..Or was it demon, however most people don't want to make deals with devils/demons since most of the time they will be screwed.

[Kish]

why did't he become a blackguard?
Because blackguards are villains, and villains don't generally have a long life expectency. Remember, no fourth wall.

[The Hop Goblin]

what's "OP" mean?

OP = Original Poster.



if you mean me...DR sucka!
(pulls off attack so awesome words can't describe it)

Uh.... right.

If anyone wants to read a book on the epitome of being a paladin, find a copy of the series "Deed of Paxinarrion". A truly inspiring tale, and something to offset the "Miko Factor".

[Mewtarthio]

Gotta disagree there. Shoujo was chaotic good, as was stated in the script. A paladin will fall if they ever kill a good aligned creature. On the other hand, a paladin could kill an evil king - imagine a paladin encountering say, a Caligula-type king who murdered dozens of his subjects for kicks.

Strictly speaking, paladins don't fall for killing Good creatures. They fall for comitting Evil acts. A paladin could conceivably be forced to kill a Good creature and not fall immediately, though he may wish to atone afterwards (in the religious sense, not the magical atonement spell).

Re: The evil king: A paladin is still Lawful Good, so I'd see them using assassination only as a last resort. If there's some sort of higher authority that could remove the king from power, the paladin should go there first. That's why Miko fell: In her paranoia, she declared herself above the existing courts, and executed Shojo on the spot. Idiocy is not a crime*: Hubris is.

*Note that an idiotic paladin can fall for unknowingly comitting evil actions, but atonement is not difficult in that case. Ideally, the paladin's church would pair him up with someone smarter.

[hamishspence]

and for definitions of evil acts in detail in a D&D context, you need vile darkness, unless you wish to be entirely at the mercy of DM fiat.

And even being magically forced to commit evil acts cause loss of powers, according to PHB rules on atonement spell. in 3rd ed, it made it clear atonement was only available to the paladin whose act was magically forced, or unknowing. in 3.5 they opened it up so willful acts could be atoned for too (though the cleric casting it had to pay XP)

Champions of Ruin, 3.5ed faerun sourcebook, stresses atonement spell is primarily for DMs who do not wish to spend ages with player roleplaying it, or, to stress that the ordinary citizens in game need visual proof that paladin is acceptable for society again after really nasty acts.

[xyzchyx]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought maybe people were discussing the old antipaladin class from Dragon Magazine, otherwise known as the Blackguard in more modern edition of D&D.

I'm sort of disappointed, actually.

[Jayabalard]

Miko fell for killing an innocent human, not person, and that human was further a follower of the 12 Southern gods, not some upstart deity most of the others wanted to blast on the spot rather than share power with.I'm pretty sure that Shojo, while human, also counts as a person, while goblins in the oots world do not.

[EvilElitest]

in this thread we can all talk about the how much we hate those evil,vile beings known as palladins!

hooray for redclock

death to all paladins!

paladins are actually a great class, i is just when they are badly used that they cause problems
from
EE

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I think, they also need to make deal with devil..Or was it demon, however most people don't want to make deals with devils/demons since most of the time they will be screwed.

The demons usually offer a little something to sweeten the pot. One of the Necromancer Games adventure modules includes an interesting offer:
The adventuers are questing for an ancient sword for the paladin of the party. When they finally overcome the demons guarding the sword, the final "trap" is sprung: The sword is false, and is an exact duplicate of the sword they were looking for. When the sword is picked up by the paladin, Orcus will offer a deal.

The offer is this: Slay your friends, convert to blackguard, and the Demon Lord Orcus will promote your character 2 levels, provide a suit of demon armor, and two demon servants. Refuse, and the memory of the offer is wiped from your mind. The new sword drives the paladin character to committing crimes against the innocent.

To rid themselves of the possessed sword, the characters must return to where they found the sword, fight the demons AGAIN, then find the true sword.

The offer is an interesting look at human nature. Would you kill your friend's characters for more personal power?

(Spoilered in case you're considering playing "Demons and Devils," Module L1.)

[Mewtarthio]

The demons usually offer a little something to sweeten the pot. One of the Necromancer Games adventure modules includes an interesting offer:

That... that doesn't make much sense at all. Someone's alignment isn't just a code that they're sworn to follow. You can't decide to be Evil because the Dark Side has free cookies. It's your outlook on life. It can be changed, yes, but not at a whim. If you're the type of person to cut a deal with a Demon if you're offered enough power, then odds are you never were Lawful Good in the first place (though an LG person could justify their acceptance, and so slip into Evil).

Paladins are the epitome of Lawful Good. If they cease to be Lawful Good, they lose their powers. That means that, unlike other Lawful Good characters, they can't be slowly corrupted to the Dark Side, until one day they look up and realize they've got their enemies' children's heads on pikes outside their tents. A Paladin notices himself sliding down the slippery slope long before he gets to that point. Corrupting a Paladin should be a whole lot harder than offering a large bribe. The very fact that they are Paladins at all signifies that they put their faith in a certain ideal. To corrupt a Paladin, you need to find out what ideal they hold dear, and convince them that the path of the Paladin will fail to protect it. More to the point, if a Paladin falls, they do so with good intentions.

Or you could just stick a helm of opposite alignment on their heads.

[Gamerlord]

Or you could just stick a helm of opposite alignment on their heads.
good idea "puts one on hinjo,you,and renegade paladin and also paladin29" :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Paladin29]

I have a self-destruction system that destroy all in a radius of a hundred miles before i change aligment :smalltongue:

[Remirach]

I'm pretty sure that Shojo, while human, also counts as a person, while goblins in the oots world do not.
Sure, that's basically just going about it the other way around, saying that paladins can't kill innocent PEOPLE (but goblins aren't people) instead of saying that paladins don't necessarily fall for killing PEOPLE but WILL fall for killing innocent humans (or other PC races). (In case it wasn't clear, my post was saying that she didn't just kill a "person," I wasn't trying to say Shojo wasn't, himself, a person.) Basically the point being that goblins and humans are in two different categories when it comes to the moral validity of execution.

But just to be nitpicky I'll note that "person" specifically means "humanoid" for the purposes of the "hold person" spell, and we see that very spell used against Redcloak's older brother. So there's one definition in OOTS-verse of "person" that includes goblin.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I have a self-destruction system that destroy all in a radius of a hundred miles before i change aligment :smalltongue:

Interesting. So if some demon were to sneak up behind you, and clap a helm of Opposite Alignment while you were tending to the needs of the orphans at the "Happy Sunshine Fluffy Bunny Orphanage" they would all die.

By your chosen actions, you have risked the death and doom of hundreds of innocent, parentless, helpless children. Sounds rather chaotic, and a bit evil, if you ask me. :smallwink:

As for my other post, it's a mix of gamer munchkinism, maybe a bit of "we've played this game the same way for so long, let's shake things up a bit," and even the opportunity to "get back" for all the snarky anti-Paladin comments some of your friends might have made over the years. Because, let's face it, who would have seen it coming?

Especially if it were, say, Paladin29 suddenly going from "Fighting the Good fight" to slaying his friends in a blood fury! I mean, the flatfooted and suprise round bonuses would be CRUSHING!

[Gamerlord]

not even the infamous Grey Guard?
what grey guard? i hate all paladins who have done wrong to the following races:
gnoll
dragon
anything thats not in the players handbook 1

[Paladin29]

Interesting. So if some demon were to sneak up behind you, and clap a helm of Opposite Alignment while you were tending to the needs of the orphans at the "Happy Sunshine Fluffy Bunny Orphanage" they would all die.

By your chosen actions, you have risked the death and doom of hundreds of innocent, parentless, helpless children. Sounds rather chaotic, and a bit evil, if you ask me. :smallwink:

Alert!, Alert!... aligment paradox!... malfunction!..MALFUNCTION!!

Well, let´s change the apocaliptic blast for a chocolate cake rain :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

i hate all paladins who have done wrong to the following races:
dragon

What? Paladins like dragons... so long as they're shiny... a Paladinic order of Bahamut, Dragon of Awesome Shiny Goodness, would be quite reasonable.

[Athaniar]

Especially now with 4E, since Bahamut is the god of lawfuly goodness and paladins are cleric-fighter hybrids.

[Gamerlord]

Especially now with 4E, since Bahamut is the god of lawfuly goodness and paladins are cleric-fighter hybrids.
not only do i hate paladins i ALSO hate 4e for removing bards from the core...who's bright idea was it to remove bards from core book cause i got a hadoken for him...

[Dorizzit]

Sorry, SHO. However, I somehow doubt that would have been easy, since this was designed as a paladin hate thread. Maybe you could start a different one based around debate?

[Kd7sov]

If anyone wants to read a book on the epitome of being a paladin, find a copy of the series "Deed of Paxinarrion". A truly inspiring tale, and something to offset the "Miko Factor".

"The Deed of Paksenarrion", actually. By Elizabeth Moon. A trilogy consisting of Sheepfarmer's Daughter, Divided Allegiance, and Oath of Gold. The same world also contains the "Legacy of Gird" prequel dualogy, one of the short stories contained in the anthology "Lunar Activity", and one of the short stories contained in the anthology "Moon Flights".

And, curse it, neither of my local library systems has the three component books - just the omnibus, which is too large to fit in my jacket pocket. :smallfrown:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Sorry, SHO. However, I somehow doubt that would have been easy, since this was designed as a paladin hate thread. Maybe you could start a different one based around debate?

Well, getting a paladin to fall IS a favorite topic of paladin haters. :smallbiggrin:

[Renegade Paladin]

good idea "puts one on hinjo,you,and renegade paladin and also paladin29" :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:
Pffft. The save DC is a mere 15. My bonus is higher than that. :smallamused:

[The Hop Goblin]

"The Deed of Paksenarrion", actually. By Elizabeth Moon. A trilogy consisting of Sheepfarmer's Daughter, Divided Allegiance, and Oath of Gold. The same world also contains the "Legacy of Gird" prequel dualogy, one of the short stories contained in the anthology "Lunar Activity", and one of the short stories contained in the anthology "Moon Flights".

And, curse it, neither of my local library systems has the three component books - just the omnibus, which is too large to fit in my jacket pocket. :smallfrown:

Thanks for the spelling correction - I stand corrected. But I did not know about the other books - I will definently look into those, as I was highly impressed by Elizabeth Moon.

[TheNifty]

I'm gonna try to get this thread vaguely back on track...


Strictly speaking, paladins don't fall for killing Good creatures. They fall for comitting Evil acts. A paladin could conceivably be forced to kill a Good creature and not fall immediately, though he may wish to atone afterwards (in the religious sense, not the magical atonement spell).

I've got the Book of Exalted Deeds open right in front of me, and the short answer is no, a paladin cannot kill a good creature;

Good ends might sometimes demand evil means. The means
remain evil, however, and so characters who are serious about
their good alignment and exalted status cannot resort to them,
no matter how great the need.

Of course, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds paladins can't kill noncombatants without falling, which we've already seen them do (in SoD) so it may be OOTS paladins run on different rules than straight D&D paladins.

[hamishspence]

Some people argue Exalted Deeds is an option only and core D&D does not uses its, or Vile Darknesses, definitions of Good and evil.

I personally like those paragraphs in the first few chapters of each book, but recognize that the books can be a little buggy. But am not keen on the whole "Exalted deeds morality is warped and evil" argument.

[Paladin29]

I think that paladins are in other level than a normal LG character, roleplaying a paladin must be more rigid.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

someone should make a topic where posters can fight each ohter

Yeah, I think they have that down in Silly Message Board games.

This started as an anti-paladin thread, but you and whatshisface got into your badger vs. street fighter thing right at the same time I put up the "Tempting? Offer" post.

Paladins fall, or don't fall, depending on a number of factors, their gaming group and DM being the major ones. Anyone who reads Goblins KNOWS Kore should have fallen years ago, but somehow he remains a paladin.

Other DMs, or even commentators on paladins will sometimes "Zing" paladins like I did with Paladin29. It doesn't mean I don't think paladins are good or bad, I look at characters from both the game point of view, and the gamer point of view. Paladins are the "Good" guys in the game, but gamers often abuse the other players by using their paladin powers and the paladin code to force the other players at the table to do things "their" way.

This is why when I see people spewing hatred at Miko, I ask if they actually hate Miko, or if they hate "their" group's DM's control freak (girl)friend. :smallannoyed:

So from either a "game" or "gamer" point of view, what tempting offer, and under what circumstances, will a player have his character accept a deal to go blackguard?

[Gamerlord]

Yeah, I think they have that down in Silly Message Board games.

really? where?

[pjackson]

Either those weren't paladins, or something else was going on.


They were paladins and something else was going one.

It wasn't a village that was attack - it was the attendants at a ceremony to an evil god - which we saw the end of with Red cloak being ordained.
The paladins had checked that all of them were Evil (panel 3, page 10 SoD) so none were innocent.
They knew that one of them was a great threat to creation, but it appears that they did not know who that was.

[pjackson]

Of course, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds paladins can't kill noncombatants without falling, which we've already seen them do (in SoD) so it may be OOTS paladins run on different rules than straight D&D paladins.

It is not certain that we have seen paladins kill non-combatants.
We have seen goblin women and children fight, so they are not culturally non-combatants.

[hamishspence]

non of the goblin children we see are armed in the SoD massacre near start of book. Where do we see them with weapons? And Redcloaks nephew was 14 years old, and a lot taller, when he fought alongside him. And the flashback scene to RightEye's family being killed, again shows the youngest looking distinctly taller than he did in the circus scenes.

SO, what we see early in SoD is multiple unarmed Goblins being attacked without warning, and unarmed goblins noticably smaller than the adults being slain. So, one could reasonably say that a smaller, unarmed goblin, is a child non-combatant.

[hamishspence]

A person doesn't have to be innocent for it to break the Just Cause rule in Exalted Deeds: a man who is evil, but just got out of jail, and hasn't commited another crime yet, would set off Paladins "Evil Radar" Can a paladin attack him when he is unarmed, with no evidence of a crime commited? Not by Exalted Deeds.

And worshipping an evil deity doesn't mean character is required to be evil (Neutral clerics of evil deities exist) This would be valid if Dark One was LE. If NE, clerics would have to be evil.

And the purple cloaked goblin in Dungeon Crawling Fools is high priest of this "big demon prince guy": so, not evidence that the Dark One requires drinking blood of innocent.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

really? where?

I'd recommend Stabbity Death. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70261) Good, silly fun.

That, or create your own thread in the Silly Message Board forum. They've got a pool and a pond. For you, I'd recommend the pond. :smallbiggrin:

[Paladin29]

Well, I guess I´ll accept become a blackguard if all the evil gods, demons, devils and that kind of people destroy themselves (after that my paladin or new blackguard will suicide)... Deal? :smalltongue:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, I guess I´ll accept become a blackguard if all the evil gods, demons, devils and that kind of people destroy themselves (after that my paladin or new blackguard will suicide)... Deal? :smalltongue:

You already blew your chance with your self-destruction contingency at the "Happy Sunshine Fluffy Bunny Orphanage." Your contingency against the Helm of Opposite Alignment took out the demon hitman, but it also took out over two dozen orphans.

Thanks for playing our game! :smallbiggrin:

[Callista]

In general, if you are a high level Paladin,you want to have a plan in case somebody tries to magically change your alignment, because eventually somebody will try. At low levels, you can count on your order to either reverse the effect or put you out of commission; but once you're high enough level, you can't count on the cavalry--you ARE the cavalry. That means if you're high level, you'd better make sure you're not a threat if you're forcibly turned Evil.

For example, Contingent Spells work nicely. Buy an Exalted Fury spell (for safety, you should get two) to go off on the trigger, "If my alignment changes to Evil". You want to do this secretly; otherwise your enemies will dispel the Contingency before they try anything (but even that gives you a round to react). So let's say the worst happens: You're affected by a spell or an effect that flips your alignment. But the same round that happens, your Contingencies go off: Every Evil creature in the area take damage equal to twice your HP plus 100. That should be enough to finish them off. As a bonus, you die--that means you're no longer a threat, at least immediately. A third Contingency could be set to send a message to a trusted ally with the information about what just happened, so that there's a chance of rescuing your soul (which is now evil and probably in the Abyss or Nine Hells) and turning you back to the proper alignment.

If you're lucky, it'll never go off; but it does help avert the paladin's worst nightmare somewhat.

Oh, and this also makes a very good adventure hook. Check the expression on the players' faces when they discover that the soul they set out to rescue is indeed that of a paladin... but it's now Evil, and they have to deal with that on top of the balors that are probably hunting them!

[Mando Knight]

Have a Contingency spell set to magically return your alignment to LG if you turn Evil. It's that simple! ...unless the spell can't be used that way...

[Callista]

Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) is a spell that automatically casts another spell when some condition is met.
Craft Contingent Spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=4) is a feat that lets you create contingent spells which you can place on yourself or another person. These are different from Contingency in that they last indefinitely, multiple ones can be in effect on the same person, and depending on how you interpret the rules, slightly higher level spells are possible. But, of course, it takes a feat and costs XP and GP. Also, if you abuse it, your DM will ban it. So don't.

These little gems are yet another good reason for the local Paladin to cultivate good relationships with his magic-using buddies.

The possibilities for returning your alignment to LG are Wish/Miracle and Sanctify the Wicked, which takes a year and allows a save (making it too dangerous). Limited Wish could possibly do it. If your DM lets you Contingency a Wish or Miracle to return your alignment to LG, it would be a better option--unless your enemy just tries again immediately afterwards!

That's why I picked Exalted Fury; it will also kill the enemy trying to turn your alignment, and no spell that you can survive is likely to kill your enemies in one casting. With the Wish/Miracle option, he's alive and free to try again.

If you had the cash, of course, you could do both. So your contingency on the Exalted Fury would be, "If my alignment turns to evil and the Wish/Miracle has already been expended." Or you could combine Wish/Miracle with Phoenix Fire, both set to go off on alignment change, killing your enemies and restoring your alignment at the cost of one level.

With the rules for Contingency, of course you will need a high level spellcaster for any of these options; Wish, Miracle, and Exalted fury are all 9th level spells, and Phoenix Fire is a 7th level spell. Depending on which interpretation (Contingency or Craft Contingent Spell) you use, for Wish, Miracle, or EF, you will either need a crafter of either at least 18th level (Craft Contingent Spell), or at least 27th level (Contingency). Phoenix Fire requires either a 14th or 21st level crafter. So when I say "high level", I mean "high level"....

The trouble with spells below about 8th level is that there's no way to reverse an alignment change. So at mid-levels your only option is to incapacitate both yourself and your enemies while sending a message to your allies. At low levels, you might have to do just the message. And at very low levels, your opponents won't have access to a helm of opposite alignment unless your DM is really evil.

You could do it at lower levels by using Craft Contingent Spell on any number of spells which harm only evil creatures. You'd have to use more than one contingent spell because you would want to kill all your attackers (meaning you'd have to use the feat, not the spell; you can only have one Contingency active at a time, but you can have as many Contingent Spells as you have HD), each hooked to a different spell that either damages only evil creatures or else puts you out of commission--a Flesh to Stone would be good, plus a Teleport to your party's inner sanctum; but you might just decide to nuke all evil in the area (including your now-evil self), which is cheaper. You'd need to metamagic the FtS to beat your (reduced) save; or else you could just target a half-dozen Evil-damaging damaging spells on your position. The FtS is a bit more risky but only takes Break Enchantment to reverse; nuking yourself obviously requires a Resurrection.

I wouldn't get that complicated if I were playing a paladin, unless I knew I had enemies that were out to forcibly convert me.

[Paladin29]

You already blew your chance with your self-destruction contingency at the "Happy Sunshine Fluffy Bunny Orphanage." Your contingency against the Helm of Opposite Alignment took out the demon hitman, but it also took out over two dozen orphans.

Thanks for playing our game! :smallbiggrin:

Noooooo!!!... poor fluffy Bunny orphans :smallfrown:

Callista, thanks for your posts, you give me some ideas for my paladin, that contingencies can be very usefull :smallbiggrin:

[monty]

I should mention that paladins and goblins are not mutually exclusive. Check out Big Ears in Goblins (http://www.goblinscomic.com/).

[Cthulhu101]

I lost 5 asmodeus', 10 lich's, and 20 demogorgons to a paladin. I'm considering just making a level 200 sorceror lich and a level 50 archmage. The guy's already butchered my pantheon.

[monty]

In an attempt to change the subject back to something resembling the original topic, I would like to see
a group of non-evil hobgoblins form a resistance group and become paladins and/or other miscellaneous paragons of goodness. Then they meet the existing resistance group (whatever it's called), and ultimately join together to retake the city.

[Mordokai]

Out of sheer curiosity, gamerkid, how old are you?

As on subject, I hate paladin haters. Hating paladins because it's cool is NOT cool. Let me repeat that. It's NOT cool! For every Miko, there is Hinjo or O'Chul. Paladins have done this world(as in DnD world, or OOTS verse, for that matter) a great favor. All you wannabe evil cool kids would wimper at first sight of demon, devil or indeed, goblin, I dare say. The DnD world would be royaly screwed if it wasn't for paladins. To who do you go when you need trustworty person? Who do you ask for help when nobody else will help you? Who to turn to for help when beseted by monsters? Sure as hell not that guy who calls on to demons for help.

Face it kid, paladins are there to stay. If you can't up with a good reason for hating them, and I very much doubt you can, you're just making an ass out of yourself.

[Vulion]

I believe that paladin's and goblins are both victims, victims of a broken alignment system. You are ranting about the wrong thing here, good sir.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I believe that paladin's and goblins are both victims, victims of a broken alignment system. You are ranting about the wrong thing here, good sir.

It's not that the system is broken, it's the "You allowed yourself to be in an area where something bad or evil occured, so you FALL! HAHAHA!!! Shoulda played something else!" mentality.

Or worse, the "I'm the Paladin, and have some sort of hold over the DM, so you all have to do it MY way!" attitude.

A paladin IS supposed to be the best of the best, but there never has been a requirement to be "perfect in all things, at all time." A mistake doesn't mean a fall, and a fall doesn't mean you can't atone.

Usually when I see someone flipping out on either paladins in general, or Miko specifically, I figure one of the two above is probably the real situation.

[Paladin29]

I agree with SHO, one thing is to have a rigid moral and other fall in the ridiculous.

[Arklite]

"Deed of Paxinarrion". A truly inspiring tale, and something to offset the "Miko Factor".

I googled the name and came up with no results. Any chance there is a typo here?

Edit: Ah, nevermind. Seems someone already posted the correct name.

As to the topic being discussed, I can't really add any paladin hate since paladins are my favorite heroic archetype of all time.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Comrade Gorby: Please note that numerous posts have been pruned from this thread as they were off topic derailments. Please try to stay on topic in the future, or take it to SMBG.

[Callista]

I think every character should be carefully role-played, not just paladins; it's just more important for paladins. I wouldn't let a novice roleplayer roll up a pally, though, because that's the one class that you REALLY have to know how to RP for. Otherwise you end up with a rigid spoilsport of a character, or else you fall because you're not thinking straight, or you forget the alignment restrictions and go pillage and plunder along with the rest of the chaotic neutral party. If you don't have a good DM and you're not an experienced role-player, just don't do a paladin. There are lots of other classes that can do mounted combat and kill evil things, after all. Not only does the character have to be diplomatic, but the player, too. If your paladin has to leave the party in order for people to have fun, then you should have him leave the party. Ironically, the above goes for evil characters too.

[paladinofshojo]

in this thread we can all talk about the how much we hate those evil,vile beings known as palladins!

hooray for redclock

death to all paladins!

You do realize that you are trying to disrupt a force of nature right? The railroad plotline will always previal therefore Good shall always defeat Evil, the paladins will ALWAYS have the last laugh HA!:smallbiggrin:


DON'T MAKE ME "SMITE EVIL" THIS WHOLE THREAD!

[Eric]

A person doesn't have to be innocent for it to break the Just Cause rule in Exalted Deeds:

Well, the book of exalted deeds is a load of cack, so please ignore that.

[Underground]

Palladin... now thats a way to write a name wrong :smallbiggrin:

I cant stand Paladins, and I'm even lawful good (at least that Alignment Test from Wizard claims so)

[pjackson]

Of course, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds paladins can't kill noncombatants without falling, which we've already seen them do (in SoD)

No we have not.

[pjackson]

SO, what we see early in SoD is multiple unarmed Goblins being attacked without warning, and unarmed goblins noticably smaller than the adults being slain. So, one could reasonably say that a smaller, unarmed goblin, is a child non-combatant.

Most of them were killed after a warning was given.
Being unarmed does not mean you are a non-combatant in a world of monks and magicians - when has Redcloak used a weapon?
They may also have had weapons they had not drawn.
Human children have been known to fight, and goblins are shorter lived.
They might be child non-combatants, but there is no proof, and there is evidence to the contrary - the paladins did not fall.

[Kish]

Most of them were killed after a warning was given.
Being unarmed does not mean you are a non-combatant in a world of monks and magicians - when has Redcloak used a weapon?
They may also have had weapons they had not drawn.
Human children have been known to fight, and goblins are shorter lived.
They might be child non-combatants, but there is no proof, and there is evidence to the contrary - the paladins did not fall.
Are you familiar with the term, "Begging the question"? It's commonly misused in various ways, but what it actually means is to use a claim as evidence for itself. For example, "We don't have evidence that paladins in the OotS universe can kill noncombatants without falling, because their lack of Falling is evidence that those they killed were not noncombatants." For that matter, do you think--in a universe where paladins would Fall for killing noncombatants--they would suddenly not Fall for killing a five-year-old (human, for the sake of the example) who happened to have a weapon?

As for the lack of proof that they were noncombatants? Well, for starters, they did not, in fact, fight at all to defend themselves. Beyond that, though, I find it extremely implausible that someone who looks at the picture of Redcloak's sister with a sword through her midsection and says "I don't think that's a noncombatant" would say the same thing if it was a human child, or if the person who had down the killing was established as evil.

[Remirach]

Most of them were killed after a warning was given.

Trailing after Kish's response, I'd just like to add that Redcloak's mother was also a little bit too aged and infirm to appreciate the "warning" that "DIE, GOBLINS!" constituted before she had the general indecency to succumb to the sword through her midsection.

[TriniKrusader]

I'm a fan of all classes but I'm a pally at heart. I have to semi-agree with Mordokai though: I hope this sentiment is being expressed because the OP has sincere reasons, and not because he wants to join the growing "OMG I'm a rebel I'm so cool and unique" movement. I won't make any assumptions though.

Having said that, there's another issue here that isn't mentioned in the name of the thread: now that the newer versions of D&D and "updated" fantasy fiction have shown that kobolds, orcs, goblins, gnolls etc actually do have families and homes, how do we deal with that?

I'm a Neverwinter Nights player and I can say the most fun I ever had with a character was a CE half-orc ranger I made, who had humans, elves, half-elves and dwarves on his favoured enemy list. He considered himself a 'friend of the humanoids' and any time the module allowed him to let one go free, he would. Going back to his roots I guess. :smallcool:

To throw some oil on the proverbial fire, there's a scene in Shadows of Undrentide, the first expansion of Neverwinter Nights, that's very relevant here (disclaimer- this is paraphrased)

<PC steps out of his/her room>
Xanos, an egotistical half-orcish sorcerer: Aha! You are here. Have you heard how Mischa (a "Lawful Stupid - INT of 8 - paladin) fared on her last trial.

Mischa: I have had enough of your jibes Xanos and then something along the lines of "that wasn't a fair test of my abilities".

Xanos: On the contrary! Drogan asks to rescue the goblin child, I rescue the goblin child.

Mischa: But a goblin is an evil creature, child or no! How could he expect me to lend it aid?

If the PC is a paladin, Mischa will be dumbfounded if he or she takes Xanos'/Master Drogan's side. If the character's WIS score is high enough, and regardless of its class, you get the option:

‘Hmmm, maybe he was trying to teach you that Paladins are both righteous and merciful.’

If you say this, Mischa feels a little ashamed and replies: ‘Perhaps you're right, <PC name>. No wonder, Master Drogan holds you in such high regard.’

[lord of kobolds]

personally, i do have a good reason to hate pallies. for one of m tournament characters they killed my wife and children, and i don't mean backstory. later, i slaughtered them all:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

I see a lot of moaning whenever I bring up Exalted Deeds. It may have flaws, but it is also one of the few supplements that puts a high premium on mercy, redemption, compassion, etc, for evil humanoids as well as player races.

there is a bit of a double standard built into the game, and it seems paladins can do almost anything they want when on adventure, but are more limited in town.

[Eric]

I see a lot of moaning whenever I bring up Exalted Deeds. It may have flaws, but it is also one of the few supplements that puts a high premium on mercy, redemption, compassion, etc, for evil humanoids as well as player races.

there is a bit of a double standard built into the game, and it seems paladins can do almost anything they want when on adventure, but are more limited in town.

a) the moaning is because Exalted Deeds et al are a very BAD way to play a game. This is meant to be a game, remember.

b) you don't have days of talk-time with the legion people, you have just yourselves as the PC group and one DM playing everyone else. The DM doesn't have time to give you all the information needed to make real life decisions. So you MUST have a very limited pool of information to work with. So you have to allow the PC's to do things that may be bad if they knew more

c) A Swords and Sorcery game would be pretty much NOT S&S if the people playing had to talk as much as we get to do in Real Life (tm). It would be silly IN A GAME to wonder "is that Dragon just misunderstood? is it endangered? if we remove this carnivore, what will happen to the ecosystem?..." Heck, we don't HAVE an ecosystem. There are always enough dangerous creatures to make the PC's sweat, even though they'd have to spend all their time eating each other if they existed in a real world.

The double standard for PCs is because this is meant to be a game where the PCs are the heroes. Just like in the pulp movies. You never see Conan trying to find out if the guards are there because they enjoy evil or just to feed their children: he just kills the guards that get in his way. And we want to play heroes, not Social Workers. Hence the lack of "real life" moral shades.

And that can make people play characters like Miko when they could be just as heroic (in the pulp way) playing O'Chul and still have a moral code that is real life (ish).

[hamishspence]

i think thats the point: the No Shade of Grey is Miko, and she is not exactly popular here. By contrast O-chul, who is willing to see the MitD as misguided, is much more liked.

It doesn't mean exalted is the only way to play, but it does mean it has some insights into what Good means, not simply Smite Everything Evil, never do Evil acts, but a more nuanced form of Good.

Hopefully it will be better realised later on. some characters who were Good in 3rd ed are Unaligned in 4th ed (Bruenor Battlehammer), maybe because they are a shade more ruthles than would be expected. Bruenor suggests torturing orc prisoners in Crystal Shard: whcih would be an Evil act by Exalted and Fiendish Codex 2 rules.

[hamishspence]

Roy is about half way between S&S and Exalted. He seems willing to Coup de grace opponents who are sleeping (DcF) but in the later written OtOoPCs he objects loudly to the idea of killing orcs simply because they are Chaotic evil. "I refuse to kill creatures simply because its slightly more convenient than talking to them" In the same way, Hinjo tries to talk Miko down, despite the fact that she has just slain his uncle (capital crime)

Offering surrender does not always WORK (celestials offered Xykon redemption, got turned into flying zombies) but that shows that its the option that extremely good beings would try.

[Paladin29]

Only one thing, D&D is a game, yes, but RPG means ROLEPLAYING GAME, that means that players and DM must make an effort to roleplay PCs and NPCs to create a good story and enviroment to enjoy the experience the most they can. If a player wants to roleplay a paladin, he does with all of the consequences, a paladin is not a simple LG, because his powers and class depends of his really rigid moral code, for that a paladin never do an evil act, and only acts in a chaotic way if it´ll be for the greater good.

[hamishspence]

and even then is extremely leery of certain chaotic, non-evil acts. Problem is a lot of authors make them killers of evil creatures, even the old and infants. Grand History of the realms had werecrocodile families fleeing the devastation of their city by the paladins of Osiris (with tacit approval of the clergy of Horus-Re).

Road of the Patriarch had Gareth Dragonsbane showing rather more tolerance than his fellow heroes, and having a discussion with Entreri on the merits, or lack of, of heroic quests + noble bloodline as a claim to the throne. For once, the paladin is the one guy resisting clamour of his advisors to condemn a evil aligned guy.

[Eric]

Only one thing, D&D is a game, yes, but RPG means ROLEPLAYING GAME, that means that players and DM must make an effort to roleplay PCs and NPCs to create a good story and enviroment to enjoy the experience the most they can.

True. But you can't hog the DM's time asking about how bad or good every little creature is, so you have to, to make the game playable, make HUGE assumptions. E.g. Goblins = Evil so killing any and all goblins = Good. Except where on occasion the DM will make a situation where it's fairly obvious that this isn't just sword-fodder and you find out not *all* goblins are evil. But if you slow the game down by trying to ascertain if ANY goblin is good, the DM will hurry things on by making them attack you and waste your best shinies.

A lot of the same thing happens in movies etc. You always get the baddie as just completely 100% bad. There's never any wondering about who's the baddie and what to do to them. And any available to turn are pretty heavily signposted.

You just don't have time.

Same with the BoED: they are more moral but getting the information to mke sure you act accordingly means you're slowing the game down with jaw-jaw.

Nice to do on occasion, but boring if you do it each and every encounter.

[hamishspence]

which is why exalted games aren't Slaughter monsters for loot but "Thwart the terribly evil villain" And even Luke was leery on just trying to kill Vader, or the emperor, lest he become Dark himself. It does not forbid you from using violence, but it does suggest it should have just cause.

Slaughter your way through horde of Evil troopers is not the only way: surrenders are better, if possible. RotJ, rebels managed to catch a big group of soldiers, rather than just killing them. Luke begins encounter with Jabba by trying a peaceful resolution. And so on. The Exalted way does not work every time, but does not mean it is not worth trying.

[Kish]

Depending on portrayal, Conan ranges from good to Belkarishly Chaotic Evil. Beyond that...*shrug* With no offense intended, Eric, I think it's probably a good thing you and I are never likely to be in a position to play D&D or any other roleplaying game together. It sounds like each of our playstyles would bore the other to tears; I know from experience how much I loathe hack-and-slash gaming.

[hamishspence]

I tended to put him as Chaotic neutral mostly: some evil moments, some mildly good. Howard version is more interesting to read than Jordan version, and I have not read many of the Conan comics, mostly books.

[hamishspence]

When characters have a dark streak, they should generally be troubled by what they have to do, often. Jon Shannow from the David Gemmell books has that vibe: he doesn't like killing, even in defence of others, but sees it as necessary. And in book three he tries to become non-violent, and it works for a while, until bad guys come and burn down the church he is preacher of.

Or Owen Deathstalker in Simon R Green's Deathstalker series: spends most of his life haunted by the youngster he killed, even though she was a crazed drug addict trying to kill him.

[Paladin29]

I agree with you (Eric), of course, by default the orcs, goblins, etc.. that the PCs encounter are evil, and there is no problem to kill them to rescue the princess, save the kids of the village, etc.. however if there is a paladin in the game, the DM should create situations when the moral code of the paldin is important to the scene... in the orc´s lair they find orc children after they kill their parents (evil parents who kidnap human farmers to make sacrifices to their god)... perhaps some people of the group will leave them alone (probably they´ll die of starvation) or wants to kill them (one future evil orc less)., but the paladin probably give them food and try to find another orc site.