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Kazuel
2008-04-12, 06:01 PM
I've been looking over them the past few days and they seem pretty nifty, but I can't really discern how well they stack up (against normal non-optomized PCs) and what role they're intended to fill. Comments?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-12, 06:02 PM
Like factotums, binders are jacks. For me, they've been PWN faces and excellent backups and leaders. With Aym's cloak of flames, my level 1 binder is always the first to charge in and can hold his own very well. He'll get even better as he levels.

dman11235
2008-04-12, 06:05 PM
They can fill pretty much any roll you want, and can change that roll every day if need be. I haven't really looked thoroughly at them, so I can't say much, but I can say that they are generally regarded as one of the most balanced classes of 3.5, and one of the most well designed.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-12, 06:10 PM
They balance well against the standard game setup, they get to choose their role day-to-day and they have some funky fluff. If you want a good idea of how binders feel search for the Horror Campaign (Army of Commoners) by SilverClawShift or just PM SilverClawShift the resident Binder Brainiac.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-12, 06:14 PM
Gods, no. While Silver's tale probably ranks on the top 3 of the best campaigns ever, a PC binder is miles away from those.

But, if you want to know, on a more or less ideal group (MY ideal group, at least), the binder does pretty well on the bard's job, while the Factotum does skillmonkey, the ToBBer's play the meatshield, a warlock with a few homebrews is the arcanist, and a Favored soul is the cleric.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-12, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=Azerian Kelimon;4183641]Gods, no. While Silver's tale probably ranks on the top 3 of the best campaigns ever, a PC binder is miles away from those.[QUOTE]

How it feels, fluff wise, not how it plays. Beings from beyound the stars and all that.

The Extinguisher
2008-04-12, 06:18 PM
Binders are wonderful if your party already is fairly full and don't need a specific niche.

Mind you, they're wonderful any other time, but they are damn confusing for a novice DM, so you may want to avoid them.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-12, 06:44 PM
Binders are wonderful if your party already is fairly full and don't need a specific niche.

Mind you, they're wonderful any other time, but they are damn confusing for a novice DM, so you may want to avoid them.

QFT.

I'm a level 16 binder, started at level 1, and I'm enjoying it more than any other character I've played - but I've done hours of research and brainstorming, trying to make it good. Now it is good, but not for novices, as he says.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-12, 06:47 PM
Then again, once you get Halphax, you pretty much have I Won the game. And with good vestige pick, you'll always be able to do just what was needed. And if all else fails, Diplocheese.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-12, 06:48 PM
How do you win the game with Halphax? Am I missing something?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-12, 06:51 PM
Imprison. As borkened as Mordenkainen's disjunction, if properly boosted.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-12, 07:04 PM
How do you use it other than knocking them out of a fight? Save or lose aren't exactly the most creative spells ever...

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-12, 07:05 PM
Binder class is decent, but not 'really' good like factotum or beguiler, nor is it underpowered as samurai and soulknife. It has a very unique (and somewhat vast) arsenal of tricks up his sleeve that makes it a valuable ally if played correctly.

The trouble with the class is that it is truly a jack of all trades and master of none, in that it can mimic quite a large number of abilities it will never be able to 'overshadow' a specialised one at doing that. This means it will have to rely on its versatility to hold its own and it actually works fine around up to 5th or 6th level. Speaking from experience, I found that around that level being able to bind only 1 vestige at a time was simply not good enough.

Vestiges are designed to complement each other and with right combinations (eg. Andras + Eligor + Savnok for charging goodness) they can be very formidable indeed. This means if you can't bind more than 1 vestige at a time (which is, until 8th level) it is very hard to 'optimise' your setting and be what you're designed to be good at: to be versatile.

Seriously, being stuck with one vestige for 24 hours is not crying out 'Ooo I am adaptive and versatile!' is it?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-12, 07:08 PM
Expel vestige. There. Bind something else, or get another feat if you required another one.

Ain't I great?

SadisticFishing
2008-04-12, 07:10 PM
Vestige Phylactery and Expel Vestige are necessary, for versatility by the way.

And a properly build Binder can do a LOT. Ipos is very good for melee damage, with Chucoplocs. Paimon, Balam, and Geryon make for AMAZING mook clearing. Eligor, Andras, and Chucoplocs with a Lance is just mean. Chucoplocs + Focalor gives -4 to saves to anyone within 5 feet, which is a lot, especially when paired with Halphax or Haures or any of the other save or lose vestiges.

Zceryll, by the way, is my absolute favorite. She's from a web enhancement though.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-12, 07:11 PM
I'd take Tevler as one of my vestiges anyday. 1up in tabletop? Yeppie, gimme! Plus, bring reminiscense of Dustlands, Silver's campaign setting.