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Danin
2008-04-12, 08:55 PM
Does anyone know if there is a dual progression PRC for Divine casters? Notably a Druid and a Cleric? I checked a number of books and couldn't find one which doesn't sound right.

TroyXavier
2008-04-12, 09:02 PM
not that I'm familiar with.

JaxGaret
2008-04-12, 09:05 PM
There is none, but you could talk to your DM about using the Ultimate Magus for it. Simply switch the requirements to 1st level spells + 2nd level spells divine casting, and Knowledge (Religion) 4 + Knowledge (Nature) 4.

Danin
2008-04-12, 09:12 PM
Ya know, for some reason this just seems silly to me. There is a Wizard / Cleric, Wizard / Shadowcaster, Wizard / Binder, Wizard / Sorcerer, Wizard / Warlock, Wizard / Druid, Wizard / Psion, Wizard / Fighter and pretty much any other combination you could think of. My concern for using Ultimate Magus as a base for a dual progression PrC would be the lack of a decent BAB, low HD and inappropriate class abilities. Ooh well, looks like its time for a home brew. I'm sure I can come up with something.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-13, 12:22 AM
Will you post it when you're done? :smallbiggrin:

Dode
2008-04-13, 12:26 AM
poor clerics and druids, so underpowered.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-13, 12:51 AM
Haha, I tried this once.

3/4 bab, good will/fort, 2+int, d8... Progresses Wild Shape, Animal Companion, and Turn Undead, and Cleric and Druid spellcasting.

Giving nothing else, it seemed completely overpowered. So I scratched the idea entirely.

tyckspoon
2008-04-13, 01:07 AM
Progresses Wild Shape, Animal Companion, and Turn Undead, and Cleric and Druid spellcasting.


We'll call this the Planar Shepherd error. I think I would go with advancing Wild Shape, Turning, and spellcasting. Let the class turn the base Turn and Wildshape use pools into one stock, so that Turnings could be used to activate Wildshape and Wild feats and Wildshapes could activate Divine feats. Maybe offer a list of bonus Divine/Wild feats (about.. three through a ten-level progression?) to make sure the character has something to use that unified pool with. Extra uses from temporary buffs and items wouldn't count toward the combined pool, just the base amounts.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-13, 01:42 AM
I dunno, a level 3 animal companion is pretty useless >_< and there's very little to give it up with.

Oh and that is most definitely NOT the Planar Shepherd error. The Planar Shepherd error involves Planes. >_<

Squash Monster
2008-04-13, 01:48 AM
Once I saw a homebrewed generic gestalt PRC. Requirements: 3 levels each in two base classes (not prestige). Class features: 10 level PRC that has all the class features of using those two classes in gestalt.

They ran it by character optimization and it was deemed entirely acceptable. This kind of thing is really only scary with classes that have exponential power curves (like casters) and those are all hurt terribly by having to take three levels of something else.

The whole thing breaks if you allow prestige classes to be gestalted, however. Make sure you obey that rule.


If that's not your cup of tea, well... do you mind losing wild shape? If not... Archivist.

Animefunkmaster
2008-04-13, 01:59 AM
I dunno, a level 3 animal companion is pretty useless >_< and there's very little to give it up with.

And Familiars are there for flavor, not really a use. If I was swayed (and I say if because I see no reason even fluff wise to be a cleric/druid when a cleric with a nature domain or a druid could work the same theme) I would progress Druid casting only and Cleric Casting only. Turning, Animal Companions, Wild Shape can are unnecessary if you are looking at dual casting. Take the Mystic Theurge or the Cerebremancer as a base.

or be a Druid Rainbow Servant if you are really desperate.

I am in agreement that the two strongest classes in the game do not need a homebrewed PrC so they can played together.

Squash Monster
2008-04-13, 02:07 AM
And Familiars are there for flavor, not really a use. If I was swayed (and I say if because I see no reason even fluff wise to be a cleric/druid when a cleric with a nature domain or a druid could work the same theme) I would progress Druid casting only and Cleric Casting only. Turning, Animal Companions, Wild Shape can are unnecessary if you are looking at dual casting. Take the Mystic Theurge or the Cerebremancer as a base.

or be a Druid Rainbow Servant if you are really desperate.

I am in agreement that the two strongest classes in the game do not need a homebrewed PrC so they can played together.So you're proposing a class that progresses casting only, presumably with casting requirements in both required classes (thus making it a few levels behind in each), with no other class features?

Archivist completely destroys that. Casting from any divine list plus a really cool class feature.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-13, 02:20 AM
Archivist is cool without the class feature. I would totally trade it for more spells per day.

I also still want to play a gestalt Archivist/Wizard.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 02:37 AM
And Familiars are there for flavor, not really a use. If I was swayed (and I say if because I see no reason even fluff wise to be a cleric/druid when a cleric with a nature domain or a druid could work the same theme) I would progress Druid casting only and Cleric Casting only. Turning, Animal Companions, Wild Shape can are unnecessary if you are looking at dual casting. Take the Mystic Theurge or the Cerebremancer as a base.

or be a Druid Rainbow Servant if you are really desperate.

I am in agreement that the two strongest classes in the game do not need a homebrewed PrC so they can played together.

1) Familiars are godly amazing, don't even get me started.

2) The Planar Shepard mistake is to provide all Druid abilities, oh and then some additional awesomeness. This cannot be replicated in any dual progression casting PrC, because you are already down 3 levels anyway. Thus giving a reason to not take the PrC, IE getting spells sooner.

3) Look at Arcane Heirophant, the Wizard/Druid PrC. Find any way at all to make it morepowerful then a well built Wizard or Druid 20. You can't.

4) Progressing turning doesn't actually matter at all. You already have your turn attempts, and even if the class progresses it, you still are 3 levels behind a comparable cleric, who can't turn anything unless he specialized in it anyway.

5) Dual progressions that require 3 levels in another class are inherently inferior. A Cleric Druid Gestalt that starts at level 7 isn't broken and never will be.

Aquillion
2008-04-13, 03:13 AM
Once I saw a homebrewed generic gestalt PRC. Requirements: 3 levels each in two base classes (not prestige). Class features: 10 level PRC that has all the class features of using those two classes in gestalt.

They ran it by character optimization and it was deemed entirely acceptable. This kind of thing is really only scary with classes that have exponential power curves (like casters) and those are all hurt terribly by having to take three levels of something else.I dunno... I think PRC-gestalting with Rogue would be too overpowering for most full melee classes, especially core ones (who generally don't lose that much for giving up three levels.) 7d6 sneak attack is worth one point of BAB and a tiny sliver of HD, I think... and that's in addition to a huge amount of skill-monkey utility, decently usable low-level UMD, two rogue special abilities, trap sense +4, Evasion / Uncanny Dodge / Improved Uncanny Dodge, and more.

It seems to totally dominate just about every other pure, non-spellcasting, non-TOB melee class. Granted, those aren't exactly overpowering, but the sheer amount they get for so little by PRC-gestalting with rogue is enough to give pause.

There are, for the better or worse, a lot of classes out there that don't get much special in their last three levels... and even if they aren't the most powerful classes out there, they're not generally unplayably underpowered, either. This PRC would be an absolutely massive boost to all of them.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 03:35 AM
I dunno... I think PRC-gestalting with Rogue would be too overpowering for most full melee classes, especially core ones (who generally don't lose that much for giving up three levels.) 7d6 sneak attack is worth one point of BAB and a tiny sliver of HD, I think... and that's in addition to a huge amount of skill-monkey utility, decently usable low-level UMD, two rogue special abilities, trap sense +4, Evasion / Uncanny Dodge / Improved Uncanny Dodge, and more.

It seems to totally dominate just about every other pure, non-spellcasting, non-TOB melee class. Granted, those aren't exactly overpowering, but the sheer amount they get for so little by PRC-gestalting with rogue is enough to give pause.

There are, for the better or worse, a lot of classes out there that don't get much special in their last three levels... and even if they aren't the most powerful classes out there, they're not generally unplayably underpowered, either. This PRC would be an absolutely massive boost to all of them.

It would be a massive boost that they need. Since the number of non-spellcasting, non-ToB pure melee classes that anyone actually takes to ten in a normal game is one (It's Fighter, and I'm the one doing it, and only because I can splatbookify my feats in ways that make sane people cry) I'd say that's not so horrible.

Aquillion
2008-04-13, 07:36 AM
It would be a massive boost that they need. Since the number of non-spellcasting, non-ToB pure melee classes that anyone actually takes to ten in a normal game is one (It's Fighter, and I'm the one doing it, and only because I can splatbookify my feats in ways that make sane people cry) I'd say that's not so horrible.But Fighter is pretty broken, too, especially if you're only intended to use it in small dips to gain extra feats. Now you can, basically, take three levels of fighter to get seven feats, as long as there's at least 13 levels of another base class somewhere in your build.

It helps some skill-monkey base classes a great deal, too, and just about any class that is good for a dip. Combining different skill monkey builds would be even worse... Rogue/Factotum, say? You'd be able to keep everything maxed easily, and Factotum gets its best ability at 8th level anyway. (In fact, just about anything + Factotum is going to be very easily broken with this.) And, of course, this will let you stack Iaijutsu Focus and Sneak Attack damage...

UserClone
2008-04-13, 07:45 AM
...but only if Iaijutsu focus exists in your DMs campaign.

Talya
2008-04-13, 08:05 AM
poor clerics and druids, so underpowered.

While the sarcasm is noted, using a dual progression PrC to combine cleric and druid would lower their power level down quite a bit...just like other "Theurge" classes tend to do.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-13, 08:14 AM
But Fighter is pretty broken, too,

Hahaha! The second-weakest class in the PHB, broken? That's funny!

What you're actually doing here is making gestalt builds.

Danin
2008-04-13, 08:27 AM
The way I figure, with a 10 level PRC that does not allow any advancement of prestige class based casting would allow for a maximum caster level of 15th for both Cleric and Druid (Cleric 5 / Druid 5 / X 10). Unless I'm mistaken, that would restrict them to 8th level casting, 5 caster levels behind (1 for each if you take practiced spell caster twice) and allow for 1, maybe 2 8th level spells per day. Even if wild shape, animal companion and turning were progressed to some degree, I don't think the loss of casting would be generally worth it. In order to have an effective animal companion and remain an offensive spell caster you would need practiced spell caster twice and natural bond, purchased with feats that the two classes don't really have.

As I figure it right now, the class should have good fort and will, 3/4 BAB, progress both spell casting abilities, progress 3 uses of wild shape / day, progress the animal companion and have levels stack for turn undead. It would also allow wild shaping into large creatures somewhere around the 7th level.

My two main concerns now are how to keep the entry requirements open enough that a Favored soul, Spirit Shaman and Paladin could get in but not allow PrC casting advancement and to tweek the power level a bit to make sure it stays on par with most other thurge classes.

Squash Monster
2008-04-13, 10:55 AM
Danin - actually, the best build would probably be Druid 3 / Cleric 3 / Mixer 10 / Druid 4. Yields 9th level Druid spells (barely and late) and 7th level Cleric spells.

But yes. People under-estimate the loss of spell levels. Except for 20th level, that build is struggling to keep up with actual Druids and actual Clerics.

Even if you allowed the mixer prestige to be a fully powered gestalt, you're going to be one or two spell levels behind in both classes at all times. Take level 10 for example. As a 10th level Druid, would you trade your last three levels of Wild Shape, and your ability to cast Animal Growth, away for the ability to cast Divine Power?