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Drunedale
2008-04-13, 08:54 AM
I was running a campaign with a few of my friends when something happened to us that was so bad I had to pass it on. This was my first time really DMing with this group so I didn't think of the ramifications of having a group consisting of an egotistical Swordsage, a gnome wizard addicted to hallucinogens, a sexually frustraited Half Ork, and a Cleric with little no no moral compass.

In this particular campaign there was one monster that I thought would give them a hard time, and it did would have killed them except for a lucky sanctuary. This monster has improoved grab, dc 14 paralization affect, 10 tentacles, flyby attack and perfect manuverability. These adventurers found out that assuming that no one got paralized they could take it down easily due to low hitpoints. Not so bad, however, when they found the one way gate to this monsters plane and summoned two of them by accident again, they almost died. However, instead of leaving the door alone, they decide to prepair for combat so that they have initiative and then just keep summoning these guys one at a time. They killed 35 of these guys before they got tired of it! I was sitting there watching as these four players rolled their d20's chanting, "free exp" over and over as they killed monster after monster. Apparently making a dungeon with an infinite number of monsters with low hp is a bad idea. They got a level out of these monsters alone! So yeah, saddest moment in my carreer as a Role Player.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-13, 09:02 AM
First time full challenge. Second time they knew what they were facing and how to survive, reduced CR, reduced xp. The single man chokepoint with full prep time and an easy retreat if they get out of thier depth.... :smallconfused: No challenge= No xp.

Ralfarius
2008-04-13, 09:02 AM
I think it would have been appropriate to either have the gate break from overuse after the first few, or have the creatures catch on to what's happening and leap through a dozen at a time to totally overwhelm the over-confident group.

But, hey! It was your first time. This was an important learning experience.

Also: mostlyharmful raises an interesting point, there is a 'modifying encounter DC' guideline in the DMG. It's a little sparse, but you can extrapolate that if the party is at essentially no risk, they're not really learning anything from the encounter, and therefore don't stand to gain any EXP. That's why goblins stop giving any after a certain level, after all.

bosssmiley
2008-04-13, 09:36 AM
This monster has improved grab, dc 14 paralyzation affect, 10 tentacles, flyby attack and perfect manoeuvrability. These adventurers found out that assuming that no one got paralysed they could take it down easily due to low hit points.

You let them spawn camp and farm thrust vectoring flumphs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flumph) all evening? Well, if it kept the players happy... :smallsigh:

Now next week you redeem yourself by having the Grells ("Lords of Madness") and their swarms of pet Gricks erupt from the gate and start going 'War of the Worlds' on the local population. Good GMs know you only drop the pressure on the PCs so that they feel it even more when you ramp it up again.

"You burned through all the easy (sub-CR) challenges last week. This week you get all the hard ones you racked up." :smallamused:

Genome
2008-04-13, 09:44 AM
As a friend put it: after 35 Grells, "That's when the tapdancing Mindflayers start to come out."

Brickwall
2008-04-13, 09:55 AM
Actually, after the first two, they resolved the encounter. They should have gotten no XP for the rest of them. That's how I'd run it, at least. And it makes plenty of sense, too. Why would their characters want to fight more of them? Bad roleplaying, no XP for the encounter.

Mine is an evil laugh.

On a more on-topic note, our DM in my last game session (it was a one-shot) needed to take a break to re-plan because we were acting smarter than he thought we would. After that, though, we sort of stopped the "being smart" thing. :smallfrown:

sikyon
2008-04-13, 10:22 AM
Send out the queen or something.

Also, Tentacles + paralyzation + DM crying brought something else to mind.

Gorbash Kazdar
2008-04-13, 11:08 AM
On a more on-topic note, our DM in my last game session (it was a one-shot) needed to take a break to re-plan because we were acting smarter than he thought we would.
A similar thing happened to me once. In an Eberron campaign, the party and one of the BBEGs met in a showdown after the BBEG had acquired a MacGuffin that had allowed him to turn a tower into a flying fortress (it did other nasty things too). Cue typical villian monologue before the fight. The punctuation, though, turned out to be the artificer using his Ranged Disarm ability to shoot the MacGuffin out of the BBEG's hand. I had completely forgotten he could do that, and given the already established method the MacGuffin functioned, I suddenly had what should have been a straight up fight turn into a combat-enhanced hot-potato scramble as the tower plummeted from the sky. I ended up calling the session an hour early than normal at that point because I was completely unprepared for that eventuality.

RTGoodman
2008-04-13, 11:08 AM
Actually, after the first two, they resolved the encounter. They should have gotten no XP for the rest of them. That's how I'd run it, at least.

Yep, I'd do the same.

(From your description, I take it this was in the bottom of the moathouse in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and they were fighting Grells? Based solely on that, I'd say there are probably bigger things to worry about than the Grell-gate. I mean, if they spent all their time "racking up kills," who's to say nothing bad happened in Hommlet or wherever the PCs are coming from?)

FlyMolo
2008-04-13, 11:31 AM
I would actually award the PCs experience for this. They're being clever, and grells are evil, so they need to be killed. The solution is to be clever right back.

A grell philosopher (They have them) sends through a minor image of himself, messing with the PCs. Or fireball. Or something metamagic'd. Maze+transdimensional dimension lock. Something. Or you simply throw every 5th grell at them, but with extra levels. Barbarian, etc. Dervish might be nice, and Multi-attack is a must. Whenever my players get uppity, I replace all the fluff feats with useful ones. Combat expertise for Alertness, etc.

PsyWar levels and some War Mind, wielding a spiked chain. AT THE SAME TIME, throw in one dual-wielding greater lightning lances. That'll show your players to risk death. :smalltongue:

timbuck_hunter
2008-04-13, 02:27 PM
PsyWar levels and some War Mind, wielding a spiked chain. AT THE SAME TIME, throw in one dual-wielding greater lightning lances. That'll show your players to risk death. :smalltongue:


As for this idea, our entire party was made up of characters who fight best when only dealing with one opponent at a time. Fighting this monster we would probably have killed it and taken all of its items.

Grommen
2008-04-13, 04:28 PM
About the 3rd or 4th one would have had about 5 more hit dice, full hit points, greater improved initiative, a natural 20 roll on initiative and gotten "accidentally" summoned behind the party. :)

No good dead should ever go unpunished.

Remember if they do it to the DM's pets. One of the pets is learning :smallbiggrin:

Make sure to ambush the snot out of them latter on in the game.

holywhippet
2008-04-13, 04:40 PM
When they left the area your should have declared that the smell of the monster's blood attracted their natural predator - something a lot bigger and nastier.

Carrion crawlers being attracted by the fresh meat would be a nice option.

Newtkeeper
2008-04-13, 05:41 PM
I find the best way of making people stop doing something is to cut off the reward. As a DM, I would have said either "Okay, since it clearly isn't challenging, no XP", or else, "OK, folks. This is *way* out of character. XP penalty. Hey, look. It just happens to match the XP you gained fighting him. Shall we find out if the penalty increases next time?"

Of course, this is one way. Another way is to say "This really isn't very fun for me. Would you mind being a bit more in character? I really didn't sign up to GM so I could preside over a WoW grind, and it's kind of boring." Most people don't actually like being annoying. Those that do generally aren't worth your time.

purepolarpanzer
2008-04-13, 10:56 PM
I find the best way of making people stop doing something is to cut off the reward. As a DM, I would have said either "Okay, since it clearly isn't challenging, no XP", or else, "OK, folks. This is *way* out of character. XP penalty. Hey, look. It just happens to match the XP you gained fighting him. Shall we find out if the penalty increases next time?"

Of course, this is one way. Another way is to say "This really isn't very fun for me. Would you mind being a bit more in character? I really didn't sign up to GM so I could preside over a WoW grind, and it's kind of boring." Most people don't actually like being annoying. Those that do generally aren't worth your time.

IMHO, I wouldn't do this. I hate to do things like this OOC, and would rather either a. stop giving them free xp, or b. make them earn it against something bigger and nastier.

Ninjalitude
2008-04-13, 11:02 PM
I would have had 4 of these things come out at once, and make the players cry as each of them has to make 40 DC 14 fortitude saves a round.

Tallis
2008-04-14, 02:41 AM
I don't think punishing the players is the answer, but realistic consequences is a must. There should have been diminishing returns in xp since the players aren't learning anything new using the same tactics against the same monster over and over again. Some of the creatures they summoned could have been advanced, or have character levels. Maybe they can see through the gate from their side and they know what's going on, giving them time to prepare for battle. Maybe sometimes the gate summons more than one at a time. Maybe something else comes through the gate sometimes. The sounds of battle would probably have attracted the attention of something else in the area which would have a bonus to surprise the group since their attention was focused on the gate.

The damage is done now, but presumably these summoned creatures were not carrying treasure, so the party has leveled with out the normal WBL. That will make things a bit more challenging for them. Next time just take a minute to think about what happens in the world around them when they do something like that and let them deal with the consequences of their actions. Dealing with the unexpected actions of players is probably the hardest thing about DMing, but it can lead to lots of interesting things.

Tehnar
2008-04-14, 02:57 AM
I take it this is the grell summoned from the adventure "Return to the temple of elemental evil".

Actually what it says that when one player touches the stone wall tentacles immediatly attacks that player (ie the grell gets the suprise round), then normal initiative is rolled. That means under no circumstance should the party always win initiative over the grell.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-14, 03:00 AM
I take it this is the grell summoned from the adventure "Return to the temple of elemental evil".

Actually what it says that when one player touches the stone wall tentacles immediatly attacks that player (ie the grell gets the suprise round), then normal initiative is rolled. That means under no circumstance should the party always win initiative over the grell.No, but if the party is expecting it there's not a surprise round. And when a party has 4-6 members, one of them is going to roll higher than the grell.

Narmoth
2008-04-14, 03:35 AM
Class levels.
You could give them some levels as barbarians, and enjoy the looks of frustration on their face when the monster went into rage.

I use to make surprise encounters that way:
I'll send ordinary gnolls on a mid-level party. Easy kill, and the party get's bold. Then suddenly they discover that some of the gnolls don't die, and instead deliver insane amounts of damage.
The look on their faces are priceless.

Ward.
2008-04-14, 04:52 AM
Well you can't really blame the players, it was an expected thing to do and they obviously enjoyed it, which is the point of the game.

On the other hand your going to have to create some sort of holy order that hires them to go hunt huge grell/ any random evil of your choice war parties that have come through an over stressed gate in some dungeon....

Talic
2008-04-14, 05:28 AM
Nothing should make a DM cry.

It should make you learn.

Your players are resourceful. They know how to locate predictable patterns, and use them to their advantage.

So make patterns unpredictable.

Make summoning gates shift locations. Make them summon different things.

Above all, don't be predictable. Keep them guessing, and they won't take advantage nearly so often. Not to mention, it builds tension SO much better.

seedjar
2008-04-14, 08:31 AM
I think the important part is that you now recognize this is a problem; DMing is a learning experience. However you decide to deal with this type of problem next time, you should probably be able to find an appropriate solution. Otherwise... plan, plan, plan. When I'm writing stuff for my games, before going in-depth on how I assume the game will proceed, I try to briefly explore every broad possibility - just in case I get caught with my pants down. Camping out for XP isn't one that happens in my game, since I just hand out levels when it seems about right. (Not necessarily the best policy but it's easier to track and prevents the PCs from competing over things that are only tangible OOC.) There are several nice, general solutions to the camping problem that the others have already offered - pick one and make it the blanket rule for your game.
~Joe

Drunedale
2008-04-14, 08:43 AM
I take it this is the grell summoned from the adventure "Return to the temple of elemental evil".

Actually what it says that when one player touches the stone wall tentacles immediatly attacks that player (ie the grell gets the suprise round), then normal initiative is rolled. That means under no circumstance should the party always win initiative over the grell.


That is the case, but they sent in a Wizard with Alter Self cast which gave him a really high AC, in a ddition to his other buffs. The grell's couldn't hit him unless they rolled a crit.

Thanks for the helpful input. I'll have to figure something special out for them next time we meet.

Danzaver
2008-04-14, 10:05 AM
Ah, good old Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil... Such a straightforward adventure, but such a potential to play it so many different ways.

I am familiar with the archway and portal in question, and every time I have run it I have half expected people to do exactly what you just described.

Let me share with you the secret of DMing.

You are not bound by the text in the adventure.

OK, so a Grell came out the first time. Maybe next time a bigger Grell will come out. Maybe something /worse/. Maybe the third Grell saw what jsut happened and will lurk just behind the wall until the party thinks that there are no more about to come out and then will attack. Maybe it will stay in its realm reaching through the portal and dragging them through the portal. Maybe they have angered Tharizdun by committing such blasphemy in clear view of one of his most secret shrines.

Next, let me share with you another secret of DMing.

You are not bound by the rules.

Only take advantage of this responsibly, because believe me, the power can get to your head when you do. But you are free to interpret or ignore rules as you see fit. You might say that an encounter that is not challenging is not worth any experience. There is no such thing as free experience. It's a contradiction in terms.

Just wait until they get to some of the nasty tricks later on in the adventure. Remember this and show no mercy. If they get upset, chant "free PC kills!". But, at the end of the day, just remember that it is just a game and it is just a bit of fun.

Oh, and the the name of the topic reminded me - I once had a DM who cried and tried to set fire to his house because we invaded a Lawful Good country. Just thought I'd share... That guy almost made me agree with the nutjobs who call roleplaying evil...

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-14, 11:05 AM
Hmm.. how about having the portal start to tear open, resulting in ever increasing numbers of simultaneous encounters? Perhaps this could be coupled with an increasing percentage chance/round that more just keep pouring in without having to be summoned first? The PCs should not be the only one with access to the portal mechanism, after all. :smallamused:

Chronicled
2008-04-14, 12:00 PM
Oh, and the the name of the topic reminded me - I once had a DM who cried and tried to set fire to his house because we invaded a Lawful Good country. Just thought I'd share... That guy almost made me agree with the nutjobs who call roleplaying evil...

That sounds like it might beat Lankybugger's "Worst Session Ever" tale. Would you mind sharing the whole story with us?

Danzaver
2008-04-14, 12:57 PM
That sounds like it might beat Lankybugger's "Worst Session Ever" tale. Would you mind sharing the whole story with us?

There really isn't much of a story behind it. It's as it sounds.

We invaded a lawful good country in a Birthright game, and he chucked a total mental about all the innocent people we were hurting, wailed and cried like they were his close personal friends, so we decided to leave him alone for a second. We come back and he has decided to burn all the character sheets and every trace of the campaign, setting fire to his kitchen in the process. We put the fire out, but one entire wall was horribly scorched black.

I guess it could be considered a funny story, but looking back, I feel ashamed to have ever known this guy. He had serious untreated mental illnesses, had dropped out of school, couldn't support himself, and lived vicariously through trying to force people to roleplay like two dimensional paperback-novel-characters. It was sad to behold, and believe me, we all tried to help him to help himself, but he was beyond anything but professional help and wouldn't seek it.

I could go on, I have dozens of stories about this guy's mental breakdowns and violently abandoned gaming sessions. Why the hell did I keep playing with him? Probably because I was also having a really hard time in high school at the time and I needed every bit of escapism I could get, but still.

Chronicled
2008-04-14, 02:03 PM
There really isn't much of a story behind it. It's as it sounds.

That's too bad. :smallfrown:

Avor
2008-04-14, 11:11 PM
"There is no play too cleaver the DM cannot find a way to punish you for it later."