A KotOR II Rant [SPOILERS]

[Athaniar]

First, let me say that I really, really liked the first Knights of the Old Republic. One of the best games of all time, with a compelling story and everything.

But now to the point: the sequel. Everyone praises it for it's deep story and such, and (blasphemy!) says it's even better than the original.

Deep story? What deep story? Let's see, there's this incredibly annoying old woman (Kreia) who IS REALLY THE MAIN VILLAIN! Wait, didn't she say or at least imply that, like, a HUNDRED times before. Let's look at the other villains: a morally conflicted zombie (as uninteresting as he is wounded) and a "mighty destroyer of worlds"-kinda guy who only speaks in tounges. And the other party characters: Atton Rand, who is totally uninteresting, Visas Marr, the same, Handmaiden girl/strange guy, same again, bounty hunter girl, evil wookiee, flying ball, zabrak techie with droid companion, same same same SAME.

And the "story" itself: You're this Jedi general something, and you're supposed to find some other Jedi, and OH NO! They're dead! Almost the whole game FOR NO GOOD!

The only thing that saves this game from total horribility (?) is HK-47, probably the greatest video game character ever. But then again, even the E.T. game probably would have been good if they had stuck HK-47 there.

And no, a complete ending wouldn't have saved it.

Meatbag.

[Morty]

I'm inclined to agree. While I don't think KOTOR 2 was this horrible, I was severely disappointed with the plot.

[VForVaarsuvius]

KoToR I was very great, compelling, and decently original- But I think that KoToR was just as good or better, maybe I'm less intelligent but it kept me guessing.

And I cite the 'Sure it sounds dumb when you put it like that.' phrase. xD

To each his own, though. If you enjoy KoToR I better then what the heck I'm not gonna argue over it.:smallwink:

\V/

[Mewtarthio]

The OP doesn't really say much for me. You just state that the game is stupid, then paint everything in broad strokes to make it seem like so. Granted, you're entitled to your opinion, but describing everything in the broadest of terms and calling it "cliche" is the plot review equivalent of repeating everything someone says in a sarcastic tone of voice. By way of example:

...And it's so cliched, too! I mean, look at your party: You've got some guy with trust issues because his mentor killed his son (but wait! His son's really alive, only he's evil now! Shock!), a plucky street urchin girl, her big hairy monster sidekick from a warrior race (except he's been exiled from his people... just try to guess and see if you end up reconciling him in the game), a catgirl who joins you after you show her mercy, some grumpy old guy, a proud warrior mercenary, and this chick who's really the key to saving the universe. Oh, and here's the shocker: Turns out you're really Tyler Durdan Darth Revan!

For a Star Wars game, I'd argue that KotoR II was actually very original. Sure, most of the stuff can be found in other places, but the Star Wars franchise is generally very black-and-white: Yes, you can fall to the Dark Side with good intentions, but once you get their you become a card-carrying villain. I don't think a character like Kreia, who managed to "fall" from the Dark Side and now wishes to end the Force entirely, exists anywhere else in the EU. There's a few other touches as well, like the fact that Onderon ends up better off under the "Evil" ending, that distance it from the usual archetypical Star Wars fairy tale.

[Athaniar]

I'm not complaining about cliché here. I'm complaining about the (lack of interesting) plot of the second game.

[Catch]

I'm not complaining about cliché here. I'm complaining about the (lack of interesting) plot of the second game.

I'm inclined to agree with Mewtarthio here, in that you generalized the whole of the game in a decidedly negative light, called it blasé and lame, then expected everyone to concur. Anything can come off as uninteresting and unoriginal if you describe it to be, and more importantly, if you want to see it that way.

[Athaniar]

Then please enlighten me, for that is how I felt about the game.

[Tom_Violence]

Someone saying "X is not interesting" is essentially impossible to argue with, especially if no reasons are given (as is the case here). But either way, I guess you could say it always boils down to a matter of taste - no matter what amazing reasons anyone gives someone could always turn round and say "meh, nah, I still find it dull." In which case everyone else could probably quite rightly say "well, you're pretty weird then."

I don't even think its a matter of how KotORII has been described here. I think its just people talking at cross-purposes at this stage. I must say, I do have to wonder quite specifically what appealed about the original that the sequel didn't have. For me, the original was nice, though I found the story to be more straightforward and predictable than the second. Same goes for the characters. In fact, for me the main appeals of the first game were, in order, the fact that it was at last a decent Star Wars RPG, the style of it as an RPG (i.e. the gameplay), and then lastly the plot.

[SmartAlec]

Two points in the game's favour:

- I felt the individual planets were very well-handled, with the exception of Korriban (which had problems). Each had its own little story arc, and I felt the writers of KOTOR2 made more of an effort to make each planet stronger narratively than in KOTOR1. Little 'moments' like

Atton avoiding assassination on Nar Shaddaa, marching into the Jekk Jekk'Tarr, the civil war on Onderon and the Redemption on Dantooine

all helped each planet feel complete and satisfying, despite the overall plot falling short.

- Also, the game's exploration of a Jedi rediscovering his/her talents, as well as the game's meditations on what it is to be a Jedi, were considerably more fleshed-out than the simple cutscene of retraining given in KOTOR1.

So no, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that there were good things in this game which you haven't even touched upon in your posts.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I dunno about you lot, but I tended take a power nap whenever anyone but HK spoke. Well, I take that back. Corruption dialogue was enjoyable too, at times. The problem with games that include moral choices is that there seems to be no middle road more often than not. If there IS a middle path, it is the road to blandsville and a gimphood. Would it really be THAT stressful to have a playable option outside of saint and satanist?

That said: dual wielding + force crush = win. Period. I was all about being as CE as possible to mess with my, at the time, roomate (who happens to be so LG irl that it's endearing). I hear tell that my brother has been banned from playing Mass Effect over there for the same reason. :smallbiggrin:

[SmartAlec]

The problem with games that include moral choices is that there seems to be no middle road more often than not.

Wasn't that the point the game was trying to make, concerning the Star Wars universe? That you were a Force-sensitive in the Star Wars universe, you had to either climb, fall, or fail?

"Apathy is Death."
- Kreia, among others

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Wasn't that the point the game was trying to make, concerning the Star Wars universe? That you were a Force-sensitive in the Star Wars universe, you had to either climb, fall, or fail?

"Apathy is Death."
- Kreia, among others

I'm talking balance, not apathy. Is moderation such a foriegn concept?:smalltongue:

[Oregano]

I think the point extends anyway, a balance in oneself in the Star Wars universe is practicly(sp?) impossible, especially for a force-sensitive individual.

Also keep in mind Kreia herself represented balance in the game, choosing neither good or evil and then look what happened...

[Tom_Violence]

I'm talking balance, not apathy. Is moderation such a foriegn concept?:smalltongue:

Yeah, I do agree with that. One of the reasons why I so rarely play 'evil' characters is because the options generally involve little more than foaming at the mouth and kicking the nearest old lady/orphan down a flight of stairs. Which is funny, if you're twelve. Otherwise it gets a bit tiresome.

[SmartAlec]

I'm talking balance, not apathy. Is moderation such a foriegn concept?:smalltongue:

The 'balance' you're talking about - trying to arbitrarily balance the scales - is a lot of work to get absolutely nowhere.

The Light Side IS Balance. As opposed to the Dark Side, which is Imbalance.

[Mando Knight]

Yeah, I do agree with that. One of the reasons why I so rarely play 'evil' characters is because the options generally involve little more than foaming at the mouth and kicking the nearest old lady/orphan down a flight of stairs. Which is funny, if you're twelve. Otherwise it gets a bit tiresome.

Yeah... there aren't any good villainous choices in the game, and a lot of the Light Side choices are the cheesy "Here, Mr. Poor-Guy, have some of my money!" or "But killing people is wrong! Even if they'd annihilate the galaxy at the drop of the hat!"

What I liked was the new feat choices and the de-nerfing of some of the blaster weapons (I mean, come on, in the first one dual wielding pistols was better than toting a single, massive, badass laser gun...)

[Albub]

Personally, I think they should have had more evil choices, like genocide, or maybe burning down a house full of children. Don't get me wrong, doing good can feel nice, but I get my good done IRL. When my choices for morally dubious routes are as lame as pushing seniors down stairs I start to look elsewhere.

[tyckspoon]

What I liked was the new feat choices and the de-nerfing of some of the blaster weapons (I mean, come on, in the first one dual wielding pistols was better than toting a single, massive, badass laser gun...)

Still is in 2, largely thanks to the upgrade system. Using a set of two weapons with each one topped up with the best upgrade set you can find or make is going to turn out more powerful than using a rifle. Especially toward endgame, when there's no practical limit on what you can put on the things and you've got good base pistols to work with.

[Semidi]

I didn't like the influence system in Kotor II. I'm one of those hopeless nerds who cares about the story and I found it annoying and slightly arbitrary the way it was handled. For instance, I'd be nice to someone, and it didn't count because it was in a cut scene.

KOTOR II was incredibly easy. The first one was easy too, but the second one was like a child's play. I mean, once you got lightning storm, it suddenly became a cakewalk. At least in the first one, level 18 was a relatively high level, but in the second one level 18 is like midpoint of the game.

KOTOR II's ending was ****. And I hated being forced to take certain party members places. Mandalore and Visas are boring.


Also, the game's exploration of a Jedi rediscovering his/her talents, as well as the game's meditations on what it is to be a Jedi, were considerably more fleshed-out than the simple cutscene of retraining given in KOTOR1.

To be fair, after the cut scene in KOTOR 1, you start off as a level 1 Jedi, it's not like you suddenly start off as Korn Destroyer of Worlds.

Now, if you want silly, I hated how I could train party members to be Jedi. "hey look, just focus for a little bit and you'll suddenly get enough training that usually takes most people years to get!"

I thought the overall plot of KOTOR II was worse off and uninteresting compared to KOTOR I, but I liked the characters in II far more than I did 1. Perhaps that's because I'm more of a "Darker and Edgier" fan.

[zuzak]

I guess my biggest complaint with the game was the villans. One had absolutely no characterization, since he couldn't talk, one was only known about by Kreia, who didn't say much, and Kreia was mysterious and also had little characterization.

That said, the planets were good, apart from the whole lack of story. Basically, the climax did not seem to be at all influenced by the protaganist's actions. The sidequests were interesting, but the plot was, "I am going to travel with you and we will kill random bad people who eat planets. I am not actually on your side. Oh no, I am dead because you killed me." I think that this was made significantly worse by the lack of interesting villans

As for the alignment, I tried choosing the good choices when they didn't cost anything, and the evil ones when I got something from it, and my character would be strongly good aligned.


The Light Side IS Balance. As opposed to the Dark Side, which is Imbalance.
In the movies, Anakin was "destined to bring balence to the universe." Neither the Light nor Dark side is a balence between good and evil: one is good, the other is evil.

[SmartAlec]

In the movies, Anakin was "destined to bring balence to the universe." Neither the Light nor Dark side is a balence between good and evil: one is good, the other is evil.

The way I understand it, the Jedi are all about balance, rather than good. The Force is fundamentally without morality - the Light side simply tends more towards benevolence, representing life and harmony, whereas the Dark side tends more towards unlpeasantness, being death and discord, but they aren't the same as Good and Evil.

So yes, Jedi can - in extremes - lie, cheat, steal, even kill, as long as they're doing so with the aim of preserving peace and justice and whilst keeping a calm, open-minded outlook on what they're doing. And yes, Anakin's 'balance' was not a balance 'between' the Light and Dark sides, more a cleaning of the clock - removing the polarising aspects, the old stagnant Jedi order and the Sith and allowing Luke to start the Jedi again, afresh. At the end of it, no-one can deny that the Light side was triumphant in the end (EU aside).

I will agree that the KOTOR sliding scale of morality and the choices that you were allowed to make to demonstrate which side you fell on were pretty facile from time to time, but the actual message - that it was better to pick a side and work towards it rather than not picking a side and eventually falling to one against your will (which was eventually unavoidable, thanks to the nature of the Force) was quite correct, at least by my understanding of the mythos.

I'll admit it's only one possible interpretation, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.

[Half-blood]

...Okay then. I Prefer Kotor I. But Kotor II wasn't THAT bad. But, it wasn't...Aw, who am I kidding? Kotor II Was probably the worst piece of Star wars I've ever seen. Namely for this list of reasons.

1.Darth Nihilus ("main" antagonist) Took up over half of the Cover. Appeared a grand total of THREE Times.

2.Plot lines. The game seems to have come out like...Half made. Just to make the christmas Date or something. What happened with G0-T0 and the remote? Whats with the HK-50s? where are they coming from? Whats with Nihilus? etc. etc.

3.Again. Everyones a Jedi. the only people that can't be jedi are as follows: Mandalore (Dunno why) Hanharr (Because lucas forbid any more Wookiee jedi) G0-T0, T3-M4, and HK-47 (Droids) This is because someone sent a complaint to Lucas arts saying "Jedi are overpowered" They then fixed it by MAKING EVERYONE JEDI

4.Poor Plot. You wasted half the game tracking down 4 Jedi masters (One of which was dead) only to watch them Die in an Instant.

So in comparison? Kotor (good version)I > Kotor (Bad version)II

[Archpaladin Zousha]

2.Plot lines. The game seems to have come out like...Half made. Just to make the christmas Date or something. What happened with G0-T0 and the remote? Whats with the HK-50s? where are they coming from? Whats with Nihilus? etc. etc.

That's because the game was rushed. There was a lot of content that was cut from the game to make the release date. For example, there was supposed to be an all-droid planet where Bao-Dur sacrifices his life to save you. Near the end, HK-47 discovers the HK-50 factory beneath the Telos military facility you went through at the beginning, and leads them against G0-T0 or the remote depending on your alignment. And a host of other things. Actually there's a project going on dedicated to restoring the cut material and releasing it as a mod.

That said, I liked KOTOR II. The philosophical discussions of the Force and its nature were what really got me. It reminded me that while the Jedi were warriors, they were also philosophers, which added to the versimilitude for me. But yes, it is a flawed game. KOTOR I wasn't as deep, but if there's one thing BioWare's good at it's plot. Obsidian was still testing its wings.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

SmartAlec: Just because I cross the path of a youth and do not either: a) eat him, b) adopt him and devote my life to molding him into my vision of a wholesome member of society, does not mean that I am trying to balance the scales of good an evil. If I ignore the twerp en route to my ship and continue on my merry way to end/save the galaxy, the status quo has been maintained and I can continue dealing with the big picture.


Yes... point 2, from the above list, punted me right out of what little willing suspension of disbelief I had in the game. George is a money grubbing simpleton who is milking the Star Wars franchise until it's udders bleed. He pushes FOR the abuse of overused cliches and tropes (going so far as stating that both a comic relief character and a romantic interest for the protagonist are VITAL plot points in all Star Wars material), and he pushes the half-assed, coagulated mass as though it were mana from on high! :smallfurious: I just pray that Lucas not having much direct involvement in The Force Unleashed (editing plot as opposed to writing it) will result in a QUALITY story for a change. The mechanics already look impressive despite the tendancy of enemies to cling lovingly to one another when levitated. All that remains is the magic of plot.


Reflection: I'm kind of sassy tonight. :smallconfused:

[Zarah]

I just pray that Lucas not having much direct involvement in The Force Unleashed (editing plot as opposed to writing it) will result in a QUALITY story for a change. The mechanics already look impressive despite the tendancy of enemies to cling lovingly to one another when levitated. All that remains is the magic of plot.

From what I understand, TFU is the one SW game that George has had the most involvement with. And it already shows.

As for KotOR II, I have to admit that I did prefer it to the original. The plot twist of the first was a lot better, but I enjoyed the characters of the sequel a lot more than I did in the original. Mr. Onasi annoyed me to no end with his whining.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

From what I understand, TFU is the one SW game that George has had the most involvement with. And it already shows.

As for KotOR II, I have to admit that I did prefer it to the original. The plot twist of the first was a lot better, but I enjoyed the characters of the sequel a lot more than I did in the original. Mr. Onasi annoyed me to no end with his whining.

From the interviews I saw on some game site (I forget the name) the crew behind the game was saying that Lucas's involvement in the project has been naught but what I stated above. That may have changed over the span of the past month, but what I saw looked to be a massive step up from the series of literary trainwrecks that were episodes 1-3.

[RTGoodman]

I much prefer KotOR I over the sequel. Of course, I got so bored with the second one that I gave up about a third or half of the way through, so I'm probably not the best judge of it. I remember doing all sorts of cool stuff from the first one (besides being stuck on that first planet for like six years, only to have it blow up or something), but in the second one all I remember doing is running around trying to get off of that mining place and then trying to find that freakin' R2 unit.

I guess with all the praise, though, I should give it another try at some point.

[Zarah]

From the interviews I saw on some game site (I forget the name) the crew behind the game was saying that Lucas's involvement in the project has been naught but what I stated above. That may have changed over the span of the past month, but what I saw looked to be a massive step up from the series of literary trainwrecks that were episodes 1-3.

Eh, it doesn't look like much of an improvement to me. I'm probably just jaded because I hate the way they've been hyping the whole "Force Unleashed" project. I have a feeling I'm not going to be very impressed with it.


I much prefer KotOR I over the sequel. Of course, I got so bored with the second one that I gave up about a third or half of the way through, so I'm probably not the best judge of it. I remember doing all sorts of cool stuff from the first one (besides being stuck on that first planet for like six years, only to have it blow up or something), but in the second one all I remember doing is running around trying to get off of that mining place and then trying to find that freakin' R2 unit.

I think that's another problem with KotOR II. The first game could be picked up and played no problem. While in KotOR II, you really have to immerse yourself in it, since it does seem a lot slower than the first (especially the beginning of the game. Peragus can burn). There's tons of dialogue, and it gives you a lot of information, especially about the Mandalorian Wars, and if you're not really into the whole thing, then a lot of it would probably just be boring.

[LurkerInPlayground]

First, let me say that I really, really liked the first Knights of the Old Republic. One of the best games of all time, with a compelling story and everything.

But now to the point: the sequel. Everyone praises it for it's deep story and such, and (blasphemy!) says it's even better than the original.

Deep story? What deep story? Let's see, there's this incredibly annoying old woman (Kreia) who IS REALLY THE MAIN VILLAIN! Wait, didn't she say or at least imply that, like, a HUNDRED times before. Let's look at the other villains: a morally conflicted zombie (as uninteresting as he is wounded) and a "mighty destroyer of worlds"-kinda guy who only speaks in tounges. And the other party characters: Atton Rand, who is totally uninteresting, Visas Marr, the same, Handmaiden girl/strange guy, same again, bounty hunter girl, evil wookiee, flying ball, zabrak techie with droid companion, same same same SAME.

And the "story" itself: You're this Jedi general something, and you're supposed to find some other Jedi, and OH NO! They're dead! Almost the whole game FOR NO GOOD!

The only thing that saves this game from total horribility (?) is HK-47, probably the greatest video game character ever. But then again, even the E.T. game probably would have been good if they had stuck HK-47 there.

And no, a complete ending wouldn't have saved it.

Meatbag.
I disagree. I felt there was a lot of potential there. KOTOR2 is taking the some of the parts of KOTOR1 that I really thought were the weightiest issues.

Jedi aren't infallible. Light side is an artificial extrapolation that makes Jedi think they are infallible. The original Star Wars never even mentioned a Light Side, just that there happened to be a Dark Side.

The Dark Side, by comparison, is what humans do with the Force. The generic Good versus Evil bit alway did chafe me the wrong way. Jolee Bindo was easily my favorite KOTOR One character for this reason, and I felt all the introspection about moral philosophy was hindered by the sliding scale of "Light" and "Dark."

That and the Dark Side doesn't even have to be stereotypic. Kreia is far from your dogmatic Sith. So is Revan. Sith have ideological differences as well. And this theme is touched in a subquest of the first game when (or if) you choose to spare one of the Sith students at the academy and he tells you that, "huh. . .there is more than one way to be a Sith." It is refreshing to see some Sith who don't act like playground bullies, who actually have some standards that aren't merely hollow self-justifications.

Kreia has some of the best Jolee-like dialogue ever. Kreia is the villain who actually loves the protagonist. Mentor and antagonist rolled into one. Interesting alchemy there. You even throw in some of the musings on how leadership and power can mold a galaxy of followers.

Then you have the Mandalorian War and its aftereffects. Star Wars, oddly enough, never seems to be about war. About the grunts. About the common people who suffer. Cue a veteran slash disgraced Jedi, who has a form of Jedi version of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome that resonates throughout the Force. That's just downright cool as a story concept.

The party characters of KOTOR2, actually do have back-stories to them, which I might add, are more involved than:
-Generic straight-lace soldier angsting about revenge and betrayal.
-A sexually frustrated and feisty Jedi padawan who falls to the Dark Side in the most comically emo way possible. (The Dark Side is Emo!)
-A clone of Chewbacca.

When all that heavy **** is flying around, KOTOR 1 just seems so generic. Linear even. I didn't really bat an eye to discover the twist about the main character.

[Maxymiuk]

I realize I'm spitting against the tide here, but Carth Onasi was what sold KotOR I as a good game to me. Specifically, the conversation you have with him right after waking up on Taris. Sure, essentially all he says is "We're screwed, the Republic is screwed, and the Jedi are screwed... but let's go and try to make a difference," but between the dialogue itself (which was good) and the voice acting (which was excellent), it pretty much set the tone for the rest of the game. It's small wonder he became a permanent character in my party, even if there were more optimal options (Jedi bum rush).

Plus, the sheer amount of snark he displayed in conversations with Bastilla made it easy to overlook the occasional bout of existential angst.


As far as KotOR II goes, Kreia wins the Character I Most Wanted To Choke With My Own Bare Hands Award. Forever going behind my back, reviving dead wookies, threatening other party members, and generally being a cryptic old bat.

But in a good way.

However, neither her shenenigans, nor the poignant philosophical discussions, nor even... - well, OK, I can't actually come up with a trifecta - could make up for the painful, obtuse, glittering brick that was the game's plot. Between the rushed release, the sheer amount of gimmicks that ended up getting thrown in, and the absolutely mindbogglingly underwhelming end sequence I've felt like I've just wasted 20 hours of my life - compared to the 40 spent on the first KotOR, just to give you an idea of how much shorter the sequel was.

[Trazoi]

Personally, I think they should have had more evil choices, like genocide, or maybe burning down a house full of children.
I'd have hated that. That's still the equivalent of kicking orphans down the stairs, just at a larger level. I wanted a deeper more thoughtful type of Sith choices, the equivalent of Palpatine. The sort who actually would save people, purely because then they owe you a favour that you can hold over their heads for life. This was touched upon in the KoTOR games (there was a specific example of the one I mentioned), but nowhere near to the extent I'd have liked. It was many acting like a total jerk, which frankly is tipping your hand as an evil guy a little too early when you've got a bunch of Jedi looking over your shoulder.

Personally, I liked the potential of the story of KoTOR II than KoTOR I as I felt it touched deeper themes. KoTOR I was an enjoyable story, but KoTOR II was a bit more philosophical. Unfortunately KoTOR II was severely hamstrung by being extremely unfinished. I'm hoping for the Team Gizka Restoration Project (http://team-gizka.org/) to fix some of those problems.

[Jibar]

I think that's another problem with KotOR II. The first game could be picked up and played no problem.

Ji-*dies from trying to contemplate this*
TARIS!
FREAKING TARIS!
I... HATE... Taris.
I know I'm going to be a Jedi, so why do they torture me like that. If I knew I would be spending the whole game as a non-Jedi, I wouldn't mind, but having it hanging over my head. Knowing that all these levels are just being wasted, wasted, as they will become obsolete in the face of my Jedi levels.
You give me the choice, Jedi, or non-Jedi, no multiclassing, I might just play a non-Jedi, but when you force Jedi upon me, no matter what, you're just ****ing with me now.
I got so frustrated by it that I just said "Screw this." and got a mod that made me a Jedi from the start. Taris no longer seemed pointless. Now it held meaning as something other than a detour to Dantooine.

KoToR II, no ****ing with me. Jedi from the start.
I didn't have to get a mod to make the beginning seem worth it to me.

Actually about my only complaint with KoToR II was the Force Crush ability. It was so overpowered with my Sith Lord. I stopped having to work in fights. And the really annoying thing was I got it so far into the game that I had already stopped working in fights. The game just became a trudge for the next bit of story.

[Paragon Badger]

If only it had been finished...

And yes, I do find the philosophy more interesting than KotOR I's story.

Particularly about Revan.

I very much like the fact that the Republic would basically have been destroyed had it not been for a Sith Lord.

His 'getting on a bus to fight some other menace' was a lame deus ex machina, though. And ultimately, out-of-character.

GOTO says so himself, the Republic would collapse in a few months (unless a certain main character stablized, cough cough).

Revan would not leave his baby in such a vulnerable position, Light OR Dark. :smalltongue:

[Prince Gimli]

In terms of plot, I found Kotor 1 by far the most enjoyable of the two. Even though some might call it cliché, better a very well done cliché than a crappy 'original' plotline.
Bastilla was a bit of a pathetic snobbish emo at times as mentioned previously in this thread. Carth Onasi is a nicely worked out good guy, but his whining can get annoying at times. Both Jolee Bindo and HK-47 are great. Jolee because he is 'neutral' in terms of light or dark, but is a better goodguy than the stubborn self righteous holier-than-thou Jedi masters from episodes 1 to 3.
These jedi masters may perhaps even be called naive, because they simply cannot even contemplate the possibility that they might be in error or misguided. Palpatine on the other hand, understands the human psyche all too clearly, that is why he managed to convince Anakin to choose his side. Where Palpatine gave Anakin compassion, friendship and acceptance, the jedi were never accepting Anakin for who and what he was, they just expected him to be as stoic as them. But I digress.
HK-47 is a classic, he is so brutally homocidal it often gets comical without going too much over the top and becoming annoying.
For a catwoman, Juhani is dissapointingly following the main character around like a pathetic puppy, but considering her past it is understandable and forgiveable.

Now on to the issue this thread was originally about, KoTOR 2.

The philosophical discussions about the nature of the Force and the broad reflecting viewpoint on the wars and all related things were what I really enjoyed in this game, and this is a big plus compared to part 1.
Some characters were great, others were bland and not really interesting. Kreia is a master manipulator and has phenomenal insight into the Force and its workings. Handmaiden is a bit bland, the Disciple isn't too interesting. T3-M4 is a very kind and cute droid, in spirit an ancestor of R2-D2. The classical HK-47 makes a glorious comeback, more homocidal and more amusing than ever. Bao Dur is a nicely done dependable engineer/tinker sidekick with a mechanical arm with a twist. Visas, The Disciple and the Handmaiden aren't very interesting, but not horrible either. The only real use in terms of powergaming the Handmaiden has is that she teaches you the ability that gives you your wisdom modifier to Armor Class. The Disciple is just weird, if you make him a Jedi he becomes a Consular, while his starting wisdom is a mediocre 10. In terms of roleplay and story, they aren't bad however.
Mandalore is a grunt. Depending on feat choices he can be reasonably capable in both melee and with guns, but for shooting I'd take the more enjoyable HK 47, and if I want melee I take a jedi along. As a character he's nice, but nothing special. Hanharr is well described by Kreia as a beast. Not an animal, no a beast. An insane and insanely strong beast. (Especially if you exploit the loop in which you can continue to lower his intelligence and raise his strenght. Who needs him for a skill monkey anyway, the only thing this monster does is chop things up in a brutal way.)

As previously mentioned, the fact that every party member except for droids, the wookiee and the guy in the armor (Mandalore) may now become jedi is just weird. Why may there not be wookiee jedi anyway?
(Well who the hell needs wookiee jedi when you can have wookiee ninja cooks anyway?:smallbiggrin:)
A very nice touch is that every character now has his own special feat or ability. Kreia's mentor ability for example, which gives a slight increase in experience gained while she is in your party. A pity some characters are still so uninteresting both in fighting power and/or roleplaying aspects.

[Muz]

Yeah, I do agree with that. One of the reasons why I so rarely play 'evil' characters is because the options generally involve little more than foaming at the mouth and kicking the nearest old lady/orphan down a flight of stairs. Which is funny, if you're twelve. Otherwise it gets a bit tiresome.

Agreed. One thing I'm hoping for in KOTOR3 (besides, ya know, just it ever being made) is the option to be more Palpatiniously(tm) Evil. I want the option to manipulate and lie a bit more rather than to just be genuinely good or do the stair-kick. I think KOTOR2 did give a little more flexibility in this than #1, but it's been a while, so I can't recall for sure.

[Gamerlord]

KOTOR 2 isn't bad!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Many of us here aren't saying that it is, only that it has a number of glaring flaws when compared with its tighter, more polished predecessor. I still get a kick out of playing it.

In response to Jibar's little rant though, KOTOR II has problems of it's own. Sure you start out as a Jedi, but you don't have the opportunity to get your paws on a lightsaber until the third freakin' planet (counting Peragus and Telos).

I have a friend who still is miffed that his game got accidentally erased before he had the chance to make his lightaber. And isn't having a lightsaber the whole point of being a Jedi?

[SmartAlec]

And isn't having a lightsaber the whole point of being a Jedi?

Funnily enough, that's a question the game goes as far as to ask you outright.

"Why do you want a Lightsaber?"

[The Rose Dragon]

And isn't having a lightsaber the whole point of being a Jedi?

Actually, having the Force is the whole point of being a Jedi. The lightsaber is just a nifty bonus.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Agreed. One thing I'm hoping for in KOTOR3 (besides, ya know, just it ever being made) is the option to be more Palpatiniously(tm) Evil. I want the option to manipulate and lie a bit more rather than to just be genuinely good or do the stair-kick. I think KOTOR2 did give a little more flexibility in this than #1, but it's been a while, so I can't recall for sure.

hmm.. Moral choices like they promised there would be in Fallout 3 would be nice. The good, the evil, and the neutral choices. And all of those can change the landscape of the game.

I freaking hate games that gives you a good/evil choices that are so extreme it's caricatural, and yet there isn't any feedback following said choice!!! :smallfurious: I killed THE source of All Kolto in the Galaxy, yet the mere problem is that I am banished from the planet? Oh my god, I still had finished the proper quest, I so don't care!

No feedback from the sith or the Republic. No one heard of my deed outside of the Koltoworld.

I WIPED OUT the entire Sith Academy, do I even hear a "thank you" from the Jedi?! I saved a few force adept from becoming Sith, yet I never hear what happen to them after that. Would be fun to see them on Dantooine, groveling to the Jedis the same way they did the Sith, but with the Jedi trying gently to make them understand what's wrong with them.

[Muz]

In my KOTOR-replay, I just ran through the Leviathan while tossing aside anyone who got in my way (Sith troopers, dark jedi, Saul, etc.) with Force Wave.
Lightsabers are for punks. :smallwink:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Actually, having the Force is the whole point of being a Jedi. The lightsaber is just a nifty bonus.

Then why are the lightsaber duels the climax of any given Star Wars film? Sure Palpatine tried to fry Luke with Force Lightning but that was only after Luke had fought his nigh-epic duel with Vader. In addition, if you read the descriptions on some of the various robes and armor you collect (like the Zeison Sha Warrior Armor, or the Barran Do Sage robes) you'll see that there are other orders of Force users throughout the galaxy. What separates them from the Jedi? Simple. Lightsabers.:smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

The only real use in terms of powergaming the Handmaiden has is that she teaches you the ability that gives you your wisdom modifier to Armor Class.

That and the infinite robes trick- ask Handmaiden to put on some clothes after sparring with her. Go to the equip screen and remove the robes. Repeat as desired. Her Robes sell for a fair bit and break down into, IIRC, 200 components with a high enough Repair.



As previously mentioned, the fact that every party member except for droids, the wookiee and the guy in the armor (Mandalore) may now become jedi is just weird. Why may there not be wookiee jedi anyway?


I think Kreia mentions this in some of her epilogue dialogue; you're attracting those Force Sensitives who are meant to become the seeds of the next era of Jedi (or Sith, but it's probably safe to assume the canonical Exile is Light Side) It sounds like a copout, but the story of the game is largely about how the Force connects people and how they can affect each other through those connections.. a more complete end scene might have Kreia explain how it was effectively inevitable that you would meet those people as a result of your actions and own presence in the Force.

[The Rose Dragon]

Then why are the lightsaber duels the climax of any given Star Wars film? Sure Palpatine tried to fry Luke with Force Lightning but that was only after Luke had fought his nigh-epic duel with Vader. In addition, if you read the descriptions on some of the various robes and armor you collect (like the Zeison Sha Warrior Armor, or the Barran Do Sage robes) you'll see that there are other orders of Force users throughout the galaxy. What separates them from the Jedi? Simple. Lightsabers.:smalltongue:

Well, I mostly prefer having the power to bend reality with my willpower to having a sword that shines and deflects other shiny things. Cause, you know, it's cooler.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, I mostly prefer having the power to bend reality with my willpower to having a sword that shines and deflects other shiny things. Cause, you know, it's cooler.

B-but I like shiny things!:smallfrown:

[SilentNight]

I'm talking balance, not apathy. Is moderation such a foriegn concept?:smalltongue:

The first time I played both games I ended up with a slightly good inclined neutral character that was far from good at what it did. I just barely managed to beat the first one and didn't have a chance in the second.

That said, the first game was absolutely one of the best I have ever played. The second one was good not even worthy of licking the space-boots of the first. I will also second that Force Crush+ Sith Lord=win. To much win if you ask me. What was strange was that While Pazaak was finally doable in the second one, swoop racing got a big helping from the bad plate.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

That's what I'm talking about! I forget the name of it, but the one FPS game in the Star Wars genre had a third alignment that was neutral. Thus, one could have a balanced (as opposed to one extreme or another) view of the world WITHOUT being gimptacular. Why do I always play a baby eating monster in KotOR games? 1. To screw with my roomate. 2. Because it was fun in addition to being the unrealistic road to long term power. The "evil" mindset in the game isn't so much "evil" as it is shortsighted, yet it yields lasting results. Whereas "good" is blindly altruistic in a fantasy world where harmful betrayal only occurs when it's scripted for you to eventually off the character. It's a sick pattern that only serves to encourage the juvinile mindsets of the virtues of either callus selfishness or justifiable self-righteous fury. :smallfurious:





With that said: I still had a ball watching my roomy's struggle to take down the BBEG with is saint, only to later waltz through the fight with my supernatural strangler. :smallamused:

[Blayze]

Oh, the times I wanted to kill Kreia. It seemed as if no matter *what* I did, no matter *what* I said, I was *wrong*. Even in terms of gaining Influence with her, everything seemed to cause me to lose it. Eventually I gave up and cheated her Influence to maximum so that I could get the dialogues I wanted without actually having to *care*.

I ended up going solo most of the time, to be honest. I can't remember if I had 50 to each stat or +50 modifiers from each by the end (Without cheating), but however high it was it made the game a breeze.

Jedi Sentinel > Jedi Weapon Master was my path of choice, and I was pretty much THE MAN. Gotta love having Skill points coming out of every orifice and enough Feats to choke a donkey.

[Toastkart]

I think that was kind of the point, though. Kreia's message was often about not going to extremes at either end of the spectrum, light side or dark side, but about finding a kind of homeostasis. This was actually kind of implemented into both games.

In KOTOR 1, I played through once as force neutral, and the more neutral choices I made, the less light or dark side points I got when I did make choices that were clearly (based on previous playthroughs) light or dark. I also did this with KOTOR 2, although I never did finish that playthrough. I still had a hard time gaining influence with Kreia doing this, but not as hard as when I went full light side.

[Jibar]

In response to Jibar's little rant though, KOTOR II has problems of it's own. Sure you start out as a Jedi, but you don't have the opportunity to get your paws on a lightsaber until the third freakin' planet (counting Peragus and Telos).

I have a friend who still is miffed that his game got accidentally erased before he had the chance to make his lightaber. And isn't having a lightsaber the whole point of being a Jedi?

I didn't actually mind that. Sure, it was annoying to have equip some characters with blasters to make them effective when they should have lightsabers, but it was such a small inconvience compared to wasting six levels odd that could been put into Jedi levels.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I didn't actually mind that. Sure, it was annoying to have equip some characters with blasters to make them effective when they should have lightsabers, but it was such a small inconvience compared to wasting six levels odd that could been put into Jedi levels.

Yeah, but Taris was easy enough that you could breeze through it quickly without leveling your character. I'd level up to level three or four and then hold back on levelling until arriving at Dantooine and becoming a Jedi. And sometimes those levels were handy. I mean, as a scout you get the three implant feats for free, not to mention flurry, which is handy for dual-wielders like me. I'll admit it's not as fun as starting as a straight Jedi, but it I didn't mind it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yeah, but Taris was easy enough that you could breeze through it quickly without leveling your character. I'd level up to level three or four and then hold back on levelling until arriving at Dantooine and becoming a Jedi. And sometimes those levels were handy. I mean, as a scout you get the three implant feats for free, not to mention flurry, which is handy for dual-wielders like me. I'll admit it's not as fun as starting as a straight Jedi, but it I didn't mind it.

I think the worst part about it, it'S when you don't know that you will end up as a jedi.

The first time I played it, I choosed a Soldier, with good ranged attack-based feat. Oh boy was I pissed when I saw that you end up WITH A FREAKING LIGHTSWORD!! If you want to make me a Jedi, GIVE ME THE CHOICE!

(and why making the Lightswords the most powerful weapons of the game?! It seems that "you have to be a lightsaber jedi to rock". Damned Uchiha Syndrom)

[ZeroNumerous]

(and why making the Lightswords the most powerful weapons of the game?! It seems that "you have to be a lightsaber jedi to rock". Damned Uchiha Syndrom)

You are wrong, good sir. :smalltongue:

A Jedi Guardian/Scoundrel dual-wielding Mandalorian Rippers does a much better job at damage dealing than a lightsaber wielder. And with a better effect due to the ability to add stun chance to both Rippers. :smallbiggrin:


I'm talking balance, not apathy. Is moderation such a foriegn concept?:smalltongue:

Balance -is- Apathy. Using your previous example, you have ignored the plight of a young orphan because you did not care about him.


KOTOR II was incredibly easy. The first one was easy too, but the second one was like a child's play.

To be fair: Neither one is particularly hard if you're a min-maxer in normal D&D, little lone a game as easy as KotoR. :smallamused:


I will agree that the KOTOR sliding scale of morality and the choices that you were allowed to make to demonstrate which side you fell on were pretty facile from time to time, but the actual message - that it was better to pick a side and work towards it rather than not picking a side and eventually falling to one against your will (which was eventually unavoidable, thanks to the nature of the Force) was quite correct, at least by my understanding of the mythos.

AH-HA! But, this is where people seem to forget that KotoR II does have a plot. As SmartAlec has so eloquently put it: It is better to work towards a side rather than letting the Force choose one for you. In KotoR II, the plot centers around Kreia(not the Exile), attempting to destroy the Force because she's come to see it as some sort of omnipresent and malicious god that forces it's worshipers(both Jedi and Sith) to dance to it's whims. She hates this, and thus she wishes to kill it. KotoR II deals with this as it's plot, and the events that the Exile sets into motion during his/her trips through each world reflects this.


Actually, having the Force is the whole point of being a Jedi. The lightsaber is just a nifty bonus.

Actually, the idiotic dogma is the entire point of being a Jedi. The Force and the lightsaber are just nifty bonuses. :smalltongue:


Oh, the times I wanted to kill Kreia. It seemed as if no matter *what* I did, no matter *what* I said, I was *wrong*. Even in terms of gaining Influence with her, everything seemed to cause me to lose it. Eventually I gave up and cheated her Influence to maximum so that I could get the dialogues I wanted without actually having to *care*.

Thats because you failed to grasp what Kreia was trying to teach you. If you choose to indulge someone and take their struggles upon yourself(Light Side), then you weaken someone for the challenges that life presents. If you destroy and burn a potential ally or minion(Dark Side), then you're preventing the growth of another individual as well as robbing yourself of a potential resource. Using the "lost orphan" example posted by Hadrian_Emrys, the Dark Side would have you murder the orphan or sell him into slavery. The Light Side would have you help the orphan find a home or take him in yourself. The Kreia Side would have you help the boy, groom him, and then hold this over his head while forcing him to do something for you.


I think that was kind of the point, though. Kreia's message was often about not going to extremes at either end of the spectrum, light side or dark side, but about finding a kind of homeostasis. This was actually kind of implemented into both games. ... I still had a hard time gaining influence with Kreia doing this, but not as hard as when I went full light side.

This is actually untrue. Kreia is not a Gray Jedi. She is a Sith. Kreia would have you do whatever puts you into a position of power so that you may control the ultimate outcome of the situation. Whether that choice is Light, Dark, or Neutral is irrelevant.

Kreia is a Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) to the extreme. She does--and tries to teach this the same thing to you--whatever it takes to put herself in the position of power. Ultimately, the Light, Dark, or Neutral ramifications of this action means nothing. Kreia only wants to know what you gain from your choice.

[SmartAlec]

AH-HA! But, this is where people seem to forget that KotoR II does have a plot. As SmartAlec has so eloquently put it: It is better to work towards a side rather than letting the Force choose one for you. In KotoR II, the plot centers around Kreia(not the Exile), attempting to destroy the Force because she's come to see it as some sort of omnipresent and malicious god that forces it's worshipers(both Jedi and Sith) to dance to it's whims. She hates this, and thus she wishes to kill it. KotoR II deals with this as it's plot, and the events that the Exile sets into motion during his/her trips through each world reflects this.

Well... um, that's almost what I meant. I guess I was trying to say that for Force-sensitives, there's no real choice. A force sensitive is just that, sensitive to the Force, and currents and tides in the Force'll eventually sweep you away if you don't find something to hold on to. It's just the way things work, and that Kreia is really kind of wrong and mad in trying to think of the Force as she does. To the issue of the Unifying Force and destiny, the Jedi say, 'this is how the universe is, we'll make the best of it'; the Sith response tends to vary, but is usually along the lines of 'this is how the universe is, I'll make the best USE of it'; Kreia's was 'this is how the universe is, and I hate it so much I am going to change it'.

Which is either madness or genius, but is definitely dangerous.

It should be noted that the most prominent canon character who tried to walk a path of 'Balance' between the Force and the Dark Side was Count Dooku. Yeah, how'd that work out for you, Tyranus? What's that? Fell to the Dark Side? You don't say.

[Blayze]

Thats because you failed to grasp what Kreia was trying to teach you.

No, I know precisely what Kreia was trying to teach me. It was what I know already from years of CRPGs: It was the path of the powergamer, in effect. Do whatever you need to do, be whoever you need to be, go wherever you need to go in order to advance your own goals in whatever manner you want and/or need.

Sadly for Kreia, she was stuck in a CRPG, a place where the Good/Light Side gets the best stuff in the long run. In other words, my *own* powergaming path revolves around the Good path, which is basically just "Give me my Light Side points" every time you get the chance.

The odd Dark Side slip was necessary, especially when dealing with Kreia herself for the abilities I could persuade her to share with me (The Influence system was the kicker here). Other than that, Double Light Side Mastery was the only way to go (Get Light Side Mastery in your first class, and then if you choose a Prestige Class the effects are doubled because you've got two classes, meaning +6 Con for me).

So yeah, I knew exactly what to do in order to get what I want, and I didn't let a little thing like morality stop me. That's all well and good. A good chunk of Kreia's dialogue, however, revolves around "You're wrong whatever you do".

No matter where you stand on the Alignment path, from -100 to +100, she insults your choices and actions. I've seen characters who are designed as "enigmatic" before, and Kreia just screamed "I wanna be enigmatic and mysterious". It got to the point with seemingly-random drops in my Influence with her that I was forced to save before I attempted any dialogue option whatsoever.

The dialogue options we were given left something to be desired, too, if memory serves, especially when Kreia was being set up to deal out one of her patented anti-everything rants. From what I can remember of the two-thirds of the game we actually got, the three main options in any conversation were always plainly Light Side, Dark Side and quest-refusingly apathetic.

[SilentNight]

Ji-*dies from trying to contemplate this*
TARIS!
FREAKING TARIS!
I... HATE... Taris.
I know I'm going to be a Jedi, so why do they torture me like that. If I knew I would be spending the whole game as a non-Jedi, I wouldn't mind, but having it hanging over my head. Knowing that all these levels are just being wasted, wasted, as they will become obsolete in the face of my Jedi levels.
You give me the choice, Jedi, or non-Jedi, no multiclassing, I might just play a non-Jedi, but when you force Jedi upon me, no matter what, you're just ****ing with me now.
I got so frustrated by it that I just said "Screw this." and got a mod that made me a Jedi from the start. Taris no longer seemed pointless. Now it held meaning as something other than a detour to Dantooine.

KoToR II, no ****ing with me. Jedi from the start.
I didn't have to get a mod to make the beginning seem worth it to me.

Actually about my only complaint with KoToR II was the Force Crush ability. It was so overpowered with my Sith Lord. I stopped having to work in fights. And the really annoying thing was I got it so far into the game that I had already stopped working in fights. The game just became a trudge for the next bit of story.
It was still eons better than the Paragus facility and Telos. Those are actually two of the main reasons I hated KoTOR II.
I really don't know why I so vastly prefer the first. Perhaps it is because the second one was less immersive or simply less refined. I don't know.

[SolkaTruesilver]

AH-HA! But, this is where people seem to forget that KotoR II does have a plot. As SmartAlec has so eloquently put it: It is better to work towards a side rather than letting the Force choose one for you. In KotoR II, the plot centers around Kreia(not the Exile), attempting to destroy the Force because she's come to see it as some sort of omnipresent and malicious god that forces it's worshipers(both Jedi and Sith) to dance to it's whims. She hates this, and thus she wishes to kill it. KotoR II deals with this as it's plot, and the events that the Exile sets into motion during his/her trips through each world reflects this.

No. The plot centered around finding Jedi Masters who dies 5 seconds after you reunite them.

and how the hell will she "destroy the force"? Has there been ANYTHING described about how she would do it?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No. The plot centered around finding Jedi Masters who dies 5 seconds after you reunite them.

and how the hell will she "destroy the force"? Has there been ANYTHING described about how she would do it?

I believe it had something to do with Malachor V and using the echoes from the Exile to effectively kill The Force.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I believe it had something to do with Malachor V and using the echoes from the Exile to effectively kill The Force.

And she had to kill the Exile to effectively do it?

Because it doesn'T seem as she gave me a choice in the matter.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Zero: Did I say the kid was an orphan? :smallamused:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And she had to kill the Exile to effectively do it?

Because it doesn'T seem as she gave me a choice in the matter.

Actually she wanted to sacrifice herself, apparently to open the larger wound in the Force at Malachor V. She wanted the Exile to kill her, and said that if she didn't Kreia would break her.

At least that's my understanding of the matter. It's all very hard to understand. I'd probably need to play the game three or four more times to get the full gist.

[Paragon Badger]

No. The plot centered around finding Jedi Masters who dies 5 seconds after you reunite them.

Oh come on. With all of Kreia's manipulative talks and cryptic speeches, you didn't sense the slightest bit of ulterior motive? The Jedi Masters were irrelevant to the plot. The main character was a tool to Kreia's ultimate designs.

She kills the masters and manipulates it so she can bring you to Malachor V, where the force is powerful enough to send enough vibrations through it to end it.


and how the hell will she "destroy the force"? Has there been ANYTHING described about how she would do it?

Yes. The Exile was once the emboidement of lacking the force. Not just incapable of using or feeling it, but devoid. Metaphorically, a transformer without a spark, but still 'alive'. :smalltongue:

Notice the entire game's themes of the force connecting people together. The Nar Shaddaa cutscene emphasizes this.

Kreia hoped, by repeating the Exile's 'deforcing' at a powerpoint in the force (Malachor V), she'd end the Force, and only the strongest (like the Exile) could survive. Heck, she didn't want to end all life- but was willing to sacrifice 99% of it to make the rest have better lives. At least, in her own words.

Much of the ending game was left unfinished. Sadly, it would have illuminated alot.

Also interesting to note, Nihilius and Sion are all 'failed exiles'.

Exile, a living body that can live without the force.
Sion, a dead body that is only kept alive by its own force.
Nihilius, a dead body(thing?) that has none of its own force, but must use the consumed force of its victims to stay alive.

Also, the Exile WOULD have died if they had the force on Malachor V. Because of the echoes that killed Nihilius and Sion (and all other Jedi there) but the Exile killed whatever force they had inside of them, protecting them from the lethal echoes.


So yeah, I knew exactly what to do in order to get what I want, and I didn't let a little thing like morality stop me. That's all well and good. A good chunk of Kreia's dialogue, however, revolves around "You're wrong whatever you do".

In the few times when you are given a good or bad choice (she admonishes you for either), Justifying your actions correctly can get her back on your side.

Otherwise, she favors practicality. Not neutrality, not morality, not omnicidal rampages. Practicality.

[SmartAlec]

Kreia doesn't exactly kill the Masters as such. She exposes the Masters to the emptiness in the Exile, confronting them with the original horror of Malachor that made the Exile sever him/herself from the Force. Unfortunately, the Masters aren't able to do the same, and die because of it.

Of course, that's exactly what Kreia expected to happen, but they could have lived...

As for there being too many Jedi in the party, that's... part of the plot of the game, you know? Rebuilding the Jedi Order? Why do you think you come across these people? Kreia refers to them as 'The Lost Jedi', and that's exactly what they are - powerful Force-sensitives whose talents went unrecognised, and were either ignored or subverted because of the Mandalorian War and all subsequent events.

Thematically, having people drawn to you because of their own buried Force gifts makes more sense than just having people tag along.

[Attilargh]

Of course, that's exactly what Kreia expected to happen, but they could have lived...
I see why you're called a Smart Alec. They also could have lived if she had wailed at them with her three psycho lightsabers.

[Tom_Violence]

So yeah, I knew exactly what to do in order to get what I want, and I didn't let a little thing like morality stop me. That's all well and good. A good chunk of Kreia's dialogue, however, revolves around "You're wrong whatever you do".

No matter where you stand on the Alignment path, from -100 to +100, she insults your choices and actions. I've seen characters who are designed as "enigmatic" before, and Kreia just screamed "I wanna be enigmatic and mysterious". It got to the point with seemingly-random drops in my Influence with her that I was forced to save before I attempted any dialogue option whatsoever.

I think there's a few reasons for this. One is that if you could really please Kreia all the way through then her buggering off after the Masters wouldn't make much sense - she had to be at least somewhat disappointed, otherwise at least one more ending would have been called for (and they couldn't even get a whole one as it was!). Also, no one ever said Kreia was perfect. She was a picky old hag with stupidly high standards at times (I'm actually surprised she never uttered the words "We are not amused!"). She was also someone that had been cut off from the force herself, and that screwed her up big time. She was in a position to learn things, not just to teach, though she may not necessarily have realised it at the time. I think she was fairly easy to figure out, once you realise that you're not there to kiss her ass all the time.


The dialogue options we were given left something to be desired, too, if memory serves, especially when Kreia was being set up to deal out one of her patented anti-everything rants. From what I can remember of the two-thirds of the game we actually got, the three main options in any conversation were always plainly Light Side, Dark Side and quest-refusingly apathetic.

I agree with you there. It was always "I'll do it right away, with love!", or "If you give me a load of cash, I might do it", or "Bother someone else! I'm not playing this game to actually do stuff in it!"


No. The plot centered around finding Jedi Masters who dies 5 seconds after you reunite them.

and how the hell will she "destroy the force"? Has there been ANYTHING described about how she would do it?

I second the notion that you perhaps weren't quite paying enough attention during the game, or you ran across the old 'Didn't Pick The Right Options In Dialogue And Thus Missed Out On Something Important For No Reason' problem. Either way, that wasn't the plot, and Kreia's methods are certainly explained somewhere in the ending segments.

[SmartAlec]

I see why you're called a Smart Alec. They also could have lived if she had wailed at them with her three psycho lightsabers.

Ah, but - had she simply attacked them with lightsabers and been defeated, she wouldn't give it another thought. If any of the Jedi Masters had been able to cut themselves off from the Force and live - essentially, if they show themselves able to go through the same experience the Exile did - Kreia might even have gone so far as to admit they had merit.

[Jayngfet]

Then why are the lightsaber duels the climax of any given Star Wars film? Sure Palpatine tried to fry Luke with Force Lightning but that was only after Luke had fought his nigh-epic duel with Vader. In addition, if you read the descriptions on some of the various robes and armor you collect (like the Zeison Sha Warrior Armor, or the Barran Do Sage robes) you'll see that there are other orders of Force users throughout the galaxy. What separates them from the Jedi? Simple. Lightsabers.:smalltongue:

if I recall correctly there are the jensari, they wield lightsabers and didn't make much peaceful contact with the jedi or sith til after the order.

[Hawriel]

Well I dont know about the rest of you but I turned the Mandalor (candaris) into a duel red lightsaber swinging jedi badass. I did it the second time I played the game. Once he joined the party I focust on him and few other favorites. I always have one or two that I didnt convert to the force though. You gota hold their hands through the entire game.

The second game had a great plot idea with epic in mind. It fell way flat for the following reasons in my point of vew.

Plot holes. I dont mean contradictions in the story I mean the gaps in the game. There are places on the map on two planets that I know have been cut off. Thoughs cut off placess invalve quests that have been left out. Left out sotry line. you have all mentioned them. The last third of the game was so full of holes they tried to fill it with minion killing.

Batman sindrome. The game was suffering from to many villians. Nilhilis (sp?) could have been a great spooky scare the hell out the most evil sith lord bad guy. Because of plot holes he gets popped like nothing and well nothing comes of it after words. I just made a mental check mark of one down two to go. Zombie guy was fleshed out more (heh :) but I still felt there was somthing missing from his story. He was just a boss after buzz sawing through the sith temple. Kriea well i though she was great. I loved that character. I wouldnt be supprised of O'l Papa Papintine was a desendant. He whole reveal was gimped because of the wholes in the game. There was just way to much story invalved with three main villans alont with the deep force phylosiphy going on. The game fell apart for me because of this. Thats why I hate it.

One last. Oh there happens to be a big evil galactic threat some ware out there so Im going off alone by now. That was dumn as hell. It comes out of no ware. Oh little cutseens with Kriea's forsight as a naration about the furter of the supporting characters would have been great.

If they make another game I just pray that Bioware is invalved.

[pingcode20]

For the most part, I found KotOR II a lot more enjoyable than I, but that was mainly because when I played KotOR I I was playing on this fossil of a computer that would freeze up if I looked in the wrong direction (I believe I accomplished this desert world by holding down forwards and sort of pointing Revan in the right direction and hoping somewhere in his jumping into the walls would go into the right place). That, and I gimped my character because I persisted in trying to use armour and a blaster rifle.

The second, while I was a tad annoyed at the long stretch that was the initial dungeon without any vendors to hork my loot to (I learned to stop worrying and learn to love the workshops), once I got past that I found the philosophical probing quite refreshing. Unfortunately, the damnable 'Get 100% and win a free bonus!!!111' for the light/dark side thing hurt it a little, since I knew I had to choose the care bear option to maintain my bonuses.

Especially the Force Enlightenment, which came in handy. A lot.

The ending was weak, though - it didn't really resolve anything, except that your character going to shoot Kreia in the face on the dead world, all in the name of making you strong, and then embracing or rejecting her philosophy.

I also learned my lesson for combat, taking a Jedi Robe instead of the armour, but hung on to the blaster rifle line, tuning it to reduce lightsaber reflection ability and maximise damage - the expanded upgrade system really helped in this respect, rather than KotOR I's system of three components that just get moved around to your favourite weapon as you found new ones. It was extremely fun blatantly violating the Lucas law of the sword being mightier than the gun as you go Scarface on the arrogant dark jedi with a juiced up Mandalorian Repeating Blaster.

Min/Maxing the character for maximum firepower, interestingly enough, made the final confrontation surprisingly easy. Kreia's three psycho lightsabers may make for a strong defence against Jedi entering the central arena, but I don't think they accounted for Scarface Jedi turning her into a charred corpse from the entrance. More's the pity, too, since the entire battle became 'See Red Bar, Force Enlightenment, Rapid Shot Spam, End'.

[SmartAlec]

For those who feel they missed things in KOTOR2, here's a link I came across on the Team Gizka forums - an in-depth 'playthrough' of KOTOR2, complete with screenshots, musings on the story and analysis of the various clues you find in-game.

As the author says - the game is actually very well-written. Lots of apparently useless pieces of information all link back to the story. But to appreciate it, you have to have seen them -

http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html

So here they are.

Edit: Oh, yeah; in places, it's actually really funny, too. :smallcool:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Pingcode: try running at her naked and unarmed as a Darkside master. It's stupid easy fry the sabres and compress her into a singularity. :smallconfused:

[Jibar]

I would like to point out that SmartAlec's guide thingy is actually really good.
I'd also like to say that second to last entry was something I truly did not work out.
It's so subtle, yet so obvious at the same time.

[SmartAlec]

Just to clarify: the article's not my work! The original writer went by the name of Scorchy, and his forum writings were collected by someone called Schizoguy.

[Cristo Meyers]

I would like to point out that SmartAlec's guide thingy is actually really good.
I'd also like to say that second to last entry was something I truly did not work out.
It's so subtle, yet so obvious at the same time.

I am both in awe and nauseated at the same time.

In awe because that really was so subtle and well done that you could play the game a dozen times and never figure it out.

Nauseated because it was thrown down the crapper in order to get the game out. Such wasted potential...

[Jibar]

No, I think it's done.
It works so well thanks to the subtlety of it.
If you were to spell it out in big flashing letters at any point then you lose all effect.

The thing I don't understand is... well, only male Exiles will find it out, yet the Exile canonically is female.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

:smallconfused: I'm confused. What will male Exiles found out?

[The Rose Dragon]

Bah. The thought of Kreia sleeping with someone else a mere ten years ago is not something I'd like to think about. Or twenty five.

But yes, it is subtle, if that was what they were going for.

I still can't see Kreia ever being beautiful, though.

[Paragon Badger]

:smallconfused: I'm confused. What will male Exiles found out?

Handmaiden makes much more sense in the grander scheme of things than the lame scholar dude.

Her connection to Atris and all.

[SmartAlec]

Weeeell, if you assume that Kreia might have been about 40 when it happened - and that's no age, is it, not with the Force and medical science and all - then that would make her about 65 at the time of the game.

It takes about as much time for Ewan MacGregor's Obi-Wan to turn into Alec Guinness's Obi-Wan, after all.

If you want to try to imagine what Kreia looked like when she was younger, you don't have to look very far.

[The Rose Dragon]

Weeeell, if you assume that Kreia might have been about 40 when it happened - and that's no age, is it, not with the Force and medical science and all - then that would make her about 65 at the time of the game.

65? I was thinking Kreia was more like 95. My grandmother is 70 and she looks younger than Kreia. And Kreia has the Force, to boot.

I still don't think Kreia could have conceived a child at that age, let alone the Handmaiden.

Yes, it makes a twisted sort of sense, but I still call shenanigans.

[SmartAlec]

65? I was thinking Kreia was more like 95. My grandmother is 70 and she looks younger than Kreia. And Kreia has the Force, to boot.

Atton says it would take some hard living to give Kreia those creases, and I'd assume he's right; Kreia must have gone through some tough trials after Malachor. And, Kreia

fell to the dark side, and then

lost the Force and had to get by without it, so her elderly but well-preserved body might well have become decrepit fairly swiftly.

[stabbybelkar]

That's because the game was rushed. There was a lot of content that was cut from the game to make the release date. For example, there was supposed to be an all-droid planet where Bao-Dur sacrifices his life to save you. Near the end, HK-47 discovers the HK-50 factory beneath the Telos military facility you went through at the beginning, and leads them against G0-T0 or the remote depending on your alignment. And a host of other things. Actually there's a project going on dedicated to restoring the cut material and releasing it as a mod.

That said, I liked KOTOR II. The philosophical discussions of the Force and its nature were what really got me. It reminded me that while the Jedi were warriors, they were also philosophers, which added to the versimilitude for me. But yes, it is a flawed game. KOTOR I wasn't as deep, but if there's one thing BioWare's good at it's plot. Obsidian was still testing its wings.

yeah as soon as that mod comes out i'm going to go play KOTOR2 again

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I must admit, the ranting during Jedi Jesus' antics crack me up.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hum.. Ok..

- The scale of details implimented for Talos in incredible. I do say, INCREDIBLE.

- The Story that was supposed to be is.. again, incredible. I just thank the guy who wrote Jedi Jesus to make me discover it.

He is right by telling that it is a truly confident game-writer who can put a 15-minutes conversation as a chapter's climax. And KOTOR2's writer were up to the task..

I want to play this game again

But.. I feel so depressed.. I mean, it is something to know that something utterly suck. But it is something else to know that something had the basis to be so GREAT, and simply got cut..

What if we bought the rights for KOTOR2, re-hired the same team, and told them: "you have 3 years. Make the great game that is was supposed to be in the first place, with maybe more"

Edit: and by the way, it's been like, 2 years since I heard of this Gizka project. I though they had given up, are they still making progress? do they have an idea when it'll be playable?

[Tom_Violence]

The Gizka guys are still charging away with their project. No release date - they're taking the "its done when its done" approach.

And they're taking their sweet time over it. They're lucky no one paid them for that, otherwise whoever it was would doubtless have asked for a refund some time ago.

Aside: Why is the Exile canonically female? The story seemed a lot better with a male Exile to me. Did they want to just even things out after having a male Revan?

[Green Bean]

Edit: and by the way, it's been like, 2 years since I heard of this Gizka project. I though they had given up, are they still making progress? do they have an idea when it'll be playable?

Right now, they're at build 1.0b6. The public release will be 1.0c1, so it's getting really close.

[Jibar]

Aside: Why is the Exile canonically female? The story seemed a lot better with a male Exile to me. Did they want to just even things out after having a male Revan?

I know what you mean. Handmaiden is such a better character than Disciple.
Though, I think Atton comes across as a better romance option, especially in the cut content when he duels Sion over the Exile.
Whenever I play, female feels right, but male often wins over for the Visas romance since she and Mandalore formed my favourite characters.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

My favorite characters were the droids, especially T3. They gave him so much more personality in KOTOR II, while after I'd used him in KOTOR I I basically forgot he was there.

[Closet_Skeleton]

One problem with KotOR 2 is its contributions to the continuity:

1. Another Jedi Purge? Yawn.

2. So Basilisk War Droids are now some kind of star fighter? Right...

3. There's some kind of "True Sith" that only 1 old woman has ever heard of and Korriban, the homeworld of the race that have been the original sith for at least 15 years worth of EU continuity is only on the edge of their empire. This is salvagable but is still a terrible idea.

4. The Ravager is a Star Destroyer, plain and simple, but is way too early. The Interdictor ships introduced in KotOR 1 were also too much like Star Destroyers but at least they tried to stay as a mere "reference" to Star Destroyers than actually be them.

5. Darth Revan is now a good guy dark side user. What happened to this "dark side" that seduced and controlled you, completely perverting your original self? Giving Darth Revan good intentions would have been fine on its own because after all "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" but making him magically immune to the corrupting power of one of the primary parts of Star Wars in some kind of moralistic Godmodding just tramples over the continuity. Obsidian turned what used to be a cool character into a bad fanfic character.

These are all annoying headaches that someone will have to sort out later and could have been removed without ruining the plot. KotOR 1 was good because despite the fact that it had too much of a focus on equipment it felt like Star Wars and a role playing game at the same time with minimal compromises. If Obsidian wants to write its own plots that have little to do with the established continuity it should develope its own franchises not use liscensed ones. It should also stop making sequels to Bioware games. If Obsidian announce in a few years that they're working on "Sonic RPG 2" then I'm finally going to give up my hope for what is in theory a games developer with a good writing team.

[The Rose Dragon]

Basilisk War Droids were always some sort of Star Fighter. Remember Canderous referring to them in KotOR 1 (something like "30 inches of durasteel protecting me from the heat of entry to the atmosphere). They just weren't that big.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Basilisk War Droids were always some sort of Star Fighter. Remember Canderous referring to them in KotOR 1 (something like "30 inches of durasteel protecting me from the heat of entry to the atmosphere). They just weren't that big.

Sorry, but Basilisk War Droids first appeared in a comic book released in 1995 and look like this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/2/27/BasiliskWarDroid_egtd.png

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/4d/BasiliskWarDroid.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/92/Basilisk.jpg

Canderous' description is far from the original appearance of them. Canderous' description isn't exactly at odds with the original version either.

In theory Obsidian changed them because the originals "looked stupid" but they could have just invented their own Mandalorian drop pods and not confused things. Star Wars is full of stuff that "looks a bit stupid" and its done fine for 30 years. The Basilisk War Droid is kind of stupid and dorky but it's characterful, interesting and unique at the same time.

[Tom_Violence]

3. There's some kind of "True Sith" that only 1 old woman has ever heard of and Korriban, the homeworld of the race that have been the original sith for at least 15 years worth of EU continuity is only on the edge of their empire. This is salvagable but is still a terrible idea.

5. Darth Revan is now a good guy dark side user. What happened to this "dark side" that seduced and controlled you, completely perverting your original self? Giving Darth Revan good intentions would have been fine on its own because after all "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" but making him magically immune to the corrupting power of one of the primary parts of Star Wars in some kind of moralistic Godmodding just tramples over the continuity. Obsidian turned what used to be a cool character into a bad fanfic character.

I actually really liked both of these points. Hell, I think KotOR2 saved what was actually a largely crappy overall plot in number 1. The original's plot was basically "oh no! Evil Jedi are causing trouble! Lets go stop them!" Take out the twist and the plot itself is largely rubbish. It was all the little bits that actually made it interesting. Malak was about as cheesey as a badguy can get, to the extent that he even had the cliche laugh - I actually cringed every time I heard it. And Revan was just an absolute blank slate, not even a character at all until Obsidian came in and actually made something of him.

And I'm pretty sure Obsidian didn't introduce the "True Sith" idea. I'm not Star Wars scholar, but I'm certain I've heard that somewhere before.

Also, they didn't ruin the whole 'dark side seduction' thing. You're overreacting. All they did was say that one person, one person in the whole of existence, wasn't affected like that. Hardly worth kicking up too much of a fuss over. Besides, when do we ever really get to know that much about Revan's personality to that extent? We hear his philosophy, we know that he was able to concoct great plans, but we never hear that he was a 'good' person, really. Just that he needed the Republic intact to fight the other Sith.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I actually really liked both of these points. Hell, I think KotOR2 saved what was actually a largely crappy overall plot in number 1. The original's plot was basically "oh no! Evil Jedi are causing trouble! Lets go stop them!"

Except that KotOR 2's plot is basically "oh no! Evil Jedi are causing trouble! Let's go do something else!".


Malak was about as cheesey as a badguy can get, to the extent that he even had the cliche laugh - I actually cringed every time I heard it.

I'll admit that Malak was lame but at least he made sense with what previous material tells us about the Dark Side.


And Revan was just an absolute blank slate, not even a character at all until Obsidian came in and actually made something of him.

He does get a little characterisation from Canderous and HK-47 but I'll admit it isn't much.


And I'm pretty sure Obsidian didn't introduce the "True Sith" idea. I'm not Star Wars scholar, but I'm certain I've heard that somewhere before.

The thing is that there already was an idea of a previous group of Sith. The problem with Obsidians "True Sith" is that they are unreckonsiable with the pre-existing Sith and must therefore be a new group, that still does nothing but confuse things.


Also, they didn't ruin the whole 'dark side seduction' thing. You're overreacting.

Yes, I am deliberately over-reacting. I'm not that much of an EU nerd really. But this is "A KotOR II Rant" thread so I was joining in.


All they did was say that one person, one person in the whole of existence, wasn't affected like that. Hardly worth kicking up too much of a fuss over.

That's exactly why I'm making a fuss (not that it's actually worth it, it is after all just a game, albeit a pretentious one). Making him the one exception to a well grounded rule turns him into a rediculously uber fanboybait character.


Besides, when do we ever really get to know that much about Revan's personality to that extent? We hear his philosophy, we know that he was able to concoct great plans, but we never hear that he was a 'good' person, really. Just that he needed the Republic intact to fight the other Sith.

What Kreia says is that Revan never fell to the dark side. This means that he was able to corrupt other people without being corrupt himself. This makes little to no sense.

I guess really he's just a good person in Kreia's eyes. Kreia being the personification of Obsidian's Darth Revan fanboyism. Which explains why she got old so fast. Take that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sorry, but Basilisk War Droids first appeared in a comic book released in 1995 and look like this:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/2/27/BasiliskWarDroid_egtd.png

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/4d/BasiliskWarDroid.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/92/Basilisk.jpg

Canderous' description is far from the original appearance of them. Canderous' description isn't exactly at odds with the original version either.

In theory Obsidian changed them because the originals "looked stupid" but they could have just invented their own Mandalorian drop pods and not confused things. Star Wars is full of stuff that "looks a bit stupid" and its done fine for 30 years. The Basilisk War Droid is kind of stupid and dorky but it's characterful, interesting and unique at the same time.

Actually I thought the original BWD looked cooler than the one you use in KOTOR II, and that's what I imagined Canderous riding when he talked about his fateful basilisk drop. When I saw what they had in KOTOR II, I found myself thinking "That's not a Basalisk!" I guess the statement that it had been altered to fit more than one person was an attempt at a clever explanation as to why you'd be able to take companions with you on the drop, but it really felt more like a handwave. Then again, they could have added a protective shell or something. I mean, I don't recall any mention of the characters putting on Mandalorian armor for the drop, and any Mandalorian I've seen riding a Basalisk had armor. The ship was alright to get them there, but it felt like they just slapped the Basalisk War Droid name on it to make it seem cooler.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Actually I thought the original BWD looked cooler than the one you use in KOTOR II

Maybe it's because destroying a starfighter by ripping the cockpit open with robotic claws and then letting the pilot suffocate is more badass than a box with wings.


The ship was alright to get them there, but it felt like they just slapped the Basalisk War Droid name on it to make it seem cooler.

It's only there as a referance to Canderous' description of his orbital drop in the first game. My guess is that someone at Obsidian who didn't know what a Basilisk War Droid was thought that story was awesome and came up with his own mental image of Canderous story and then found the actual War Droids lame (as mental images are always better than pictures) and decieded to improve things but wasn't actually capable of making a cooler War Droid in reality.

[Tom_Violence]

Except that KotOR 2's plot is basically "oh no! Evil Jedi are causing trouble! Let's go do something else!".

I'll admit that Malak was lame but at least he made sense with what previous material tells us about the Dark Side.

He does get a little characterisation from Canderous and HK-47 but I'll admit it isn't much.

The thing is that there already was an idea of a previous group of Sith. The problem with Obsidians "True Sith" is that they are unreckonsiable with the pre-existing Sith and must therefore be a new group, that still does nothing but confuse things.

Yes, I am deliberately over-reacting. I'm not that much of an EU nerd really. But this is "A KotOR II Rant" thread so I was joining in.

That's exactly why I'm making a fuss (not that it's actually worth it, it is after all just a game, albeit a pretentious one). Making him the one exception to a well grounded rule turns him into a rediculously uber fanboybait character.

What Kreia says is that Revan never fell to the dark side. This means that he was able to corrupt other people without being corrupt himself. This makes little to no sense.

I guess really he's just a good person in Kreia's eyes. Kreia being the personification of Obsidian's Darth Revan fanboyism. Which explains why she got old so fast. Take that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat)

Heh, I guess I'm just lucky that I steer clear of anything approaching dangerous fanboyism, but I can certainly understand the sheer annoyance and pain that such things can cause. Moreover though, since you don't really hear much about Revan as I mentioned, you can pretty much fill in any of the gaps as you like. Kreia is notorious for lying basically all the way through the game, so her dialogue doesn't count for squat. If people big up Revan too, well maybe they're wrong? Whatever works for you, really.

Out of curiousity, what was the previous group of Sith thing? Is that just all the old dead blokes on Korriban etc.,or is there more to it?

[The Rose Dragon]

The Sith are a race with tentacle beards and an affinity for the Dark Side. They lived on Korriban before the Dark Jedi were drawn to the place. And they are all dead since the time of Exar Kun.

So, this true Sith horsecrap doesn't really fly well in the face of other canon evidence.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So if you "Discontinuity" KotOR 2:

Revan is no longer a Marty Sue
The Force cannot be used to commit planetary genocide
Palpatine's Jedi purge is a major achievement, not something that a bunch of canon fodder Sith who don't even have lightsabers are able to replicate.
The Sith are exactly what everyone has known them to be all along.
If Darth Revan had gone darkside, he would have conquored the galaxy using the Star Forge just as KotOR 1 says he would have, not got bored and gone on a vacation and let the empire he spent the entirity of KotOR 1 trying to reclaim collapse.
Darth Revan won the battle of Malachor V using tactics like Canderous Ordo says he did, not by using a super weapon.
Pre-dark side Malak was not the complete wimp you see a vision of in Ludo Kresh's tomb
Basilisk War Droids are actually droids
After leaving Revan's party after KotOR 1, Canderous Ordo did not act like a lovesick puppy everytime someone mentioned Darth Revan's name.
The Echani are just a human culture like the Mandalorians, not a race of white haired clones of their mothers.
At the same time we can get rid of Darth Revan's gender canonization

I jest, mostly...

[SmartAlec]

Wookiepaedia has this to say:


The existence of the "True Sith" has caused some confusion with their placement in galactic chronology. When the game was first released, the establishment of the Old Sith Empire was believed to have taken place circa 25,000 BBY. Additionally, the beginning of the True Sith's existence was fixed as being approximately "tens of thousands of years" in the past. In 2005, however, the establishment of the Old Sith Empire was retconned to have happened around 6,900 BBY, which presented a new divide in the historical placement of the two groups, and indeed in the very nature of the Sith themselves.

It has since been mentioned by VIPs on developer Obsidian Entertainment's message boards that the company in fact did not use the "25,000 BBY" date as a basis for their development of the True Sith; the order was conceived as an entirely separate geographic group from the later Sith Order of Marka Ragnos and its like, though further details have yet to be released.[source?]

More recently, it was discovered that, after the Sith King Adas died while driving the Rakata from Korriban in 27,700 BBY, the Sith species possessed the technology to relocate themselves to nearby Ziost. It is therefore possible that some Sith from this era became the "True Sith," taking up residence out in the Unknown Regions, and eventually constructing the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/True_Sith

So it's possible we're dealing with a colony of the original species, untouched by the human influence on their culture, who've discovered the Dark Side for themselves. And are really, really good at it.

One thing to bear in mind is that the Sith philosophy does have roots in Jedi philosophy; after all, it was founded by heretical early Jedi. The idea of 'True Sith' might be not just a reference to the original species, but also to a sect of Dark Side teachings that formed independent of the Jedi.

There was another thought, on the Sith Lords' titles in KOTOR2. Sion, the Lord of Pain; Nihilus, the Lord of Hunger; and Traya, the Lord of Betrayal. There was some musing as to whether these titles had some honorary or ritual significance, and perhaps they relate to this theoretical 'True Sith' sect.



Darth Revan won the battle of Malachor V using tactics like Canderous Ordo says he did, not by using a super weapon.

To be fair, I always got the impression that the 'tactics' involved here were at getting the Mandalorians to actually fight at Malachor V. I imagined a cunning series of inter-system manouvers, carefully-planned and timetabled victories to push them into places Revan wanted them to be, and then put them in a position where they'd have no choice but to fight over a planet that seems to have no actual strategic significance. And is booby-trapped. And Evil.


What Kreia says is that Revan never fell to the dark side. This means that he was able to corrupt other people without being corrupt himself.

Not quite; or, at least, this isn't quite the understanding I got from the game. I thought that Kreia's point was that Revan didn't ever fall. Instead, Revan quite deliberately chose the Dark Side after long deliberation, and walked into it with his/her eyes open. Revan still did dark things! The difference was that Revan fought the whole 'dominance of destiny' thing by always analysing his/her actions and comparing them to his/her overall strategy and vision.

Essentially, Revan tried to do what Count Dooku tried to do - walk the line and use the Dark Side for the 'greater good'. This is not a new idea in Star Wars lore And it's quite likely this would have backfired monstrously. The fun part, of course, is that it probably already did. Looking at the results of Revan's crusade - Malak's bloody rampage, the Jedi coming close to extinction thanks to the Sith Triumvirate - in a way, the Dark Side beat Revan after all.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There was another thought, on the Sith Lords' titles in KOTOR2. Sion, the Lord of Pain; Nihilus, the Lord of Hunger; and Traya, the Lord of Betrayal. There was some musing as to whether these titles had some honorary or ritual significance, and perhaps they relate to this theoretical 'True Sith' sect.

The titles of the Sith Triumvirs all make sense because they're foreshadowing Anakin Skywalker.

Betrayal: Darth Vadar killing the Jedi
Pain: The audience response to Hayden Christen's acting his wife dying and his skin being burnt off
Hunger: His desire for power

It all makes sense because Darth Vadar is Jesus in Purgatory.

[Shraik]

I will say something which few people will hate me for....

It was better then the first.
I really loved this game. Characters, gameplay, story, the abilities. It was great.

Also, the Rakata where stupid thingys that ruined the world for me that don't exist cause I say so

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, if you find the Rakatan Band in KOTOR II, you find out that apparently Rakatans have made contact with the galaxy and have made claims about their Infinite Empire, but no one believes them and they're considered nothing more than lying primitives.:smallwink:

[SolkaTruesilver]

The Force cannot be used to commit planetary genocide

What's wrong with that? Nihilus controls the Force more than anything we've ever seen on screen, and in a way much, much, much different than any force-wielder seen.



Palpatine's Jedi purge is a major achievement, not something that a bunch of canon fodder Sith who don't even have lightsabers are able to replicate.

Are you comparing the striking down of a fully-numbered Jedi Order to a war that opposed a huge number of fallen jedi to the remaining ones? The Jedi destroyed themselves. This is the point of the Jedi Civil War. They were the two sides of one same coin.

Jedi Vs Jedi is much less impressionnable than Palpatine Vs Jedi (and Palpatine never have been a Jedi..)



The Sith are exactly what everyone has known them to be all along.

What I have known of the Sith before KOTOR1 was that they were merely Dark Force users, following a philosophy of Exar Kun. And they were evil. KOTOR1 bringed something new, showing that they were a dangerous political entity. KOTOR2 shown that the Sith seen previously were.. not the original Sith. But Sith-inspired fallen members of Humanity. Which, when you think of it, is totally true. Exar Kun, Revan, Tyranus, etc... all of these were fallen member of humanity, following the teachings of the Sith. Not Sith themselves.[/quote]



If Darth Revan had gone darkside, he would have conquored the galaxy using the Star Forge just as KotOR 1 says he would have, not got bored and gone on a vacation and let the empire he spent the entirity of KotOR 1 trying to reclaim collapse.

Actually, it makes a lot more sense. It explains actually WHY Revan went farther in the Unknown Regions after winning the Mandalorian wars. What he found at Malachor V was a huge danger to the Republic, and went to discover it's source. Then he found a weapon, and wanted to unite the Galaxy to face the very treath.

But after KOTOR1, he saw that Malak had left the galaxy into such a shamble, relic of it's past self, that he went head-on against the Sith to fight them on their own territory, with his own ressources. The whole Jedi Civil War had been a waste of time and potential military ressource for him, and he left the Republic behind to recover. And.. maybe slow down the Sith.



Darth Revan won the battle of Malachor V using tactics like Canderous Ordo says he did, not by using a super weapon.


the Exile used a Super-Weapon. Revan was the Warlord, the Exile was the General.



Pre-dark side Malak was not the complete wimp you see a vision of in Ludo Kresh's tomb

Well.. he had a speech before loosing his jaw, right?



After leaving Revan's party after KotOR 1, Canderous Ordo did not act like a lovesick puppy everytime someone mentioned Darth Revan's name.

Revan was the ultimate warrior in Canderous Ordo's eyes. The ultimate representation of what a true Warrior should be. How could he simply forget that he left him behind to fight the greatest ennemies possible?



The Echani are just a human culture like the Mandalorians, not a race of white haired clones of their mothers.


the Handmaiden was human. The Echani are human. They have white skin and hair, and that's their cultural trait. Just like asian or black peoples.

[Shraik]

Well, if you find the Rakatan Band in KOTOR II, you find out that apparently Rakatans have made contact with the galaxy and have made claims about their Infinite Empire, but no one believes them and they're considered nothing more than lying primitives.:smallwink:

Where is that in the game? I wanna do that, and laugh

[Attilargh]

What's wrong with that? Nihilus controls the Force more than anything we've ever seen on screen, and in a way much, much, much different than any force-wielder seen.
My number one reason for disliking KotOR II: There's this guy who can kill a planet with a single word, whose hunger knows no bounds and whose ghost ship is on the course for Telos. His premise contains more distilled awesome than all the bad guys of the original trilogy put together, and it's all packaged into this way cool, really menacing character design.

And then he's given no proper lines and told to job his fight against the Exile in the stupidest way ever. Stars, the girl is a wound in the Force, you don't try to sip her like a Midichlorian Smoothie if your diet consists solely of the life-force of entire planets!


Also, Exile was boringer than Revan, who was cool. Maybe I have a thing for black robes and spiffy masks.

[Paragon Badger]

5. Darth Revan is now a good guy dark side user. What happened to this "dark side" that seduced and controlled you, completely perverting your original self? Giving Darth Revan good intentions would have been fine on its own because after all "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" but making him magically immune to the corrupting power of one of the primary parts of Star Wars in some kind of moralistic Godmodding just tramples over the continuity. Obsidian turned what used to be a cool character into a bad fanfic character.

The 'road to hell is paved with good intentions' in the real world is different from the 'road to hell is paved with good intentions' in Star Wars.

Real World: This is an evil act, but I believe it will do a greater good. I am sacrificial.

Star Wars: This is an evil act, but I believe it will do a greater goo- Oh no, I'm evil now. Killing babies doesn't phase me. THE EVIL FORCE COMPELLS ME TO BECOME A ONE-DIMENSIONAL KILLING MACHINE!!! I HAVE FORGOTTEN ALL MY PREVIOUS HOPES AND DREAMS. I am greedy.

Lame.


Except that KotOR 2's plot is basically "oh no! Evil Jedi are causing trouble! Let's go do something else!".

Sith had nothing to do with KOTOR II. It was all about the Exile's personal journey to get his mind straight and (accidentily) rebuild the Jedi Order.


I'll admit that Malak was lame but at least he made sense with what previous material tells us about the Dark Side.

Because no matter how lame something is, it should remain that way. :smalltongue:

Malak was uninteresting. Good guy corrupted by power, blah blah blah.

Nihilus was not so much corrupted by power but he needed it to survive. He also represents what the Exile could have been. Heck, he was barely even a living being.

Sion is Kreia's 'son', he alternates from rebellion to seeking acceptance from her. Not to mention he is in constant pain, and seeks to galvinize his misery by commiting some greater deed; hurting Kreia...or pleasing Kreia.

Traya wasn't even a 'Sith'. Even clad in those black robes, she had her own philosophy- one that we've NEVER seen in Star Wars; The Force was an evil god. And she wanted to make like Neichtze and kill it.


The thing is that there already was an idea of a previous group of Sith. The problem with Obsidians "True Sith" is that they are unreckonsiable with the pre-existing Sith and must therefore be a new group, that still does nothing but confuse things.

Perhaps it is a misnomer. I could very easily imagine the Yuuzhon Vong as the 'evil entity' that scared Revan so much that he was willing to reshape the entire galaxy to prepare for it.


That's exactly why I'm making a fuss (not that it's actually worth it, it is after all just a game, albeit a pretentious one). Making him the one exception to a well grounded rule turns him into a rediculously uber fanboybait character.

Yes, because we all want to see ANOTHER case of 'Black and White' morality.

Which of these is more interesting?

A. Revan chose to fall, so that he could win the Mandy Wars, Create the Sith Empire to replace the Republic and strengthen the galaxy as a whole. Afterall, Nobody is a good guy in war. Nobody. In the real world, anyone with Jedi Idealism would soon die or fall.

B. Revan tasted power in the wars. And it led him down a slippery slope with which he coulden't recover from until a mindwipe turned him straight.

In the real world- you sometimes have to sacrifice your morals and ethics to survive. Star Wars' adherrance to 'Black and White' morality is childish and knaive, and I find it philosophically boring.


What Kreia says is that Revan never fell to the dark side. This means that he was able to corrupt other people without being corrupt himself. This makes little to no sense.

How so?

Wouldn't you be grateful to the man who saved Republic from a genocidal race of proud warriors? Revan was a hero to his soldiers. He let some of them die, but many more were rescued. You don't even need the force to earn diehard loyalty like that.

But he was a powerful force-user as well, so he helped nudge his soldiers to seeing his side, even if they were already leaning there.

Dissenters were silenced, a la Malachor V.


I guess really he's just a good person in Kreia's eyes. Kreia being the personification of Obsidian's Darth Revan fanboyism. Which explains why she got old so fast. Take that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat)

Huh. Darth Revan had no characterization before KOTOR II. :smalltongue:

KOTOR II brought philosophy to a game (KOTOR I) and a setting (Star Wars) which sorely lacked it.


My number one reason for disliking KotOR II: There's this guy who can kill a planet with a single word, whose hunger knows no bounds and whose ghost ship is on the course for Telos. His premise contains more distilled awesome than all the bad guys of the original trilogy put together, and it's all packaged into this way cool, really menacing character design.

And then he's given no proper lines and told to job his fight against the Exile in the stupidest way ever. Stars, the girl is a wound in the Force, you don't try to sip her like a Midichlorian Smoothie if your diet consists solely of the life-force of entire planets!

His lack of dialogue is to serve the purpose of defining just how far he's detached from humanity. He's a myth, a planet-killing titan of the force.

The fight with him is very much a dethroning of Nihilus. Visas' line "He is just a man. Nothing more."

The Exile was meant to be superior to Nihilus for the sole reason that he (or canonically, she... but that makes no sense... Stupid Disciple.) could live without the force and Nihilus had to feed on it for survival.

The battle was a metaphore, really. Nihilus was powerless because he relied on the force, and the Exile could live without it. Same with Sion.

In fact, the whole game could have been done without a single fight. It could have been a book. :smalltongue:


Heh, I guess I'm just lucky that I steer clear of anything approaching dangerous fanboyism, but I can certainly understand the sheer annoyance and pain that such things can cause. Moreover though, since you don't really hear much about Revan as I mentioned, you can pretty much fill in any of the gaps as you like. Kreia is notorious for lying basically all the way through the game, so her dialogue doesn't count for squat. If people big up Revan too, well maybe they're wrong? Whatever works for you, really.

Pretty much everything she says about Revan is true. Afterall, why would she lie? Kreia does what is practical, never what is evil or good. She tells the truth when it serves her, just as she lies when it serves her.

If the game had been completed- it would have been understandable to the average gamer/philosopher in 1 or 2 playthroughs... but it wasn't.

KOTOR II was a brilliant idea. Sadly, the execution in some areas was...lacking.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What's wrong with that? Nihilus controls the Force more than anything we've ever seen on screen, and in a way much, much, much different than any force-wielder seen.

It's over the top power creep.


What I have known of the Sith before KOTOR1 was that they were merely Dark Force users, following a philosophy of Exar Kun. And they were evil. KOTOR1 bringed something new, showing that they were a dangerous political entity. KOTOR2 shown that the Sith seen previously were.. not the original Sith. But Sith-inspired fallen members of Humanity. Which, when you think of it, is totally true. Exar Kun, Revan, Tyranus, etc... all of these were fallen member of humanity, following the teachings of the Sith. Not Sith themselves.

Previous sources had already shown who the original Sith were. In fact, the KotOR games show the original Sith Tombs on Korriban. There wasn't any need to introduce another group of ancient Sith.

Exar Kun was a Dark Lord of the Sith because Marka Ragnos' (one of the original Sith Lords whose tomb appears in Jedi Academy and both KotOR games) ghost told him that he could use the title. Revan is pretty much a pretender though.


Actually, it makes a lot more sense. It explains actually WHY Revan went farther in the Unknown Regions after winning the Mandalorian wars. What he found at Malachor V was a huge danger to the Republic, and went to discover it's source. Then he found a weapon, and wanted to unite the Galaxy to face the very treath.

It really wasn't a big enough of a plot hole to need filling. Not that filling minor plot holes isn't a good thing to do in a sequel.



But after KOTOR1, he saw that Malak had left the galaxy into such a shamble, relic of it's past self, that he went head-on against the Sith to fight them on their own territory, with his own ressources. The whole Jedi Civil War had been a waste of time and potential military ressource for him, and he left the Republic behind to recover. And.. maybe slow down the Sith.

Or maybe he just realised that he was in an RPG world and therefore 1 character is better at destroying an empire than another empire is.


the Exile used a Super-Weapon. Revan was the Warlord, the Exile was the General.

On Revan's orders.


Revan was the ultimate warrior in Canderous Ordo's eyes. The ultimate representation of what a true Warrior should be. How could he simply forget that he left him behind to fight the greatest ennemies possible?

He could at least not act like such a wuss about it.


the Handmaiden was human. The Echani are human. They have white skin and hair, and that's their cultural trait. Just like asian or black peoples.

KotOR 1 was full of Echani without white hair. KotOR 2 implies that Echani have some kind of genetic trait that makes them look exactly like their mother.


The 'road to hell is paved with good intentions' in the real world is different from the 'road to hell is paved with good intentions' in Star Wars.

Real World: This is an evil act, but I believe it will do a greater good. I am sacrificial.

Star Wars: This is an evil act, but I believe it will do a greater goo- Oh no, I'm evil now. Killing babies doesn't phase me. THE EVIL FORCE COMPELLS ME TO BECOME A ONE-DIMENSIONAL KILLING MACHINE!!! I HAVE FORGOTTEN ALL MY PREVIOUS HOPES AND DREAMS. I am greedy.

Lame.

It's just the natural corrupting nature of power. If you think Star Wars is lame don't play a Star Wars game.

Don't forget that the Dark Side is also a drug reference. Darth Revan being "uncorrupted by the Dark Side" is the equivilant of a Heroine user who has a magic button on his chest that makes him stop being addicted. So Darth Revan being uncorrupt doesn't really add any realism at all.


Sith had nothing to do with KOTOR II. It was all about the Exile's personal journey to get his mind straight and (accidentily) rebuild the Jedi Order.

Then why is it called "KotOR II: The Sith Lords"?


Malak was uninteresting. Good guy corrupted by power, blah blah blah.

Malak was corrupted by his friend and would never have gone to the Dark Side if he hadn't completely trusted Revan. Now Revan has come back as a good guy and is trying to kill him. I will never claim that Malak was not lame but that still has potential as an interesting dynamic.


Perhaps it is a misnomer. I could very easily imagine the Yuuzhon Vong as the 'evil entity' that scared Revan so much that he was willing to reshape the entire galaxy to prepare for it.

Yeah, because bringing in the Yuuzang Yong will make Star Wars fans happy :smallbiggrin:


Yes, because we all want to see ANOTHER case of 'Black and White' morality.

Then you should ignore Star Wars.


A. Revan chose to fall, so that he could win the Mandy Wars, Create the Sith Empire to replace the Republic and strengthen the galaxy as a whole. Afterall, Nobody is a good guy in war. Nobody. In the real world, anyone with Jedi Idealism would soon die or fall.

B. Revan tasted power in the wars. And it led him down a slippery slope with which he coulden't recover from until a mindwipe turned him straight.

These are hardly mutually exclusive. There's nothing wrong with Revan having chosen to fall. What's wrong is Kreia's idea that he "never fell".


In the real world- you sometimes have to sacrifice your morals and ethics to survive. Star Wars' adherrance to 'Black and White' morality is childish and knaive, and I find it philosophically boring.

That's because it's an adventure story, not a philosophical parable. If you find Star Wars boring, don't play Star Wars games.


His lack of dialogue is to serve the purpose of defining just how far he's detached from humanity. He's a myth, a planet-killing titan of the force.

I actually liked him not speaking English. It was creepy.


The Exile was meant to be superior to Nihilus for the sole reason that he (or canonically, she... but that makes no sense... Stupid Disciple.) could live without the force and Nihilus had to feed on it for survival.

Except living without the Force makes no sense because the Force is created by life.


Pretty much everything she says about Revan is true. Afterall, why would she lie? Kreia does what is practical, never what is evil or good. She tells the truth when it serves her, just as she lies when it serves her.

You claim to be interested in philosophy, there's no method of distinguishing truth from lies. Kreia had an incredibly dodgy view of Revan that probably didn't exist outside of her own twisted mind.

[poleboy]

Kotor II was a bland game in many ways. Way too many areas were left half-finished, the ending was rushed and the gameplay mechanics were munchkinized for no reason. So much loot, so little to spend all my easily-earned cash on.
What I really played it for what the story and the dialogue, which in many ways felt superior to the first game. Kotor II offers offers you different views on what the Force is, or could be and what this means to people, both jedi and mundane. I frankly don't give a flying rat's ass if it's canonical or not, as long as it's interesting. Canonical is stale, and the Star Wars universe has always been a bit stale with its clearly defined borders between good and evil. I thank Obsidian for mixing the whole thing up a little, and offering some new views on things that are considered definite simply because "Lucas says so".
Don't get me wrong, I like Star Wars. What I dislike is people who clearly define everything according to a set of rules, leaving no room for discussion, and thus improvement.

[Closet_Skeleton]

simply because "Lucas says so".

It's not actually about what "Lucas says". Most of the continuity KotOR 2 sits badly with is nothing to do with George Lucas. It's more about respecting other writers in the Star Wars Expanded Universe and not trampling on their works for no reason.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying KotOR and not knowing the continuity. It's good that it can appeal to people who like continuity and those who don't.

[Tom_Violence]

If you think Star Wars is lame don't play a Star Wars game.
...
Then you should ignore Star Wars.
...
That's because it's an adventure story, not a philosophical parable. If you find Star Wars boring, don't play Star Wars games.

etc.

Poor old Star Wars, I say. Seems like Obsidian tried to actually introduce a bit of interest and depth into the franchise, but have sadly come up against the problem of "that's not what Star Wars is about". KotORII is one of the few great Star Wars things I've seen that actually had something beyond lightsabers and 'The Force' to give it weight (okay, that might be slightly hyperbolic, but still...). But apparently that's not allowed. Who says it has to be purely a simplistic adventure game, and it can't have some heavy-duty intriguing philosophy in it? Why does Star Wars have to be so childishly black and white? I honestly can't understand how people can oppose an attempt to introduce depth into something on the basis that it actually gives one things to think about it.

Its times like these that I wish some other franchise had invented lightsabers, I really do.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Where is that in the game? I wanna do that, and laugh

Most of the items you find in the game are randomized, so just look in every single container you come across.

[Semidi]

etc.

Poor old Star Wars, I say. Seems like Obsidian tried to actually introduce a bit of interest and depth into the franchise, but have sadly come up against the problem of "that's not what Star Wars is about". KotORII is one of the few great Star Wars things I've seen that actually had something beyond lightsabers and 'The Force' to give it weight (okay, that might be slightly hyperbolic, but still...). But apparently that's not allowed. Who says it has to be purely a simplistic adventure game, and it can't have some heavy-duty intriguing philosophy in it? Why does Star Wars have to be so childishly black and white? I honestly can't understand how people can oppose an attempt to introduce depth into something on the basis that it actually gives one things to think about it.

Its times like these that I wish some other franchise had invented lightsabers, I really do.


This I can agree with, but I think KOTOR2 didn't go deep enough with it--probably because it was rushed. I felt that KOTOR1 was a better game, but KOTOR2 had the potential to be Planescape: Torment... IN SPAAAACE

[SolkaTruesilver]

This I can agree with, but I think KOTOR2 didn't go deep enough with it--probably because it was rushed. I felt that KOTOR1 was a better game, but KOTOR2 had the potential to be Planescape: Torment... IN SPAAAACE

Humm.. If I remember, it was Lucasart who ordered the game to be shipped ASAP.

Perhaps they didn'T liked the idea of.. subjectivity. They wanted to keep the happy-goody-no-gray-permissible-black-and-white-universe as pure as possible.

I had a GM who was a jerk about alignement in D&D. He said that if we were "evil", but trusted someone or helped other group members, or did not tried to always beat each other at every opportunities, we would be out of alignement.

I think Lucasart wants the same about Dark Side/Light Side. "If you used the Dark Side, forever you have to be a jackass eating babies. Period. No, not even to save the universe it's allowed, you're still a jerk. I AM NOT LISTENING!"

[Jibar]

Humm.. If I remember, it was Lucasart who ordered the game to be shipped ASAP.

Perhaps they didn'T liked the idea of.. subjectivity. They wanted to keep the happy-goody-no-gray-permissible-black-and-white-universe as pure as possible.

Actually, it was because we foolish non-Jedi had to invent the holiday known as Christmas, Scourge of Game Development.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Actually, it was because we foolish non-Jedi had to invent the holiday known as Christmas, Scourge of Game Development.

So, they made a sequel to a game that took more than a year to develop, and they forced it's publishing after 6 months before CHRISTMAS WAS COMING?

They didn't expected to have a christmas the other year?

[Closet_Skeleton]

"If you used the Dark Side, forever you have to be a jackass eating babies. Period.

Apart from the whole, redemption thing, that's in both KotOR 1 (but nobody gets redeemed in KotOR 2, the evil people all have to die, how does that count as a more mature and deep outlook?) and the Original Trillogy (the only reason it isn't in the prequel trillogy is of course because they exist just to set up the redemption in the original).


So, they made a sequel to a game that took more than a year to develop, and they forced it's publishing after 6 months before CHRISTMAS WAS COMING?

They didn't expected to have a christmas the other year?

What did Lucas Arts care? It was Obsidian's fault for not realising it was a shameless cash in. Obsidian must have known what their development cycle was before they decieded to waste development time on Peragus, the lame easily removable part with no lightsaber and is followed directly by an equally lame easily removable part without lightsabers instead of making the ending.

Honestly ask your self which you would prefer, a decent ending or having to traul through Peragus? I note that there's a mod that lets you skip Peragus and a mod that's trying to add in a decent ending.

Obsidian was right to try and make the most of KotOR 2 despite it being a shameless cash in but their priorities ended up failing them.

There's probably a good reason why Bioware didn't make KotOR 2 and now refuse to make games using big licenses.

[Jibar]

So, they made a sequel to a game that took more than a year to develop, and they forced it's publishing after 6 months before CHRISTMAS WAS COMING?

They didn't expected to have a christmas the other year?

LucasArts don't care. They want Christmas money, they'll have Christmas money godflabbit.
Now, however, you can understand just why so much stuff was cut.
Even the stuff that was almost complete, or was just a bonus conversation or the like. They literally did not have the time.

Christmas is horrible for this. Spring and Summer releases, you've got a whole season to make use of it. The only part you can't use is the last few weaks. Christmas is a fixed date though, and if you don't have it out within a week or two of the holiday, you fail.

[Closet_Skeleton]

This is a reasonable interesting and relevant article:

http://www.starwars.com/gaming/videogames/news/f20041119/index.html

By the way, I didn't actually hate KotOR 2, I'm just bored and have time to waste looking at its problems. KotOR 2 had better female characters for example but in the end fails due to having no Jolee Bindo.

[SolkaTruesilver]

This is a reasonable interesting and relevant article:

http://www.starwars.com/gaming/videogames/news/f20041119/index.html

By the way, I didn't actually hate KotOR 2, I'm just bored and have time to waste looking at its problems. KotOR 2 had better female characters for example but in the end fails due to having no Jolee Bindo.

I though it redeemed itself by having HKs?

[Closet_Skeleton]

I though it redeemed itself by having HKs?

But KotOR 1 had HK 47 as well and HK 50 just dilutes HK 47's awesomeness, which even Obsidian is able to admit and try to use it as a minor plot point.

[SolkaTruesilver]

But KotOR 1 had HK 47 as well and HK 50 just dilutes HK 47's awesomeness, which even Obsidian is able to admit and try to use it as a minor plot point.

Actually, the 50s just underline how more awesome 47 is, by comparison.

Well, the HK50 plot point was supposed to be a major subplot, but since Lucasart wanted to ship for christmas..


What did Lucas Arts care? It was Obsidian's fault for not realising it was a shameless cash in. Obsidian must have known what their development cycle was before they decieded to waste development time on Peragus, the lame easily removable part with no lightsaber and is followed directly by an equally lame easily removable part without lightsabers instead of making the ending.

Ever played Fallout? or Fallout 2? What made these games memorable were the intrigue, the subplots, the little cookies here and there. Obsidian clearly wanted to make something on the like for KOTOR2, but Lucasart wanted to cash in.

if Obsidian clearly had had the time to finish the game as they wanted, we might by talking about a KOTOR3 right now. But no, instead, we ended up with a game with so much potential unrealised. I blame Lucasart who chosed the quick buck instead of the lasting one.

Blizzard never fools around. When the game isn'T finished, it doesn't ship out. Period. No wonder Lucasart has such a bad reputation about Star Wars games.

[SmartAlec]

But KotOR 1 had HK 47 as well and HK 50 just dilutes HK 47's awesomeness, which even Obsidian is able to admit and try to use it as a minor plot point.

Having seen some of the footage from the HK-50 factory level, I can assure you that the complete quest adds immensely to HK-47's awesomeness.

[LurkerInPlayground]

This is a reasonable interesting and relevant article:

http://www.starwars.com/gaming/videogames/news/f20041119/index.html

By the way, I didn't actually hate KotOR 2, I'm just bored and have time to waste looking at its problems. KotOR 2 had better female characters for example but in the end fails due to having no Jolee Bindo.
Isn't Kreia a female version of Jolee with more bitterness and ambition?

I'd say that the key difference is that Jolee didn't try to kill the Force, and thereby didn't have to do so much lying or manipulation.

Both pretty much talk down to you. It's endearing in Jolee's case because you know he didn't possess ulterior motives.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All right. I just finished reading the 5th Chapter of Dxun, in Jedi Jesus's story.

My hat to the writers. They were.. just too good. I know why Lucasart wanted to screw their game, it's because they knew they never could manage to rid themselves of such a team if they had wanted to.

The fan would never have permitted.

Goto's story is.. marvelous..

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've always wondered why fanfic is such a popular thing. It just seems sort of masturbatory to me.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I've always wondered why fanfic is such a popular thing. It just seems sort of masturbatory to me.

What fanfic are you talking about?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

All of it. If you want to write, come up with something original, instead of leeching off the creativity of others.

[Trazoi]

What did Lucas Arts care? It was Obsidian's fault for not realising it was a shameless cash in. Obsidian must have known what their development cycle was before they decieded to waste development time on Peragus, the lame easily removable part with no lightsaber and is followed directly by an equally lame easily removable part without lightsabers instead of making the ending.
I personally split the blame between Obsidian and LucasArts, but with the majority share in LucasArt's court.

Obsidian should have known better than to sign off on such as ridiculously short development time for an RPG (wasn't it just over a year?). That might have been enough time for a mediocre cash-in, but not for something of the scale they were attempting. It's not surprising that they had to axe entire planets halfway through, although it was clear from the unfinished nature of the final game that wasn't enough.

However I still lump the majority of the blame on Lucasarts. They are the publisher, they're the ones with the external QA department, and they're the ones who own the Star Wars I.P. Their QA department must have known about the terribly unfinished ending, but someone forced it to ship regardless in order to grab some of the Christmas sales but at the expense of their reputation for quality.

I find the real pity is that KoTOR II really did in my view have the potential to be a truly awesome RPG with about six months more time to finish and polish. If that had happened, everyone would have been gushing over the awesomeness of the game and we'd be eagerly awaiting KoTOR III to continue the trend. Instead the KoTOR II we got was just so-so, and I couldn't care less about whether there's a KoTOR III in the works.

[SolkaTruesilver]

All of it. If you want to write, come up with something original, instead of leeching off the creativity of others.

You are talking about Jedi Jesus's walktrough?

He does not try to pass it as a fanfic. He is simply showing us all the little pieces of the game that someone might have missed (as I did). A complete walktrough.

Not to forget that he shows us the cut contents

[poleboy]

This I can agree with, but I think KOTOR2 didn't go deep enough with it--probably because it was rushed. I felt that KOTOR1 was a better game, but KOTOR2 had the potential to be Planescape: Torment... IN SPAAAACE

I completely agree. The first game was more fun gameplay-wise, while the second one had the potential to be an awesome piece of storytelling that sorta fell short of that. Even so, I still think it's great for what remains of said story... the greater part. Okay, we were cheated out of the HK-47 factory and god knows what else... but most of the cut content was side missions involving other people than the main players of the story. Would I have loved to play them? Of course. Does the story work without them? Sure it does. And I think that's what's important.

[Cristo Meyers]

The story might work without those side quests, but I still think it suffers, especially at the ending where we're left with plot holes. Yeah, they're minor (it doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out what's going on with Bao-Dur), but they still stand out.

I think the original KoTOR had better characters: Jolee, Mission, HK, but the second had a much better storyline. It's too bad that so much of it had to be cut.

side note: Who is that in Closet Skeleton's avatar? The pic looks familiar and it's driving me crazy that I can't place it...

[Jibar]

Mission,

*slap*

Mission Vao was never in any way whatsoever a better character than anything.

[Cristo Meyers]

*slap*

Mission Vao was never in any way whatsoever a better character than anything.

*ahem*

Killing her was probably the most satisfying character death I've had in a long time.

That alone makes her worth it.

[Attilargh]

*slap*

Mission Vao was never in any way whatsoever a better character than anything.
She did a much better job at being the comic relief character than Jar-Jar, and also handled the Stock Orphan role better than Anakin. Still, everyone else in the party were so much more fun that the cute-but-whiny Twi'Lek got left by the wayside.

As far as protagonists go, I liked Revan much more than Exile, thanks to one being the guy who lead the Republic to victory over the Mandalorians, the Sith to almost-victory over the Republic and finally the Republic tro victory over the Sith, and the other being a girl who activated the weapon of mass destruction and was dragged around by the nose by an evil granny who had the words "I Am Secretly Evil" stamped on her evil face. One also had some snazzy robes.

[Blayze]

*slap*

Mission Vao was never in any way whatsoever a better character than anything.

Jar Jar Binks.

[SmartAlec]

In the words of the characters of Spaced:

"What about the Ewoks, Tim?! They were rubbish!"

"Jar-Jar Binks makes the Ewoks look like... f'ing Shaft!"

Pretty sure he has a similar effect on Mission.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You are talking about Jedi Jesus's walktrough?

He does not try to pass it as a fanfic. He is simply showing us all the little pieces of the game that someone might have missed (as I did). A complete walktrough.

Not to forget that he shows us the cut contents

Oh. I didn't know it was a walkthrough. Forgive me.:smallfrown:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

side note: Who is that in Closet Skeleton's avatar? The pic looks familiar and it's driving me crazy that I can't place it...

I believe it's Karel the Sword Demon, a character from the GBA game, Fire Emblem.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I believe it's Karel the Sword Demon, a character from the GBA game, Fire Emblem.

Yeah... Pity I don't give out biscuits.


She did a much better job at being the comic relief character than Jar-Jar, and also handled the Stock Orphan role better than Anakin. Still, everyone else in the party were so much more fun that the cute-but-whiny Twi'Lek got left by the wayside.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but Mission was far too "American" for me to like.


Isn't Kreia a female version of Jolee with more bitterness and ambition?

I'd say that the key difference is that Jolee didn't try to kill the Force, and thereby didn't have to do so much lying or manipulation.

Both pretty much talk down to you. It's endearing in Jolee's case because you know he didn't possess ulterior motives.

I think that in the end Jolee was wiser, but this may just be because Kreia being wrong about everything is the only way I can justify KotOR II's story and save Darth Revan from Mary Suedom.

Jolee Bindo fell in love and experianced war, while Kreia merely stayed at home in the archives thinking too much. Despite being an old woman, Kreia acts like a child in many ways. She refuses to accept that her "perfect student" Revan might have been wrong and she doesn't like the idea of the force controlling her. This may be a bit of senility creeping in. Jolee Bindo on the other hand accepts that the force appears to sometimes have a sense of humour and tries to make the most of things. Kreia is selfish and wants to force her world view on things while Jolee Bindo merely observes and Kreia often reprimands the exile while Jolee merely offers advice.

Both Jolee and Kreia decieded that the Jedi Order was restricted and short sighted and both had hope for alternatives. However Jolee's hope was that people might be able to live in the world and experiance love and the force without turning to the dark side while Kreia's hope was that their might be a way of living unlike anything that had come before. Jolee learnt to live with the world while Kreia rebelled against it.

[Muz]

Jolee learnt to live with the world while Kreia rebelled against it.

Not to imply agreement or disagreement with the rest of your points, but didn't Jolee spend 20 or so years as a hermit in the Kashyyyk shadowlands? That's not exactly the epitome of learning to live with the world. :smallsmile:

[LurkerInPlayground]

Closet Skeleton
You seem to be firmly planted on the conventional stance morality for Star Wars canon. (The one I find to be boring.)

- You could claim that Kreia is "living in denial," yet I think this was pretty much her view on the rest of the Jedi and Sith. That is, they're the ones living in denial. Ultimately, any discussion about "rebelling against the natural law" is moot.

There is no real conflict between "free will" and "fate" as many people assume and most of the conflict is self-constructed anyway. Kreia simply decides that what materially passes for "choice" is severely affected by a bunch of immature fanatics with too much power.

-Kreia is hardly a shut-in historian. Atton points out she had some hard living. And it is evident that she fought in the Mandalorian Wars, mothered a child with an Echani general (scandalous), was blamed for Revan's fall, got cast out of the Jedi Order, went Sith for a bit, got kicked out of that club and generally grew bitter.

Basically, she seems like the more extreme version of Jolee's line about the "Jedi leaving him" as opposed to him leaving the Jedi. She just gets burned more. I can picture Jolee in much the same position and getting angry enough to actually do something. In either case, their experiences simply deviated from the mainline too much for them to ever be anything than outsiders.

-Kreia, bitter and angry crone though she is, evidently takes pride in all her students and guards them rather jealously. Revan and Exile alike. And ultimately, this is her only lasting legacy. This is why she's more than a little defensive about Revan. Canonically, she trained better Jedi than the rest of her order. And she's not unaware of her flaws and scandals, but I feel she's more than willing to take a stance on Revan's actions. She's not stupid or incapable of love in either case.

-Jollee, Kreia, Revan and the Exile are responsible Force users, and this surpasses any distinction of "Light versus Dark" or "Jedi versus Sith." The Sith Lords of KOTOR2 are ultimately shown to be weak and overly-dependent on the Force. The Jedi are dogmatic, paranoid and indecisive (well-intentioned though they may be). Kreia believes there to be a evil that exists across the borders of either affiliation, and that there is also a "higher" morality that only gets sidetracked by the false distinction of "Jedi versus Sith." The Sith and Jedi of the game are irrelevant. Their shadow war is ultimately nihilistic and futile. The Jedi really aren't helping anybody and the Sith have no meaningful rebellion anyway.

Kreia's objection here is that there are no good Sith or Jedi around. What passes for Sith or Jedi are pretty anemic. Revan at least had motivation and this was more important than whether she was a Sith.

[Mechsae]

*ahem*

Killing her was probably the most satisfying character death I've had in a long time.

That alone makes her worth it.

This made me laugh, and rather loudly I might add.

I'd go into how I personally choose to play the game, but that'd take up a few paragraphs. I'll just summarize with bullet points:


I usually end up Light Side since I don't have fun being the kind of rotter they want you to be to be "hard core" dark side
I can play a "neutral" Jedi, but I end up swinging a bit to the light side
I normally choose Jedi Consular and end up spamming Force Lightning and Force heal for the tougher fights

Having said that I really fell that KOTOR I had the better story yet KOTOR II had better depth to it with the options among characters and questioning how you use the force and why your doing what you're doing. I actually thought Kreia was a nice touch, always questioning you when you go to an extreme and the answers she's looking for (the ones that increase your influence with her) swing you to the dark side.

Honestly it wasn't untill my third or so play through of KOTOR II that I started realizing material had been left out, that the game was unfinished. Which is a great shame because the game had a chance to offer so much more than the original did (sans story).

[tyckspoon]

I usually end up Light Side
...
spamming Force Lightning


Force Wave works too, you know. Plus stunning and you don't have to pay the penalty for using a Dark Side power.

[LurkerInPlayground]

On the Topic of HK-47 and the HK-50
From what I've seen of the playthrough synopsis of the game, HK-47's awesomeness isn't diluted by the HK-50's. It's actually enhanced.

HK-47 is originally a shallow, if humorous character. But he actually grows in his fight against the HK-50's and develops his own personal sense of morality, such as it may be.

The HK-50's are superior to HK-47 in every way, but he beats them using intellect and experience. The HK-50's simply kill and destroy without purpose and mock HK-47's obsolescence.

What HK-47 comes to realize is how inherently purposeless it is to simply subsist as a machine. Just a sum of your parts. The HK-50's force him to justify his existence. Ultimately his distinction is that he has finesse and that what he did was an art. He triumphs, not merely because of his brutality, but because he is capable of learning and thinking independently. And this, above all else, allows him to triumph over his "superior models," who are sorely lacking a sense of history and understanding of the wider universe.

His experience as an assassin allowed him to cultivate a sense of irony. This is the catalyst for his growth. Ultimately, what he did, he did merely as a tool for the foolish ambitions of "meatbags." When he reprograms the HK-51's he decides he will stop being a tool, and begin acting independently as autonomous creature. He becomes a leader.

[Cristo Meyers]

I believe it's Karel the Sword Demon, a character from the GBA game, Fire Emblem.

Thank you. That's been driving me crazy for days.

[Paragon Badger]

........What makes Mission Vao american?

Also, I fully support Obsidian going against the norm that the force is a black and white and you're either good or evil.

This isn't all that unusual, even- since Lucas' utterly abysmal and anvilicious excuse for writing pretty much turned Anakin's concept of 'Doing evil for the sake of good.' into a big old wad of 'Durr. I'm too stupid to know right from wrong.'

Really, 'doing evil for the sake of good- and never losing your purpose.' for Revan isn't so far a stretch. He just 18 Int. Anakin, by comparison, had 6. And that's being generous. Those terrible screenwriting modifiers add up. Not to mention the horrid acting.

Are you seriously saying that the Star Wars universe shoulden't evolve, grow, or change after 30 years of its introduction?

The originals are classics, yes- but you don't try to pull the same stunt 3 more times. Come on, Lucas- give us something new.

[Om]

This thread has gotten me to load up the 'ol Sith Lords again. What a great game


........What makes Mission Vao american?Her accent. It is extremely annoying to find exotic characters in exotic galaxies sounding as if they just stepped off the prairie

I did like Mission, despite the accent, however. Her role in the dark side end game was one of my more disturbing gaming experiences


Both Jolee and Kreia decieded that the Jedi Order was restricted and short sighted and both had hope for alternatives. However Jolee's hope was that people might be able to live in the world and experiance love and the force without turning to the dark side while Kreia's hope was that their might be a way of living unlike anything that had come before. Jolee learnt to live with the world while Kreia rebelled against it.Well... yeah. Jolee is Jedi and Kreia is Sith

[Trazoi]

Her accent. It is extremely annoying to find exotic characters in exotic galaxies sounding as if they just stepped off the prairie
For me, it was the player avatar's accent that bugged me the most, because it was quite strongly American. You only heard it during combat, but it really got on my nerves because it wasn't the voice I wanted to link up to my character (the female voice was the worst offender of the two, from what I remember).

Mission Vao didn't annoy me nearly as much, because that character wasn't "me".

[Closet_Skeleton]

Not to imply agreement or disagreement with the rest of your points, but didn't Jolee spend 20 or so years as a hermit in the Kashyyyk shadowlands? That's not exactly the epitome of learning to live with the world. :smallsmile:

He crash landed and had no way to escape apart from stealing a Czerka ship.


........What makes Mission Vao american?

The annoying accent. It might be an annoying Canadian accent or whatever but that isn't what immediately comes to mind.


The HK-50's are superior to HK-47 in every way, but he beats them using intellect and experience. The HK-50's simply kill and destroy without purpose and mock HK-47's obsolescence./QUOTE]

Except they aren't, because he's more experianced and wasn't factory made.

[QUOTE=Paragon Badger;4247642]Really, 'doing evil for the sake of good- and never losing your purpose.' for Revan isn't so far a stretch. He just 18 Int.

How does intelligence make you less corruptable? That makes no sense what so ever.


Are you seriously saying that the Star Wars universe shoulden't evolve, grow, or change after 30 years of its introduction?

I'm saying that it should remain consistant. Consistancy can easily make or break a story.


- You could claim that Kreia is "living in denial," yet I think this was pretty much her view on the rest of the Jedi and Sith. That is, they're the ones living in denial. Ultimately, any discussion about "rebelling against the natural law" is moot.

Kreia does indeed see that the Jedi and Sith are "living in denial", but saying that everyone else is in denial and that you're right is incredibly childish. The Jedi Masters fail to understand Kreia but Zez-Hai Ell is a lot more ready to accept that he might be wrong than Kreia ever is. Kreia is right about Vrook Lamar but he isn't entirely an idiot either.


There is no real conflict between "free will" and "fate" as many people assume and most of the conflict is self-constructed anyway.

Kreia does think that there's a conflict between free will and fate. She specifically states that she hates "that the force seems to have a will" and then says that the Exile "made a choice to live without the force". So if you really think that there's no real conflict between fate and free will then you're disagreeing with Kreia.


-Kreia is hardly a shut-in historian. Atton points out she had some hard living. And it is evident that she fought in the Mandalorian Wars, mothered a child with an Echani general (scandalous), was blamed for Revan's fall, got cast out of the Jedi Order, went Sith for a bit, got kicked out of that club and generally grew bitter.

There's no direct evidence that she is Handmaiden's mother or fought in the War (she could easily have been exiled before the war). However she does say that Atris is almost exactly the same as her. Atris was a shut in historian who didn't go to war but secretly wanted to and Kreia says that she's similar to that. Her hard living is probably from after her exile.


-Kreia, bitter and angry crone though she is, evidently takes pride in all her students and guards them rather jealously.

Which makes her probably wrong about them. She is far from an unbiased view of Revan.


-Jollee, Kreia, Revan and the Exile are responsible Force users, and this surpasses any distinction of "Light versus Dark" or "Jedi versus Sith."

Kreia is not a responsible force user. Healing Han-harr is not a responsible act.
Revan and the Exile's actions up to the player and therefore they don't have to be responsible at all. Kreia surpasses light vs dark only because she hates both sides of the force.


Kreia simply decides that what materially passes for "choice" is severely affected by a bunch of immature fanatics with too much power.

This is just Kreia's opinion, it doesn't make her right.


Kreia believes there to be a evil that exists across the borders of either affiliation, and that there is also a "higher" morality that only gets sidetracked by the false distinction of "Jedi versus Sith."

Kreia hardly acts out of belief in a higher morality. Kreia doesn't do anything morally good in the whole of KotOR 2.


Their shadow war is ultimately nihilistic and futile. The Jedi really aren't helping anybody and the Sith have no meaningful rebellion anyway.

It's a war, what do you expect? The Jedi would be helping people if they weren't busy fighting or hiding from the Sith. The standard Jedi acts you get to see in KotOR 1 on Dantooine are quite helpful.


Kreia's objection here is that there are no good Sith or Jedi around.

Kreia thinks the Jedi and Sith are both wrong, but never says that there's any moralistic good in her approach. Finding out that there are no good Sith is pretty much a no brainer and the Jedi order are pretty corrupt in the Prequel Trillogy as well.

One problem with KotOR 2 is that the whole point of a "Knights of the Old Republic" game is that Jedi and Sith are commonplace, so having a Jedi Purge and very few Sith is kind of against the point.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Really, I don't see the vaunted fate-versus-free will struggle here. I can see the flavor, certainly, just not any meaningful conflict in the way most people see it. You see Kreia say something vaguely themed in that direction and most people automatically assume that she's wrong for "rebelling against the way the world works."

It does not have to be her fate to be affected by the way the others use Force or power. And most people object to her on the basis that it's her fate to be subjected to this, even though she has obvious material choices that she is prevented from acting upon. Anybody that claims that it is against "the natural order" are simply speaking dogmatically. (If Sith are unnatural, then why does their existence seem so perennial?) Jedi are essentially speaking from a position of false authority on that matter.

Indeed, you could argue that the Jedi "do some good" in the first, but the first and second essentially announce that the order is in decline. That Jedi are impotent. It doesn't really help when Dantooine is razed by the Sith. In either case, the Jedi avoided making a clear stance, leading to the Civil War. Kreia sees the Order's first test in eons and it is found wanting. If the Order had taken a more active stance, would so many Jedi have fallen?

Indeed, it is implied, through Bastila namely, that the Jedi Order have some juvenile ideas about "self control." The reason so many Jedi fall is because they are actively denying their emotions. Trying to excise them. Practicing spiritual castration is not enlightenment. The younger Jedi had such low emotional IQ's that they were ill-equipped for a "brush with the Dark Side." And the Council was not present when they needed them the most.

And you are undermining your point about Kreia being shut-in, she wasn't for very long. And you are more sparing of the other Jedi for not being "shut-in" at all times, even when a fair majority admit that the Light Side Exile was never really wrong. Even if we presume she's not some sort of Echani Jedi that participated in the Mandy wars, she was no more shut-in than Jolee was.

Of course, Kreia never explicitly outlines her morality. But she has one. She has her own little list of commandments and rules that she expects everybody else to live up to. She gets more than a little crabby about it. Why else would she be harping on people and physically making a point whenever possible? You don't have to be all sunshine and puppies to believe that there is a "good." Hers tends to fall outside of the accepted definitions of "Light" and "Dark." Kreia simply has the self-determination to make it for herself. It makes her a great antagonist. Kreia never objects specifically to being a Jedi or Sith. It's the execution of the role that bothers her. (Though you can't really play a Dark Side Exile as anything too sophisticated).

Jolee recognizes the same irony: that the tired "Light and Dark" see-saw is a misleading theoretical construct. It tends to breed cookie-cutter Sith and Jedi, rather than people with any subtlety or nuance. Anyway, I still see Kreia as a spiritual successor to Jolee, played to a more plot-central effect.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Really, I don't see the vaunted fate-versus-free will struggle here. I can see the flavor, certainly, just not any meaningful conflict in the way most people see it.

Then what is the point of her wanting to destroy the force? That is what she seems to want.


You see Kreia say something vaguely themed in that direction and most people automatically assume that she's wrong for "rebelling against the way the world works."

Kreia thinks that she's right for rebelling against how the world works. She may even be right but she's stuck in a rebellious phase. Whether or not she's right and why she holds her beliefs are two differant things.


Jedi are essentially speaking from a position of false authority on that matter.

Their authority is as correct as anyone else's.


Indeed, you could argue that the Jedi "do some good" in the first, but the first and second essentially announce that the order is in decline.

Yet the Jedi Order survives for just under another 4000 years. Which is why KotOR 2 retreading the prequel trillogy on some points a bit annoying.


That Jedi are impotent.

They keep saving the Republic and that's all they've really ever been asked to accomplish. One could argue that this is due to military might rather than philosophy but they are hardly useless. They may be impotent in some ways but so is everyone else on the grand scale.



Indeed, it is implied, through Bastila namely, that the Jedi Order have some juvenile ideas about "self control."

Just because Bastila is a stuck up brat doesn't mean that the Jedi's teachings are inherently juvenile, they just need real world experiances to be understood and used propery.


Practicing spiritual castration is not enlightenment.

If you know what Enlightenment is why aren't you in Nirvana yet? :smallyuk:

The Jedi's self-denial isn't supposed to be "spiritual castration", it's supposed to be acting dispassionately.


And you are undermining your point about Kreia being shut-in, she wasn't for very long.

She was for her training as a youth until her exile, which could easily have been 70 years.


And you are more sparing of the other Jedi for not being "shut-in" at all times, even when a fair majority admit that the Light Side Exile was never really wrong.

When I played a Light Side Exile Kreia thought I was wrong. Most Jedi are "shut-in", being Monks and all. I was only calling Kreia a shut when compared to Atris and Jolee Bindo.


Even if we presume she's not some sort of Echani Jedi that participated in the Mandy wars, she was no more shut-in than Jolee was.

She was a Jedi Librarian for many years, Jolee Bindo was a smuggler and a soldier before being a hermit on an incredibly savage area of Kashyk. It doesn't matter even if Obsidian Entertainment intended her to be Aren Kae if it isn't stated in the game's text and is still open to being overuled by future works.


She has her own little list of commandments and rules that she expects everybody else to live up to.

That she wants the Exile to live up to. She seems to consider everyone else a forgone conclusion and not worth teaching anything.


Why else would she be harping on people and physically making a point whenever possible?

To teach the Exile. That's all she does in the whole game until she turns into an antagonist and even then she may still be trying to teach him. Kreia says some things that encourage the Exile to be good (and some that do the opposite) but she has no sympathy. When she tells the Exile to think about whether his actions really help people, she just wants the Exile to become less naive, not really to help anyone.


You don't have to be all sunshine and puppies to believe that there is a "good."

True, Vrook Lamar probably has the highest ideals of goodness in the series and he's even more yelly than Kreia. However going around manipulating everyone for your own agenda makes you at least slightly evil and is a lot more substantial as a judge of character than simply being cranky.

Believing in a higher good doesn't make you good. Trickle down economics believes in a higher good but in the end it's just greed hidden by BS and self delusion.


Anyway, I still see Kreia as a spiritual successor to Jolee, played to a more plot-central effect.

But they're still differant in many ways. Kreia takes the "neutral consular" position from Jolee but is really a completely differant character. Jolee accepts how his life has turned out while Kreia is bitter and probably regretful (as imputable from her claimed simularities to Atris).

[LurkerInPlayground]

Okay, I'm not even sure what I'm arguing anymore, so I give up.

I probably should have just stuck to the obvious:
You hate Kreia and any comparison to Jolee. Most the comparisons are emotional anyway (but then again, most evaluations of the aesthetics are anyway).

I more or less enjoyed her character. I don't argue that she's the an obvious antagonist and villain, or that what she does is entirely excusable, but I found her more easily sympathizeable than the vast majority of your usual "Star Wars" ensemble of villains.

I don't even really feel that Revan was turned into a Mary Sue or that Kreia was somehow responsible for it. And if we want to take that position, then Revan was a "Mary Sue" long before KOTOR2 rolled around, having been the ultimate Sith strategic genius, a buttload of charisma and who still Had Some Good In Him. Actually, this makes sense, because Revan is supposed to be the player's character.

I'll indulge *one* parting shot. Just one. I maintain that Enlightenment, with a capital "E," depends on who defines it. (i.e. scientific rationalism, believe in Jesus, be mindful, etc.) And I really think Buddhist Enlightenment has a largely exaggerated reputation. In any case, I was obviously expressing an opinion that excising emotion is really a dumb idea, as you never really destroy an emotion so much as you learn to control them.