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purplearcanist
2008-04-13, 02:40 PM
Ok. Between a level 20 wizard and level 20 fighter, it is obvious who would win.

What about a level 20 wizard that casts only spells that deal damage versus a level 20 fighter.

FinalJustice
2008-04-13, 02:46 PM
well, it depends, if the wizard can cast only spells that deals damage, he may be toast, but, if he is allowed to buff himself too, the fighter doesn't stand a chance. Splited Avasculate drops the fighter to 1/4 of his HP, than some orbs and he is done with.

bugsysservant
2008-04-13, 03:07 PM
I say fighter. A well built fighter with correctly chosen race, feats, and maybe +1 LA can wipe the floor with a wizard. He just has to win initiative (not all that hard since the wizard is denied spells that boost his) and the wizard dies.

Thinker
2008-04-13, 03:19 PM
I say fighter. A well built fighter with correctly chosen race, feats, and maybe +1 LA can wipe the floor with a wizard. He just has to win initiative (not all that hard since the wizard is denied spells that boost his) and the wizard dies.

Unless the wizard is focusing on rays, in which case it would be a great idea to have a very high dexterity and maybe even improved initiative.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 03:22 PM
I say fighter. A well built fighter with correctly chosen race, feats, and maybe +1 LA can wipe the floor with a wizard. He just has to win initiative (not all that hard since the wizard is denied spells that boost his) and the wizard dies.

A Wizard could still be a Gray Elf, with a Hummingbird Familiar the races sub level, improved init, a belt of battle, aggressive trait for 16 + Dex Init.

Kyalid
2008-04-13, 03:29 PM
Even with maxed HP a wizard of lvl 20 will be at 4*20+4*20=160
A well-built fighter (example: power attack, improved bullrush, shocktrooper, leap attack, improved critical) can deal these 160dmg quite quickly.
By charging and using shock Trooper you can deal 60Dmg just by using Power Attack, with Two-Weapon-Pounce it should be about 80Dmg without scoring a crit what should be quite easy.
If you win the Initiative, you should wipe the floor with the mage.

Signmaker
2008-04-13, 03:33 PM
Even with maxed HP a wizard of lvl 20 will be at 4*20+4*20=160
A well-built fighter (example: power attack, improved bullrush, shocktrooper, leap attack, improved critical) can deal these 160dmg quite quickly.
By charging and using shock Trooper you can deal 60Dmg just by using Power Attack, with Two-Weapon-Pounce it should be about 80Dmg without scoring a crit what should be quite easy.
If you win the Initiative, you should wipe the floor with the mage.

And if the Wizard has Elusive Target?
Just saying, it would be preferable if both sides had multiple styles from which we could devise situations. For example, a Cragtop-Style fighter (Not necessarily the PrC) would be sheer hell to an Evocist.

weenie
2008-04-13, 03:42 PM
Can the mage take prestige classes? If that is possible, a Quickened Twined Energy Substitued(Sonic) Energy Admixed(Sonic) Maximised, Empowered Orb of Fire, followed by a non Quickened one would deal 1140 sonic damage on average, while requiring only a touch attack to hit and allowing no spell resistance.

Hario
2008-04-13, 03:55 PM
A Fighter with a Ring of antimagic field has the wizard toast, no damage and no disjunction or dispel magic Blaster wizard is toast unless he's got some ring of disjunction.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-13, 04:04 PM
A Fighter with a Ring of antimagic field has the wizard toast, no damage and no disjunction or dispel magic Blaster wizard is toast unless he's got some ring of disjunction.

Or the orb line, which can be fired outside of field and still effect things inside. I think in this case I think the best build would be based of something like a pixie. Jack up Dex and initiative, hope to go first, then fly up past the fighters range and cast greater invisibility(SLA), then pepper him with orbs. If the fighter starts to get items of see invisibility though, then we start to get into the realm of why the fighter has just as much, if not more versatility in terms of magic.

Chronos
2008-04-13, 04:05 PM
A Wizard could still be a Gray Elf, with a Hummingbird Familiar the races sub level, improved init, a belt of battle, aggressive trait for 16 + Dex Init.And a fighter could have most of that, too. The fighter, if he's built well, will probably also have equipment that gives him a fair bit of energy resistance.

Damionte
2008-04-13, 04:18 PM
Even at level 1 the wizard still wins this.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-13, 04:19 PM
A fighter with 30 Con and max HP at each level has 400 HP.

Cindy (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=5890) here is level 18 (and I can't be bothered to add in the extra 2 levels at the moment). She uses an Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substituted (cold), Piercing Cold, Fell Draining, Invisible, Twinned, Energy Admixed (cold), Orb of Fire - 2(180 + 15d6 Cold Damage + 1 Negative Level, no save, Fort Save or Dazed for 1 round).

For a minimum of 390 piercing cold damage (ignores resistance and immunity is only 50% effective), 2 negative levels, and 2 fort saves or dazed.

And a maximum of 540 damage (the rest as above).

Average damage is 465 (the rest as above).

And Cindy can fire off a quickened one in a 5th level slot.


So yes, a Blaster Mage can beat a level 20 fighter.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 04:28 PM
And a fighter could have most of that, too. The fighter, if he's built well, will probably also have equipment that gives him a fair bit of energy resistance.

most of that being half, since the other 8 he can't get. And if you can find a high level divination spell that does damage, that could be cast at critter number 107 23 hours ago to give the Wizard an additional +7-9 Init.

No a Wizard that can't cast Nerveskitter and a high level Divination can't force a fighter off the RNG, but he will still always have a large advantage, not to mention his ability to pump Dex higher then the fighter.

Also, like the Wizard is going to care about his energy resistance. He'd have to get it pretty jacked up in several different categories to stop an Arcane Thesised Monster of an Orb from killing him.


Even with maxed HP a wizard of lvl 20 will be at 4*20+4*20=160
A well-built fighter (example: power attack, improved bullrush, shocktrooper, leap attack, improved critical) can deal these 160dmg quite quickly.
By charging and using shock Trooper you can deal 60Dmg just by using Power Attack, with Two-Weapon-Pounce it should be about 80Dmg without scoring a crit what should be quite easy.
If you win the Initiative, you should wipe the floor with the mage.

Which is great right up until you realize that a well built Wizard can insta gib a Fighter too, and that Wizards always have the Initiative advantage, even when arbitrarily deprived of 90% of their spells.


A Fighter with a Ring of antimagic field has the wizard toast, no damage and no disjunction or dispel magic Blaster wizard is toast unless he's got some ring of disjunction.

See the part where he's not a retard and he uses the Orb spells to kill the guy in one round.

Bitzeralisis
2008-04-13, 04:33 PM
Who would win? That really depends.

Of course, we could just run random computer simulations until we have a statistical average. :smallconfused:

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-13, 04:38 PM
Who would win? That really depends.

Of course, we could just run random computer simulations until we have a statistical average. :smallconfused:

On average Cindy will beat any level 20 fighter. If we allow buffs and non blasty spells its a simple Greater Celerity+Quickened Orb+Orb for a guaranteed kill.

If we allow Cindy access to only her blasty spells she still wins every time she wins Initiative and her Initiative can always be higher than the fighters, so she will win on average.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-13, 04:40 PM
Not to mention what happens if Cindy uses The Great Cheese: Maw of chaos. Metamagicked, I believe that's the most powerful damage spell out there.

Signmaker
2008-04-13, 04:41 PM
Even at level 1 the wizard still wins this.

A level one evocist versus a level 1 fighter, are you serious? What, the magic missiles are going to compete against a STR 18 Fighter? Mage crumples.

Level one Evocation is weak at level one. Fancy that.

Hario
2008-04-13, 04:41 PM
See the part where he's not a retard and he uses the Orb spells to kill the guy in one round.

If it were only core there is no way around it. Splat books in this case just add fire to the migraine, as a DM I don't see any good reason why orbs can go through a zone where no magic can penetrate, unless you get into higher/epic magic or spells specific to go through antimagic areas

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-13, 04:42 PM
Because Orbs are conjuration, of the Creation subtype. Once created, a Creation spell is nonmagical. Thus, it goes straight through an AMF.

Deepblue706
2008-04-13, 04:43 PM
On average Cindy will beat any level 20 fighter. If we allow buffs and non blasty spells its a simple Greater Celerity+Quickened Orb+Orb for a guaranteed kill.

If we allow Cindy access to only her blasty spells she still wins every time she wins Initiative and her Initiative can always be higher than the fighters, so she will win on average.

What's the maximum range of Cindy's spells? I'm wondering if a Fighter with good speed (maybe just a mount) and a bow has a chance (that is, when Cindy doesn't use Celerity, etc).

Chronos
2008-04-13, 04:44 PM
not to mention his ability to pump Dex higher then the fighter.Ah, yes, I forgot, that because the wizard is SAD, his ability scores other than Int are higher than those of anyone else. No, wait, that's exactly what SAD isn't.

Aquillion
2008-04-13, 04:45 PM
A Fighter with a Ring of antimagic field has the wizard toast, no damage and no disjunction or dispel magic Blaster wizard is toast unless he's got some ring of disjunction.Um, where is the Ring of Antimagic Field from?

Even that wouldn't work, though, depending on how you interpret 'damage dealing spells'. Prismatic Sphere is damage-dealing, after all, if you walk into it.

If we're talking just direct damage-dealing spells with no other effects, though...

Another question is whether the two of them prepare for this fight specifically. Ironically, with the wizard's spell selection so limited, preparation (for once) favors the fighter; both characters are likely to focus heavily on their initiative, but if the fighter comes in wearing heavy armor that limits their bonus from dex, they'll have a good chance of losing. Dex is generally only a wizard's third-best stat (after int and con), but it's still probably going to be decently positive, and a heavily-armored fighter isn't likely to have more than 12 dex either.

On the other hand, you certainly can build a dex-based fighter with dex as their second or even first-priority stat. In that case the fighter will almost certainly win.

The distance between them at the start also matters. If it's absurd enough, the wizard may be able to win simply through long-range attacks and walking away, even with the fighter closing the distance steadily... assuming the fighter isn't focused on ranged attacks, which is also possible (and would likely mean they have a high dex, too.)

...still, it's a much more fair fight than most of the ones we have. The fighter could definitely win in several ways.

Part of the problem with 'fighter vs' matches, as you've probably noticed, is that there's just so many ways to build a fighter... it's not as easy as monk vs (which are more straightforward, unless... well, you've seen the threads) or wizard vs (where you have spell selection, but your build is still likely to be wiz 20 with the same stat priorities every time.)

Fighters can be very different from each other.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-13, 04:59 PM
She uses an Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substituted (cold), Piercing Cold, Fell Draining, Invisible, Twinned, Energy Admixed (cold), Orb of Fire - 2(180 + 15d6 Cold Damage + 1 Negative Level, no save, Fort Save or Dazed for 1 round).

I think that explains in a nutshell why I'm banning Arcane Thesis from my games on grounds of cheese.

bugsysservant
2008-04-13, 05:03 PM
Alright then. Fighter is a mineral warrior with a spiked chain. Takes Aberrant reach and that vile feat that makes you have longer arms (tall?).Spring attacks the wizard from underground. The wizard can't do anything except try to blast through 60 ft. of earth to reach the fighter.

Or, without LA, is a raptoran. Turns himself invisible using any of the items that grant invisibility. Comes up to the wizard and kills her flat footed.

Yes, the wizard can counter these, but that would require feats or gold or both. The fighter has the same or more of both of these. The fighter wins.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-13, 05:05 PM
Actually, any area spell will hit the fighter. Particularly those that do ont pay heed to terrain.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 05:07 PM
Ah, yes, I forgot, that because the wizard is SAD, his ability scores other than Int are higher than those of anyone else. No, wait, that's exactly what SAD isn't.

Except that Dex is widely regarded as a Wizards second/third most important stat, whereas the vast majority of fighters never get it above 20.

No one's claiming that a Wizards stats are all higher then a Fighters, just that the priorities favor dex, and Wizards don't wear armor limiters. Not to mention the specified Wizard was Eleven.

Signmaker
2008-04-13, 05:11 PM
Except that Dex is widely regarded as a Wizards second/third most important stat, whereas the vast majority of fighters never get it above 20.

No one's claiming that a Wizards stats are all higher then a Fighters, just that the priorities favor dex, and Wizards don't wear armor limiters. Not to mention the specified Wizard was Eleven.

Because the majority of fighters wear heavy armor?

Considering this flow of thought, most wizards usually aren't evocists, they play to their strengths. Therefore, we can assume that the fighter in question may not be tapped out to common optimization patterns. Bowfighter and whatnot. Dex would be third to a wizard, but depending on the fighter, Dex can be fighter's first.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 05:14 PM
Alright then. Fighter is a mineral warrior with a spiked chain. Takes Aberrant reach and that vile feat that makes you have longer arms (tall?).Spring attacks the wizard from underground. The wizard can't do anything except try to blast through 60 ft. of earth to reach the fighter.

Well since he would need to break the surface to attack the Wizard (LoE) the Wizard readies an action to kill him. Wizard wins.


Or, without LA, is a raptoran. Turns himself invisible using any of the items that grant invisibility. Comes up to the wizard and kills her flat footed.

Why does he need to be a Raptoran to be invisible? That race adds nothing to your build. But once again, barring the fact that we have no rules for how this fight starts, Wizard wins Init and kills, or uses a Hand of Glory, because he wants it anyway for his extra ring slot.


Yes, the wizard can counter these, but that would require feats or gold or both. The fighter has the same or more of both of these. The fighter wins.

So in other words, it comes down to, A Wizard that can only cast crap spells is exactly equal to a fighter using every cheese imaginable to take advantage of the rules of a challenge except with better init.

Why not try building a single fighter that can beat this Wizard without knowing the rules of the contest in advance, since the single Wizard build presented has so far proved to be equal or better then every possible fighter build, all of which she has to fight in succession.


Dex would be third to a wizard

I'm sorry, are you one of the local Wizard optimizers? Or are you just one other person with an opinion, who doesn't play Wizard's as much as the people showing you the incredible init advantage already possessed by Wizards even when they can't cast their spells?

Chronos
2008-04-13, 05:25 PM
Except that Dex is widely regarded as a Wizards second/third most important stat, whereas the vast majority of fighters never get it above 20.And Dex is also the second or third most important stat for a fighter, and unlike the wizard, the fighter (being MAD and all) probably isn't spending 16 of his point buy on his primary stat, so he'll have more left over for it.

SAD is an argument for the wizard's highest stat being higher than the fighter's highest stat. It isn't an argument for any of the wizard's non-Int scores being better than the fighter, because if you're prioritizing those other scores, too, you're not SAD any more.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 05:32 PM
And Dex is also the second or third most important stat for a fighter, and unlike the wizard, the fighter (being MAD and all) probably isn't spending 16 of his point buy on his primary stat, so he'll have more left over for it.

Except that the Fighter, not being all that MAD with most builds, quiet often does spend 16 points on Str. And since Dex is third if given any reason to be above 16 (that's total after enhancements) in a great number of Fighter builds, there is no reason to expect him to be able to match an Elf who puts Dex as second.

Not to mention he'd still have to make up a difference of at least 8, probably more.


SAD is an argument for the wizard's highest stat being higher than the fighter's highest stat. It isn't an argument for any of the wizard's non-Int scores being better than the fighter, because if you're prioritizing those other scores, too, you're not SAD any more.

Could you please point to anywhere in this whole thread that anyone besides you used the term "SAD" before harping on it anymore?

Grommen
2008-04-13, 05:34 PM
Who's character is the DM's in this pointless debate?

I'm putting my copper on him.

Any of you ever heard of a "Mage Beater"?

You should implement them in your games. Keeps them humble.

Really if you want to debate such a pointless thing at least post some character builds. If I'm allowed to pick a side then pick any items, feats, skills I want. Most likely I'm always going to come out on top regardless of class. Without any stats at all you can make an arguement for either side.

Now if were talking pure pointless theory here I'll have to side with the wizard. Unless we get to start in close and unbuffed. In that case the wizard is toast or at least in serious trouble.

Why people assume that fighters are dumb and always attack from the front and announce that they are coming boggles my mind anyway. Best way to kill a pesky wizard (epically one of them dar direct damage dealers) is to never be seen until your on top of the bugger, and preferably with some magic deadening devices on your person. This way their is no debate on weather a spell will work or not. Magic dead region on top of magic user = dead magic user.

Thats my two copper anyway.

Signmaker
2008-04-13, 05:34 PM
I'm sorry, are you one of the local Wizard optimizers? Or are you just one other person with an opinion, who doesn't play Wizard's as much as the people showing you the incredible init advantage already possessed by Wizards even when they can't cast their spells?

I play Wizards. Not as great as most people, but I do. As for incredible init advantage, I can't say I know what you're talking about. Please elaborate?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 05:52 PM
I play Wizards. Not as great as most people, but I do. As for incredible init advantage, I can't say I know what you're talking about. Please elaborate?

The point would be that a Gray Elf Wizard taking the Races of the Wild Substitution levels 1 and 3, for his Hummingbird Familiar, then Improved Initiative, the Aggressive trait, and wearing a belt of battle has an Init score of 16 + Dex. The best a fighter can manage is 8 + Dex. And since any Ranged Touch attack focused Elven Wizard is going to focus on Dex second, he's going to have a high enough Dex (starting at 16 at level 1 according to 28 PB, 18 at 32) that he will exceed any non-Dex based fighter. And will in fact still on average win init over said fighter, thanks to his +8 over him not counting dex. Of course, that's not including the other +14 to init a Wizard could receive from spells that he isn't allowed to cast under the set up presented.


Any of you ever heard of a "Mage Beater"?

No, please elaborate so that we can compare them against the common examples of optimized Wizards.


Really if you want to debate such a pointless thing at least post some character builds.

Strangely, the Wizard already has a build, but those Fighters are so nebulous.


Unless we get to start in close and unbuffed. In that case the wizard is toast or at least in serious trouble.

Unless he wins init and kills the fighter in a single round, as has been presented as the most likely scenario so far.


Why people assume that fighters are dumb and always attack from the front and announce that they are coming boggles my mind anyway.

Why people think Wizards stand around asking for people to sneak up on them boggles my mind.


Best way to kill a pesky wizard (epically one of them dar direct damage dealers) is to never be seen until your on top of the bugger, and preferably with some magic deadening devices on your person.

You sound like you are expressing a general statement about Wizards that would even be applied to ones capable of casting buff spells on themselves. In which case, I would invite you to go ahead and explain how you would find, much less hurt Tippy's Wizard under her normal set of buffs.

And while you are at, perhaps you could explain what these fictional items are. "Magic deadening."


Magic dead region on top of magic user = dead magic user.

If only something like that existed, you might have a point.

bugsysservant
2008-04-13, 06:01 PM
Well since he would need to break the surface to attack the Wizard (LoE) the Wizard readies an action to kill him. Wizard wins.

I don't know what book "LoE" is, and can't find it on the common acronym lists, but last I checked, it was still ambiguous as to whether you could attack with reach from underground. If that's been officially cleared up, then obviously I wouldn't use that build.


Why does he need to be a Raptoran to be invisible? That race adds nothing to your build. But once again, barring the fact that we have no rules for how this fight starts, Wizard wins Init and kills, or uses a Hand of Glory, because he wants it anyway for his extra ring slot.

Sorry, forgot to mention that it was a raptoran for the nonmagical flight, and was focused in archery. I was really pressed for time and had to go. The point was that the fighter can just buzz around the wizard undetected till he decides the wizard is vulnerable and kill him in one volley of arrows. And don't assume the fighter is a meleer. How the hell do you think a wizard is going to win initiative against an archer?


So in other words, it comes down to, A Wizard that can only cast crap spells is exactly equal to a fighter using every cheese imaginable to take advantage of the rules of a challenge except with better init.

Wow, way to completely miss the point. They're not equal, because the wizard is inherently inferior to the fighter in terms of survivability. The wizard needs to a.) See the fighter b.) win initiative c.) Hit the fighter for several hundred points of damage d.) make sure the fighter doesn't have immunity to the attack it just used. If it fails at any of those, its dead, because a fighter can easily dish out a few hundred points of damage. Essentially, the wizard has to be almost four times more optimized then the fighter to be "exactly equal."


Why not try building a single fighter that can beat this Wizard without knowing the rules of the contest in advance, since the single Wizard build presented has so far proved to be equal or better then every possible fighter build, all of which she has to fight in succession.

Why not try using a build for a wizard that follows the rules and stands a chance of winning? The vast majority of levels in the one presented aren't wizard, and it currently has an init of... +3. You want a build that can beat that? Fine. Fighter twenty, takes improved initiative and boosts dex to the mid twenties. Takes power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper. Has a ring of invisibility. There, now it will consistently win initiative and kill the wizard in one round.


I'm sorry, are you one of the local Wizard optimizers? Or are you just one other person with an opinion, who doesn't play Wizard's as much as the people showing you the incredible init advantage already possessed by Wizards even when they can't cast their spells?

The incredible init advantages? Such as what, exactly? Can you really tell me that a wizard is going to have better initiative than an archery focused fighter?

Edit: Wait, your "incredible init advantage" is using a substitution level (considered inferior by people who are good at optimizing), using a familiar I've never seen used or mentioned on any guides to optimization, an item that the fighter should have anyway, and spending a massive amount to boost a stat that's only useful for one specific type of build?

So, in essence, the wizard has to use a sub optimal build which will restrict its capabilities elsewhere in order to be as good as a fighter with out much optimization which has only improved his capabilities in play?

That's your idea of an "incredible advantage"?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 06:25 PM
I don't know what book "LoE" is, and can't find it on the common acronym lists, but last I checked, it was still ambiguous as to whether you could attack with reach from underground. If that's been officially cleared up, then obviously I wouldn't use that build.

It wouldn't be a book, it would be an abbreviation for Line of Effect, that thing you need to actually attack someone.


Sorry, forgot to mention that it was a raptoran for the nonmagical flight, and was focused in archery. I was really pressed for time and had to go. The point was that the fighter can just buzz around the wizard undetected till he decides the wizard is vulnerable and kill him in one volley of arrows. And don't assume the fighter is a meleer. How the hell do you think a wizard is going to win initiative against an archer?

And my point is that flight doesn't help you in any conceivable way. Notice that you assume the fighter is a Dex based archer. However the Wizard build is a simple example of building an optimized Wizard and the stripping him of all his spells that don't deal damage. So in other words, not designing at all for the challenge, compared to the fighter that is picked precisely for being optimized for the challenge.

Once again, why is the Wizard standing around letting anyone do that when he can go invisible just as easily as the fighter, and probably has a Hand of Glory to kill the Fighter with anyway (since ring slots are more beneficial to Wizards).

He's going to win Init by having a higher Initiative modifier.


Wow, way to completely miss the point. They're not equal, because the wizard is inherently inferior to the fighter in terms of survivability. The wizard needs to a.) See the fighter b.) win initiative c.) Hit the fighter for several hundred points of damage d.) make sure the fighter doesn't have immunity to the attack it just used. If it fails at any of those, its dead, because a fighter can easily dish out a few hundred points of damage. Essentially, the wizard has to be almost four times more optimized then the fighter to be "exactly equal."

And the Fighter has to be able to 1) Win init, 2) Kill the Wizard in one shot, 3) See the Wizard, 4) Make sure the Wizard doesn't have immunity to his attack (luckily this one is done for him by robbing the Wizard of 95% of his spell list).


Why not try using a build for a wizard that follows the rules and stands a chance of winning? The vast majority of levels in the one presented aren't wizard, and it currently has an init of... +3. You want a build that can beat that? Fine. Fighter twenty, takes improved initiative and boosts dex to the mid twenties. Takes power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper. Has a ring of invisibility. There, now it will consistently win initiative and kill the wizard in one round.

1) Because no one has informed be of the rules of the challenge 2) because no one has bothered to build a fighter build, 3) because I have already outlined a Wizard build that will win most of the time against pretty much every Fighter, and isn't designed around the challenge other then some of his WBL compensating for the things he lost when 95% of his spells where removed.


The incredible init advantages? Such as what, exactly? Can you really tell me that a wizard is going to have better initiative than an archery focused fighter?

Edit: Wait, your "incredible init advantage" is using a substitution level (considered inferior by people who are good at optimizing), using a familiar I've never seen used or mentioned on any guides to optimization, an item that the fighter should have anyway, and spending a massive amount to boost a stat that's only useful for one specific type of build?

So, in essence, the wizard has to use a sub optimal build which will restrict its capabilities elsewhere in order to be as good as a fighter with out much optimization which has only improved his capabilities in play?

That's your idea of an "incredible advantage"?

No, that would be a substitution feature generally regarded as the best possible choice for a non-specialist, spending moderate amounts of money for a stat that helps the specific build that we are limiting ourselves to, buying an item that's useful for everyone, and then using a familiar that is mentioned in several Wizard guides, just not TLN's the only one you've ever read.

This creates a build that can win Init every fight, instantly kill almost any enemy, and doesn't restrict any capabilities that he would have if he miraculously gained access to all those spells that don't do damage again.

Signmaker
2008-04-13, 06:36 PM
You know, if you're going to optimize for this one showdown, the fighter might as well too. And due to that, you can't guarantee a 100% win for the wizard. Potentially a high number, as this isn't resolved yet, but not 100%

As for assuming the fighter's form of attack, a Fighter has A. Melee or B. Ranged.

Let's flip a coin, choose which one the thread will build.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-13, 06:46 PM
I don't know what book "LoE" is, and can't find it on the common acronym lists, but last I checked, it was still ambiguous as to whether you could attack with reach from underground. If that's been officially cleared up, then obviously I wouldn't use that build.
Line of Effect. You can't attack without it. Ground blocks LoE.


Sorry, forgot to mention that it was a raptoran for the nonmagical flight, and was focused in archery. I was really pressed for time and had to go. The point was that the fighter can just buzz around the wizard undetected till he decides the wizard is vulnerable and kill him in one volley of arrows. And don't assume the fighter is a meleer. How the hell do you think a wizard is going to win initiative against an archer?
Flight is irrelevant for this fight. And if its not, the wizard can get it easily.


Wow, way to completely miss the point. They're not equal, because the wizard is inherently inferior to the fighter in terms of survivability. The wizard needs to a.) See the fighter
Helm of True Seeing, its about 98K. And this is assuming that the wizard can use no non damage dealing spells at all.

b.) win initiative
Unless the fighter can pick up an extra +8 to his Initiative that is unlikely. He can't make use of a hummingbird and the sub level.

c.) Hit the fighter for several hundred points of damage
As I have shown, minimum damage can be 390 plus 2 negative levels which incidentally drops a Con 30, Max HP fighter 20 to exactly 0 HP.

d.) make sure the fighter doesn't have immunity to the attack it just used.
How is a fighter getting immunity to cold damage? The only item which grants it is epic IIRC. And even then, with the second quickened orb it doesn't matter.


If it fails at any of those, its dead, because a fighter can easily dish out a few hundred points of damage.
The only one that the wizard can fail is the Initiative one, the rest are dealt with.

Essentially, the wizard has to be almost four times more optimized then the fighter to be "exactly equal."
Not really. Dragonsight, Foresight, and Greater Celerity added into the mix guarantee the wizard the win. This is all using the highly arbitrary condition that the wizard can only use direct damage spells, nothing else at all.


Why not try using a build for a wizard that follows the rules and stands a chance of winning? The vast majority of levels in the one presented aren't wizard, and it currently has an init of... +3. You want a build that can beat that? Fine. Fighter twenty, takes improved initiative and boosts dex to the mid twenties. Takes power attack, leap attack, and shock trooper. Has a ring of invisibility. There, now it will consistently win initiative and kill the wizard in one round.
If it casts as wizard 20 it is a wizard. That build will win if its allowed to use its full buff list and all its spells. Switching around to get the higher Init is trivial.


The incredible init advantages? Such as what, exactly? Can you really tell me that a wizard is going to have better initiative than an archery focused fighter?
Let's see. Grey Elf has +2. Gloves of Dex (at least +4 if not +6). And a Tome for another +2-+4. Base of 16 gives a Dex of 24-28. The only reason Cindy's isn't buffed is because Shapechange makes it irrelevant.


Edit: Wait, your "incredible init advantage" is using a substitution level (considered inferior by people who are good at optimizing),
Actually the elf generalist sub levels are actually quite good, you give up nothing if you didn't plan to specialize in the first place. Add in the Spontaneous Divination sub level and there is no reason to specialize in Divination. If you go Incantatrix you would be giving up 3 schools if you specialized, which is a fairly big hit. So take the generalist sub level and ban Evocation. And you give up nothing useful at all when you take the 3rd sub level.


using a familiar I've never seen used or mentioned on any guides to optimization,
It gives +4 Initiative and the reason you never see it mentioned is Foresight+Greater Celerity makes Initiative meaningless for an optimized wizard.


an item that the fighter should have anyway, and spending a massive amount to boost a stat that's only useful for one specific type of build?
Wizards don't have that much worth buying in the first place, less than a fighter anyways. More disposable gold. Especially if you are going incantatrix and don't need rods of metamagic.


So, in essence, the wizard has to use a sub optimal build which will restrict its capabilities elsewhere in order to be as good as a fighter with out much optimization which has only improved his capabilities in play?
You are calling Cindy suboptimal? If thats your opinion you shouldn't even open your mouth in an optimization thread. And I would note that the generic wizards pwn build I generally post to these things (Cindy) is 2 levels lower than the fighter and in this thread is operating under a massive restriction, no buffs. If Cindy is allowed her day long buffs she can not loose to any fighter, persistent Ironguard means no metal weapon can hurt her at all, ever.

FlyMolo
2008-04-13, 06:50 PM
Even at level 1 the wizard still wins this.

Sudden empowered, sudden maximised magic missile. No save, enough damage to kill. At well out of charging range at level 1.

I know, It's happened to me.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-13, 06:53 PM
This is why I don't play wizards. Because it's like god mode. There's no thrill in fighting if you just use the same combo of what's generally regarded as the insta-win button over and over.

bugsysservant
2008-04-13, 06:53 PM
It wouldn't be a book, it would be an abbreviation for Line of Effect, that thing you need to actually attack someone.

Nope, that's not true. As far as I know, the wizard just has cover from the fighter. So, yes, the fighter can easily kill the wizard at about... ECL 2. Show me the ruling that says that creatures with a burrow speed need to surface to attack.


And my point is that flight doesn't help you in any conceivable way. Notice that you assume the fighter is a Dex based archer. However the Wizard build is a simple example of building an optimized Wizard and the stripping him of all his spells that don't deal damage. So in other words, not designing at all for the challenge, compared to the fighter that is picked precisely for being optimized for the challenge.

"Your" wizard build isn't a wizard 20, and is one of the cheesiest builds shy of Pun-Pun. So, in other words, choosing a completely valid type of fighter (archery) is suddenly "designing for the challenge." Guess what? The build that Tippy presented will LOSE INITIATIVE so, to stand a chance against any fighter, it has to be much more designed for the challenge then anything the fighter has to be.


Once again, why is the Wizard standing around letting anyone do that when he can go invisible just as easily as the fighter, and probably has a Hand of Glory to kill the Fighter with anyway (since ring slots are more beneficial to Wizards).

Because there isn't a damn thing the wizard can do without divination magic to find a flying invisible fighter?


He's going to win Init by having a higher Initiative modifier.

Not the presented build, no. If you're going to repeatedly insult people for having nebulous builds, at least have the courtesy to not give your build capabilities that it clearly doesn't have.


And the Fighter has to be able to 1) Win init, 2) Kill the Wizard in one shot, 3) See the Wizard, 4) Make sure the Wizard doesn't have immunity to his attack (luckily this one is done for him by robbing the Wizard of 95% of his spell list).

All of which a reasonably optimized fighter should be doing anyway, shy of a specific wizard build to counter it. Because the vast majority of wizards, stripped of all but blasty spells, will use to the vast majority of fighters.


1) Because no one has informed be of the rules of the challenge 2) because no one has bothered to build a fighter build, 3) because I have already outlined a Wizard build that will win most of the time against pretty much every Fighter, and isn't designed around the challenge other then some of his WBL compensating for the things he lost when 95% of his spells where removed.

1) There was one rule: fighter 20, wizard 20. Its been broken with the only concrete wizard build. Congratulations, you've just lost the thread.
2) People don't have to fill in every single feat to build a fighter. Half the posters have fleshed out a character concept with enough details to provide a reasonable challenge. {Scrubbed}
3) The only build I've seen was Tippy's, and it didn't follow the rules of the contest. {Scrubbed}


No, that would be a substitution feature generally regarded as the best possible choice for a non-specialist, spending moderate amounts of money for a stat that helps the specific build that we are limiting ourselves to, buying an item that's useful for everyone, and then using a familiar that is mentioned in several Wizard guides, just not TLN's the only one you've ever read.

{Scrubbed}

bugsysservant
2008-04-13, 06:59 PM
Sorry if this is a double post. And I'm not responding to most of your points, because they have been largely answered above.


If it casts as wizard 20 it is a wizard.

Where the hell did you get that idea? So, if it has twenty levels of wizard spell casting its a wizard? If it has twenty levels of full BAB is it a fighter? If so, using fighter 20 is hardly optimal for the challenge.


You are calling Cindy suboptimal? If thats your opinion you shouldn't even open your mouth in an optimization thread.

No, I'm disregarding Cindy because she doesn't follow the rules. {Scrubbed}

I was saying that a wizard that devotes as much resources to init as has been suggested is suboptimal. Which, considering that Cindy has none of what was suggested, is perfectly true, since I consider Cindy to be VERY optimized.

Deepblue706
2008-04-13, 07:03 PM
Sudden empowered, sudden maximised magic missile. No save, enough damage to kill. At well out of charging range at level 1.

I know, It's happened to me.

Wait, what?

From the SRD:
Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Empower Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.


I would have thought that amounts to 7 damage (4 maxed variable result, +1, +2 empowered (half of the max variable result, which is 4)). Am I missing something?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as for Orb spells - what is the maximum range on those? I asked earlier, but I think it was overlooked by just about everyone.

Worira
2008-04-13, 07:06 PM
Sudden empowered, sudden maximised magic missile. No save, enough damage to kill. At well out of charging range at level 1.

I know, It's happened to me.

6-7 damage, against a 10 hp fighter assuming no con bonus? No. And the second shot, which you'd only get if the fighter wasn't carrying a bow and lost initiative, would deal 2-5. Pretty likely to kill, but not guaranteed, and rather unlikely with a con bonus.

Roland St. Jude
2008-04-13, 07:17 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep things civil in here and follow the Forum Rules. Thanks.

Chronos
2008-04-13, 08:14 PM
I think that, in the case FlyMolo is remembering, it was a warmage who cast it. They get an extra bonus (equal to Int bonus, I think) to damage spells.

I think also that FlyMolo's character was a squishy warlock, not a big, tough fighter. Easier to kill them.

purplearcanist
2008-04-13, 08:23 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep things civil in here and follow the Forum Rules. Thanks.

Please, stop arguing. Thanks for showing me this stuff.
Now, same duel, same rules, except:

1. Only non-magical equipment allowed, and no magical modifications or buffs.
2. Both combatants start in an open arena 100 ft. apart from each other, and are aware of each other simultaneously.
3. Only rules from the d20 SRD. I keep getting confused with things like the hummingbird.
4. Both combatants start with the elite-array.

Now, who would win a fight?

tyckspoon
2008-04-13, 08:30 PM
Please, stop arguing. Thanks for showing me this stuff.
Now, same duel, same rules, except:

1. Only non-magical equipment allowed, and no magical modifications or buffs.
2. Both combatants start in an open arena 100 ft. apart from each other, and are aware of each other simultaneously.
3. Only rules from the d20 SRD. I keep getting confused with things like the hummingbird.
4. Both combatants start with the elite-array.

Now, who would win a fight?

Wizard. That's too far away for the Fighter to charge, and staying within core means he doesn't get the feat chains and/or classes that let him do gross damage with Power Attack, full attack on the charge he isn't getting, or ensure that he hits with his massive Power Attack. Meanwhile the Wizard throws a Quickened, Maximized Scorching Ray and a Maximized, Empowered Scorching Ray. Assuming all hit, that's 144 damage plus whatever comes from the Empowered roll. If that's not enough to drop the non-magically equipped Fighter, he does it again next round.

If by no 'magical modifications' you mean no metamagic (in which case, for fairness, the Fighter shouldn't be using his bonus feats either..), then drop an Acid Fog on the Fighter and wait a while. When he staggers out of it, cast another one. If that's not considered a 'damaging spell' for the purpose of this contest, then the Fighter starts to have a chance, now that the Wizard is not allowed to use any means of improving his own damage output whatsoever.

bugsysservant
2008-04-13, 08:32 PM
Wizard. That's too far away for the Fighter to charge, and staying within core means he doesn't get the feat chains and/or classes that let him do gross damage with Power Attack, full attack on the charge he isn't getting, or ensure that he hits with his massive Power Attack. Meanwhile the Wizard throws a Quickened, Maximized Scorching Ray and a Maximized, Empowered Scorching Ray. Assuming all hit, that's 144 damage plus whatever comes from the Empowered roll. If that's not enough to drop the non-magically equipped Fighter, he does it again next round.

But... he doesn't have to charge. Since winning initiative is actually very important, it would be far more optimal for him to focus on archery.

Deepblue706
2008-04-13, 08:37 PM
Wizard. That's too far away for the Fighter to charge, and staying within core means he doesn't get the feat chains and/or classes that let him do gross damage with Power Attack, full attack on the charge he isn't getting, or ensure that he hits with his massive Power Attack. Meanwhile the Wizard throws a Quickened, Maximized Scorching Ray and a Maximized, Empowered Scorching Ray. Assuming all hit, that's 144 damage plus whatever comes from the Empowered roll. If that's not enough to drop the non-magically equipped Fighter, he does it again next round.

If he has a mount affixed with Horseshoes of Speed (missed the "no magic" part, but apparently that doesn't matter, cuz warhorses rock), he can certainly close the distance, and deliver a spirited charge (x3 damage if he's wielding a lance).

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-13, 08:46 PM
But... he doesn't have to charge. Since winning initiative is actually very important, it would be far more optimal for him to focus on archery.

Well, max of 22 dex if he puts everything into dex and is an elf. Str would then be 14, so best bow would be a +2 composite longbow, dealing 1d8+2, x3 on crits. One hit can't kill a wizard, and the concentration checked caused by this would be minimal, thus its likely that the wizard will have a turn, and thus be able to destroy the fighter.

Note that in the above example I assumed Elf(for dex bonus), so max con at this point is 11, or a +0 bonus, yielding 114.5 hp on average.

purplearcanist
2008-04-13, 08:49 PM
Wizard. That's too far away for the Fighter to charge, and staying within core means he doesn't get the feat chains and/or classes that let him do gross damage with Power Attack, full attack on the charge he isn't getting, or ensure that he hits with his massive Power Attack. Meanwhile the Wizard throws a Quickened, Maximized Scorching Ray and a Maximized, Empowered Scorching Ray. Assuming all hit, that's 144 damage plus whatever comes from the Empowered roll. If that's not enough to drop the non-magically equipped Fighter, he does it again next round.

If by no 'magical modifications' you mean no metamagic (in which case, for fairness, the Fighter shouldn't be using his bonus feats either..), then drop an Acid Fog on the Fighter and wait a while. When he staggers out of it, cast another one. If that's not considered a 'damaging spell' for the purpose of this contest, then the Fighter starts to have a chance, now that the Wizard is not allowed to use any means of improving his own damage output whatsoever.

More rules...
1. Spells must only do damage, such as fireball. The other effects a spell has (besides damage) are ignored.
2. By magical modifications, I mean things like using a wish to beef up your intelligence. Metamagic feats are certainly within the rules.

tyckspoon
2008-04-13, 09:14 PM
Mm. Mounted could work, although it'll come right back to winning initiative. Inside Core and with no magic, I'm pretty sure neither contestant can get enough of an Init bonus to reliably go first. Assume they both take Improved Initiative. The Wizard's stats must have his 15 to Int and all levelup bonuses assigned there, so he can access 9th level spells. Then Con and Dex are important; he could be an Elf to maximize his Dex, but that will leave him very squishy indeed. I would go with Dwarf or Gnome for the Con boost.. probably Gnome, being Small has some additional modest benefits for this. So a level 20 array for the Wizard might be
Int 20 (15)
Con 15 (13)
Dex 14 (14) and nothing else is significant. His to-hit with a ranged touch is +13, AC 13. He'll get hit by pretty much anything, but that's no surprise when you take magic off a class that doesn't wear armor.

Fighter: Gaining initiative is paramount for a close arena setting, so he'll put his either his 15 or 14 in Dex. If he's going to be a ranged fighter, he needs some Strength bonus to get any decent damage from a non-magical bow; that'll get whichever high score didn't go to Dex. Then Con is important too, so that's the 13. Nothing else matters; he'll probably have only an average Wis, but his opponent isn't being allowed to use spells that would target that. So..

Dex 15
Str 14
Con 13 before levelup points are assigned or a race is chosen. If he wants to maximize his chance of going first, make him an Elf and put all the points to Dex. That'd be Dex 22, Str 14, Con 11. Good Initiative and ranged to-hit, but his damage output isn't very solid and he's a pretty soft target. If he Rapid Shots with a Composite Bow (+2 Strength), he gets five attacks doing 1d8+2, with the last couple having a fair chance of missing. That's at most 50 damage, disregarding criticals. The Wizard is going to get about 4 hp a level, for a (lower than average and not including the maxed first level) total of 80. Not good for that fighter; he needs more damage. I wouldn't normally recommend this, but he might do well to be a Half-orc..

Base stats: Dex 14, Str 15, Con 13. Racial mods: Dex 14, Str 17, Con 13. Level bonuses: 1 Str, 1 Con, 2 Dex, the last one can't go anywhere useful.
End stats: Dex 16, Str 18, Con 14. Shoots five times at d8+4, which is.. still not enough to take down the Wizard. Huh. Might have to fully focus on Str.. ok, all five levelups to Str. Str 22, +6 bow (he hasn't got anything else to bother spending cash on, after all.) d8+6 x 5 gets.. 70 damage. Whoop. The ranged fighter can't take out the Wizard in one round without getting incredibly lucky, on the scale of rolling multiple crits and then rolling well for damage with said crits. The Wizard *can* take out the Fighter in one round unless the Fighter puts enough into Con to get well above 144 damage.

Long post is long- I don't mean to ignore how a mounted attack might work out, but I'm tired of typing.

Edit: I forgot Weapon Spec; a Core Fighter 20 is going to wind up with that eventually. That'll put the damage high enough that the Fighter can take down the Wizard, *if* he focuses in Strength and *if* he rolls astronomically nigh-impossibly well for damage and if the Wizard has low HP or decided to be an Elf and sunk his own Con.

GoC
2008-04-13, 09:41 PM
Even with maxed HP a wizard of lvl 20 will be at 4*20+4*20=160

Won't most mages invest in a +6 con boosting item?
Con is also the second most important stat for mages (int->Con->Dex->the rest)

Deepblue706
2008-04-13, 09:42 PM
Yeah, can't expect the archer to take out the wizard without either poison or enchanted arrows. If he had Improved Critical, then he has a 10% chance of getting a critical hit with each shot, which isn't that bad with 5 attacks.

But, If I were to say any Fighter could take out this kind of Wizard, it'd have to be the lancer. It's the only sure way of dealing damage under these circumstances.

What are we doing here, 25 point buy?

Let's use the Gnome Wizard again. I'll call him Wilburt:

STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 15
WIS 12
CHA 8

We can boost his CON by one for extra HPs, or boost his DCs with INT. Either way, 4 of his bonus points go to getting his spells.

He'll go against...my Orc Pal "Grugg":

STR 20
DEX 17
CON 10
INT 6
WIS 6
CHA 6

He's fat and unhealthy, pretty dumb, ugly, and he can smash anyone's skull in with just about anything solid - and he's nuts enough to smash his own in, if you try to convince him he's a chicken otherwise. He'll use 4 bonus points on STR, and 1 on DEX. All of his skill points are in ride, by the way.

Here's his feat list:

1 Power Attack
1F Improved Initiative
2F Mounted Combat
3 Ride-By Attack
4F Point Blank Shot
6 Rapid Shot
6F Spirited Charge
8F Far Shot
9 Precise Shot
10F Manyshot
12 Dodge
12F Mobility
14F Mounted Archery
15 Quick Draw
16F Shot on the Run
18 Improved Unarmed Strike
18F Improved Grapple
20F Weapon Focus: Lance

Both will undoubtedly grab improved initiative. If the Wizard has no method of obtaining higher initiative, then Grugg will maintain a higher chance of going first. Most of the feats Grugg has were chosen for filler - all I really need are the mounted feats + improved initiative to illustrate my point. But, the archery there is to show he's versatile, and the improved grapple is for nabbing Gnomes who fail to kill him. Since his only skill is ride, and he has a DEX bonus, he should have no problem doing a fast dismount to grapple the little bastard. Of course, he'll probably be dead if he ever misses, so that point is more for fun than argument's sake.

Imagine Grugg doing a full -20 to his power attack at the end of his Spirited Charge. Oh, he's using two hands for his lance. That's a charge that has a +8 to attack (+6 STR, +1 for being Mounted, +1 from Weapon Focus) and deals 1d8+9(due to STR)+40(due to -20 PA) times three. That's about 150 damage.

Wilburt's average HP will be around 81 if he doesn't boost his CON, a little over 100 if he does by 1 (to bring it to 16).

SO!

Essentially, HP is meaningless. Both characters should be Elves, to maximize initiative, because in this matchup, it's all that matters. If the Fighter only boosts DEX and STR, and the Wizard only DEX and INT, it is a flat even match under these circumstances, decided entirely by fate, so long as the Fighter has the mounted combat tree and both grab improved initiative. I think.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 10:36 PM
Won't most mages invest in a +6 con boosting item?
Con is also the second most important stat for mages (int->Con->Dex->the rest)

Well 1) We are now operating under a no magic item ruleset.

2) No. There are different priorities depending on what you build for, and Dex is as often second as Con.

3) None of it actually matters anymore, since we long ago stopped actually evaluating anything when we limited ourselves to a 100ft Arena with no magic items Core only and ignoring none damaging effects of spells. At this point instead of the 50% correlation with a real game we started with, we are now looking at a 0% correlation. Since not a single part of the supposed rules is likely to come up in game.

Rutee
2008-04-13, 10:39 PM
I think the idea behind pure-damaging spells onry is that you guys were trying to job the concept. The idea here is Blaster Mage. Not combination Debuff/Damage spells.

Karsh
2008-04-13, 10:47 PM
Hm, I see my little kiddo has been the source of some controversy in here. *pats Cindy on the head*

I would go through and try to make a logical argument in a blow-by-blow account of everything that's gone on in this thread, but it really boils down to this: The thing which the fighter is trying to kill is not a wizard. It's impossible to present a build for a wizard which conforms to these rules.

There's no way to restrict spell selection within the rules in this manner. I think that at best you can manage about 5 prohibited schools, but even evocation has non-damage dealing spells in it.

This is a strawman. Please stop calling it a wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-13, 10:50 PM
Assuming neither was built from level one knowing they would be put in this challenge (and therefore going by what I view as the best way to build either for a game) and assuming the wizard knew all of his spells would be blasty from the start, no PrCing, init. is the same.
Both prioritize Dex the same amount (tertiary stat) so they should have approx the same bonus to init(both run out of core feats fairly quickly so imp. init is standard, dex is nearly the same). A 28 point-buy results in 18 int, 14 con, 12 dex for the wizard, 16 str, 16 con, 14 dex for the fighter. However, when race is brought into the picture, both get the same dex, as neither is likely to be a human (too many feats already), but the wizard can be either a gnome or a halfling and get a dex bonus, (the gnome not actually getting a dex bonus is countered by the fact that it can switch dex and con and not impact it's stat costs) but the fighter is almost forced to be either a dwarf, human, or half-orc to avoid a str, con, or size penalty. (I won't give half-elves the honor of a mention). Since both are likely to throw 5 level-ups into either str or int, dex will be likely to be the same, so both have the same init, and neither can therefore be assumed to win that. The fighter can only charge 60 feet in a round without a mount or magic items (he's not going ranged because I see that build so rarely that I usually don't even think of it as an option), so he can be assumed to have one of those due to versatility reasons (he's knows he's going to run into situations like this even without knowing he's going to run into this) (mount due to the no-magic restirction). Therefore, the wizard will be hit first 50% of the time, and hit first the other 50%. so it all comes down to damage and survivability.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 10:50 PM
I think the idea behind pure-damaging spells onry is that you guys were trying to job the concept. The idea here is Blaster Mage. Not combination Debuff/Damage spells.

My point wasn't really about that it was that we started with a gimped Wizard, as we always do, because otherwise Wizards win. This makes the challenge already not about real D&D, but just a challenge that happens to borrow some of D&Ds rules. But then, because Wizards could still win while gimped, we changed the rules again, removing even those aspects.

We now have a challenge that shares so few of the actual rules of D&D that to call it D&D is almost a travesty.

This applies to both builds. The idea of a level 20 Core fighter alone hurts my head, because to do that you would need to genuinely hate yourself.

Rutee
2008-04-13, 11:06 PM
WEll, I didn't read through every post on the thread, but it seemed like people were deliberately picking spells that deal damage incidentally, and have status effects as their primary use. I think in Real DnD, it's more common for people to pick their spells for damage first. Not for Real optimized DnD, but in most groups, I don't think true optimization is the norm.

But I only played regularly years ago. I could be wrong now.

Edit: Also, I don't mean 100% Blasty Spell is the norm. I think most spells going to nukes is normal, for wizards, but that most players keep a utility or buff style spell or two prepared (notably Fly, for casting on the melee)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-13, 11:08 PM
WEll, I didn't read through every post on the thread, but it seemed like people were deliberately picking spells that deal damage incidentally, and have status effects as their primary use. I think in Real DnD, it's more common for people to pick their spells for damage first. Not for Real optimized DnD, but in most groups, I don't think true optimization is the norm.

But I only played regularly years ago. I could be wrong now.Read the thread next time. We're now looking at a house-rule that all non-damaging effects are ignored.

Rutee
2008-04-13, 11:10 PM
Read the thread next time. We're now looking at a house-rule that all non-damaging effects are ignored.

I got that from CoV's post. I'm stating why I think that's being implemented. At a guess, y'all are picking your spells for damage second, status effect first, with the caveat that the spell deal damage. That's ignoring the spirit of a Blaster Mage.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 11:12 PM
WEll, I didn't read through every post on the thread, but it seemed like people were deliberately picking spells that deal damage incidentally, and have status effects as their primary use. I think in Real DnD, it's more common for people to pick their spells for damage first. Not for Real optimized DnD, but in most groups, I don't think true optimization is the norm.

But I only played regularly years ago. I could be wrong now.

Actually, there was only one person who suggested Acid Fog. Most of the argument centered around Initiative and how Archer Fighters are much more common then any other type, because that's the only type that could beat a Wizard in init. We started with the assumption that a real blaster Wizard would at least be good at blasting. (IE good enough to kill a fighter in one round with metamagiced Orbs.)

Others argued (predictably) that the Wizard who is already deprived of 95% of his spells should also not be allowed to optimize, while the fighter pulls out every Ubercharging, 80ft reach, Super Archer in existence.


I got that from CoV's post. I'm stating why I think that's being implemented. At a guess, y'all are picking your spells for damage second, status effect first, with the caveat that the spell deal damage. That's ignoring the spirit of a Blaster Mage.

I know I just said this. But no, seriously, read the thread. We started with a Wizard that killed the fighter through damage in one round.

Chronos
2008-04-13, 11:19 PM
Not good for that fighter; he needs more damage. I wouldn't normally recommend this, but he might do well to be a Half-orc..The better option than a standard elf, and probably better than a half-orc, would be a Wood Elf. They get bonuses to both Strength and Dex, though the loss of Con still hurts.

Note also that the current state of the discussion is SRD only, not core only, so Greater Manyshot is on the table. So the fighter could ride up to 30' away, and then fire off a bunch of arrows with Point Blank Shot and (Greater) Weapon Specialization added on.

Rutee
2008-04-13, 11:19 PM
Huh. Well I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I wish I could say WotC sucked at testing, but.. player man hours vs. dev man hours.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-13, 11:26 PM
Question: Why is archer fighter being considered? That build is extremely uncommon, and viewed by everybody as one of the weakest options possible, so the only time it sees use is in challenges like these. Honestly, has anyone here ever built an archer fighter for an actual game? Let's stick to things that are plausible might come up. (ignoring the implausibility of a blaster with no non-damaging spells and a fighter 20 in the first place)

Squash Monster
2008-04-13, 11:29 PM
I only saw one mention of Maw of Chaos in here. That's unacceptable in a discussion of high-level blasting.

Really though, it comes down to whoever wins initiative. A purely blasting-focused wizard is going to open up with Maw of Chaos or an insanely metamagiced ray spell, which will grind or melt the fighter in one casting. The fighter will rip the wizard in two with a single attack, since this wizard isn't going to be using any meaningful defensive buffs.

Of course, the Wizard really should win initiative here, since he has Nerveskitter and a dozen other tricks, but those might not be blasty enough for this thought exercise.


Question: Why is archer fighter being considered? That build is extremely uncommon, and viewed by everybody as one of the weakest options possible, so the only time it sees use is in challenges like these. Honestly, has anyone here ever built an archer fighter for an actual game? Let's stick to things that are plausible might come up. (ignoring the implausibility of a blaster with no non-damaging spells and a fighter 20 in the first place)Wait, what? Archer fighter is one of the top three best fighter builds. Bullrush, archer, lockdown.

Crow
2008-04-13, 11:32 PM
Wait, what? Archer fighter is one of the top three best fighter builds. Bullrush, archer, lockdown.

Bullrush? What!?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 11:38 PM
Bullrush? What!?

Dungeon Crasher sub. It's actually great because thanks to Knockback it can be used in conjunction with Shocktrooper Charges.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-13, 11:39 PM
Question: Why is archer fighter being considered? That build is extremely uncommon, and viewed by everybody as one of the weakest options possible, so the only time it sees use is in challenges like these. Honestly, has anyone here ever built an archer fighter for an actual game? Let's stick to things that are plausible might come up. (ignoring the implausibility of a blaster with no non-damaging spells and a fighter 20 in the first place)

Me! I tend to play archer or at least mid-range fighters of one sort or another. Ranger, scout, that sort of thing. But fighter levels often contribute quite at least a bit.

Overlord
2008-04-14, 12:15 AM
Woooh! An optimization fight! This is like Wrestlemania, only with less steroids and advertisements!

I do think we should lay down a few ground rules, to help curb the arguing and foster intelligent and entertaining discussion. Here are my suggestions:


The Wizard shouldn't be able to cast any spells that do not do direct damage. No buffs. Is it completely arbitrary? Yes. But it's essentially mandated by the nature of the thread. Otherwise, there will be a bunch of needless controversy over the amount of time the Wizard has to buff, and other considerations.
No Prestige Classes, or multiclassing. This thread is about Wizards and Fighters.
Magic Items are a huge can of worms that we should be careful opening. I think it's best if we ban most of them entirely. Why? Well, A: As much as the Fighter is generally dependent upon magic items, I think they'll help the Wizard way more than they'll help the Fighter, and B: I think it's rather unfair for the Fighter to possess items that require spells that the Wizard is banned from using in order to be constructed in the first place. I think that items should be limited to weapons, armor, and items that give a flat bonus to things like saves, resistances, and other statistics. Otherwise, the first things on the Wizard's item list would be scrolls of Time Stop, Forcecage, etc.
The fact is, this is really going to boil down to an initiative optimization challenge. The idea that a Fighter is going to be able to sneak up on the Wizard for a surprise round attack is pretty bogus. Whichever contestant acts second, is going to die first. However, I do think that a major secondary goal for this challenge should be making a character that can survive losing initiative. That would be a true winner.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-14, 12:27 AM
If you know for a fact you're gonna die in one round with or without armor, why don't we just have a naked guy with a sword? It would actually work, because he could, in theory, charge the full 100 feet to the wizard and get off his attack before the wiz gets off his ridiculous metamagic (After all, I think it shouldn't be considered a spell, merely spell-flavored metamagic, especially after the number of metamagic feats applied to it outweighs the number of letters in the name). Plus, full dex to AC means you might just be able to avoid an orb spell. MAYBE. Or, if we're discussing orb spells, said fighter could take wild talent and deflective armor, which puts your armor bonus in the deflection bonus category (though only for heavy armor).

Deepblue706
2008-04-14, 12:33 AM
Speaking of naked people, the Fighter would totally win if they were both naked. And, the Wizard had no spells prepared.

Aquillion
2008-04-14, 12:37 AM
This is why I don't play wizards. Because it's like god mode. There's no thrill in fighting if you just use the same combo of what's generally regarded as the insta-win button over and over.
Um, this is exactly wrong. Although you may see people occasionally post the same spell 'combos' in PVP threads, those have nothing to do with actual D&D.

In fact, fighters are the class who use the same 'win-button' combo over and over (the fact that it's more of a 'basic competence button' and not a 'win button' doesn't make this any less fun.) The entire design of the fighter class is centered around choosing one combo, which will then be the only thing your class levels support you in doing for the rest of your adventuring career. Yes, fighters can use items, or fight (badly) using just their BAB for support, but the real meat of being a fighter comes down to "Pick one combo. Use it repeatedly for 20 levels (minus however long it takes you to set it up) until the game is over. Roll another, hopefully more interesting, character."

Sure, you can roleplay a fighter as interesting, but it would be nice to have interesting mechanics, too. As it stands, fighter mechanics are... dull. Maybe you can set up two or three tricks instead of just one, but at heart a fighter has very very few options.

By comparison... a wizard has an absurd number of options. They can change their entire list of memorized spells every day. They can cast a completely different spell for a radically different effect every round. Using quickened spells, or multiple rounds, they can come up with entirely new combos on the fly. A wizard can react and change which spells they use or memorize based on their situation and environment, and they can use spells in new or clever ways in response to the world around them.

There are a lot of criticisms you can make about a wizard's balance, but complaining that you do the same thing over and over as a wizard is dead wrong. In fact, out of all the classes in the game, they are the one that that least applies to; there are few published classes anywhere that offer even a fraction of the wizard's versatility.

This is why people call the wizard "Batman"; they have a tool in their belt for absolutely anything. A smart wizard doesn't rely on one or two good combos the way a fighter does (or even ten or twenty good combos, for that matter); they rely on good spell selection overall and a good brain to use those spells effectively, at the most opportune time.

Wizards don't win because they have a good combo (in fact, most of the really good combos are fighter things -- fighters have uberchargers, trip-immobilizers, and so on that are vastly superior to most of what a wizard could do under the limited circumstances where those combos apply.) Wizards win because they can do anything.

Squash Monster
2008-04-14, 01:50 AM
Speaking of naked people, the Fighter would totally win if they were both naked. And, the Wizard had no spells prepared.Actually, depending on the arena the Wizard could bring the fight to a draw if he took Abrupt Jaunt.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-14, 01:50 AM
A fighter with 30 Con and max HP at each level has 400 HP.

Cindy (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=5890) here is level 18 (and I can't be bothered to add in the extra 2 levels at the moment).
Why is Cindy, an elf, only two feet and six inches tall? That's short for a halfling! :smalltongue:

Admiral Squish
2008-04-14, 02:00 AM
Um, this is exactly wrong. Although you may see people occasionally post the same spell 'combos' in PVP threads, those have nothing to do with actual D&D.

In fact, fighters are the class who use the same 'win-button' combo over and over (the fact that it's more of a 'basic competence button' and not a 'win button' doesn't make this any less fun.) The entire design of the fighter class is centered around choosing one combo, which will then be the only thing your class levels support you in doing for the rest of your adventuring career. Yes, fighters can use items, or fight (badly) using just their BAB for support, but the real meat of being a fighter comes down to "Pick one combo. Use it repeatedly for 20 levels (minus however long it takes you to set it up) until the game is over. Roll another, hopefully more interesting, character."

Sure, you can roleplay a fighter as interesting, but it would be nice to have interesting mechanics, too. As it stands, fighter mechanics are... dull. Maybe you can set up two or three tricks instead of just one, but at heart a fighter has very very few options.

By comparison... a wizard has an absurd number of options. They can change their entire list of memorized spells every day. They can cast a completely different spell for a radically different effect every round. Using quickened spells, or multiple rounds, they can come up with entirely new combos on the fly. A wizard can react and change which spells they use or memorize based on their situation and environment, and they can use spells in new or clever ways in response to the world around them.

There are a lot of criticisms you can make about a wizard's balance, but complaining that you do the same thing over and over as a wizard is dead wrong. In fact, out of all the classes in the game, they are the one that that least applies to; there are few published classes anywhere that offer even a fraction of the wizard's versatility.

This is why people call the wizard "Batman"; they have a tool in their belt for absolutely anything. A smart wizard doesn't rely on one or two good combos the way a fighter does (or even ten or twenty good combos, for that matter); they rely on good spell selection overall and a good brain to use those spells effectively, at the most opportune time.

Wizards don't win because they have a good combo (in fact, most of the really good combos are fighter things -- fighters have uberchargers, trip-immobilizers, and so on that are vastly superior to most of what a wizard could do under the limited circumstances where those combos apply.) Wizards win because they can do anything.

In pure combat terms, I was referring to clerity+timestop+whatever the hell else you feel like doing. My problem with magic is they have all this potential to do whatever the hell they want, but more often than not, some sod will find the cheapest, most overly-powerful insta-win button and perform it over. And over. And over. And even if they don't use the same combo over and over and over, they still stick to a few combos they really like, or the same buff routine, or whatever, because they can't seemingly stand the thought of doing anything but winning as quickly as is physically possible.

A big thing here is I don't like it when things come too easy. A properly-buffed mage can stand on the frontlines, rain death from above, sneak better than any rogue, and basically, outdo anybody without breaking a sweat. And when you see a fighter or a rogue doing their level best, when a wizard can waltz through whatever they're doing, it pisses me off, because I can't see any kind of disadvantage to magic. It's god mode for D&D.

I really don't get how you think fighters are one-trick ponies. I play fighters, quite often, and I've yet to see anything of this one-trick problem. Sometimes they have a specific trick they do, but those people tend to be the same sort who do the one-trick wizards. Sometimes there's a combo a fighter prefers, and yeah, you want to try to do a full attack, but there's tons and tons of things any melee character can do to give themselves a more varied game experience.

Another problem is magic users and making them EVEN BETTER takes almost all of the resources down at wizard's. In nine books I own, there's probably five, maybe ten prestige classes a fighter would be able to get into, and more than thirty designed for casters. Which only CONTRIBUTES to the problem of the supposed one-trick pony fighter.

I admit, fighter options are limited. But being limited, and achieving WITH those limits on, is a lot more satisfying to me than insta-gibbing the tarrasque at level ten with the right combos.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-14, 02:01 AM
Why is Cindy, an elf, only two feet and six inches tall? That's short for a halfling! :smalltongue:Panel 4 (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/darthsanddroids/episodes/0052.html). :smallbiggrin:

Crow
2008-04-14, 02:05 AM
Another problem is magic users and making them EVEN BETTER takes almost all of the resources down at wizard's. In nine books I own, there's probably five, maybe ten prestige classes a fighter would be able to get into, and more than thirty designed for casters. Which only CONTRIBUTES to the problem of the supposed one-trick pony fighter.



I'll echo that. There are very few PrC's that a single-classed fighter can get into, while there are loads that single-classed casters can enter.

Also, how many new wizard spells have been published? Compare this to how many new fighter feats have been published.

Spiryt
2008-04-14, 03:03 AM
Why is Cindy, an elf, only two feet and six inches tall? That's short for a halfling! :smalltongue:

Beacuse she's 6 years old?

Rutee
2008-04-14, 03:05 AM
I'll echo that. There are very few PrC's that a single-classed fighter can get into, while there are loads that single-classed casters can enter.

Also, how many new wizard spells have been published? Compare this to how many new fighter feats have been published.

Or how many wizard spells are in core compared to Fighter Feats.

Solo
2008-04-14, 06:54 AM
Or how many good fighter feats there are.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-14, 08:05 AM
Rather than this hypothetical damaging-stuff-only wizard, wouldn't it be easier to simply pit a Warmage against a fighter?

You know, the C.Arc class that has mostly invocation-boom spells on his list. Does he outdamage a fighter that's not ubercheesed?

Aquillion
2008-04-14, 08:07 AM
Actually, depending on the arena the Wizard could bring the fight to a draw if he took Abrupt Jaunt.Or using a contingency. Or any other good long-term buff (they'll be flying, at least, thanks to overland flight). The rules only said no prepared spells, not no spells in effect...

Also, there are several ways to get spells as SLAs.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 10:15 AM
Rather than this hypothetical damaging-stuff-only wizard, wouldn't it be easier to simply pit a Warmage against a fighter?

You know, the C.Arc class that has mostly invocation-boom spells on his list. Does he outdamage a fighter that's not ubercheesed?

I believe the point is that even though the Warmage has very few good spells, he does have some. Not to mention the Eclectic Learning variant to get fly ect.

Warmage: I cast Prismatic Sphere.
Fighter: Oh Crap!

Kurald Galain
2008-04-14, 10:48 AM
Warmage: I cast Prismatic Sphere.
Fighter: Oh Crap!

Doesn't Eclectic Learning mean you have to learn it at one level higher than normal, since this isn't an evocation spell? So when does the Warmage learn to cast 10th-level spells?

Paul H
2008-04-14, 10:49 AM
Hi

Glad to see someone's remembered the Warmage. The thread title states Blaster Mage, yet the text only stated Wizard.

If my Warmage/Rainbow Servant goes first - the Fighter probably dies. If the Fighter goes first -I might.

Don't forget I have ALL the Cleric Spell List added to my own.

Warmage in Mithril Full Plate of Gtr Blurring (20% miss chance) casts Leomund's Tiny Hut, walks few paces & casts any of his Sudden Quicked big hitters. The Hut spell creates a globe of force that you can see out of, but others can't see in. (Even underground if that matters). Fighter can't charge since he has no target.

If you're limiting casters to damage spells only, I presume the Fighter is also denied any protective items, armour, rings of deflection, etc?

As always, it's 'Horses for Courses', and depends on what equipment & styles they use. And who goes first......

Cheers
Paul H

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 11:22 AM
Doesn't Eclectic Learning mean you have to learn it at one level higher than normal, since this isn't an evocation spell? So when does the Warmage learn to cast 10th-level spells?

Take a look at the 9th level Warmage spells:

Wail of the Banshee, Prismatic Sphere, Implosion, Weird, Meteor Swarm, Elemental Swarm

Level 8: Scintillating Pattern, Incendiary Cloud, Prismatic Wall.

Warmages aren't even as crappy as what we are limiting Wizards to.

Paul H
2008-04-14, 11:22 AM
Doesn't Eclectic Learning mean you have to learn it at one level higher than normal, since this isn't an evocation spell? So when does the Warmage learn to cast 10th-level spells?

Hi

Don't know about Ecletic, but Arcane Disciple Travel domain allows you to cast any travel domain spells once/day, with no level adjustment.

Also, add this to Rainbow Servant (CA), and you've also got domain powers and spells of Air, Good & Law added to your spell list. Again, with no level adjustment to the spells.

Brilliant for Warmages. (Air, Good & Law spells count as part of your spell list, not once per day as Arcane Disciple).

Cheers
Paul H

Deepblue706
2008-04-14, 11:28 AM
Actually, depending on the arena the Wizard could bring the fight to a draw if he took Abrupt Jaunt.

Shhhhhhhhh

Paul H
2008-04-14, 11:29 AM
Hi

To follow on from Chosen's point, a Sudden Quickened Leomund's Tiny hut, followed by Prismatic Sphere means that the fighter won't know he's walking through the prism effects until he walks through Leomund's force effect.

(Fighter might pass reflex vs elemental damage, probably pass the fort saves, so only D6 con dam & no petrification. But TWO will saves? Insane AND sent to another plane)?

Cheers
Paul H
(Warmage player)

Deepblue706
2008-04-14, 11:31 AM
Or using a contingency. Or any other good long-term buff (they'll be flying, at least, thanks to overland flight). The rules only said no prepared spells, not no spells in effect...

Also, there are several ways to get spells as SLAs.

Oh, you know what I meant!

They're in a 10x10 room, and nobody's even friggin' eaten in the last 48 hours. The winner gets to digest the loser.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 11:33 AM
The point is that Warmages have access to some no-sucky spells, and therefore insta win against Fighters. We are trying to determine who wins with only the suckiest spells allowed.

Translation: Warmages are too good for this challenge, we need to find something worse, and then pretend that's a "Wizard" even though his spell list is more limited then a Warmages.

Doomsy
2008-04-14, 03:06 PM
Wizard almost always wins, because there is always some unholy 'I Win' combo of spells somewhere in any situation because they put out dozens of spells with pretty much any given splat book - including the direct damaging types. Not even mentioning the feats that can be used for further breakage.

The almost is a maybe, but technically, the fighter might have the advantage at the base of the Spire in Outlands.

Maybe.

If the wizard doesn't have Timmons Win Spell of Permanently Flinging Fire/Sonic/Cold/Energy/Gary Busey Turned Into A Huge Grinning Head Ball For Miles Into Antimagic Zones And The Realms Of The Gods Themselves or some long lasting combo. Which I wouldn't bet against him having.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 03:16 PM
What about an Adept? Would Fighter vs Adept be a fair fight?

Thinker
2008-04-14, 03:51 PM
How about this? The wizard has to be single classed and is allowed no metamagic/spell-focus feats. The wizard may only take spells that deal damage with no other effects and he has to restrain himself to core. The fighter can multiclass twice and take one prestige class and may use anything in the completes. The wizard must use the following array: 9, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12, which may not be modified by races. The fighter gets whatever array, feats, and build he feels are best for the situation. :smallyuk:

Solo
2008-04-14, 03:53 PM
What about an Adept? Would Fighter vs Adept be a fair fight?

Adepts get Polymorph, don't they?

purplearcanist
2008-04-14, 03:54 PM
What about an Adept? Would Fighter vs Adept be a fair fight?

1. Ban polymorph. Otherwise, the adept can turn into something that can rip the fighter to pieces.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 04:23 PM
The wizard may only take spells that deal damage with no other effects...So, no Fireball, then? It also has a chance to set things on fire.

Thinker
2008-04-14, 04:34 PM
So, no Fireball, then? It also has a chance to set things on fire.

That makes it an unfair spell for this challenge. The fighter cannot set things on fire with an attack, therefore fireball is out.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 05:45 PM
1. Ban polymorph. Otherwise, the adept can turn into something that can rip the fighter to pieces.

This is sad. An NPC class > Fighter...

Overlord
2008-04-14, 05:58 PM
This is sad. An NPC class > Fighter...

Well, no, polymorph is just a ridiculous spell.

...But yeah, an Adept probably could whoop a Fighter. That is sad.

Crow
2008-04-14, 06:15 PM
Polymorph doesn't automatically destroy the fighter. You would be limited to 15HD or your caster level. Plus you wouldn't get any of the creature's spell-like abilities and what-not. Can't remember if you would lose your own spellcasting or not. Still, making verbal and somatic components may be tricky depending on the form the adept chooses.

I'd take that challenge.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 06:18 PM
Hmm...with magic items or without?

Rutee
2008-04-14, 06:22 PM
I'm pretty sure Thinker is being sarcastic guys.

Can someone go through the math of the 390 min. damage Orb of <Whatever>? I don't ahve access to pretty much any of the components of it.

Solo
2008-04-14, 06:32 PM
That makes it an unfair spell for this challenge. The fighter cannot set things on fire with an attack, therefore fireball is out.

He could attack with a torch while the wizard tosses around his great balls of fire.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty sure Thinker is being sarcastic guys.

That much was obvious, yes. The damage is basically stacking all the metamagic you can think of onto an orb.

Base 15d6. Then tack on maximize for an automatic 90. Tack on Empower for an additional 15d6 *0.5, minimum 7. Tack on Energy Admixture for 2 of that Orb, albeit typically of different elements. Minimum of 194 so far. Then throw in Twin Spell to magical make a second Energy Admixtured Maximized Empowered Orb appear out of thin air, striking the same target. So, that's 388 damage. The 2 damage difference is rounding differences.

Total unmodified spell slot: 4 (orb default) + 3 + 2 + 4 + 4 = level 17 spell slot. Don't try this at home without Incantatrix + other heavy cheese.

Tack on Quicken spell so you can do this *twice* a turn.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 06:36 PM
Metamagic cheese like Incantatrix and Arcane Theory?

And what precisely does Energy Admixture do? Twin is self evident, that one, not so much.

(No, this isn't really a complaint, btw. The Fighter was going to use Ubercharger or Archer Cheese, I'm sure, so wtf do I care if the Wizard does?)

tyckspoon
2008-04-14, 06:39 PM
I'm pretty sure Thinker is being sarcastic guys.

Can someone go through the math of the 390 min. damage Orb of <Whatever>? I don't ahve access to pretty much any of the components of it.


Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substituted (cold), Piercing Cold, Fell Draining, Invisible, Twinned, Energy Admixed (cold), Orb of Fire - 2(180 + 15d6 Cold Damage + 1 Negative Level, no save, Fort Save or Dazed for 1 round).

This one? 1d6/level base, capped at 15d6. Orb of Fire has save against daze as its rider effect, Substitution makes it Cold damage. Energy Admixture adds in an equal amount of another elemental damage type (or the same one, in this case.) 30d6 cold damage so far. Piercing Cold makes it break resistances and immunities. Fell Draining causes a negative level with each instance of damage from the spell it is attached to, limit 1 per spell. Invisible, IIRC, makes the target flat-footed against the spell. Maximize gets you the best possible result on the damage dice, and then Empower gets you an additional one-half of the roll. So 30d6 Maximized is 180 +15d6 for Empower, plus the rider effect of Orb of Fire and the negative level of Fell Draining.

Then Twin makes the whole spell happen twice, doubling the damage. This is explicitly two separate instances of the spell, which lets Fell Drain apply twice.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 06:45 PM
And each negative levels drops your HP by 5 points, meaning that with all minimum damage rolls it does exactly enough damage to drop a CON 30, max HP, level 20 fighter to 0 HP with 1 spell.

Crow
2008-04-14, 06:49 PM
Man, I can't wait for the sweet spot after 4th edition is released where there will be no splatbooks yet...

Rutee
2008-04-14, 06:51 PM
Man, I can't wait for the sweet spot after 4th edition is released where there will be no splatbooks yet...

Enjoy those 10 seconds while they last, dear :smallsigh:

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 06:52 PM
Man, I can't wait for the sweet spot after 4th edition is released where there will be no splatbooks yet...

4e has balance problems in its PHB already. And wizards are still the most powerful. At least according to someone I trust on balance questions who WotC has reviewing the book.

Chronicled
2008-04-14, 06:53 PM
Tippy, you do realize that Cindy's trick of +0 metamagic giving negative spell levels with Arcane Thesis has been errata'd, right?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 06:55 PM
Tippy, you do realize that Cindy's trick of +0 metamagic giving negative spell levels with Arcane Thesis has been errata'd, right?

Have you read and seriously considered the errata? It still allows exactly what Tippy has done. This conversation comes up all the time. It only prevents the spell from being in a lower level slot, it doesn't prevent a +0 from becoming a -1.

Crow
2008-04-14, 06:57 PM
Enjoy those 10 seconds while they last, dear :smallsigh:

Well 10 seconds, or until one of my players buys one...I won't be the one though :smallwink: *dear*


4e has balance problems in its PHB already. And wizards are still the most powerful. At least according to someone I trust on balance questions who WotC has reviewing the book.

No surprises there. We already know how wizards intends for classes to be played, and unfortunately, this doesn't match up with how it goes down on the 'boards at least. I wouldn't doubt they're not being play-tested with such abuses in mind.

Mostly it will just cut down on people pulling feats and spells from 100 different books for message board challenges. They'll instead be pulling about 30 feats and spells from the core 3 books.

Chronicled
2008-04-14, 07:04 PM
Have you read and seriously considered the errata? It still allows exactly what Tippy has done. This conversation comes up all the time. It only prevents the spell from being in a lower level slot, it doesn't prevent a +0 from becoming a -1.

I was misinformed, then. My apologies.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:14 PM
I was misinformed, then. My apologies.

Technically, by RAW, Cindy is legal. By "all the DMs I've ever played with", it's usually not quite so legal. It's one of those, you have one, and then DM will throw two at you kinda things, killing your character so you're forced to roll a new character at party average -1. Sort of like Disjunction. Don't use it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 07:18 PM
Technically, by RAW, Cindy is legal. By "all the DMs I've ever played with", it's usually not quite so legal. It's one of those, you have one, and then DM will throw two at you kinda things, killing your character so you're forced to roll a new character at party average -1. Sort of like Disjunction. Don't use it.

Yeah, but the hard part is the DM actually offing Cindy without being really, really blatant about it. As in epic casters being thrown at you.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 07:21 PM
Mostly it will just cut down on people pulling feats and spells from 100 different books for message board challenges. They'll instead be pulling about 30 feats and spells from the core 3 books.

Actually what it will do is give all the people who think things are balanced when it only takes five ways up setting the challenge up against the Wizard to actually have a chance at beating him instead of 500.

I mean, heres a short list of challenges that I've seen on these boards:

1) Wizard versus Monk, Monk start on other continent and wins if he survives for 5 days.

2) Wizard versus any non caster, non-caster rolls only 20s on a d20, Wizard rolls only 1s.

3) Wizard can only cast spells that do HP damage, and all non-damaging effects of these spells are ignored.

4) Wizard starts with his eyes cut out, bound and gagged, 150ft from a Monk who just entered the room.

Tippy's Standard level 18 Wizard Build can actually win all of those with depressing regularity. And that's how conversations start.

And yet still there are people who pop up in every one of these threads (including this one) that think Wizards aren't any more powerful then anyone else.

If one possible fighter build out of a hundred could beat a Wizard deprived of 95% of his spells in an arena, where he knew the rules before he had to make any build decisions, then that's evidence that "Wizard's aren't so bad." to some people.

The simple fact is that some people are so intent on ignoring obvious power disparities, that the lack of complete and total invulnerability will make them think that everything is balanced.

Hell though, my new policy when it comes to Wizard challenges is to use a Necropolitian Tainted Scholar for every one. Sure I may not automatically win Init, but if I have Foresight I'll immediate action Halt most characters, or find some other immediate action save-or-X. And then next round hit them with a save or die that they don't have immunity against.

Make a DC 200 Fort save or die.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:22 PM
Have 2 copies of Cindy, or similarly built characters, go against Cindy. Very simple. Mirrors of opposition work. And if the DM doesn't like what you're doing, then Cindy will die, blatant or not. Hell, a Sphere of Annihilation falls on Cindy. Cindy can't be ressurected. Next.

I certainly wouldn't care about being blatant in killing off Cindy. I'd announce it in fact. Cindy's player may leave, but then he or she isn't playing DnD anymore, which is the whole point of having Cindy. You want to join my games? You better obey the Rules as Intended (as interpreted by the DM and discussed and agreed upon by the rest of the players in a mature manner).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 07:24 PM
Technically, by RAW, Cindy is legal. By "all the DMs I've ever played with", it's usually not quite so legal. It's one of those, you have one, and then DM will throw two at you kinda things, killing your character so you're forced to roll a new character at party average -1. Sort of like Disjunction. Don't use it.

Well if you don't let them see your character sheet to copy off of, most DMs would be hard pressed to build Cindy.

And Cindy is nearly invulnerable against Cindy anyways.

At least he's nice enough to not bring in the Prismatic Dragons.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 07:27 PM
Have 2 copies of Cindy, or similarly built characters, go against Cindy. Very simple. Mirrors of opposition work. And if the DM doesn't like what you're doing, then Cindy will die, blatant or not. Hell, a Sphere of Annihilation falls on Cindy. Cindy can't be ressurected. Next.
Yes, the DM can do all of that. In which case he should never have allowed Cindy in his game in the first place. And actually when Karsh and I built Cindy and Akkarin (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=7809) they were meant to be a team, which made the DM's job even harder (they are stronger than the sum of their parts).


I certainly wouldn't care about being blatant in killing off Cindy. I'd announce it in fact. Cindy's player may leave, but then he or she isn't playing DnD anymore, which is the whole point of having Cindy. You want to join my games? You better obey the Rules as Intended (as interpreted by the DM and discussed and agreed upon by the rest of the players in a mature manner).
Ah, but Cindy does follow the rules as intended. Show me 1 place where she uses RAW over RAI. It's just that the combination of rules and abilities, being used exactly as intended, is far more powerful than was intended.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:30 PM
Well if you don't let them see your character sheet to copy off of, most DMs would be hard pressed to build Cindy.

And Cindy is nearly invulnerable against Cindy anyways.

At least he's nice enough to not bring in the Prismatic Dragons.

With enough copies of Cindy, I can kill Cindy easily. Cindy is a spellcaster. One DM-Cindy is responsible for attacking. The others are responsible for spamming Greater Dispel Magic or Disjunction, and still more are there to ready actions to Counterspell whatever Cindy casts. Throw on some Dimensional Anchors, and then start lobbing Orbs at Cindy. Quicken a True Strike.

I can kill Cindy with 10 Dm-Cindys. Whatever Cindy is immune to, she won't be when she has NO buffs, and all of her equipment have been dispelled/Disjunctioned. Alternatively, DM can call in a Planar-Sheperd to assist DM-Cindyes.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:32 PM
Yes, the DM can do all of that. In which case he should never have allowed Cindy in his game in the first place.
Correct. No DM I know, nor myself, would allow that interpreation of Arcane Thesis. Trying to bring Cindy in would be futile. Or, if the player insists, Cindy will die a humiliating death. Probably via Pun-Pun.



is far more powerful than was intended.

That is the key phrase.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 07:33 PM
Mostly it will just cut down on people pulling feats and spells from 100 different books for message board challenges. They'll instead be pulling about 30 feats and spells from the core 3 books.

Oh yes. I'm sure it'll stay pretty sane for a few months, at least.

And guys, this isn't Exalted. "Rocks fall, Cindy dies" works.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:36 PM
Oh yes. I'm sure it'll stay pretty sane for a few months, at least.

And guys, this isn't Exalted. "Rocks fall, Cindy dies" works.

Not good enough. Death usually doe snot prevent ressurection. Spheres of Annihilation do.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 07:40 PM
With enough copies of Cindy, I can kill Cindy easily. Cindy is a spellcaster. One DM-Cindy is responsible for attacking. The others are responsible for spamming Greater Dispel Magic or Disjunction, and still more are there to ready actions to Counterspell whatever Cindy casts. Throw on some Dimensional Anchors, and then start lobbing Orbs at Cindy. Quicken a True Strike.

I can kill Cindy with 10 Dm-Cindys. Whatever Cindy is immune to, she won't be when she has NO buffs, and all of her equipment have been dispelled/Disjunctioned. Alternatively, DM can call in a Planar-Sheperd to assist DM-Cindyes.

The problem is that Cindy can only Fight Cindy if she happens to be within 120ft of Cindy. Seriously, Mindblank + Superior Invisibility means either:

1) True Seeing (with it's 120ft limit) is the only thing in the entire universe that can find Cindy.

2) Not even True seeing can.

So for Cindy to even find Cindy is hard enough. And if she does, then she teleports away, and suddenly, back to square one.

That still doesn't address the fact that most Dms can't build Cindy because it is beyond their abilities. And even if they could, they wouldn't know how to play her as well.

tyckspoon
2008-04-14, 07:40 PM
And guys, this isn't Exalted. "Rocks fall, Cindy dies" works.

It kind of is, if you're trying to work within the mechanics and not declaring a fiat death/removal of a troublesome character. Foresight and immediate actions means Cindy wasn't there. Possibly somebody else is now standing under those rocks. Or she's now standing under an impenetrable force shell. A sufficiently well-defended wizard can't readily be killed by much short of epic magic or having a deity wipe her out with Alter Reality or whatever that lesser power of life and death Divine Ability is.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 07:41 PM
Not good enough. Death usually doe snot prevent ressurection. Spheres of Annihilation do.

Spheres of Annihilation fall, Cindy dies, and there's now a hole in the building and planet where they fell.

Fair enough?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:45 PM
True. Tso Cindy is now running away from all the DM-Cindys and is NOT ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE CAMPAIGN. Plus, Once the DM-Cindys come within 120 ft, a reactive counterspell will cancel your teleportation. Besides, you might not win INITIATIVE against all 10 Dm-Cindys. Every Cindy has Celerity. you wanna bet who the DM rules will go first? I'd rule that the celerities all cancel each other out and all Cindys are in a mini time-stop, getting a round all to themselves.

Also, there are some cleric spells that prevent teleportation within a certain radius. Use Enlarge on one of those Zone of Respite (I think), and go within 120 feet and Cindy can't run.

The DM, being the DM, is entitled to see your character sheet. From there, it'snot hard to see your strategy, given the spells you've prepared.

Oh yeah, Mind-blank doesn't block true seeing. I think Non-detection has a chance. And remember, the DM makes the rules.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:47 PM
It kind of is, if you're trying to work within the mechanics and not declaring a fiat death/removal of a troublesome character. Foresight and immediate actions means Cindy wasn't there.

ALL the DM-Cindys have Celerity and Foresight as well. They ALL cast Celerity. They ALL get an extra round...at the same time as PC Cindy does. I believe it's a pretty fair ruling to have 2 wizards with Celerity and Foresight to go at the same time if they both try to cast Celerity.

Also, how many Celeritys and Teleports do you think Cindy has prepared in a day? Eventually she'll run out and the rocks/Sphere of Annihilation will fall on her anyways.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 07:51 PM
Or the far less troublesome "No, try again, with less cheese" when Tippy introduces the character sheet at the table the first time..

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 07:52 PM
True. Tso Cindy is now running away from all the DM-Cindys and is NOT ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE CAMPAIGN. Plus, Once the DM-Cindys come within 120 ft, a reactive counterspell will cancel your teleportation. Besides, you might not win INITIATIVE against all 10 Dm-Cindys. Every Cindy has Celerity. you wanna bet who the DM rules will go first? I'd rule that the celerities all cancel each other out and all Cindys are in a mini time-stop, getting a round all to themselves.

Also, there are some cleric spells that prevent teleportation within a certain radius. Use Enlarge on one of those Zone of Respite (I think), and go within 120 feet and Cindy can't run.

The DM, being the DM, is entitled to see your character sheet. From there, it'snot hard to see your strategy, given the spells you've prepared.

Oh yeah, Mind-blank doesn't block true seeing. I think Non-detection has a chance. And remember, the DM makes the rules.

My point is that to "run" from all the Cindys he would have to run into them first, and then he could just leave and go do something else with his time.

The DM will have plenty of time to focus on him since the DM Cindys will have just annihilated the rest of the party.

The likelyhood of actually being within 120ft of Cindy with any given DM Cindy is practically non-existent, especially because if done right, no one ever needs to even know about her existence. Everyone may believe that the rest of the party is accomplishing all the things that Cindy is doing, since no one has ever seen any evidence of Cindy at all.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:54 PM
My point is that to "run" from all the Cindys he would have to run into them first, and then he could just leave and go do something else with his time.

The DM will have plenty of time to focus on him since the DM Cindys will have just annihilated the rest of the party.

The likelyhood of actually being within 120ft of Cindy with any given DM Cindy is practically non-existent, especially because if done right, no one ever needs to even know about her existence. Everyone may believe that the rest of the party is accomplishing all the things that Cindy is doing, since no one has ever seen any evidence of Cindy at all.

Actually no, the DM-Cindys will ignore the rest of the party, because the rest of the party isn'tmade out of cheese (in theory). DM-cindys dedicate their time combind the multiverse looking for PC-Cindy. If need be, they will create/recruit more DM-Cindys.

If Cindy spends all the time running away, then she isn't really in the game anyways, so mission accomplished.

Also, I am sure some extra DM-Cindy can spare the time to research a spell that defeats Mindblank.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 08:01 PM
Actually no, the DM-Cindys will ignore the rest of the party, because the rest of the party isn'tmade out of cheese (in theory). DM-cindys dedicate their time combind the multiverse looking for PC-Cindy. If need be, they will create/recruit more DM-Cindys.

If Cindy spends all the time running away, then she isn't really in the game anyways, so mission accomplished.

Also, I am sure some extra DM-Cindy can spare the time to research a spell that defeats Mindblank.

SO at this point you are copying the character sheet of a player exactly, then making a infinite number of these (the number actually needed to realistically force Cindy to be "running" for more then 3 seconds.) And then inventing a spell that overcomes Mindblank, all to kill off a character.

Do you not see how pointless this is? If you aren't capable of dealing with the character, then you aren't capable of dealing with her. The fact that you would have to completely destroy and world credibility at all just in order to kill her is precisely the point. You can't kill Cindy once you allow her in the world, and no where is she breaking any rules. This proves the point that Cindy exists to make.

tyckspoon
2008-04-14, 08:02 PM
If you're that determined to have Cindy dead, have a deity target her with Life And Death. Simple, quick, unavoidable, unreversable by anything the players can reasonably do. Certainly less disruptive than going through this charade of having hundreds of aleaxes combing the Prime Material to find one person.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 08:03 PM
This proves the point that Cindy exists to make.

That DnD is broken as hell, in ways Wizards probably did not intend and that leave non-Casters as complete periphery objects?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:04 PM
SO at this point you are copying the character sheet of a player exactly, then making a infinite number of these (the number actually needed to realistically force Cindy to be "running" for more then 3 seconds.) And then inventing a spell that overcomes Mindblank, all to kill off a character.

Do you not see how pointless this is? If you aren't capable of dealing with the character, then you aren't capable of dealing with her. The fact that you would have to completely destroy and world credibility at all just in order to kill her is precisely the point. You can't kill Cindy once you allow her in the world, and no where is she breaking any rules. This proves the point that Cindy exists to make.

Screw world credibility. I'm saying, she is not following the rules as intended as I, and most everyone I know, see it, so if she is ever in one of my gmes somehow, she will die or be made irrelevant.

it's just like the Crusader infinaite damage trick. Not gonna happen in a real game.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:06 PM
If you're that determined to have Cindy dead, have a deity target her with Life And Death. Simple, quick, unavoidable, unreversable by anything the players can reasonably do. Certainly less disruptive than going through this charade of having hundreds of aleaxes combing the Prime Material to find one person.

But it's more fun to chase her around with copies of herself. To frustrate the impudent player brazen enough to try to bring Cindy into a game. Dear gods people. Wizards are broken enough as is. You don't need to read Arcane Thesis that way. I mean, unless your campaign goal is to kill off Asmodeus or some other ridiculous thing, please think of the other players and party balance!

Rutee
2008-04-14, 08:08 PM
I say you just turn the player away right off the bat. Chasing the wizard with copies may frustrate the wizard player, but it takes away attention from the actual players.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:10 PM
I say you just turn the player away right off the bat. Chasing the wizard with copies may frustrate the wizard player, but it takes away attention from the actual players.

Agreed, unless the other players also want to see the player of Cindy chastisted, at which point they can join in the fun.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-14, 08:12 PM
Agreed, unless the other players also want to see the player of Cindy chastisted, at which point they can join in the fun.

So in other words, instead of this being a game for the enjoyment of all, its a competition to see whose the biggest A@@. Nice. You win. Congratulations.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:13 PM
So in other words, instead of this being a game for the enjoyment of all, its a competition to see whose the biggest A@@. Nice.

The moment a Cindy is brought into most campaigns, there is already a destruction of fun for the other players. Same thing with Planar Sheperds. If a player disregards the concerns of the other players and those of the Dm about power levels and balance, then who is the one being an ass?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 08:13 PM
Cindy (and her contemporaries and betters) are only meant to be used in games where the DM explicitly wants uber powerful characters. It's what she was created for, and the only reason I bring her up in wizard balance threads/challenges is because I happen to have her character sheet handy and it generally accomplishes my objective.

If the DM allowed something like Cindy in a game that wasn't explicitly at that power level I would most likely just leave because the DM is a spineless wonder and he will be walked all over during game play.

Cindy is RAW and RAI though.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:16 PM
If the DM allowed something like Cindy in a game that wasn't explicitly at that power level I would most likely just leave because the DM is a spineless wonder and he will be walked all over during game play.
Good for you. :smallsmile: Altough perhaps not a spineless wonder. Possibly a newbie.



Cindy is RAW and RAI though.
I agree with RAW, but I seriously doubt RAI. I mean, do you seriously think the designers of Arcane Thesis would've wanted Cindy to be able to do that?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-14, 08:17 PM
The moment a Cindy is brought into most campaigns, there is already a destruction of fun for the other players. Same thing with Planar Sheperds. If a player disregards the concerns of the other players and those of the Dm about power levels and balance, then who is the one being an ass?

First off, look at Emperor Tippy's post. Secondly, why didn't you just tell them no in the first place, instead of letting them bring the character in, getting ready to play, end then being told that their character will die no matter what they do? Do just hate them so something?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:20 PM
First off, look at Emperor Tippy's post. Secondly, why didn't you just tell them no in the first place, instead of letting them bring the character in, getting ready to play, end then being told that their character will die no matter what they do? Do just hate them so something?

I did read his post, which is after mine, remember. And I applaud him for his post. Now, I *do* tell a player "no" and that is usually enough as I help him build a charcter more suitable for the campaign. However, if that player keeps on asking and insisting, then the rest of the group brings on the humiliation and hate to bring the player in line. Either the player shapes up and plays something more at the power level of the campaign, or he leaves. Either way is fine.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 08:21 PM
That DnD is broken as hell, in ways Wizards probably did not intend and that leave non-Casters as complete periphery objects?

No, that D&D can be played at many different power levels, some of which leave all non-casters and 95% of caster builds useless. And some of which leave 30% of caster builds and 60% of non-caster builds useless, and some of which leave 90% of everything as overpowered.

I would be comfortable trying to DM a game with Cindy if I could get 3 other people who were willing to play at that power level. I won't if everyone else is going to play lower power then that. It's that simple.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 08:24 PM
Inasmuch as you can call Cindy "Functioning", I suppose DnD does 'function' at multiple levels of power.

Too bad just playing the classes as written will generally produce one single party where people are on so many different levels of power.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 08:24 PM
I would be comfortable trying to DM a game with Cindy if I could get 3 other people who were willing to play at that power level. I won't if everyone else is going to play lower power then that. It's that simple.

Sweet. I already have another player who is willing. Just have to find a third and possibly a fourth. Who wants to play an Archivist, we could use a healer. Another Incantatrix would be nice as well, better buffing fun.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:26 PM
Inasmuch as you can call Cindy "Functioning", I suppose DnD does 'function' at multiple levels of power.

Too bad just playing the classes as written will generally produce one single party where people are on so many different levels of power.

I think what Rutee means to say is that it's hard to have a functioning and balanced party with Cindy because of the inherent high-powered-ness of wizards, incantatrixes, planar shepherd, etc. Most power-levels can't handle a Cindy. Kinda sucks if you rarely, ever, get to play Cindy because DMs say no.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 08:34 PM
Sweet. I already have another player who is willing. Just have to find a third and possibly a fourth. Who wants to play an Archivist, we could use a healer. Another Incantatrix would be nice as well, better buffing fun.

Well an Archivist, Cindy, Planar Shepard, Maybe another Incantatrix (possibly a Wu-Jen one, have you looked at the spell that creates duplicates of yourself that have all your (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) abilities? That could be great for an Incantatrix that has 200 or so attempts at Metamagic effect and Cooperative Metamagic.) would be a good party all contributing. The problem is what am I going to do to challenge you?

Also, No Gate or Wish cheese, sorry. I'll have enough trouble as is.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 08:35 PM
No, what I'm saying is the system is only peripherally equipped to handle Cindy as an /entity/ in the first place. Then you have to /challenge/ her. Which is pretty much going to just be more casters, no?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 08:41 PM
Well an Archivist, Cindy, Planar Shepard, Maybe another Incantatrix (possibly a Wu-Jen one, have you looked at the spell that creates duplicates of yourself that have all your (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) abilities? That could be great for an Incantatrix that has 200 or so attempts at Metamagic effect and Cooperative Metamagic.) would be a good party all contributing.
Yeah, I've seen the Wu-Jen fun in play but I don't have a character sheet even partially finished for it. And I do have Akkarin and Cindy. Karsh would play Cindy, I would play Akkarin. Then we need an Archivist and something else, Planar Shepard could be fun.


The problem is what am I going to do to challenge you?
No idea. Why do you think I'm not DMing something like this.


Also, No Gate or Wish cheese, sorry. I'll have enough trouble as is.
Oh well. GateRape can get pretty boring, although it can be quite fun if you don't abuse it (grab a kitty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/sirrush.htm) instead of a prismatic dragon for instance).

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:47 PM
Epic spellcasters and minor deities would probably be level-appropriate encounters. Fight some Aspects of Mephistolees as warm ups or something.

Aquillion
2008-04-14, 10:36 PM
The point is that Warmages have access to some no-sucky spells, and therefore insta win against Fighters. We are trying to determine who wins with only the suckiest spells allowed.
Ok, here's my challenge. It's not intended to prove anything, it's just for fun.

120-foot radius circle. Indoors. Nothing in it but the solid nonmagical stone ground, which extends downwards indefinitely beneath them, the two combatants, and their WBL-appropriate equipment. The contestants can have equipment that boosts basic stats and statistics, such as CL, or things that boost without broadening their spellcasting (e.g. pearls of power), but nothing that casts spells not on the approved list or causes effects not represented on the approved list when used or anything like that... no scrolls of spells they aren't allowed to cast, say, or rings or other items to grant effects they can't produce beyond straight bonuses (no flying or invisibility, for instance.) Likewise, no tricky business with feats, races, alternate class features or other abilities -- the only ones allowed are ones that basically mimic or boost the effects existing spells on the allowed list, without radically altering their effects (no locate city bombs, no flying races.) Both characters are level 20.

Wizard is limited to the following spells:
All cantrips, Disguise Self, Hold Portal, Alarm, Endure Elements, the first-level alignment-based Protection from XYZ spells for any alignment the fighter isn't, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, Mount, Magic Aura, Ventriloquism, Erase, Feather Fall, Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Continual Flame, Magic Mouth, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, Spectral Hand, Whispering Wind, Knock, Nondetection, Arcane Sight, Tongues, Tiny Hut, Illusory Script, Gentle Repose, Secret Page, Shrink Item, Water Breathing, Dimensional Anchor, Fire Trap, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Minor Creation, Secure Shelter, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Mnemonic Enhancer (for spells on this list only), Mage’s Private Sanctum, Secret Chest, Contact Other Plane, Prying Eyes, Telepathic Bond, Mind Fog, Sending, Dream, False Vision, Fabricate, Passwall, Transmute Mud to Rock (but not the opposite), Permanency, Antimagic Field, Guards and Wards, Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore, True Seeing, Control Water, Move Earth, Stone to Flesh, Spell Turning, Instant Summons (but no object is prepared), Greater Arcane Sight, Vision, Control Weather, Dimensional Lock, Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Discern Location, and, just for the heck of it, Time Stop.

They can also have any spell that is totally unable to affect the fighter due to their HD (e.g. sleep). HD-based spells like this which would partially affect them are not allowed under this rule.

Of course, not all spells are prepared; that's just the list the wizard can pick from. Wizard has no spells in effect when the fight starts, but is assumed to win initiative. (Otherwise, it comes down to arguing over who would win that again... we've given them enough restrictions to keep it interesting, so they get one advantage.)

Wizard has no allies they can call upon, anywhere; nor anyone they can otherwise expect to come to their aid in any form if contacted.

That list has a lot of useful spells (I can see several possibilities -- I keep thinking of spells I should have taken out, oh well), but only a few obvious win-buttons in the situation described. If you find one of the wins, try again with one of the spells you used to win removed, of your choice. Try to find as many wins as possible using different spells.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 11:04 PM
Ok, here's my challenge. It's not intended to prove anything, it's just for fun.

120-foot radius circle. Indoors. Nothing in it but the solid nonmagical stone ground, which extends downwards indefinitely beneath them, the two combatants, and their WBL-appropriate equipment. The contestants can have equipment that boosts basic stats and statistics, such as CL, or things that boost without broadening their spellcasting (e.g. pearls of power), but nothing that casts spells not on the approved list or causes effects not represented on the approved list when used or anything like that... no scrolls of spells they aren't allowed to cast, say, or rings or other items to grant effects they can't produce beyond straight bonuses (no flying or invisibility, for instance.) Likewise, no tricky business with feats, races, alternate class features or other abilities -- the only ones allowed are ones that basically mimic or boost the effects existing spells on the allowed list, without radically altering their effects (no locate city bombs, no flying races.) Both characters are level 20.

Wizard is limited to the following spells:
All cantrips, Disguise Self, Hold Portal, Alarm, Endure Elements, the first-level alignment-based Protection from XYZ spells for any alignment the fighter isn't, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, Mount, Magic Aura, Ventriloquism, Erase, Feather Fall, Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Continual Flame, Magic Mouth, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, Spectral Hand, Whispering Wind, Knock, Nondetection, Arcane Sight, Tongues, Tiny Hut, Illusory Script, Gentle Repose, Secret Page, Shrink Item, Water Breathing, Dimensional Anchor, Fire Trap, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Minor Creation, Secure Shelter, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Mnemonic Enhancer (for spells on this list only), Mage’s Private Sanctum, Secret Chest, Contact Other Plane, Prying Eyes, Telepathic Bond, Mind Fog, Sending, Dream, False Vision, Fabricate, Passwall, Transmute Mud to Rock (but not the opposite), Permanency, Antimagic Field, Guards and Wards, Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore, True Seeing, Control Water, Move Earth, Stone to Flesh, Spell Turning, Instant Summons (but no object is prepared), Greater Arcane Sight, Vision, Control Weather, Dimensional Lock, Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Discern Location, and, just for the heck of it, Time Stop.

They can also have any spell that is totally unable to affect the fighter due to their HD (e.g. sleep). HD-based spells like this which would partially affect them are not allowed under this rule.

Of course, not all spells are prepared; that's just the list the wizard can pick from. Wizard has no spells in effect when the fight starts, but is assumed to win initiative. (Otherwise, it comes down to arguing over who would win that again... we've given them enough restrictions to keep it interesting, so they get one advantage.)

Wizard has no allies they can call upon, anywhere; nor anyone they can otherwise expect to come to their aid in any form if contacted.

That list has a lot of useful spells (I can see several possibilities -- I keep thinking of spells I should have taken out, oh well), but only a few obvious win-buttons in the situation described. If you find one of the wins, try again with one of the spells you used to win removed, of your choice. Try to find as many wins as possible using different spells.

Grab 5 levels of Archmage and take Reach Spell for all your High Arcana
Fill all your 9th level spell slots with Timestop.
Prepare 1 Move Earth and 7 Passwalls.

Cast Timestop.
Cast Passwall directly below the fighter.
Cast Timestop.
Cast Passwall to make the hole below the fighter deeper.
Cast Timestop.
Cast Passwall to make the hole below the fighter deeper.
Cast Timestop.
Cast Passwall to make the hole below the fighter deeper (repeat until out of passwalls).

The fighter should now be standing at the bottom of a hole 175 feet deep.

Now cast move earth to fill said hole with earth.

The fighter is buried under 175 feet of earth for the next 20 hours (longer if you use items to boost your CL).

tyckspoon
2008-04-14, 11:09 PM
No actual Earth to Move- it's stone all the way down. However, since the terms also forbid any items the Fighter could reasonably use to get out of such a deep pit, I would consider that a win for the mage. He just has to stay far enough away from the edge that the Fighter doesn't have line of sight to try shooting him with.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 11:11 PM
Is Eschew Materials->Fabricate allowed? That would be fun, basically same idea, but Fabricate a bunch of water then move Earth.

Aquillion
2008-04-14, 11:30 PM
Actually, you probably don't even need Timestop. Just high arcana of reach spell + Passwall, and you can dump them in a 25-foot pit if you can get close enough. If you assume the walls of a passwall are smooth, it can't be climbed, and the fighter actually has no way out of even a 25-foot pit.

Now, without passwall it would be harder. I don't think there's any other catastrophic terrain-alteration spells left on the list (I noticed Passwall just after putting it in, but decided to leave it.)

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 11:37 PM
Actually, you probably don't even need Timestop. Just high arcana of reach spell + Passwall, and you can dump them in a 25-foot pit if you can get close enough. If you assume the walls of a passwall are smooth, it can't be climbed, and the fighter actually has no way out of even a 25-foot pit.

Now, without passwall it would be harder. I don't think there's any other catastrophic terrain-alteration spells left on the list (I noticed Passwall just after putting it in, but decided to leave it.)

Maybe he can jump real well.

Well if we can't use Move Earth then just cast Endure Elements and Tiny Hut and then use Control Weather (if its winter) to cast Frigid Cold or a Blizzard.

Else just repeatedly cast mount, have them run into the hole and fall on the fighter. Then dismiss the horse and repeat until the fighter is dead do too falling horses.

tyckspoon
2008-04-14, 11:44 PM
Indoors fight; Control Weather is no good unless you Passwall an access point through the ceiling or one of the walls.. which would be pretty stylish. I like the suicidal horses plan; presumably you have a good Handle Animal and/or Ride check to force them over the edge (I don't think 'willingly and well' covers self-destructive actions; it doesn't for Charmed stuff.)

JupiterJazz
2008-04-14, 11:49 PM
I'm making a fighter to go against any damaging wizard you want, go a head deck your wizard out at 760,000 gp worth of gear, from any D&D 3.5 book. No artifacts. No HD based or instant kill spells, other then that go for it. Max gp for one item is 1/4th of total gp. Both combatants will start aware of each other, 60 ft apart, the wizard may have any 2 buffs already cast that has a duration of more then 1 minute per level, any 3 permancy spells as stated in the spell info or on the permancy list, or crafted items and they will lower your level to 19 or possibly lower, both start at exact experience for level 20. Each spell not in the core books that you use should have the book and page number next to it, and each metamagic, and normal feats not in core books should as well. We'll not post our sheets public, instead we'll each pick one person, and both of them will get a copy of each character.

The battle will start in two days 9 pm EST as an arena type game players will settle it out with no DM. Character sheets are due tomorrow at exactly 9 pm EST.

Edit: one last thing, no starmantle cloak. seriously. that isn't even a viable item.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 12:29 AM
I'm making a fighter to go against any damaging wizard you want, go a head deck your wizard out at 760,000 gp worth of gear, from any D&D 3.5 book. No artifacts. No HD based or instant kill spells, other then that go for it. Max gp for one item is 1/4th of total gp. Both combatants will start aware of each other, 60 ft apart, the wizard may have any 2 buffs already cast that has a duration of more then 1 minute per level, any 3 permancy spells as stated in the spell info or on the permancy list, or crafted items and they will lower your level to 19 or possibly lower, both start at exact experience for level 20. Each spell not in the core books that you use should have the book and page number next to it, and each metamagic, and normal feats not in core books should as well. We'll not post our sheets public, instead we'll each pick one person, and both of them will get a copy of each character.

The battle will start in two days 9 pm EST as an arena type game players will settle it out with no DM. Character sheets are due tomorrow at exactly 9 pm EST.

Edit: one last thing, no starmantle cloak. seriously. that isn't even a viable item.

See Cindy. Buffs are Persistent Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons) and Shapechange (into a choker)

Greater Celerity, Disjunction, Quickened Uber Orb of Death, Orb of Death (Choker Quickness).

Your dead.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 12:35 AM
See Cindy. Buffs are Persistent Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons) and Shapechange (into a choker)

Greater Celerity, Disjunction, Quickened Uber Orb of Death, Orb of Death (Choker Quickness).

Your dead.

One small mistake. Greater Celerity does not grant you a Swift action to use. Hence, you can only do two out of the 3 spells.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 12:40 AM
One small mistake. Greater Celerity does not grant you a Swift action to use. Hence, you can only do two out of the 3 spells.

Meh, he should still be dead seeing as he can't get Immunity to Cold.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 12:49 AM
He can't? Thanks to your feats you mean?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 12:56 AM
He can't? Thanks to your feats you mean?

I think he means that there is no item to grant immunity to cold, and only by taking some pretty crappy LA (like Half Dragon) would he even be able to get it.

And of course, all spells and most items are removed by Disjunction.

Though Tippy, shouldn't you have Foresight as one of your Persistent buffs, seeing as otherwise you have to actually win initiative.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 12:58 AM
He can't? Thanks to your feats you mean?

What non epic items give immunity to cold? I can't think of any. And because of Piercing Cold, cold resistance doesn't do anything.

And depending on the DM you can Mastery of Elements it into a Sonic spell. Whether or not you get to keep Piercing Cold on the Orb is debatable.

Solo
2008-04-15, 12:59 AM
Is Eschew Materials->Fabricate allowed? That would be fun, basically same idea, but Fabricate a bunch of water then move Earth.

Hehehe... Eschew Materials + Major Creation + Anti-Osmium


I'm making a fighter to go against any damaging wizard you want

685 quadrillion damage.

Reflex save for half.

Hope you have a Ring of Evasion. That could help.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 01:04 AM
I think he means that there is no item to grant immunity to cold, and only by taking some pretty crappy LA (like Half Dragon) would he even be able to get it.

And of course, all spells and most items are removed by Disjunction.
Well most spells and items are removed.


Though Tippy, shouldn't you have Foresight as one of your Persistent buffs, seeing as otherwise you have to actually win initiative.
Hmm. Yeah I suppose. Replace Ironguard with Foresight.

Although it would be interesting to see what he does if I just kept Ironguard on. His wacks wouldn't do anything.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:06 AM
I think he means that there is no item to grant immunity to cold, and only by taking some pretty crappy LA (like Half Dragon) would he even be able to get it.

And of course, all spells and most items are removed by Disjunction.

Though Tippy, shouldn't you have Foresight as one of your Persistent buffs, seeing as otherwise you have to actually win initiative.

You are assuming that the Disjunction will always work. The fighter *can* make his will save. Especially outside of Core. You're probably better off hitting him with two metamagic'ed orbs of force. I'm sure two of those will kill a fighter.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:08 AM
Well most spells and items are removed.


Hmm. Yeah I suppose. Replace Ironguard with Foresight.

Although it would be interesting to see what he does if I just kept Ironguard on. His wacks wouldn't do anything.

Can't he just use a non-metal weapon? Quarterstaves are quite good to be honest.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 01:11 AM
You are assuming that the Disjunction will always work. The fighter *can* make his will save. Especially outside of Core. You're probably better off hitting him with two metamagic'ed orbs of force. I'm sure two of those will kill a fighter.

The fighter doesn't make a save:

All spells are instantly removed, no-save.

All magic items make a save (at the attended bonus if better then their own) or are stripped of magic.

The spells being removed is a no-save effect, and there aren't any Cold Immune granting items that I know of.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 01:13 AM
You are assuming that the Disjunction will always work. The fighter *can* make his will save. Especially outside of Core. You're probably better off hitting him with two metamagic'ed orbs of force. I'm sure two of those will kill a fighter.

Nah, your better off using Mastery of Elements to change it from Cold to Sonic.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:21 AM
The fighter doesn't make a save:

All spells are instantly removed, no-save.

All magic items make a save (at the attended bonus if better then their own) or are stripped of magic.

The spells being removed is a no-save effect, and there aren't any Cold Immune granting items that I know of.

I can craft an item that has a constant effect of Energy Immunity for a fair price. And I suppose I can have multiple of these, once for every element, including sonic. Still, Force will pwn the Fighter.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 01:24 AM
I can craft an item that has a constant effect of Energy Immunity for a fair price. And I suppose I can have multiple of these, once for every element, including sonic.
No you can't. It already exists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#energyImmunity) and its epic.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 01:30 AM
And even if you did have immunity, all it takes is 2 orbs to kill you.

So use Ocular spell to fire two rays, or use both Choker actions to fire rays. And that's assuming he uses custom items that are what, an eighth the cost of the epic item, but do the same thing.

Talic
2008-04-15, 01:43 AM
Or Avasculate (Rod of quicken)
Avasculate

One of buffs:
Contingency: Dimension door if anyone attempts to attack.

Next round, go power word: kill, or, if you want to go for the non insta-kill insta-kill, then:

Avasculate (Rod of Quicken)
Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize Magic Missile (27 min damage, 31 average)

This is guaranteed to stagger anything with 216 hp. It will, on average, drop a target with 248 HP.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 03:32 AM
You're wrong, energy immune armor and shields, DMG2 you can pick any element as an immediate action you get Immunity, plus with my build I would have had close to or over +30 initiative, and 18 attacks per round, plus a two round timestop. Not sure how ironguard works, but if I'd have had elemental damages on my weapons you could have still died if they can still affect you.

What book would I find Ironguard in?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 03:52 AM
You're wrong, energy immune armor and shields, DMG2 you can pick any element as an immediate action you get Immunity, plus with my build I would have had close to or over +30 initiative, and 18 attacks per round, plus a two round timestop. Not sure how ironguard works, but if I'd have had elemental damages on my weapons you could have still died if they can still affect you.
First you have to survive the disjunction.

Then comes the Orb of Death. Mastery of the Elements makes it Sonic damage and that armor only works against Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid Damage.

As for Ironguard, no metal weapon can hurt me. That means none of its enhancement bonuses do anything either, they are part of the metal weapon.


What book would I find Ironguard in?
Spell Compendium.


So it goes: Greater Celerity, Disjunction, Mastery of Elements: Sonic Orb of Death.

Take at least 390 damage and 2 negative levels (no save, no sr) and make 2 fort saves or be dazed for the next round.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 04:12 AM
Heh, ironwood weapons, and +30 initiative.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 04:16 AM
Heh, ironwood weapons, and +30 initiative.Greater Celerity, foresight, any of the 20 spells that boost initiative.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 04:19 AM
Limit of two buffs.

Chronicled
2008-04-15, 04:24 AM
Limit of two buffs.

Nerveskitter, a level 1 Initiative-increasing spell, is an immediate action cast. Not that it matters since Foresight is the only real buff needed, and coupled with Celerity or Greater Celerity mean that your fighter's intiative modifier doesn't matter--the wizard will go first (and cast Timestop).

Edit: Somehow got it into my head that Celerity was a buff.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 04:42 AM
Heh, ironwood weapons, and +30 initiative.

You don't get it do you? You do not get to act. At all.

Foresight+Greater Celerity means that I go first, no matter what your initiative is.

Then I get 2 standard actions thanks to being Shapechanged into a Choker. Now I whack you with a Disjunction (or better yet a chained greater dispel magic targeting each of your magic items) followed by an Orb of Death that deals Sonic damage because of Mastery of Shaping.

You now take 390 damage, 2 negative levels, and have to make 2 fort saves or be dazed. Thats the minimum damage dealt. It's exactly enough to drop a level 20 fighter with 30 Con to 0 HP in 1 hit.

--------
And if you want to get into the initiative pumping game:
Improved Initiative: +4
Hummingbird Familiar: +4
Natural Link: +4 (Doubles my familiars benefit)
Neverskitter: +5
Moment of Prescience: +25
28 Dex (18+2+6+2): +8

Thats a +50 or exactly enough that I beat your plus 30 even if I roll a 1 and you roll a 20.

And if I was inclined I could pump it higher. Just starting as an Elder Air Elemental means my Dex starts at 33.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 04:43 AM
Limit of two buffs.

Yes, Foresight and Shapechange.

Greater Celerity is not a buff. Neither is disjunction. Or a chained greater dispel magic. And if you want to complain that those spells don't deal damage, I can make them deal damage if I have to.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 04:43 AM
Nerveskitter, a level 1 Initiative-increasing spell, is an immediate action cast. Not that it matters since Foresight/Celerity are the only two buffs needed, and mean that your fighter's intiative modifier doesn't matter--the wizard will go first (and cast Timestop).

You know this can go on forever. I could just as simply get scrolls of those spells and take 20 on UMD.

Edit: My point is that I can very well counter, accomplish anything a wizard can with the right items, and I can build anything to do it. No matter how much people complain about wizards being unbalanced it gets to the point in this game where with knowledge of the game you can put every character on equal footing, seeing that your character is not a pure wizard but multiclassed, I could easily match your capability with a couple classes of rogue just for the sole purpose of skill points, and in this hypothetical OOC mode that we keep putting it in. Everyone can be equal, buffs for spell casters are truly meant for when they know they are coming into an encounter, and to assume you are out walking and keep recasting buffs everytime they run out well then I can match this line of thinking.

Nebo_
2008-04-15, 04:46 AM
You know this can go on forever. I could just as simply get scrolls of those spells and take 20 on UMD.

How, exactly? You can't take 20 on UMD.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 04:52 AM
You know this can go on forever. I could just as simply get scrolls of those spells and take 20 on UMD.

Um, no you can't. You can't take 20 on a skill check with bad results if you roll a 1. With UMD a 1 results in a mishap.

And no matter what spells you use, I can use them all (and more effectively for anything dependent on CL) and get a +8 from my familiar. As an Elder Air Elemental my base dex is now 33, meaning that with a +5 item it is higher than you can get yours unless you shapechange into an air elemental as well.

@^
A demon or devil (can never remember which. It's name begins with an I and it is in one of the Fiendish Codex's) has the Item Use Ex ability which means you auto succeed on any UMD check.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 04:54 AM
How, exactly? You can't take 20 on UMD.

Meh my bad it's not a skill I use often, just throw a shard and some rogue multi-class into the mix, I'd only get 16 attacks per round that way still enough to kill cindy with versatility to match.

Chronicled
2008-04-15, 04:55 AM
Edit: My point is that I can very well counter, accomplish anything a wizard can with the right items, and I can build anything to do it. No matter how much people complain about wizards being unbalanced it gets to the point in this game where with knowledge of the game you can put every character on equal footing, seeing that your character is not a pure wizard but multiclassed, I could easily match your capability with a couple classes of rogue just for the sole purpose of skill points, and in this hypothetical OOC mode that we keep putting it in. Everyone can be equal, buffs for spell casters are truly meant for when they know they are coming into an encounter, and to assume you are out walking and keep recasting buffs everytime they run out well then I can match this line of thinking.

I suspect that Sir Giacomo has a second forum account.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 04:57 AM
I suspect that Sir Giacomo has a second forum account.ZING!

(yes I know it wasn't meant as an insult but that's how it came out sounding)

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 04:57 AM
Um, no you can't. You can't take 20 on a skill check with bad results if you roll a 1. With UMD a 1 results in a mishap.

And no matter what spells you use, I can use them all (and more effectively for anything dependent on CL) and get a +8 from my familiar. As an Elder Air Elemental my base dex is now 33, meaning that with a +5 item it is higher than you can get yours unless you shapechange into an air elemental as well.

@^
A demon or devil (can never remember which. It's name begins with an I and it is in one of the Fiendish Codex's) has the Item Use Ex ability which means you auto succeed on any UMD check.

Actually I already have over a 33 dex with this build, and no items with + to init well except for initiative on my weapon from oriental.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 05:09 AM
Meh my bad it's not a skill I use often, just throw a shard and some rogue multi-class into the mix, I'd only get 16 attacks per round that way still enough to kill cindy with versatility to match.

You are attempting to kill a gimped Cindy.

Her day long buffs are as follows:
Shapechange
Superior Invisibility
Mind Blank
Greater Blink
Ironguard
Dragonsight
Fly
Dimension Jumper
True Seeing
Energy Immunity: Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity, Sonic (chained onto my familiar and the 2 guys summoned with Summon Monster 3. twinned onto me (3 from familiar and summons, base, and me)
Greater Heroism
Greater Anticipate Teleport
Haste
Foresight


Her regular form is an Advanced Shadesteel Golem which gives all golem traits, including Immunity to Magic.


------
You are facing a massively gimped Cindy who is 2 levels lower than your fighter (because I have never bothered to advance her from level 18 to level 20).

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 05:13 AM
Actually I already have over a 33 dex with this build, and no items with + to init well except for initiative on my weapon from oriental.

The highest possible dex at level 20 with an LA +0 race is 36.
18 base+2 Race+5 Inherent+6 Gloves of Dex+5 Level up.

As an Air Elemental my base dex is 33 or 3 less than your max possible dex. So with either Cats Grace or Gloves of Dex +4 my Dex is higher than yours.

But all of that is moot because of Foresight+Greater Celerity.

Ramos
2008-04-15, 05:18 AM
Any offence or defence from the fighter is moot in any case. Celerity+forcecage+wind wall on self makes the wizard totally immune to any offence the fighter might mount while the wizard could still attack normally.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 05:19 AM
So which are you? An advanced shadesteel golem or an elder air elemental?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 05:22 AM
So which are you? An advanced shadesteel golem or an elder air elemental?

Either. I can switch as a free action. And seeing as with Greater Celerity or a Belt of Battle (which Cindy does have) initiative doesn't matter I think I'll go with the Shadesteel Golem.

The point is if initiative had any bearing at all on the fight I could get mine higher than yours, no matter what you do.

Ramos
2008-04-15, 05:53 AM
I must point out that golems can't speak and Cindy does not have silent spell :smalltongue:

Talic
2008-04-15, 06:00 AM
Why pull out the small weapons?

Buffs: Foresight, Iron body.
Spells Memorized: Greater Celerity, Time Stop, Shapechange, others to taste.

If win initiative? Time Stop, Shapechange - Ha-Naga. Con Damage of yes, DC of yes. Charm monster of yes, DC of yes. Next, Greater Celerity when you get out of time stop, and charm.

If you lose initiative? greater celerity, time stop, shapechange.

20hd.
120 fly with perfect maneuver.
Nasty Sp abilities.
DR 5/epic (on top of the DR 15/adamant from Iron body)
Other stuff too.

Spells can be handled with a rod of silent.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 06:02 AM
I must point out that neither elementals nor golems can speak and Cindy does not have silent spell :smalltongue:


Air elementals speak Auran, though they rarely choose to do so.

And look at the Stone Golem. No statement that it can't speak or make vocal noises (unlike the other core golems). I can't remember if Shadesteel Golems specify either way.

Ramos
2008-04-15, 06:11 AM
Sorry, my mistake. I edited out the elementals right after I posted (I remembered they spoke despite not breathing) but I'm still not sure about the golems.

Nebo_
2008-04-15, 06:31 AM
No statement that it can't speak or make vocal noises (unlike the other core golems).

Doesn't say you can't != You can.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 07:03 AM
Doesn't say you can't != You can.Yes, but in this case, where it specifically says you can't in similar creatures, but makes no such claims about one specific creature, that at least implies speaking ability.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 07:11 AM
You know this can go on forever. I could just as simply get scrolls of those spells and take 20 on UMD.

Edit: My point is that I can very well counter, accomplish anything a wizard can with the right items, and I can build anything to do it. No matter how much people complain about wizards being unbalanced it gets to the point in this game where with knowledge of the game you can put every character on equal footing, seeing that your character is not a pure wizard but multiclassed, I could easily match your capability with a couple classes of rogue just for the sole purpose of skill points, and in this hypothetical OOC mode that we keep putting it in. Everyone can be equal, buffs for spell casters are truly meant for when they know they are coming into an encounter, and to assume you are out walking and keep recasting buffs everytime they run out well then I can match this line of thinking.

The economy of DnD at high levels is Actions. This is fairly unarguable given this whole arguement is primarily about going first. You can't use a UMD check to turn using a scroll from a standard action back into the type of action the wizard uses to cast it.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion You can have a scroll of Celerity if you want but it's not really useful for much except to sell to a wizard who scribes it into his book and laughs maniacly.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 07:22 AM
Yeah, so what happens when two mages with celerity come up against each other?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 07:28 AM
Yeah, so what happens when two mages with celerity come up against each other?

If both use it then whoever cast it last goes first.

But since without Foresight the fighter starts the fight flatfooted its a moot point for this challenge. Even if he has a Belt of Battle he is dead before he can use it.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 07:31 AM
Notice I said mage.


Edit: And in no way does not having foresight make a fighter start flat-footed unless you where gonna refer to your greater invis, which I already took into account before you even responded to my first post.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 07:43 AM
Notice I said mage.Tippy already answered this, but I'll spell it out.

Roll initiative: Mage 1 gets a 40, Mage 2 gets a 45, Fighter gets a 9,999,999
Mage 1: Casts Celerity
Mage 2: Casts Celerity in response to Mage 1's casting
Fighter: Huh?
Mage 2: Takes Action
Mage 1: Takes Action
Fighter: Uses move action to remove Scroll of Greater Celerity from HHH, standard action to cast it,
Fighter: Takes Action

In other words, second casting goes first.

edit: Everyone starts all combats flatfooted, and remains that way until they take an action.

Nebo_
2008-04-15, 07:45 AM
Yes, but in this case, where it specifically says you can't in similar creatures, but makes no such claims about one specific creature, that at least implies speaking ability.

Not really. The designers hardly look at other books when writing new ones. I think that it's more of an oversight than an implication.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 07:51 AM
Edit: And in no way does not having foresight make a fighter start flat-footed unless you where gonna refer to your greater invis, which I already took into account before you even responded to my first post.

Everyone starts combat flatfooted. A very few abilities change this (i think a few ranger or rogue PrC's do), foresight is one of them. If you are flatfooted you can not use an immediate action, hence no Belt of Battle for your fighter.

And its Superior Invisibility, which is far superior to Greater Invisibility.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 08:26 AM
Tippy already answered this, but I'll spell it out.

Roll initiative: Mage 1 gets a 40, Mage 2 gets a 45, Fighter gets a 9,999,999
Mage 1: Casts Celerity
Mage 2: Casts Celerity in response to Mage 1's casting
Fighter: Huh?
Mage 2: Takes Action
Mage 1: Takes Action
Fighter: Uses move action to remove Scroll of Greater Celerity from HHH, standard action to cast it,
Fighter: Takes Action

In other words, second casting goes first.

edit: Everyone starts all combats flatfooted, and remains that way until they take an action.


And I'll spell it out for you.

"Notice I said mage." -JupiterJazz

As in nothing about a fighter anywhere in my damn question as somebody had already pointed out that casting from a scroll is a standard action, and did not need to be said twice.

@Tippy: My bad I've been up for about 24 hours, completely forgot about that.

Solo
2008-04-15, 08:36 AM
I suspect that Sir Giacomo has a second forum account.

Come now. Given what we know of Sir Giacomo, aren't such base tactics completely beneath him?


Meh my bad it's not a skill I use often, just throw a shard and some rogue multi-class into the mix, I'd only get 16 attacks per round that way still enough to kill cindy with versatility to match.

Of course, you have to actually land those attacks first.


My point is that I can very well counter, accomplish anything a wizard can with the right items, and I can build anything to do it.

Words! Words! Words! I'm so sick of words!
I get words all day through;
First from him, now from you!
Is that all you blighters can do?
Don't talk of what rules will allow;
If you know how, Show me!
Tell me no builds we should admire
If you're on fire, Show me!
Here we are together in the middle of the night!
Don't talk of theories! Just show me you're right!
Anyone who's ever optimized'll tell you that
This is no time for a chat!
Long have our eyes longed for some such
Don't say how much, Show me! Show me!
Don't talk of how Monks are sublime.
Make me no undying vow. Show me now!

Sing me no song! Read me no rhyme!
Don't waste my time, Show me!
Don't talk of items, Don't talk of fireball!
Don't talk at all! Show me!
Never do I ever want to hear another word.
There isn't one I haven't heard.
Here we are together in what ought to be a dream;
Say one more word and I'll scream!
Haven't your heads hungered for proof?
Please don't reproof, Show me! Show me!
Don't wait until wrinkles and lines
Pop out all over my brow,
Show me now!

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 08:54 AM
@Chronicled, Stoopid, Solo: Sorry I'm not the nerd you guys are, I've had a life for the past five years, and for now the only reason I am playing D&D again is because I am on probation. You see I've got a good 50+ books 3.5 and about 20+ 3.0, a time when this crappy ass immediate action didn't exist. These forums are my first interaction with 3.5 rule set despite still buying them over the years. and I could have made a core 3.0 fighter that'd have been able to sweep through any wizard 1v1, and that's what I was basing my idea on. I'm guessing they didn't think too much about immediate, but regardless of that yeah stop acting like your something great because you know more then someone who has just now moved over to 3.5 for like 2 weeks.

Solo
2008-04-15, 08:55 AM
@Chronicled, Stoopid, Solo: Sorry I'm not the nerd you guys are, I've had a life for the past five years, and for now the only reason I am playing D&D again is because I am on probation.

I accept your surrender.


I could have made a core 3.0 fighter that'd have been able to sweep through any wizard 1v1, and that's what I was basing my idea on


You know what happens when you assume.


stop acting like your something great

No.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 08:58 AM
@Chronicled, Stoopid, Solo: Sorry I'm not the nerd you guys are, I've had a life for the past five years, and for now the only reason I am playing D&D again is because I am on probation. You see I've got a good 50+ books 3.5 and about 20+ 3.0, a time when this crappy ass immediate action didn't exist. These forums are my first interaction with 3.5 rule set despite still buying them over the years. and I could have made a core 3.0 fighter that'd have been able to sweep through any wizard 1v1, and that's what I was basing my idea on. I'm guessing they didn't think too much about immediate, but regardless of that yeah stop acting like your something great because you know more then someone who has just now moved over to 3.5 for like 2 weeks.I've only been playing D&D at all for a year. My RP experience is all in other(better) systems. Cut back on the insults, please, and stop acting like you're better than us because you can't remember the rulebooks.

Nebo_
2008-04-15, 09:01 AM
@Chronicled, Stoopid, Solo: Sorry I'm not the nerd you guys are, I've had a life for the past five years, and for now the only reason I am playing D&D again is because I am on probation. You see I've got a good 50+ books 3.5 and about 20+ 3.0, a time when this crappy ass immediate action didn't exist. These forums are my first interaction with 3.5 rule set despite still buying them over the years. and I could have made a core 3.0 fighter that'd have been able to sweep through any wizard 1v1, and that's what I was basing my idea on. I'm guessing they didn't think too much about immediate, but regardless of that yeah stop acting like your something great because you know more then someone who has just now moved over to 3.5 for like 2 weeks.

There's really no need to start insulting people. Fighters couldn't beat wizards in 3.0, either, by the way. If you've only just come to 3.5, then why are you so ardently arguing a point against people who are more more experienced?

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 09:14 AM
An insult is an insult even if it's indirect, you compared me to someone who you obviously view of inferior intelligence way before I insulted anyone of you. I didn't act like I was better then anyone, each one of you threw jabs first I don't care how indirect they where.

@Nebo, and yes they could actually.

Edit: Also I don't care what anyone here thinks of my 'character' in all honesty.

Nebo_
2008-04-15, 09:19 AM
An insult is an insult even if it's indirect, you compared me to someone who you obviously view of inferior intelligence way before I insulted anyone of you. I didn't act like I was better then anyone, each one of you threw jabs first I don't care how indirect they where.

Inferior intelligence is not the same as inferior knowledge. You don't know 3.5 as well as some of the people here. There's nothing wrong with that, just don't try to defend your position if you can't back it up.



@Nebo, and yes they could actually.

Could you show me a build for that, please?

Solo
2008-04-15, 09:23 AM
An insult is an insult even if it's indirect, you compared me to someone who you obviously view of inferior intelligence way before I insulted anyone of you.

The comparison to Sir Giacomo, as far as I can tell, was in jest.

You need a sense of humor.



ps. When you say that you are on probation, do you mean the academic kind or the legal system kind?

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 09:34 AM
If you don't know that you are unable to back it up then you'll still back it up, notice how I dropped the whole fighter thing a couple of hours ago due to the fact that I skimmed through about 16 books looking for new items, and reading new spells and feats and couldn't find nothing. Just because someone tells me there isn't a way to do it I'm not likely to believe them if I don't know them especially when there is almost a countless number of resources to look through.

I certainly will show you a build, not gonna make it right now I've been up for about 27 hours, which is also a sorry explanation as to why I got so hostile on the internet.

@Solo, I don't know Sir Giacomo obviously, and you can't really determine emotions through text so it looks like an insult to me.

And I mean the legal kind.

Chronicled
2008-04-15, 10:26 AM
An insult is an insult even if it's indirect, you compared me to someone who you obviously view of inferior intelligence way before I insulted anyone of you.

Sir Giacomo isn't someone I view as less intelligent; if anything describes him it's persistent. My comparison was due to the fact that you both favor using spell completion items to enable non-spellcasters to compete with casters. Also, as Solo correctly surmised, I was joking; I don't think Sir Giacomo is at all the type to make multiple accounts.

In short, no insult was meant.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 10:45 AM
If there are two Foresighted Wizards going at each other, whoever wins initiative will get to go first. Why? Because the one that lost initiative would have to cast Celerity to go first, and then in response, the one that won initiative would cast Celerity and get an action.

Everyone else freezes in time for a round.

And it's Mastery of Elements, not of Shaping, for turning Orbs into Sonic damage.

In order for a Wizard to lose, the campaign must make unavailable many of the best spells. Remember, the world is created by the DM, and Celerity and Foresight may not exist in your world. In a world where any spell exists, the Wizard wins. Unless a Fighter researches a Feat that can duplicate said spells or something.

Lokey
2008-04-15, 03:07 PM
I could have made a core 3.0 fighter that'd have been able to sweep through any wizard 1v1, and that's what I was basing my idea on.
What would you do against a Spell Dancer with 1000 in every stat?

For 3.5, you want to look up the badly written mage slayer line of feats. SR won't help since the Orb line ignores it, same deal with Anti-Magic Field (wizard can move outside it and then fry you with an Orb metamagiced into next week). Level 18 v. level 20 is a fair chunk of wealth by level, you might be able to buy a win.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-15, 04:02 PM
The economy of DnD at high levels is Actions. This is fairly unarguable given this whole arguement is primarily about going first. You can't use a UMD check to turn using a scroll from a standard action back into the type of action the wizard uses to cast it.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion You can have a scroll of Celerity if you want but it's not really useful for much except to sell to a wizard who scribes it into his book and laughs maniacly.

Rules Comprendruim I believe saidd Swift casting scrolls can be used as as swift actions. It says they are the same as the spell.
While that example is swift, we can infer Immediate if have scroll in hand, right?

Frosty
2008-04-15, 04:07 PM
I believe the Rules Comp said that WANDS work like that. I do not know for sure about Scrolls.

Deepblue706
2008-04-15, 04:30 PM
I could totally beat Cindy with a Fighter. I just need to convince the DM to give me the Mirror Shield. Maybe some bombs for good measure.

Alternatively, one could stop Cindy from being a threat by destroying the three goddess statues, and completely obliterating magic, forever.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-15, 04:36 PM
Why is this still alive?

Whoo, wizards win, just like they've won EVERY OTHER CHALLENGE in history. You wizard-supporters must be so proud of yourselves. Obviously, it must take incredible skill and knowledge to argue in favor of a class that can defeat any level-appropriate encounter while bound, gagged, blinded and naked.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 04:39 PM
We don't claim to have skill, we just claim to be right. And so far we are. Tippy has skill, and so does Solo, but you are probably a better optimizer than me. Despite this, I am right and you are wrong. Accept that, and you will become even better at optimizing. Why the anger, though? The mistake isn't our's, it's WotC's. We are simply promoting knowledge and fighting ignorance.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-15, 04:44 PM
I'm not saying you're not right. I've never said you're not right. However, it is annoying that you are. And that annoyance should be directed at WOTC, however, you're the ones actually pointing it out and close enough to be angry at with any kind of noticeable effect, and so the anger is wrongly directed at you.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 05:45 PM
You wizard-supporters must be so proud of yourselves.

I think their whole point was to *prove* to unbelievers that wizards are completely broken.

Solo
2008-04-15, 07:34 PM
You wizard-supporters must be so proud of yourselves.

Don't know about the others, but I always am.

JupiterJazz
2008-04-15, 08:12 PM
I could totally beat Cindy with a Fighter. I just need to convince the DM to give me the Mirror Shield. Maybe some bombs for good measure.

Alternatively, one could stop Cindy from being a threat by destroying the three goddess statues, and completely obliterating magic, forever.

While you're at it you could go by A Link to the Past, and use the master sword to deflect it back at them.

Thane of Fife
2008-04-15, 08:23 PM
Obviously, it must take incredible skill and knowledge to argue in favor of a class that can defeat any level-appropriate encounter while bound, gagged, blinded and naked.

Alright, optimizers. Is it possible? Can the challenge in this post (beat a Lvl 20fighter using only blasty spells) be accomplished by a blind, gagged, bound, and naked wizard?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-15, 08:29 PM
Alright, optimizers. Is it possible? Can the challenge in this post (beat a Lvl 20fighter using only blasty spells) be accomplished by a blind, gagged, bound, and naked wizard?

As being blind effectively stops all line of sight/effect, I don't think a wizard could do this. In fact, I think that the only class that could do this is the psion, if using this power is allowed:


Synesthete
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Power Points: 1

You receive one kind of sensory input when a different sense is stimulated. In particular, you can either feel light or feel sound. You can shift your stimulated sense between these two options once per round as a swift action. Your senses continue to work normally as well, unless they are impaired for some reason.

Your face must be uncovered to use this power, because it is the skin of your face that acts as the sensory receiver.

If you are feeling light by absorbing ambient light onto your skin, you have your normal visual abilities (except for darkvision), even if your eyes are closed or you are blinded. If your eyes are working normally, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on all Spot and Search checks. While feeling light, you are immune to gaze attacks.

If you are feeling sound by absorbing sound onto your skin and your ears are working normally, the expanded audio input provides you with a +4 circumstance bonus on Listen checks.

Psionic or magical displacement effects, invisibility effects, illusions, and other similar effects confuse your synesthete senses just as they would your normal senses.

You can also use this power to see sound if you are deafened, or hear light if you are blinded, thus removing all penalties associated with either condition (though you gain no bonuses for using the power in this way if you are not deafened or blinded).

Cuddly
2008-04-15, 08:52 PM
What does Cindy do against an opponent that's within 30' or less? Teleport back and open up with spells?

Worira
2008-04-15, 08:53 PM
While you're at it you could go by A Link to the Past, and use the master sword to deflect it back at them.

Real men use the butterfly net.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 09:21 PM
What does Cindy do against an opponent that's within 30' or less? Teleport back and open up with spells?

I would imagine the answer is, kill them with an Orb, kill them with some other spell, Beat on them while Shapechanged, change into a Dragon and breath fire from the relative safety of Ironguard and Superior Invisibility, or about a hundred other options.

My only question is why you think being within 30ft somehow makes her 400 damage orbs less dangerous.


Alright, optimizers. Is it possible? Can the challenge in this post (beat a Lvl 20fighter using only blasty spells) be accomplished by a blind, gagged, bound, and naked wizard?

It's the class that can do it. It's A well built Wizard that can do it, not one confined to blast spells. That's the point, every time a Wizard overcomes a ridiculous challenge another limiting factor is added on.

A real Wizard would just shapechange into something with Blindsight that is of a different size (freeing their hands and mouth) teleport away, pick up a backup spellbook, go find a Cleric to heal the Blindness. And then come back and kill whatever's there.

Or just kill the thing after Shapechanging then teleport away to find a Cleric.

Signmaker
2008-04-15, 09:26 PM
What does Cindy do against an opponent that's within 30' or less? Teleport back and open up with spells?

More like Orb the bejeezus out of them.

Rutee
2008-04-15, 09:28 PM
A real Wizard would just shapechange.
They can prepare a stilled, silent Shapechange? (Yeah, I know sub Polymorph in)

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 09:35 PM
They can prepare a stilled, silent Shapechange? (Yeah, I know sub Polymorph in)

They should already have it up. And actually you just need to use a teleport, DD, the Abjurant Jaunt reserve feat, Dimension Jumper, or most any teleportation effect. An oft forgotten fact, you can choose what objects you bring along.

And you should have the Craft Contingent Spell: Greater Teleport (when I bite my tongue 3 times within a 30 second period).

But with no items, and no non blasting spells its pretty much impossible (although maybe still doable).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 10:13 PM
They can prepare a stilled, silent Shapechange? (Yeah, I know sub Polymorph in)

Or, since even a non-Incantatrix can have Shapechange up for 6-8 hours with one casting, they could use that. Not to mention all the little ways to get out so common to most high level casters.

Grommen
2008-04-15, 10:28 PM
Sorry it took so long to get back with you all. Sadly I have a life and it gets in the way some times.

Vecna. Seem that we will not see eye to eye on a lot of things. Nothing personal. Your quite knowledgeable on the actual rules of the game. I have about 20 years of running Role Playing games though. You name it and I've probably written an adventure for it over the years and GM'ed it. I don't have a perfect recall of the exact rules, and I don't really care too. I'm never going to remember every lasting detail of the game so I read it over and use common sense to determine things. Much easer that way.

I don't have problems with classes because I don't allow problems to happen and my players have been with me for a long time, and we pretty much know what will and will not "fly" in our worlds. If not, abusive characters tend to meat tragic and often memorable deaths. Most of the time my players try something, play around with it for a wile and then move on to something else before it gets out of hand.

I'll give you this much; wizards do look good on paper. But in my world, at least from what I see and hear, my players don't like them. Too much work involved in keeping them alive and looking up spells and all that good crap. Several of the spells mentioned here look quite over powered, and would not be used on a regular basis. You have to remember just because it's published, does not make it valid or playable. Why play a class if your only reason is to wreck the fun for everyone else? I've had far more trouble with simple fighters and mass damage dealing rogues than meteor Swarming, power word kill wizards. Keep in mind that is my world, not yours. Yours might be very different.

This is rambling on a bit so for any one who is still reading this and cares a "Mage Beater" is the following: Legal in my world cause I said so and or no other reason by the way. Check with your local DM for availability and costs.

+5 Greatclub arcane bane. Upon every swing of the wielder it casts greater dispel magic at the intended target. Grants a +10 luck bonus to initiative (just cause we really need this bugger to go first). Three times per day it can cast Mordican's Disjunction, or Anti-Magic Field (for added insult to injury). O ya consider it CL20, 25 INT (even if the wielder is not), telepathic and painted bright green.

Apply with great malice when necessary, works good on Liches by the way.

The above would be the epic level version. Tone down or up to suit your needs.

As far as magic dead regions and items. Anti-Magic Field can be enchanted on an item. I don't see a reason why not. And the Forgotten Realms is littered with Wild and Dead Magic Zones. They are not detectable until you happen across one. Ambushing wizards in a known magical dead zones would be a very well used tactic.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 10:47 PM
You have to remember just because it's published, does not make it valid or playable.

And you have to remember that some DMs don't try to punish their players for building good characters by banning everything that is even remotely useful.


Why play a class if your only reason is to wreck the fun for everyone else?

Because the whole point is that no one is playing the class to wreck the fun for everyone else, they are playing it to have fun themselves, and with good players/DMs it's more fun. The fact that most DMs aren't very good and their first response to the players all building good characters is to start banning things doesn't change the fact that the players where just trying to have fun.


I've had far more trouble with simple fighters and mass damage dealing rogues than meteor Swarming, power word kill wizards. Keep in mind that is my world, not yours. Yours might be very different.

That's not overly surprising, since Meteor Swarming, Power Word Killing Wizard's aren't actually very good.


+5 Greatclub arcane bane. Upon every swing of the wielder it casts greater dispel magic at the intended target. Grants a +10 luck bonus to initiative (just cause we really need this bugger to go first). Three times per day it can cast Mordican's Disjunction, or Anti-Magic Field (for added insult to injury). O ya consider it CL20, 25 INT (even if the wielder is not), telepathic and painted bright green.

Congratulations, your Epic version is pretty pathetic and wouldn't even pose a challenge to my average level 15 Wizard in the hands of most enemies. Never mind my various more powerful ones (for example my average Wizard has no levels in Incantatrix at all).


As far as magic dead regions and items. Anti-Magic Field can be enchanted on an item. I don't see a reason why not. And the Forgotten Realms is littered with Wild and Dead Magic Zones. They are not detectable until you happen across one. Ambushing wizards in a known magical dead zones would be a very well used tactic.

That's great, but Anti Magic Field is incredibly not threatening to most Wizards after the level it is introduced, And the thing about Dead magic zones is you notice them as soon as you enter them, so you just turn around and leave 5ft later.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 10:48 PM
Sorry it took so long to get back with you all. Sadly I have a life and it gets in the way some times.

Vecna. Seem that we will not see eye to eye on a lot of things. Nothing personal. Your quite knowledgeable on the actual rules of the game. I have about 20 years of running Role Playing games though. You name it and I've probably written an adventure for it over the years and GM'ed it. I don't have a perfect recall of the exact rules, and I don't really care too. I'm never going to remember every lasting detail of the game so I read it over and use common sense to determine things. Much easer that way.
Both Vecna and I do that as well.


I don't have problems with classes because I don't allow problems to happen and my players have been with me for a long time, and we pretty much know what will and will not "fly" in our worlds. If not, abusive characters tend to meat tragic and often memorable deaths. Most of the time my players try something, play around with it for a wile and then move on to something else before it gets out of hand.

I'll give you this much; wizards do look good on paper. But in my world, at least from what I see and hear, my players don't like them. Too much work involved in keeping them alive and looking up spells and all that good crap.
To each there own. But you only really have to look up a spell list once and then you can pretty much ignore it. Cindy pretty much never changes her spells prepared. As for keeping them alive, at level 17+ that is easy. And its not to difficult before that either.


Several of the spells mentioned here look quite over powered, and would not be used on a regular basis. You have to remember just because it's published, does not make it valid or playable.
Actually most of the spells mentioned here are just ok. Some combos are overpowered and rounds/level buffs become overpowered when you get to make them last all day but that is a class problem, not a spell problem.


Why play a class if your only reason is to wreck the fun for everyone else? I've had far more trouble with simple fighters and mass damage dealing rogues than meteor Swarming, power word kill wizards. Keep in mind that is my world, not yours. Yours might be very different.
I've never had a problem with a meteor swarming, power word kill wizard. Mainly because none of my players have ever been idiotic enough to run one. Who said that the only reason we play wizards is to wreck others fun? Its not, at least in my case. I play wizards most of the time because I can build them relatively quickly, I know most of the rules by heart, I can easily tweak my power level in game on a day to day basis so I don't overwhelm the party yet still can solo the baddy if a bad run of luck crops up, and I can change my character on a whim with no real problem. A few spell changes and I go from an Orb of Death wielding character to one who is throwing out envenerations instead. Or is playing with pokeballs. Or is messing around with peoples minds. Or is building a city. Etc.


This is rambling on a bit so for any one who is still reading this and cares a "Mage Beater" is the following: Legal in my world cause I said so and or no other reason by the way. Check with your local DM for availability and costs.

+5 Greatclub arcane bane. Upon every swing of the wielder it casts greater dispel magic at the intended target. Grants a +10 luck bonus to initiative (just cause we really need this bugger to go first). Three times per day it can cast Mordican's Disjunction, or Anti-Magic Field (for added insult to injury). O ya consider it CL20, 25 INT (even if the wielder is not), telepathic and painted bright green.

Apply with great malice when necessary, works good on Liches by the way.

The above would be the epic level version. Tone down or up to suit your needs.
Greater Dispel Magic + Shatter. Good bye weapon. And seeing as how you have to get within melee range to hit me with it (which won't happen) it does nothing.

Worira
2008-04-16, 01:25 AM
+5 Greatclub arcane bane. Upon every swing of the wielder it casts greater dispel magic at the intended target. Grants a +10 luck bonus to initiative (just cause we really need this bugger to go first). Three times per day it can cast Mordican's Disjunction, or Anti-Magic Field (for added insult to injury). O ya consider it CL20, 25 INT (even if the wielder is not), telepathic and painted bright green.


That item appears to work out to around 12 million gp, meaning a 39th level character could afford one using pretty much all his money. It also works out around the same price as a headband of intellect +100, I believe.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-16, 03:19 AM
Sorry it took so long to get back with you all. Sadly I have a life and it gets in the way some times.

Great anger I sense in you, hmmm?

[/yoda]