Wait... don't the hobgoblins already have a city?

[Doran]

p197 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html) bottom panel

As already shown, the hobgoblins have a fairly large city, and surrounding valley.
Why then is there is a problem with trade relations with Azure City?

Surely they can trade food from the valley, using the river to get to the sea.

Also if they've left no more than a token guard there, it might make a good base for the rebels/civilians. Musical cities :smallbiggrin:

Of course, Xykon could have burned down the city to prevent anyone from returning there, but it would be unlikely that even HE would be stupid enough to simultaneously cut off the only secure supply source and give cause for extremely wide spread mutiny.

[the_tick_rules]

It was basically a mediocre city in the middle of nowhere. Redcloak has 5th avenue aspirations.

[TigerHunter]

That city is several weeks march through uninhabited wilderness.

[stsasser]

That city gave Xykon his evilgasm.

Of course, he probably hasn't called since...

[Calinero]

lol. The reason Xykon had an evilgasm was the sheer number of troops in the city, not the city itself. The city looked like it had some pretty crappy living conditions.

[jamroar]

p197 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html) bottom panel

As already shown, the hobgoblins have a fairly large city, and surrounding valley.
Why then is there is a problem with trade relations with Azure City?

Surely they can trade food from the valley, using the river to get to the sea.

Also if they've left no more than a token guard there, it might make a good base for the rebels/civilians. Musical cities :smallbiggrin:

Of course, Xykon could have burned down the city to prevent anyone from returning there, but it would be unlikely that even HE would be stupid enough to simultaneously cut off the only secure supply source and give cause for extremely wide spread mutiny.

I'm thinking Redcloak blew another chance of establishing a goblin nation through hard work instead of trying to gamble with everyone else's existence when he became supreme leader of the hobgoblin horde and a well defended citadel while Xykon was helpless regenerating.

It'd be pretty ironic if Hinjo founds his base of operations in the depopulated hobgoblin city.

Also, about the hobgoblins

Does anyone think Jirix is actually the former hobgoblin supreme leader, and is actually eager to see Redcloak and Xykon leave so he that can seize back control and desert en masse, which explains why he doesn't actually care if they can secure the city logistics?

[Voyager_I]

Coastal access = Wealth

...to put it simply. Without counting in anything we don't outright know, going from a city that's landlocked like Utah and walled off behind undeveloped mountains to one of the premier trading ports in the world is a massive improvement.

I'd say it's also fairly safe to assume that the region around Azure City is much more fertile/wealthy/whatever you want than their old mountain stronghold.

[Trazoi]

I think Redcloak's motivation is that goblinoids are forced to live in the crappy parts of the world that no-one else wants to live in. His whole objective is to create a world where goblinoids can live in places with resources like farmable soil like every other race.

I'd wager that Azure City is in a heck of a lot nicer surroundings than that hobgoblin city in the mountains.

[Doran]

All true, but my main point wasn't that they should've stayed with the
Hobgoblin city, but that it provides a supply source, so they shouldn't be having much trouble with trade.

Of course, most of the advantages of Azure city are negated when you consider:

It's another black mark against the goblins
It's half ruined.
There are rebel forces disrupting operations
It is sharing airspace with a 200 feet rift in reality to an unstoppable beast of chaos.


Then again, no-one ever accused Redcloak of being a completely rational thinker. :smallamused:

This leads me to ask a question, if you were the goblin put in charge after redcloak and xykon left, what would you do?

[Laurentio]

This leads me to ask a question, if you were the goblin put in charge after redcloak and xykon left, what would you do?
I would state my name at the very first occasion, using a simple and easily memorizable one (as Xylon prefer to kill people with name too long or difficult). I would even develop a quirk, an hobby and learn a peculiar weapon, just for the sake of being promoted from Red Shirt to Golden Shirt.

Done that... I would search between prisoners every naval engineer, carpenter and sailor-man, because usually hobs born in a mountain city are bad in naval building. Through torture or "Join us if you know your good", I'll have many hobs trained in naval building and warfare.
I would make some use of the titanic undead work force, that is strong, obedient and impossible to tire, to raise the best defence possible in a short time. Meanwhile, I would start DIGGING (because we are a underground crawling race, aren't us? While invading paladins are not). Lot of tunnels and tons of traps are the best welcome you can think of.
And being a goblin (or an hob), I would call every possible hob female to Azurite City, to start a baby boom. Nothing like "goblinoid race" when you need a fast growing army. Every king of goblinoid, especially water dwellers sub types, are welcomed.
Last, I'd start to spread the rumor that we are successful trying to stop or reduce the "Rift" by the means of magical artifacts, but should the city falls in enemy hands, we would destroy them as a last act of spiteful revenge.

In a matter of years, you can have a reasonable hobgoblin navy, a solid fortress and a decent bluff.

Laurentio

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't forget, every newly built building/tunnel is 4 ft high. Also, start farming, and open up trade with other nations. If you offer them favorable agreements, some will accept. The more nations you can get involved in trade with you, and the longer you go without wars, the more you are going to be considered one of the good guys by other world leaders, who will ally with you. Maybe even send Hobbo troops to back some of your trading allies in wars against countries that will never accept you.
Also, scry on the fleet, and prepare about 5 scrolls of Control Weather. Send a small, fast boat out to the fleet, and have a hobbo cleric cast it. The first day, they shouldn't have it prepared, or if they do, they won't have it more than once. Sink half the fleet. Also, a Celestial Baleen Whale is Gargantuan. Prep a few scrolls of Summon Bigger Fish, and have that low-level cleric go to town. Sink the fleet.

[Morty]

The former hobgoblin city was in the middle of nowhere, in rocky mountains. They could live there, obviously, but Azure City and its surroundings is certainly a better place even now.
What I'm more interested in is wheter Redcloak has already invited some goblinoid civillians to live in the city.

[Laurentio]

What I'm more interested in is wheter Redcloak has already invited some goblinoid civillians to live in the city.
Ask yourself: several hundred of hobgoblins; several months; no females. Is it possible for you? And actually I've seen at least three female goblin fighters in the Zylon dungeon, but no a female hobgoblin in Redcloak army.
So I suppose that some goblinoid civilian must been in the city, otherwise it would have became a dangerous place for Tsukiko(1).
(Note: I know there are some of decent(2)-looking female prisoners, but I'm not going to considered it. For piety sake).

(1) Even if we know that she craves for Xylon. Shipping lover's material.
(2) By hobgoblin's standard

Laurentio

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Whatever's been left behind in that old hobgoblin city is not enough to support Azure City alone. As has been pointed out, it's in a crappy neck of the woods, so despite the size, they probably don't have much to share to begin with, not to mention enough to supplement Azure City's requirements for both sustenance and repairs and even potential expansion. It's not a very good resource.

Additionally, one should consider that establishing trade relations with another nation gives that nation disincentive to join up with, say, a fleet load of refugees looking to eliminate that new trading partner. It's a measure of protection against attack in this way. In fact, if the agreement is sufficiently fruitful, the trade partner might even join up with the hobgoblins against that fleet load of refugees. This kind of thing is just as much about allies as it is resources.

[slayerx]

Actually, something else to consider... aside from the valley being a bit far to trade with (especially since all trade would be by land as the valley has no ports), at the time redcloak did not care about the hobgoblins, and was planning on treating them like canon fodder... the only thing he cared about were having thousands of troops

Its very likely that when they left, team evil took ALL the hobgoblins, effectively abandoning the valley... He didn't care about the hobgoblins so Redcloak would not have bothered letting them keep the city in the valley... and just because we have not seen goblin women and children does not mean they are not their; if they could not fight then they were probably not on the front line for the sake that they would be useless... and we have only seen hobgoblins as guards and soliders and none in their more common everyday setting



Of course, most of the advantages of Azure city are negated when you consider:

It's another black mark against the goblins
It's half ruined.
There are rebel forces disrupting operations
It is sharing airspace with a 200 feet rift in reality to an unstoppable beast of chaos.


1) as if Redcloak cares at this point... i mean he already went through the trouble of taking over the city in attempt to get the gate and make Azure city pay for what it did to the goblins... keeping the city won't exactly be that much more worse... redcloak ain't out to prove goblins aren't evil, just that they deserve all the rights that any other race has (such as being considered a race and not a source of exp)
2) They can rebuild
3) Though they now have slaves to do much of the work for them, thus increasing their operations; it kinda evens things out... and rebellions can be stopped
4) ya, that's pretty bad... but as long as they stay away from it they should be fine... it will only be a probably if the Snarl escapes; it which case it won't matter since all of existance will be screwed at that point

[David Argall]

On the available evidence, the hobs don't have to worry much about defense. Azure City had 4 friendly cities, each of which was described as unwilling to do anything to help for fear of the hobgoblins.
So there just seems to be no danger of an invasion. Much more important to get the city functioning with trade, etc.

We can meta-game and can assume the city will be retaken, but on the evidence available to our hobgoblin mayor, it's a waste of precious resources getting ready for an attack that "obviously" isn't going to happen.

[Yendor]

On the available evidence, the hobs don't have to worry much about defense. Azure City had 4 friendly cities, each of which was described as unwilling to do anything to help for fear of the hobgoblins.
So there just seems to be no danger of an invasion. Much more important to get the city functioning with trade, etc.
They're afraid of Xykon, not the hobgoblins. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

[Zorn]

3) Though they now have slaves to do much of the work for them, thus increasing their operations; it kinda evens things out...

If they know what's good for them, they'll drop those slaves as soon as possible. Once a culture becomes dependent on slavery, it stagnates. Owners have little incentive to be innovative because their slaves' work conditions, hours, etc. mean nothing so long as the work gets done, and the slaves themselves lack the time and resources. In Ancient Greece, for example, those interested in science were discovering new things constantly, yet these discoveries were used more as a hobby than anything practical.

Obviously human history never accounts for magic, and I'm not sure how or even if magic would help offset the lack of technological advancement. I suppose that, to a certain extent, magic already acts as a barrier because it eliminates the need to increase efficiency.

Regardless, I think that liberating the slaves should be one of Redcloak's top priorities. Magic or not, they clearly have enough manpower to rebuild a city without slaves. Besides, releasing the slaves could be done in such a way as to seem like an act of good faith towards the human nations with whom Redcloak needs to establish trading ties.

[NENAD]

In D&D (and, thus, in Order of the Stick), Magic>Technology, therefore technological development is effectively replaced by magical development. Therefore, an overabundance of slaves would likely lead to magical stagnation just like it leads to technolgical stagnation in real life.

Of course, releasing them into the city is just asking for a major uprising. Instead, they should be ferried out of the city in small increments to freedom in various nearby allied kingdoms (you don't want to earn the ill will of one in particular by dumping thousands of refugees on them. In fact, you should probably give the kingdoms a heads up first). This also denies the rebels in the city one of their primary sources of new recruits.

As for what I'd do with the city, I'd declare my name to be something fairly easy to remember and really cool and intimidating (Maldeus is my personal favorite, especially since it has scary latin roots. You're not allowed to steal that one, either, it's mine). Then I'd begin using an odd accent that shows up in text, or maybe just start speaking in rhyme or iambic pentameter. I'd begin wielding an incredibly intimidating and unique weapon, like a scythe.

Having thoroughly gold-shirted myself, I'd set about turning Azure City into an impenetrable fortress dependent only upon hobbo and undead labor, and then release the slaves ASAP. Efforts to crush the resistance would continue, but I'd also offer full amnesty to any of them who decide to leave the city for the allied kingdoms.

While doing this I'd make allies (or at least peace treaties) with as many human kingdoms as possible, and ruthlessly pillage anyone who doesn't agree to maintain peace (if we can beat the Saphire Guard, there's good odds we can beat just about anyone). I'll occupy if I can, but if I can't, I'll just ravage their cities and leave. I'll facilitate this with a huge population boom caused by mating (and rape if necesarry) of every female goblinoid we can get our hands on. We should also be getting lots of immigrants. We set up vassal states with these immigrants in conquered kingdoms.

Eventually we should be able to carve out a huge Goblin Empire where the kingdoms of the south used to be (and where some will still be, if they're smart enough to not oppose us; that's very important, if you recognize us as a sovereign nation, we'll leave you alone).

[Falconer]

It was basically a mediocre city in the middle of nowhere.

And the new city is so...shiny...and blue...ish :smallwink:

"This leads me to ask a question, if you were the goblin put in charge after redcloak and xykon left, what would you do?" (I haven't figured out how to do the wacky double-quote bugger)

1. Heavily fortify the surrounding mountians, and slowly transition Azure City into a more civilian center (at the moment it seems to be just a massive fort).

2. Find local goblins living in the area, if any, and ally/assimilate/invite to join with the current army.

3. ???????

4. Profit

[David Argall]

Once a culture becomes dependent on slavery, it stagnates. Owners have little incentive to be innovative because their slaves' work conditions, hours, etc. mean nothing so long as the work gets done, and the slaves themselves lack the time and resources.
This is largely wishful thinking/propaganda put out by anti-slavery Northerners prior to the Civil War. The South was relatively backward and poor while it had slaves, but it remained so after the slaves were freed. There were claims of the legacy of slavery, but the South remained poor for a century after the war. Pretty rapidly, it becomes an excuse.

Slaves merely alters the direction of innovation. Labor is now cheap, so labor-saving machinery is not desirable. Instead you innovate in other ways. For example, since slaves are often slackers, inventions that make it hard to slack, or unimportant if they do, become goals.
Even that may not happen unless the supply of slaves is quite large, which rarely happens for long. Slavery tends to die out unless an outside source of slaves exists. [The US South was about unique in having its slave population increase due to natural increase instead of the capture of new slaves.] Either the slaves get freed, or don't produce new ones.
And innovation is not fast in the sort of time period we have in mind. So even if there is a stagnation, it would bother the great grandchildren of the current population, which is not going to look that far ahead.

Freeing the slaves would be useful for the city since the slaves would become free workers willing to work harder. But the benefit of this would be gained almost entirely, and maybe much more than entirely, by the former slaves, not by the hobgoblins, so their interest in the idea is likely to be low.

[T-Ice]

Having the old hobgoblin city as a trading partner doesn't help the gobbers much in any case. Seeing as Gouda comes from the Netherlands, a mountain town is most unlikely to be a source of it. :smallwink:

[Laurentio]

(Maldeus is my personal favorite, especially since it has scary latin roots. You're not allowed to steal that one, either, it's mine).
Done. Even if, "Maldeus" is probably the Hobgoblin word for "used diaper". I've an history of characters name that have a bad meaning in other languages.


I'd begin wielding an incredibly intimidating and unique weapon, like a scythe.
Scythe = Death (yours). Bad weapon, bad stats, and no villain wielding one survived.
Search for a very original and byzantine one. Like... three gold hamsters chained to form a bolas and covered with hallucinogenic poison, paired with a shark teeth scimitar with special holes that produce weird sound when fencing. Take time describing the underestimated potential of such weaponry.


Having thoroughly gold-shirted myself, I'd set about turning Azure City into an impenetrable fortress dependent only upon hobbo and undead labor, and then release the slaves ASAP. Efforts to crush the resistance would continue, but I'd also offer full amnesty to any of them who decide to leave the city for the allied kingdoms.
If "releasing slaves" means "killing them outright and telling that they are now free" and "offer full amnesty" means "killing them in the wilderness, far away from indiscreet eyes", I'm with you. I would add "Sacrifice to the Dark One and then turn them all to zombie for underground works". I don't like the waste of good slaves.


(if we can beat the Saphire Guard, there's good odds we can beat just about anyone).
Right. You just need a 21+ level Lich and a 17+ level Dark One cleric with a mighty artifact, and the enemy to lost half of his force due to internal politic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html), but yes, you can try.


if you recognize us as a sovereign nation, we'll leave you alone).
And here cames the adventurers. Any way, can't last: it's not in the hob nature to keep a pacific nation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html). Second panel, right page.

Maldeus, formerly known as Laurentio

[Charles Phipps]

This is largely wishful thinking/propaganda put out by anti-slavery Northerners prior to the Civil War. The South was relatively backward and poor while it had slaves, but it remained so after the slaves were freed. There were claims of the legacy of slavery, but the South remained poor for a century after the war. Pretty rapidly, it becomes an excuse.

Actually, the South was more economically prosperous for the North right up until cotton bottomed out and it fell to pieces. In truth, most cultures up until the Fall of Rome were slave holding states.

So we don't have much to measure by.

[stsasser]

Actually, the South was more economically prosperous for the North right up until cotton bottomed out and it fell to pieces. In truth, most cultures up until the Fall of Rome were slave holding states.

So we don't have much to measure by.

An economy where 40%+ of the population's net worth = or < 0 is 'properous'?

[David Argall]

Actually, the South was more economically prosperous for the North right up until cotton bottomed out and it fell to pieces.
This merely strengthens my case since it adds another reason to doubt a slave economy stagnates. However, on the immediate point, it is incorrect. The North, the Northeast in particular, was much richer. The South merely had a very visible rich class and since the poor were the slaves, they were easy to overlook.


In truth, most cultures up until the Fall of Rome were slave holding states.

We can limit and expand that. Slavery was rare in the simplier cultures where everybody lived at near starvation levels and there was nothing to steal from the slave. But in richer cultures, slavery was common just about everywhere well past 1500 AD. Europe found itself with a shortage of useful places to raid for slaves, indeed, was raided for slaves, and so was short of slaves [and after 1500, it was more profitable to send them to the Americas], but they were still present until 1750.



An economy where 40%+ of the population's net worth = or < 0 is 'properous'?
When you are part of the 60% and are getting some of the loot from the 40% [Tho technically the question is misstated. Probably the net worth of 40% of every society, past and present, is zero or less.]

[Zorn]

This is largely wishful thinking/propaganda put out by anti-slavery Northerners prior to the Civil War. The South was relatively backward and poor while it had slaves, but it remained so after the slaves were freed. There were claims of the legacy of slavery, but the South remained poor for a century after the war. Pretty rapidly, it becomes an excuse.

Agreed, but my point was not that slavery was solely responsible for the South's lack of progress. What I said (or meant to say it seems) was that slavery allows a culture to develop that is dependent upon it. In the ante-bellum South, slavery was the glue that held their way of life together. It provided a source of income, yes, but more importantly it allowed the upper class to subjugate the poor farmers who were easily the majority by giving them an even lower class to look down upon: slaves (oddly enough, slaves had better conditions than their white counterparts in many cases). Until the introduction of slavery, Southern aristocrats were met with frequent rebellion from the lower classes. Obviously the freeing of slaves in the United States did not mean that Southerners would reform immediately. As I previously stated, however, slavery was key in establishing the culture whose influence plagued the South for years to come.


Slaves merely alters the direction of innovation. Labor is now cheap, so labor-saving machinery is not desirable. Instead you innovate in other ways. For example, since slaves are often slackers, inventions that make it hard to slack, or unimportant if they do, become goals.

Very true. Once again, however, I never meant to imply that slavery stops innovation altogether. It does cripple it though. Going back to the American South example, the Civil War gives us a clear example of how an industrial nation outmatches one still reliant upon slavery.


Even that may not happen unless the supply of slaves is quite large, which rarely happens for long. Slavery tends to die out unless an outside source of slaves exists. [The US South was about unique in having its slave population increase due to natural increase instead of the capture of new slaves.] Either the slaves get freed, or don't produce new ones.
And innovation is not fast in the sort of time period we have in mind. So even if there is a stagnation, it would bother the great grandchildren of the current population, which is not going to look that far ahead.

Yes. The American South was a very unique situation when compared to previous cultures that had embraced slavery. For that reason I purposefully avoided mentioning it in my first post. I certainly don't believe that this hobgoblin nation will become as partial to it as the South did. Regardless, slavery does have a negative influence however small. There simply is no need to retain slaves when the hobgoblins are already so loyal to their leader.


Freeing the slaves would be useful for the city since the slaves would become free workers willing to work harder. But the benefit of this would be gained almost entirely, and maybe much more than entirely, by the former slaves, not by the hobgoblins, so their interest in the idea is likely to be low.

If the slaves are freed, they should not be kept within the city. The hobgoblins have more than enough manpower to replace them, and due to their intense loyalty to Redcloak they could perform the same duties the slaves did without causing dissent. Keeping the slaves is only asking for trouble. Somehow I don't think a small human population would last long in an environment already highly prejudiced against them without the sort of "you break it, you buy it" protection slavery provides.


This merely strengthens my case since it adds another reason to doubt a slave economy stagnates. However, on the immediate point, it is incorrect. The North, the Northeast in particular, was much richer. The South merely had a very visible rich class and since the poor were the slaves, they were easy to overlook.

Well technically slaves don't count as citizens and cannot be expected to add or subtract from a nation's degree of prosperity. That said, a majority of Southerners were very poor and, in many cases, worse off than most slaves. I cannot recall the actual figures, but I believe that of the seceding states on average only 20% of the families actually owned one or more slaves.


We can limit and expand that. Slavery was rare in the simplier cultures where everybody lived at near starvation levels and there was nothing to steal from the slave. But in richer cultures, slavery was common just about everywhere well past 1500 AD. Europe found itself with a shortage of useful places to raid for slaves, indeed, was raided for slaves, and so was short of slaves [and after 1500, it was more profitable to send them to the Americas], but they were still present until 1750.

Yes, slavery has been a prevalent part of human history. It should be noted, however, that almost none of these cultures relied upon it nearly as much as the American South did. We cannot assume that just because they made advances and also just happened to have slaves makes slavery any better. Expanding that point, however, I would like to point out that our modern day culture which is conveniently lacking slavery is advancing faster than any in the history of the human race. Now obviously slavery isn't the only factor in this change, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

[paladinofshojo]

Redcloak didn't state that he wanted to create a city but a nation, and one city doesn't make a nation (no matter how large it is). However, to found a functioning nation, you need to have allies to support you (even the U.S. had help in its budding years).

[Voyager_I]

I dunno, this comic looks to roll with the City-States. A little oldschool, sure, but not without precedent.

[stm177]

Usually slavery vs. serfdom worked like this:

Slavery: Useful for cash crops (wine, cotton, sugar, tobacco, olive oil, etc)

Serfdom: Useful for grains (wheat, rice, potatoes, etc)


The difference is that it's easy for the local warlord to squeeze an extra chicken and a bag of grain out of a peasant family, but cash crops require long term investment by fairly knowledgeable plantation owners and a trading network to sell the goods through.

Slavery dies out after the Western Roman Empire fell because the trading system collapsed. (I.e. barbarians were killing and looting all the merchants) Without a secure trading network to market olive oil or wine, the plantations themselves are abandoned, and the slaves are freed, killed, or sold off. Freed is a relative term, since serfdom came into being to force local people to produce food locally, rather than say Egypt supplying grain to Rome before the fall of the Western Empire. This is the birth of the Manorial system.

Sugar and wine production picked up again after 1100 AD, so you see a big uptick in slavery in places like Sicily, and they'd be from Africa.

In medieval times, the other big use for slaves was for domestic servants, but these slaves were typically bought from slave markets in Crimea. The Italians desired white domestic servants, and that's why Genoa owned that northern coastal bit of land in the Black Sea.

(Probably someone knows a bunch more than me about this, so feel free to correct me)

[Zorn]

Usually slavery vs. serfdom worked like this:

Slavery: Useful for cash crops (wine, cotton, sugar, tobacco, olive oil, etc)

Serfdom: Useful for grains (wheat, rice, potatoes, etc)

I know this is off topic, but would mind explaining that statement? I can think of a reason for it, but it doesn't seem too reliable...

[stm177]

Well, the land owner's goal is to make money, and slaves are more expensive than serfs. You have to house and feed slaves while serfs run their own villages.

It only makes sense to purchase slaves if there's big money to be made.

[NENAD]

Done. Even if, "Maldeus" is probably the Hobgoblin word for "used diaper". I've an history of characters name that have a bad meaning in other languages.

Malus=Evil
Deus=God

I don't think you can go wrong with a name that translates into Evil God in Latin.



Scythe = Death (yours). Bad weapon, bad stats, and no villain wielding one survived.
Search for a very original and byzantine one. Like... three gold hamsters chained to form a bolas and covered with hallucinogenic poison, paired with a shark teeth scimitar with special holes that produce weird sound when fencing. Take time describing the underestimated potential of such weaponry.

How about an apparatus of eight flexible, bladed spines attatched to my back and magically controlled by my mind? That'd be half-a-dozen free extra attacks per turn and it hasn't been used before (I don't think).



If "releasing slaves" means "killing them outright and telling that they are now free" and "offer full amnesty" means "killing them in the wilderness, far away from indiscreet eyes", I'm with you. I would add "Sacrifice to the Dark One and then turn them all to zombie for underground works". I don't like the waste of good slaves.

True.



Right. You just need a 21+ level Lich and a 17+ level Dark One cleric with a mighty artifact, and the enemy to lost half of his force due to internal politic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html), but yes, you can try.


I cultivate a society of anti-adventurers amongst the stronger hobbos (and other goblinoids invited into the city) in order to get very high-level allies. It'll take a while, but I haven't got any other way of attracting high-level allies.



And here cames the adventurers. Any way, can't last: it's not in the hob nature to keep a pacific nation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html). Second panel, right page.



Your two points cancel one another out; I won't HAVE to keep a pacifistic nation because I'll probably be at near constant war.

[Torchlyte]

Economically speaking, slavery is inefficient by definition because it is a command system. Communist and slave-owning nations are less efficient because they lack the free choice that leads to a free market's olptimization. For example, with slavery you might force someone to work a field who would be more productive somewhere else.

[The Giant]

This topic has been reported for drifting into politics several times (discussing pros and cons of different governments currently still in existence, for example). Thus, it is being locked.