Strongest ToB Build?

[Kizara]

Ok, what is the strongest (most optimized) ToB build one can do?

The only limitation being that you must use as much ToB content as possible.

I may provide additional limitations if someone does something silly.

FINE, since people aren't interested in the spirit of the request, I will make specific bans.

Bans:

Stupid 1d2 chaos aura/crusader trick.


Does anyone have any ACTUAL ToB builds? You know, that would be used in a game?

[Solo]

You make a Crusader, get a 1d2 weapon, and proceed to pick your feats and auras...

[Ponce]

Possibly something involving a spiked chain and thicket of blades. Go into FB for a bit if you believe IHS lets you end frenzy.

Edit: Woah there, solo. I have a wand of dispel infinity and I'm not afraid to use it!

[Nebo_]

You make a Crusader, get a 1d2 weapon, and proceed to pick your feats and auras...
+1. This is the most powerful ToB combo. I also like the Spellwarped swordsage who throws everyone into the sun.

[Solo]

+1. This is the most powerful ToB combo. I also like the Spellwarped swordsage who throws everyone into the sun.

Bah, a Hulking Hurler can throw the universe at your enemy.

[Kizara]

Edited in restrictions against silly cheese.

[Nebo_]

Edited in restrictions against silly cheese.

Well, in that case, I'm a fan of wolfie-kun's Ruby Shadow.

[Kyeudo]

I believe the CO boards created a Ruby Knight Vindicator that, in the course of 1 round, traveled at MACH 15 while throwing his enemies several miles at a time. By focusing on a single enemy and alternating between chucking the foe and moving, you could deal enough damage to kill the Tarrasque several times over.

I can't remember which thread they created that monstrosity in, so I can't give a link. I doubt it's the most powerful build though.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Hmm, I vote for Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Swordsage 2. It's Batman with 2 levels of Ssg basically.

[Kizara]

Hmm, I vote for Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Swordsage 2. It's Batman with 2 levels of Ssg basically.

The point is to make the build primarily ToB.

That's like making a 'monk build' that's monk 1/druid 19.

[Bag_of_Holding]

The point is to make the build primarily ToB.

That's like making a 'monk build' that's monk 1/druid 19.

Yeah, I know. Right, my favourite build would be Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Sacred Exorcist 2/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10. CL 17 at 20th level with Archivist, CI, SE, RKV goodness in one build. Of course its problem would be its obvious MADness...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hmm, I vote for Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Swordsage 2. It's Batman with 2 levels of Ssg basically.You mean Wizard 5/SS 1/JPM 5/any gish 4/JPM 5

Only one less level of spellcasting than your build, and it can get 8th level maneuvers. Note the gish, whichever one you choose, should advance spellcasting fully for the 4 levels you're in it. Also, the feats Adaptive Style and Martial Study*2 could allow you to cut out the SS levels completely, and pick up level 18 in the spellcasting class, as well as tossing in a 5th level of the gish class.

[Rutee]

Guys. ToB. Seriously. Stop making Magi with Maneuvers.

[Ascension]

Guys. ToB. Seriously. Stop making Magi with Maneuvers.

Indeed. I'm tired of how magic-focused these boards are.

I don't know about power, not having tried either one of them in an actual game, but my favorite builds are Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master and Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade. The latter is entirely absurd, but I can't help but love it anyway.

[tyckspoon]

Ok.. certainly not the strongest, but simple and quite playable: Warblade 17/Swashbuckler 3, focusing on Int and Dex with a Karmic Strike/Robilar's retributive strike build. Int twice on attacks of opportunity from Battle Mastery and Swash 3, Diamond Mind or other preferred discipline for use when not counterstriking things.
Warblade 15 focusing on Int and forcing AoO is the base of it; 5 levels open to season to taste. Maybe the standard Fighter 2 to help pick up some of the feats it's going to want.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Any Elf Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10 would be quite good. Very- Eberron.

[namo]

- JanusJones' Meditant is a nice damage dealer (Warblade)
- or you could go Lockdown, i.e. battlefield control (Crusader with Thicket of Blades, Standstill...)

[avr]

It depends a bit on what level you're aiming at. If level 20 is the answer, Warblade 15 / Master of Nine 5 is very good - you get far more level 9 manoeuvres than Warblade 20 would - but before you start on Master of Nine you're a warblade with several suboptimal feats. Not bad, but maybe not the powerhouse you wanted.

What are your criteria?

[Kizara]

It depends a bit on what level you're aiming at. If level 20 is the answer, Warblade 15 / Master of Nine 5 is very good - you get far more level 9 manoeuvres than Warblade 20 would - but before you start on Master of Nine you're a warblade with several suboptimal feats. Not bad, but maybe not the powerhouse you wanted.

What are your criteria?

It's a theorectical excercise mainly, just trying to get a feel of how people optimize the material.

[Reel On, Love]

It's Crusader 13/Swordsage (unarmed variant) 1/Warblade 1/Master of Nine 5.

Take Extra Granted Maneuver. You end up with 11 maneuvers readied/9 granted (which means you always have TONS of options), and pretty much ALL the best maneuvers in the game. Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, and Manticore Parry? Sure. A bunch of Diamond Mind stuff ending in Diamond Nightmare Blade? Yep. White Raven Tactics, stuff, White Raven Hammer? Yes. Swooping Dragon Strike? Yep. Greater Divine Surge and Strike of Righteous Vitality? Uh-huh.

[Nebo_]

It's a theorectical excercise mainly, just trying to get a feel of how people optimize the material.

Go here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683941). If you want to look at how people optimise, why wouldn't you look at the optimisation board?

[Kizara]

It's Crusader 13/Swordsage (unarmed variant) 1/Warblade 1/Master of Nine 5.

Take Extra Granted Maneuver. You end up with 11 maneuvers readied/9 granted (which means you always have TONS of options), and pretty much ALL the best maneuvers in the game. Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, and Manticore Parry? Sure. A bunch of Diamond Mind stuff ending in Diamond Nightmare Blade? Yep. White Raven Tactics, stuff, White Raven Hammer? Yes. Swooping Dragon Strike? Yep. Greater Divine Surge and Strike of Righteous Vitality? Uh-huh.

Thank you for contributing something useful to my thread.

Thank you very much.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's Crusader 13/Swordsage (unarmed variant) 1/Warblade 1/Master of Nine 5.

Take Extra Granted Maneuver. You end up with 11 maneuvers readied/9 granted (which means you always have TONS of options), and pretty much ALL the best maneuvers in the game. Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, and Manticore Parry? Sure. A bunch of Diamond Mind stuff ending in Diamond Nightmare Blade? Yep. White Raven Tactics, stuff, White Raven Hammer? Yes. Swooping Dragon Strike? Yep. Greater Divine Surge and Strike of Righteous Vitality? Uh-huh.If you have the rolls to support it, why not lose 3 levels of Crusader for 2 of Warblade and 1 of Swordsage? Mettle hurts, but having the extra maneuvers is good, and I think the other class features makes up for it.

Edit: and what order would you take them in?

[shadow_archmagi]

You make a Crusader, get a 1d2 weapon, and proceed to pick your feats and auras...

Erm, solo? What is this madness of coin-based weaponry?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Erm, solo? What is this madness of coin-based weaponry?A Crusader with a one level dip in Cleric, the Imbued Healing (Luck) metamagic, and the Stance of Chaos can, by sacrificing a Conjuration (Healing) spell with the metamagic applied, deal infinite damage.
Imbued Healing allows him treat any ones as if he had rolled max instead. Stance of Chaos allows him to cause any max damage rolls to cascade (if you roll max, re-roll, add the 2 results, if you roll max again, repeat). Every attack is dealing infinite damage. Even better, if you are a halfling fighting unarmed, it's all non-lethal, so stuff can't even be brought back. :smalleek:

[Chronicled]

Spank the Monkey hasn't been mentioned yet? :smallconfused: That's my personal favorite broken ToB combo (and it's mostly ToB classes).


Erm, solo? What is this madness of coin-based weaponry?

It's BassetKing's trick of getting an infinite damage hit. Cleric 1 gives you a spell to reroll all 1's, and Aura of Chaos lets you reroll all max damage dice and add the new result to the old one. If you have a 1d2 weapon, you hit for infinite damage--hence punching someone with a shuriken.

Edit: I R Ninja'd. By a much more detailed explaination.

[Douglas]

Imbued Healing (Luck) neither lets you treat 1's as max nor lets you reroll them. It lets you treat 1's as 2's. This is why a 1d2 weapon is required for the combo to work.

[Darrin]

Spank the Monkey hasn't been mentioned yet? :smallconfused: That's my personal favorite broken ToB combo (and it's mostly ToB classes).

Spank isn't currently legal, due to the Sage Advice ruling where the Sage decided to completely ignore the PHB definition of "ally". But technically Sage Advice is not errata, so by RAW Spank might still be considered "legal":

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=764997

There's another way to get multiple full attacks a round that doesn't abuse WRT: a Shadow-Pouncer RKV. This one isn't exactly optimized, but would be an example of how it would work:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10744037#post10744037

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sage rules in favor of "best for your game", not "RAW". He's admitted as much. Spank is still legal.

[Swooper]

I'm gonna throw my vote at Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1, with Stormguard Warrior, TWF and some other goodies. I've explained the build before, don't have time to do it again now. Basically, you pounce for no damage in round 1, in round 2 you shadow blink away, pounce again and do an average of over 2k damage. I think that beats most ubercharger builds out there...

[Solo]

I'm gonna throw my vote at Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1, with Stormguard Warrior, TWF and some other goodies. I've explained the build before, don't have time to do it again now. Basically, you pounce for no damage in round 1, in round 2 you shadow blink away, pounce again and do an average of over 2k damage. I think that beats most ubercharger builds out there...

You should call it... the SWOOPER!

[Talic]

I believe there's a build floating around on the site (gestalt) that's pretty bad, here's an update for non gestalt.

Pixie (LA 4) Cleric 3, Crusader 11, Bloodstorm Blade 2.

Feat: Imbued Healing (Luck domain).
Stance: Aura of Chaos.

Weapon: Light shield +1, Throwing, Returning (get 2)

Weapon damage is 1d2+1.

Attack plan:
1) Be invisible, in Aura of Chaos stance.
2) Cast a healing spell on yourself
2a) activate imbued healing, and Imbue Luck.
3) Throw shield. (treat as melee from Bloodstorm Blade 2's ability)
4) Roll damage. 1d2. If it's a 1, it's a 2. If it's a two, roll again, and add it in. Repeat.

The original gestalt build will be in Gestalt Challenge 10, I believe. Much props to the guy who made it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Learn to read. Seriously people, it's in the first post, how hard is that to understand?

[Squash Monster]

Cleric 1/Crusader 1/ Swordsage 4/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ stuff

Take Extra Turning lots and lots of times.
Own an infinite-use staff of Greater Celerity (yes, you can make these, they're just expensive as hell).
Cast Favor of the Martyr so you're immune to daze.
Burn Turn Undead attempts to get swift actions.
Celerity away all your swift actions to get full round actions.
Cast DMM:Persist Footsteps of the Divine.
End Footsteps of the Divine prematurely to get a move speed of +10ft/round remaining for one round.

Now you have dozens of actions this round, all of which give you insane movement speed.

Use this to use Ring Of Fire on a large city or Tornado Throw something for millions of damage.

This is Chuck, the Ruby Knight Vindicator.


And if you think that was nuts, I left out what makes the original version horrendously powerful. Found hundreds of legacy weapons, getting the least legacy feat for free every time. Now use the Dark Chaos Shuffle to turn all those least legacies into Extra Turning.

Details are in this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993832

[Solo]

Learn to read. Seriously people, it's in the first post, how hard is that to understand?

You know the rules, and so do I

[Keld Denar]

You know the rules, and so do I

We're no strangers to love...
You know the rules, and so do I
A full commitment is what I'm thinking of
You wouldn't get this from any other guy. (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU&feature=related)


In other news....

Cinti Shadow Maurader *bamf* pouncer
Stormguard Crusader
Ruby Knight Windicator
Goliath Fighter/Barb/BloodstormBlade/Warhulk ranged dungeon crasher

[Draz74]

The original gestalt build will be in Gestalt Challenge 10, I believe. Much props to the guy who made it.

Thanks, but they said there has been enough Aura of Chaos cheese here already.

For my part, it doesn't qualify as "most powerful," but in my recent attempts to make simple effective characters, which means (among other things) no multiclassing or PrCs, I've been having fun with a pure Warblade.

Race? Raptoran. Flight is very nice for the ranged-attack-inhibited. Also, racial +10 to Jump is great with Sudden Leap or Swooping Dragon Strike.

Weapon? The oft-overlooked quarterstaff. More for style than for anything else -- although the ability to switch between TWF (for full attacks) and two-handed Power Attacking (for single attacks) as a free action is very nice.

Feats? TWF, ITWF, Power Attack, Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit.

Maneuvers: You can fit in all of the following (and a bit more) by Level 20:
- Mountain Hammer
- White Raven Tactics
- Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Dancing Blade Form
- Raging Mongoose, Feral Death Blow, Sudden Leap, Swooping Dragon Strike
- Avalanche of Blades, Moment of Alacrity, Emerald Razor, Time Stands Still

You're next to the BBEG and you want to do a lot of damage? Delay your turn until you're at the end of the initiative count (or, at least, after the BBEG's turn). Round 1: Activate Avalanche of Blades and Channel the Storm. You should hit most BBEGs many times for no damage before Avalanche of Blades misses (pray for no natural "1"). Activate Moment of Alacrity. Round 2: You go first because of Moment of Alacrity. Activate Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still and hit the BBEG at least 18 times, with large damage bonuses on every attack due to Channel the Storm (and decent damage bonuses on the on-hand attacks due to Power Attack, too).

Oh, and despite Diamond Mind being one of your two main disciplines, you don't have to spend skill points on Concentration at all.

[Talic]

Well, there's also the Bloodstorm Hurler build that gets 135 million damage a round. Unfortunately, without gestalt, it doesn't get HipS also, but still, I'd say that's moderately effective. I think my last build was throwing things that were about 20% heavier than the Empire state building. At level 21, the range goes from around "300 feet" to "Can you see it?"

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, that wasn't the idea I was thinking of.

With Goliath Mountain Rage to become large, then using Bloodstorm Blades attack similar to Hail of Arrows where you make 1 attack vs every foe in range. A little tweaking and you can extend your thrown range out pretty far. Now, just Power Attack for a little on each attack to trigger Knockback, and BAM, you've just bullrushed a dozen or more foes. The sheer number of d20 rolls is staggering. Plus, if you have Shocktrooper, and one of the foes you bullrush ends up in the square of another foe, you get to trip them (AT RANGE! LOL) and the follow up attack from Improved Trip triggers Knockback again for more bullrushy goodness. If ANY of those foes hits a solid object, you stack on a ton of Dungeoncrasher goodness.

Even vs a single target, making a full attack at range, knocking the foe back ~15 feet per hit, attacking 3-4 timse, you can Knockback a foe out of range to where he can only attack you if he charges (which can trigger things like AoOs or the Hold the Line feat for more Knockback!)

[The Sandman]

I've been working on a Bard 5/Marshal 1/Crusader 14 build for a bit now. The basic idea is to boost inspire courage bonuses and Charisma-based attacks through the roof. Snowflake Wardance is likely to be a key part of the build. I may have something more thorough shortly.

Edit: For your perusal, the something more thorough:

Relevant Feats: Die Hard, Snowflake Wardance, Lingering Song, Battle Dancer, Song of the Heart, Chaos Music, Song of the White Raven, Battle Meditation (White Raven), Extra Granted Maneuver

Necessary Gear: +1 Harmonizing longsword, Vest of Legends, Slippers of Battledancing, Badge of Valor

Useful Spells: Inspirational Boost, Beastland Ferocity, Focusing Chant, Whirling Blade

Stances: Leading the Charge, Thicket of Blades, Aura of Chaos, Tactics of the Wolf

Maneuvers: Leading the Attack, Battle Leader's Charge, White Raven Tactics, White Raven Hammer, War Master's Charge, Clarion Call, Foehammer, Revitalizing Strike, Castigating Strike, Strike of Righteous Vitality, Rallying Strike

For added fun, assume all ability increases from leveling go into Cha. Also assume an inherent bonus of +5 to Cha will be acquired by lvl 20. If you manage to get 18 Cha at lvl 1, this gives you a Cha of 28 at lvl 20; in other words, a +9 modifier.