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Crow
2008-04-14, 12:33 AM
What would happen if somebody (like a god or something), placed an immovable rod in the path of a planet's orbit? Does it burn up on "entry" or proceed to plow straight through the planet?

Also: Could a hulking hurler use multiple immovable rods as a platform (or brace) to pick up and throw the earth?

Nebo_
2008-04-14, 12:38 AM
There is a weight limit.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-14, 12:38 AM
What would happen if somebody (like a god or something), placed an immovable rod in the path of a planet's orbit? Does it burn up on "entry" or proceed to plow straight through the planet?

Also: Could a hulking hurler use multiple immovable rods as a platform (or brace) to pick up and throw the earth?

I'm pretty sure the Earth is capable of making a DC 15 Str check to move the rod.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 12:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the Earth is capable of making a DC 15 Str check to move the rod.

Aye, many people forget that the "immovable rod"... isn't. It's just that "rod which is rather more difficult to move than a normal rod when activated" doesn't roll off the tongue nearly as well.

Decoy69
2008-04-14, 01:14 AM
I'm pretty sure it's a DC30 Str Check. Also a planet is more than heavy enough to just barge it out of the way.

Crow
2008-04-14, 01:35 AM
Ah, thanks for the clarification. :smallbiggrin:

CabbageTheif
2008-04-14, 01:56 PM
incidentally, you could make a knowledge (astrology) 30 check, take a bottle of air, teleport to space, place the rod in a predetermined spot (see the knowledge check) and when the planet moves into position the rod would enter the atmosphere. the rod is magical, and doesnt incinerate (but does heat up). as the earth keeps moving, the rod stays in position. lets say you knew that a person went to the same place for lunch everyday. so, with the heat it hits a person. with the heat and the velocity the planet is moving at (relative to the stationary rod) the person is assassinated. the rod then hits the actuall planet, planet makes a strength check, the rod does what rods do when moved.

then the adventurers have to play 'whodunnit'

FMArthur
2008-04-14, 02:15 PM
Unless it went straight on into the planet, because you sharpened one end perfectly and the atmosphere passing through it heated it up considerably. Who says it has to stand against the whole weight of the planet? It probably still wouldn't work, but it's worth considering that it's not the entire planet hitting it, it's one specific area being struck by the rod, merely supported by the solidity of the materials connecting it to the rest of the world.

Cuddly
2008-04-14, 02:18 PM
A better question is: what happens when a planet collides with a wall of force?

RTGoodman
2008-04-14, 02:18 PM
incidentally, you could make a knowledge (astrology) 30 check, take a bottle of air, teleport to space, place the rod in a predetermined spot (see the knowledge check) and when the planet moves into position the rod would enter the atmosphere. the rod is magical, and doesnt incinerate (but does heat up). as the earth keeps moving, the rod stays in position. lets say you knew that a person went to the same place for lunch everyday. so, with the heat it hits a person. with the heat and the velocity the planet is moving at (relative to the stationary rod) the person is assassinated. the rod then hits the actuall planet, planet makes a strength check, the rod does what rods do when moved.

then the adventurers have to play 'whodunnit'

Oh, you people and your heliocentric model of the solar system. Assuming you're correct and your fantasy world is a planet revolving around a sun, I'd say it would take a heck of a lot more than a DC 30 knowledge check to be able to assassinate someone like this.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 02:25 PM
Oh, you people and your heliocentric model of the solar system.Exactly. If taking the rod into space and activating it worked that way, then why do you need to even take it into space to begin with? If the Earth moves, then any activation of the rod would send it (from the Earth's reference frame) flying off in some wild direction.

Person_Man
2008-04-14, 02:36 PM
Also, its worth mentioning that an Immovable Rod is always moving. The world its on is spinning. The rod just stays in a stationary position relative to that world that its on, and those observing it from a close distance. But the name Relatively Stationary Rod doesn't have the same zing to it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-14, 03:34 PM
the rod is magical, and doesnt incinerate (but does heat up).

How do you figure that? It's a magic item, it's still vulnerable to whatever it would normally be vulnerable to; it just happens to get a save against effects that allow a save.

And have you calculated how fast an object that is sitting still objectively would be moving relative to the planet? Pretty important factor. (That's assuming you can even keep it still in space; would it start being still relative to the planet once it entered the atmosphere? How does it get decided what the rod is still in relation to? Why isn't a rod activated in the atmosphere still in relation to the planet?)

Also, you can't teleport things into mid-air; I don't see why you'd be able to teleport them into empty space.

This is all assuming planets are celestial objects revolving around a bigger celestial object, which is a pretty big assumption when talking about fantasy worlds.

Overlord
2008-04-14, 05:55 PM
Aye, many people forget that the "immovable rod"... isn't. It's just that "rod which is rather more difficult to move than a normal rod when activated" doesn't roll off the tongue nearly as well.

Indeed, the "Immovable rod" is "immovable" in the same sense that the Titanic was "unsinkable."

These sorts of things just can't withstand impacts with large icebergs or planets.

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 06:16 PM
And have you calculated how fast an object that is sitting still objectively would be moving relative to the planet? Pretty important factor. (That's assuming you can even keep it still in space; would it start being still relative to the planet once it entered the atmosphere? How does it get decided what the rod is still in relation to? Why isn't a rod activated in the atmosphere still in relation to the planet?)


It's probably relative to the dominant gravitational field. Which, usually generated by large bodies at rest with respect to themselves, mean that the rod is unlikely to go flying off if taken into weirder cosmologies.

And the numbers you're looking for are: About 66 thousand mph, plus/minus about a thousand depending on time of day and latitude.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 06:22 PM
As has been said, the real fun is Wall of Force. In a game with an earth like planet in a Sol like solar system the frame of reference suddenly becomes very important.

If you are sitting in the hold of a boat and cast Wall of Force, what frame of reference is it fixed in relation to. The boat? The planet (in which case WoF is pretty much the best way to get rid of a boat)? The star?

Overlord
2008-04-14, 06:25 PM
As has been said, the real fun is Wall of Force. In a game with an earth like planet in a Sol like solar system the frame of reference suddenly becomes very important.

If you are sitting in the hold of a boat and cast Wall of Force, what frame of reference is it fixed in relation to. The boat? The planet (in which case WoF is pretty much the best way to get rid of a boat)? The star?

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that the rules require the Wall to be fixed in relation to the surface of the planet, in the same sense that a normal wall is fixed in relation to the planet. Except a Wall of Force is indestructible.

CabbageTheif
2008-04-14, 06:41 PM
curse you all and your logic! it would have been the perfect crime if it wasnt for your meddling truth tables and your stupid P->Q statements!

if the rod moves in relation to the large celestial body it is near, then what would happen if it was in space (and to an above statement, you dont teleport the rod, a wizard with a bottle of air teleports into space)

Ascension
2008-04-14, 07:06 PM
What is this "space" people keep talking about? Is it one of the demi-planes?

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 07:09 PM
What is this "space" people keep talking about? Is it one of the demi-planes?

*ahem* Spelljammer.

And the rod would be fixed according to the location and spin of the dominant gravitational field. So depends where you are.

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-04-14, 07:11 PM
curse you all and your logic! it would have been the perfect crime if it wasnt for your meddling truth tables and your stupid P->Q statements!

You're confusing logic with reality. Totally different things.


if the rod moves in relation to the large celestial body it is near, then what would happen if it was in space

It would move (or fail to move) relative to whatever body was exerting the greatest gravitational pull on it at the time. This would mean that, in your proposed murder scenario, the rod would be hurtling towards the planet up until the planet got close enough to overcome the nearby star's gravitational pull, after which point the rod would just be stuck in a stationary "orbit" around the planet until something else pulled it away.

CabbageTheif
2008-04-14, 07:12 PM
And the rod would be fixed according to the location and spin of the dominant gravitational field. So depends where you are.

so in a heliocentric universe an immovable rod would orbit the sun? or would it move with the solar system it was in as that solar system moves through space, because if the second is the case then a knowledge check of 100 might allow you to assassinate someone in my aforementioned scenario.

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 07:13 PM
It would move (or fail to move) relative to whatever body was exerting the greatest gravitational pull on it at the time. This would mean that, in your proposed murder scenario, the rod would be hurtling towards the planet up until the planet got close enough to overcome the nearby star's gravitational pull, after which point the rod would just be stuck in a stationary "orbit" around the planet until something else pulled it away.

Conceivably, what with random teleportation effects and such, this has already happened, and given enough time, there could be immovable rod mines up there in stratosphere. Actually, closer to the moon.

And maybe it's designed to stay in the same reference frame after activation, to prevent them being changed by wrapping them in sufficient lead.

CabbageTheif
2008-04-14, 07:17 PM
Conceivably, what with random teleportation effects and such, this has already happened, and given enough time, there could be immovable rod mines up there in stratosphere. Actually, closer to the moon.

with enough imoveable rod buildup, would it have its own gravity? and, if the greater of the gravitational pulls were the rods themselves, would they remain stationary in relation to themselves...is that possible?

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 07:19 PM
with enough imoveable rod buildup, would it have its own gravity? and, if the greater of the gravitational pulls were the rods themselves, would they remain stationary in relation to themselves...is that possible?

To pull a douglas Adams "There's another theory which states that this has already happened", what you're describing is a planet. with a core that's impossibly hard to deconstruct.

Corolinth
2008-04-14, 07:23 PM
A better question is: what happens when a planet collides with a wall of force?It doesn't. It casts Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

AslanCross
2008-04-14, 07:24 PM
with enough imoveable rod buildup, would it have its own gravity? and, if the greater of the gravitational pulls were the rods themselves, would they remain stationary in relation to themselves...is that possible?

I think that would require a mass of immovable rods bigger than the planet.

And yeah, as has been mentioned, this would depend a lot on your cosmology. If your Material Plane involves a planet like Earth in a heliocentric system, it might work. (Though certain spells like nailed to the sky seem to assume a spherical planet.)

Collin152
2008-04-14, 07:29 PM
A better question is: what happens when a planet collides with a wall of force?

I argue that the wall collides with the planet.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 07:31 PM
*ahem* Spelljammer.

That's not necessarily canon in 3.5. I'd say the round vs. flat earth question and the "does space exist" question are entirely up to the DM.

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 07:33 PM
I think that would require a mass of immovable rods bigger than the planet.

Depends on the density, but fairly logical. About that size, give or take a couple billion tons.

Citizen Joe
2008-04-14, 07:40 PM
The easiest way of ruling is that an immovable rod locks in to the most dominant gravity well. While on a planet, that is usually the planet. When you get into space that may become a gravity plane of a Spelljammer ship or it could be the central star.

Motion is always relative, so the question is immovable relative to what. Gravity wells are an easy solution.

Jayabalard
2008-04-14, 08:12 PM
Also, its worth mentioning that an Immovable Rod is always moving. Not necessarily; this is only true if you assume that the world that people are playing on actually moves (which may not be the case)

Collin152
2008-04-14, 09:15 PM
Not necessarily; this is only true if you assume that the world that people are playing on actually moves (which may not be the case)

it could also refrence the fact that particles are always in constant motion, and if the rod was truly immovable, it would be incredibly cold.
Like, say, 0 degrees kelvin.

sikyon
2008-04-14, 09:29 PM
it could also refrence the fact that particles are always in constant motion, and if the rod was truly immovable, it would be incredibly cold.
Like, say, 0 degrees kelvin.

Assuming quantum mechanics exists.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 09:30 PM
it could also refrence the fact that particles are always in constant motion, and if the rod was truly immovable, it would be incredibly cold.
Like, say, 0 degrees kelvin.

But is matter in the D&Dverse made up of atoms?

We know there's a four element system in play, so I always assumed that all the other stuff came with it... flat earth, odd explanations of the sky, the whole works.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 09:33 PM
But is matter in the D&Dverse made up of atoms?

We know there's a four element system in play, so I always assumed that all the other stuff came with it... flat earth, odd explanations of the sky, the whole works.

Perhaps you use four elements.
Give me Fire, Water, Wood, Metal, and Earth any day, and Sun and Moon if we feel like it.

RTGoodman
2008-04-14, 09:36 PM
Perhaps you use four elements.
Give me Fire, Water, Wood, Metal, and Earth any day, and Sun and Moon if we feel like it.

And Heart! Don't forget Heart!

SamTheCleric
2008-04-14, 09:37 PM
By your powers combined!

http://phenomenaonbreak.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/tedspan.jpg

Collin152
2008-04-14, 09:38 PM
And Heart! Don't forget Heart!

Hmmm, I don't think the Shinto faith acknowledges that element.
Nor do I.
Elements comprise everything in the world, but I can no sooner cast out the earth in me than I can cast out my liver.
My heart is long since forlorn.

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 09:39 PM
it could also refrence the fact that particles are always in constant motion, and if the rod was truly immovable, it would be incredibly cold.
Like, say, 0 degrees kelvin.

You're confusing immovable and nonmoving. They are different.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 09:42 PM
You're confusing immovable and nonmoving. They are different.

If the rod is immovable, that which comprises it is also immovable.
When I push that button, it better damn well be unmoving.

Worira
2008-04-14, 09:45 PM
This talk of elements makes me wonder what happens if you shoot a water elemental with sodium-tipped arrows.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 09:47 PM
This talk of elements makes me wonder what happens if you shoot a water elemental with sodium-tipped arrows.

It laughs at you, as it isn't mundane water, but the raw elemental power of water.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 09:58 PM
If the rod is immovable, that which comprises it is also immovable.
When I push that button, it better damn well be unmoving.So how do you deactivate it? Since you apparently can't push the button again.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:04 PM
So how do you deactivate it? Since you apparently can't push the button again.

Why would I want to move my immovable rod?
Besides, if the rod is immovable but is operated by button, it's hardley my fault.

Bauglir
2008-04-14, 10:08 PM
Why need that which comprises the rod be unmoving? So long as the net sum of the particles' movement is 0, and the rod maintains its structural integrity, it is immovable.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 10:08 PM
Perhaps you use four elements.
Give me Fire, Water, Wood, Metal, and Earth any day, and Sun and Moon if we feel like it.

Okay then, but the quintessence spell won't do anything special if you start adding extra elements.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:09 PM
Okay then, but the quintessence spell won't do anything special if you start adding extra elements.

Power, quintessance power.

The_Snark
2008-04-14, 10:12 PM
So... you could probably able to sue a magic item shop for selling you an item that doesn't work as advertised by the name, then.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:19 PM
So... you could probably able to sue a magic item shop for selling you an item that doesn't work as advertised by the name, then.

They are MagiMart. Sueing them is like putting your neck to their axe.

Worira
2008-04-14, 10:19 PM
It laughs at you, as it isn't mundane water, but the raw elemental power of water.

Wouldn't that just make it blow up more? Water elementals exemplify the traits of water. Reacting with alkali metals is a trait of water.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:23 PM
Wouldn't that just make it blow up more? Water elementals exemplify the traits of water. Reacting with alkali metals is a trait of water.

They embody all the traits of water that benefit them.
They still aren't water, though, and chemical reactions generally mandate specific elements present, even if the other element posseses the same traits.

Worira
2008-04-14, 10:26 PM
Being slowed by control water and massive damage'd by horrid wilting is beneficial to them? I think you're going to have a pretty hard time arguing that water elementals don't have water in them.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:30 PM
Being slowed by control water and massive damage'd by horrid wilting is beneficial to them? I think you're going to have a pretty hard time arguing that water elementals don't have water in them.

Nah, see, that has nothing to do with water.
Those are just highly illogical spells.
Note that they don't affect humans especially, even though we are very dense with water.

The_Snark
2008-04-14, 10:31 PM
What is this 'sodium' you speak of? There are four elements, and sodium is not one of them. Or maybe five elements, or seven or eight, or possibly as much as fifteen, although if you have that many you will need to institute a fifteen-way rock-paper-scissors system to determine which ones have an advantage over which others.

Over a hundred elements, though, that's way too many. What kind of cumbersome universe would have that many unnecessary ones? Nobody'd write that. It would never sell.

Suing MagiMart isn't anything to worry about if you have an artificer cohort. Or if you are an artificer.

Worira
2008-04-14, 10:32 PM
Well, then, shooting a human with a sodium-tipped arrow.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-14, 10:33 PM
Heck, you should be able to shoot people with sodium tipped arrows and see them asplode, assuming you can get your hands on pure sodium, and have it not react with the atmosphere on the way.

In conclusion
Water elementals + sodium = dead water elementals.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 10:36 PM
Suing MagiMart isn't anything to worry about if you have an artificer cohort. Or if you are an artificer.

1. Buy an "Immovable Rod."
2. Debate modern physics in the context of a D&D setting.
3. Sue MagicMart.
4. ???
5. Profit.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:36 PM
What is this 'sodium' you speak of? There are four elements, and sodium is not one of them. Or maybe five elements, or seven or eight, or possibly as much as fifteen, although if you have that many you will need to institute a fifteen-way rock-paper-scissors system to determine which ones have an advantage over which others.


No element is inherantly superior or inferior to any other.
It is the way they are used that determines their power.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-14, 10:39 PM
I would argue that "water" as an element has a distinct advantage over "fire" in the classical understanding of the elements.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:41 PM
I would argue that "water" as an element has a distinct advantage over "fire" in the classical understanding of the elements.

Tell me, does a forest of thick fog stand a chance agaisnt a wildfire?

HoopyFrood
2008-04-14, 10:45 PM
That's not fire dominating water; you are describing the problem of not enough water. After all, they use water to calm wildfires. Covering with sand would also work, thus showing earth's dominance over fire.

Fire makes for a poor "element". Being a manifestation of energy and not matter has its disadvantages.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 10:51 PM
Fire makes for a poor "element". Being a manifestation of energy and not matter has its disadvantages.

But the other elements don't get to sing "Burn, baby, burn! Disco Inferno!"

Soundtrack is everything, baby.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:56 PM
That's not fire dominating water; you are describing the problem of not enough water. After all, they use water to calm wildfires. Covering with sand would also work, thus showing earth's dominance over fire.

Fire makes for a poor "element". Being a manifestation of energy and not matter has its disadvantages.

Nay, there is plenty of water, but it is not actign in a manner that could harm the fire.
And yes, sand could also quell the fire, but the fire can also scorch the earth.
Semper crecis, aut decrecis. They win and lose each battle.

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 10:56 PM
I'm going to have to say that fire wins.

And, btw, one of the traits of water is that it lies on the ground in puddles. Following the Rule Of Cool, water elementals don't do that.

As such, I'd actually give my players extra damage if they found, isolated, and sucessfully used sodium on water elementals. That's creative. keeping it from asploding would be hard, though. I would make it so.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:58 PM
I'm going to have to say that fire wins.

And, btw, one of the traits of water is that it lies on the ground in puddles. Following the Rule Of Cool, water elementals don't do that.

As such, I'd actually give my players extra damage if they found, isolated, and sucessfully used sodium on water elementals. That's creative. keeping it from asploding would be hard, though. I would make it so.

Asplosions are easy enough to prevent.
Engmksplosions? Not so much.

The_Snark
2008-04-14, 11:00 PM
No element is inherantly superior or inferior to any other.
It is the way they are used that determines their power.

Well, that's not always the case... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElementalRockPaperScissors)

Theodoxus
2008-04-14, 11:05 PM
If one were to become fixed in a point in space, how quickly would the planet/solar system/galaxy leave them?

HoopyFrood
2008-04-14, 11:13 PM
Thanks to Einstein, I believe, there is no way of determining what a "fixed point" is. We are unable to determine what our velocity is in regards to a universal relation.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 11:14 PM
If one were to become fixed in a point in space, how quickly would the planet/solar system/galaxy leave them?

It's possible you would cease to exist.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-15, 01:26 AM
And the numbers you're looking for are: About 66 thousand mph, plus/minus about a thousand depending on time of day and latitude.

I assume that's for Earth? How much is it for, say, Toril? (Does Toril even rotate? I never played Spelljammer, so all I know is Toril is inside a big gem in space.) Or Athas?


if the rod moves in relation to the large celestial body it is near, then what would happen if it was in space (and to an above statement, you dont teleport the rod, a wizard with a bottle of air teleports into space)

You still can't teleport into empty air or empty space. You can fly, I guess, if you've got a ring of sustenance and some protective spells, and can achieve escape velocity somehow... epic spells? But if you can cast epic spells, you can do something a lot more useful and deadly with them.

CabbageTheif
2008-04-15, 08:29 AM
first and foremost: rule 25 "relation to the orriginal topic decreases with every single post

that having been said, on the topic of the power of the elements, doesnt fire boil water? and doesnt fire make glass out of loosely condensed earth? and doesnt it need air to consume in order to catch at all? even in the oriental elements, you have wood and metal that are also greatly affected by fire. fire is hardly the weakest.

secondly, on the topic of immoveable rods, here is another idea: make invisible immoveable rods. its fun for the whole family! place them low to trip people. place them high to bonk them! place them over an obvious pit trap so that when they hit it, they fall into the floor (dms recomend that for the full effect, the pit trap should be a 10x10 space with a gelatinous cube at the bottom). put on some of the special glue after you set it and then make it invisible. watch as people are caught and stuck to apparently nothing!

zensuke
2008-04-15, 05:05 PM
Heck, you should be able to shoot people with sodium tipped arrows and see them asplode, assuming you can get your hands on pure sodium, and have it not react with the atmosphere on the way.

In conclusion
Water elementals + sodium = dead water elementals.

Well if you don't want it to react with the water in the air you could have the arrows in a quiver filled with an oil. then the act of shooting them would get enough oil off for a reaction to occur. Although I have not tested this (yet) seems like a good plan to me.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-15, 05:05 PM
Yes, but fire can disappear. Water, earth, and air will continue to exist pretty much for all eternity. Sure, they shift forms, but matter stays matter barring fusion and fission which normally aren't present in D&D. Fire goes out.

And thanks for the ideas! Invisible immovable rods... with spikes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 05:07 PM
The 4 elements are just analogies for the 4 states of matter. They may not have been intended that way, but that's how they worked out. Earth=solids, water=liquids, air=gases, fire=plasma. Plasma, for those who don't know, is what stars are made up of. I think fire wins.

Studoku
2008-04-15, 05:19 PM
If one were to become fixed in a point in space, how quickly would the planet/solar system/galaxy leave them?
The Monty Python Galaxy song. It contains most of the info you'd need to work this out. (http://www.dogpile.com/clickserver/_iceUrlFlag=1?rawURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ifa.hawaii.e du%2F~jpw%2Fast110%2Fmontypython.mp3&0=&1=0&4=72.53.194.53&5=172.141.83.102&9=59a63c4ee30d470bbc163552c69ec801&10=1&11=info.dogpl&13=search&14=372372&15=main-title&17=2&18=2&19=0&20=0&21=2&22=54Fwv7uvG58%3D&23=0&40=l4QMmmwzdx4Dvj6TUGBmng%3D%3D&_IceUrl=true)

The_Snark
2008-04-15, 05:21 PM
You still can't teleport into empty air or empty space.

Where is this rule? I don't see it under the description of the Teleport spell, and I don't see it under the description of the teleportation descriptor... What prevents you from teleporting into empty space, or high in the sky, assuming you can identify your destination?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 05:24 PM
It's a rule about Conjuration spells, but it doesn't apply to Teleport, only to Conjuration (Creation), IIRC.

Chronos
2008-04-15, 05:25 PM
Except that there are more than just four states of matter. Just looking at the fluids, for instance: A liquid is a fluid with equation of state rho = constant. A gas is a fluid with equation of state rho = some constant times pressure/temperature. Admittedly, those two are very common equations of state (at least, to a good approximation), but there are a bunch of other equations of state possible. Even water can be put into a state intermediate between liquid and gas (not just a mixture of the two, like in boiling, but a true intermediate) at sufficient pressures. It's possible to take water from a state which is unambiguously liquid to a state which is unambiguously a gas without ever undergoing a discrete phase transition. It's also possible, for that matter, to go through a phase transition from one solid phase to another: Again using water as an example, water has nearly a dozen distinct solid phases.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 05:34 PM
Yes, but fire can disappear. Water, earth, and air will continue to exist pretty much for all eternity. Sure, they shift forms, but matter stays matter barring fusion and fission which normally aren't present in D&D. Fire goes out.


Ah, but you are mistaken.
If I burn a log, I am converting Earth and Water and Air to Fire.
And unlike the other three, while fire may vanish, so long as the other elements exist, Fire can return.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-15, 07:05 PM
I think I'm mixing the real world and D&D too much.

I was working under the conservation of mass, which really wouldn't hold in D&D, seeing as there's magic.

...

I must think this over.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 07:17 PM
I think I'm mixing the real world and D&D too much.

I was working under the conservation of mass, which really wouldn't hold in D&D, seeing as there's magic.

...

I must think this over.

Also note the four planes of infinite quantities of each element.

FlyMolo
2008-04-15, 09:13 PM
Also note the four planes of infinite quantities of each element.

Yeah, this also blows up entropy and a bunch of other stuff besides.

Not that prestidigitation and fireball didn't, of course.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 09:15 PM
Yeah, this also blows up entropy and a bunch of other stuff besides.

Not that prestidigitation and fireball didn't, of course.

Entropy = Negative Energy Plane
Positive Energy Plane = !

FlyMolo
2008-04-15, 09:20 PM
I assume that's for Earth? How much is it for, say, Toril? (Does Toril even rotate? I never played Spelljammer, so all I know is Toril is inside a big gem in space.) Or Athas?

You still can't teleport into empty air or empty space. You can fly, I guess, if you've got a ring of sustenance and some protective spells, and can achieve escape velocity somehow... epic spells? But if you can cast epic spells, you can do something a lot more useful and deadly with them.

Big Gem=Weird acoustics.

And fly, the spell, breaks gravity. You don't need escape velocity, just patience. The only thing stopping you from building a space station in DnD is insufficient fly durations. With a moderately cheap magic item, problem solved! You still need some protection from the outside. Bottle of Air and a force sphere/resilient sphere?

Dode
2008-04-15, 09:25 PM
I knew exactly what the op's question was before even clicking the thread.

I don't know how to feel about that. Towards the community, or towards myself.

BRC
2008-04-15, 09:26 PM
Big Gem=Weird acoustics.

And fly, the spell, breaks gravity. You don't need escape velocity, just patience. The only thing stopping you from building a space station in DnD is insufficient fly durations. With a moderately cheap magic item, problem solved! You still need some protection from the outside. Bottle of Air and a force sphere/resilient sphere?

Magic carpet with a Force Sphere and a bottle of air.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-15, 09:28 PM
Magic carpet with a Force Sphere and a bottle of air.
Necklace of adaptation, anyone?

Chronos
2008-04-15, 09:52 PM
Bottle of Air and a force sphere/resilient sphere?Necklace of Adaptation would do the trick, too. Heck, you could climb to the Moon with nothing but a Necklace of Adaptation and a couple of Immovable Rods, if you were patient enough. Probably toss in a Ring of Sustenance or Myrlund's Spoon, too.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-15, 09:55 PM
Big Gem=Weird acoustics.

And fly, the spell, breaks gravity. You don't need escape velocity, just patience. The only thing stopping you from building a space station in DnD is insufficient fly durations. With a moderately cheap magic item, problem solved! You still need some protection from the outside. Bottle of Air and a force sphere/resilient sphere?

This would make the best hideout ever! Who in D&D would think to look in space?

Ascension
2008-04-15, 10:38 PM
This would make the best hideout ever! Who in D&D would think to look in space?

I keep telling you people, space doesn't exist! I know, for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky!

Collin152
2008-04-15, 10:46 PM
I keep telling you people, space doesn't exist! I know, for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky!

And I keep telling you, the sky is a myth! It is but the ocean above us, for where else do we sail when the land cannot be seen?

HoopyFrood
2008-04-15, 10:57 PM
We're obviously not using the same set of assumptions. :smallwink:

Zeful
2008-04-15, 11:01 PM
This would make the best hideout ever! Who in D&D would think to look in space?

Batman Liches.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-04-15, 11:07 PM
it could also refrence the fact that particles are always in constant motion, and if the rod was truly immovable, it would be incredibly cold.
Like, say, 0 degrees kelvin.
It's entirely possible. If it's at T=0 because its particles are immovable, it would not actually be cold. There cannot be any heat transfer into an immovable object, after all.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 11:09 PM
It's entirely possible. If it's at T=0 because its particles are immovable, it would not actually be cold. There cannot be any heat transfer into an immovable object, after all.

Damn, I think he's right.