A Monkey Grip Thread...

[Grynning]

So, Monkey Grip. The feat that the other feats beat up and call awful names. The Butters of feats. Poor, poor, Monkey Grip.

I agree that the feat sucks, but I got a bizarre urge to talk about it, so I'm kind of taking a poll. 3 questions:

1. Is Monkey Grip terrible solely because it's a trap for newbs who want to have a really big sword like Guts and Cloud, but offers almost no benefit? Or do you consider terrible for some other reason?

2. I'm of the opinion that there are in fact, worse feats than Monkey Grip. Can anyone name a few?

3. If you were going to house-rule Monkey Grip to make it actually usable, how would you do it?

I was thinking just changing it to the "epic" version (Wield Oversize Weapon) would make it less terrible and would let people get their "ZOMG look at how big my weapon is!" fix (Freudian implications aside).

Anyways, look forward to your thoughts.

[Valairn]

To answer 3, the easiest fix is to just remove the to-hit penalty. After all you are spending a feat on this, what's with the penalty? Even if you got rid of the hit penalty, its still not a GREAT feat. On average monkey grip is only going to slightly increase your total damage output.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

1: The main reason it's bad is because it does nothing that cannot be done better by something else, and it also applies a penalty.
2: Uh, maybe alertness. Toughness? No, Monkey Grip is so poor that making use of it actually makes you worse. I'm drawing a blank.
3: Make it any weapon 2 sizes larger, with a one-step reduction in size(light/one-handed/2handed), with the possibility (player's choice) of going up 3 sizes with no size reduction(but still no penalty). You're still only looking at 6 or so pts of extra damage.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Monkey Grip is terrible because it's like Power Attack, but infinitely worse.

Mechanically, Power Attack does the same thing (penalty to hit, bonus to damage), but has a better ratio, and you can control it.

And like Sstoopidtallkid said, there are no worse feats, because Monkey Grip is a rare feat that makes you worse when you use it.

If you want to make Monkey Grip better, have it remove the penalty. A Medium character with Monkey Grip could then wield a Large longsword as a one-handed weapon at no penalty. An increase of 2.5 in average damage. Power Attack is still better, but at least you're not making yourself worse by using the feat.

[Ossian]

Monkey Grip is terrible because it's like Power Attack, but infinitely worse.

Mechanically, Power Attack does the same thing (penalty to hit, bonus to damage), but has a better ratio, and you can control it.

And like Sstoopidtallkid said, there are no worse feats, because Monkey Grip is a rare feat that makes you worse when you use it.

If you want to make Monkey Grip better, have it remove the penalty. A Medium character with Monkey Grip could then wield a Large longsword as a one-handed weapon at no penalty. An increase of 2.5 in average damage. Power Attack is still better, but at least you're not making yourself worse by using the feat.


But you could take both! After all you're swinging that slab of iron/anvil with handle to slay huge brutes and withstand dragontail slaps or to jus terrorize hordes of mook soldiers with the sheer size of your weapon and the horrible mutilations it leaves. That's got to count for something.

Maybe for 3. you could give it a x2.something STR bonus when power attacking instead of just x2?

And hey, you can hide behind it when they shower darts on you :smallcool:

[Tengu]

1. Is Monkey Grip terrible solely because it's a trap for newbs who want to have a really big sword like Guts and Cloud, but offers almost no benefit? Or do you consider terrible for some other reason?

2. I'm of the opinion that there are in fact, worse feats than Monkey Grip. Can anyone name a few?

3. If you were going to house-rule Monkey Grip to make it actually usable, how would you do it?


1. It's terrible only because it's bad mechanically (unless you have a very specific mounted charger build or are at least Huge). Nothing bad in liking really big swords, as they are awesome.

2. There are a few, like Skill Focus (Forgery) or the Sterile feat from Book of Erotic Fantasy which does exactly what it sounds like.

3. Remove the AB penalty and maybe give Weapon Focus in any weapon as a prerequesite to balance it. Not necessarily, though.

[Draz74]

These (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18573.html) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-57004.html) have come up with some interesting ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57004&page=6) for the "worst feat in the game" award.

Although there are some truly awful ones that they never got around to mentioning. Such as Greater Power Specialization (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterPowerSpecialization) or Weapon Focus: Grapple.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Actually, I've run the numbers, and you get a lot of bonus out of it...if you happen to be Huge or Gargantuan, since at that point the damage bonus for going up a size is rather significant, and rather more that the 2-4 points you get out of two points of Power Attack. Still skipped it on the NPC I designed that this would likely be applicable to...

[Squash Monster]

1. Just because it's mechanically bad. You gain anywhere from 0.5 to 3 average damage and get a -2 penalty to hit. Power Attack cleans its clock.

2. As Tsotha-lanti said, it actually makes you worse. That's pretty strict competition. The only other feat I can think of is Clever Wrestling: the best way to grapple is to get somebody to increase your size, and you lose the benefits of this feat whenever somebody does that.

3. Removing the hit penalty is a good start: it makes it situationally better than Weapon Focus. If you'd like to make it better still, add something else.

You could raise the size category twice, but with certain weapons that's +6 to damage, which is really big for a single feat.

You could give it a bonus against disarm checks, which is vaguely useful and fits flavor. I'd actually recommend this one.

Or you could do something crazy like giving it the alternative option of using two-handed weapons of your size as one-handed weapons.

[Artanis]

1) Like others have said, Power Attack does the same thing, only better.

2) There's what, 3000 feats out there or something? I'm sure there's at least a few that are worse. Just off the top of my head, the construct-boosting feats in Comp Psi are pretty bad due to the fact that they're there to partially make up for the gigantic nerfbat thrashing that is a prerequisite to using them. They're like offering somebody a free turbocharger for their car, but only on the condition that they ditch their Ferrari in exchange for a beat-up Pinto.

3) Eh...yeah about all I can think of at the moment is the "remove the to-hit penalty" that so many others have suggested.

[Chronos]

2: Uh, maybe alertness.Nah, Alertness has two things going for it. First, unlike many of the skill boosting feats, Alertness provides a bonus to a couple of skills that everyone can benefit from, but most folks don't have as class skills. Second, you can often pick up Alertness for free, from having a familiar or somesuch. +2 to a couple of skills may or may not be worth a feat slot, but it's certainly worth 100 GP.

[SurlySeraph]

1. It also sucks because it has such a silly name.

2. Dual Strike. It lets you attack with both of two dual-wielded weapons as a standard action, but requires that you give up every reason why you'd want to attack with both of your weapons as a standard action.

3. I would make one-handed weapons of your size count as light weapons and two-handed weapons of your size count as one-handed weapons. That would make it useful.

[Solo]

And like Sstoopidtallkid said, there are no worse feats, because Monkey Grip is a rare feat that makes you worse when you use it.


And you can't turn it off!

[martyboy74]

Skill Focus: Speak Language?

VoP! That's worse!

[Zocelot]

Doesn't using a large weapon give you a larger range? Wouldn't that mean that Monkey Grip doesn't suck as much?

And if there is no range bonus, add that for your answer to question 3.

[MeklorIlavator]

Doesn't using a large weapon give you a larger range? Wouldn't that mean that Monkey Grip doesn't suck as much?

And if there is no range bonus, add that for your answer to question 3.

Nope, threat range is based on the user's size.

[Animefunkmaster]

Why Monkey Grip is bad:
First: It relies on a numerical system of chance. The bonus damage from weapon size incensements can easily be obtained by other sources.
Second: Only scales well with many size increasers (and many of those have a debate about what stacks.
Third: is truly only useful at low levels, when weapon damage is important. Once the rogue’s sneak attack gets going, the barbarian has BAB to Leap Attack, the Gish has spell slots to Arcane Strike, a bigger weapon will not be worthwhile.
Fourth: Wielding a larger weapon can already be done at the same penalty.... ITS IN THE SRD LOOK AT INAPROPRIATLY SIZED WEAPONS (This is like taking a feat that says: you can now move on the ground at your movement speed as a move action)
Fifth: The feat has a built in penalty.
Sixth: Most interactions with other size increasers don’t stack with monkey grip for some reason (Powerful Build)
Seventh: Reach is determined by appropriate size not by weapon for yet another strange reason.

Worse Feats:
Toughness, Skill Focus Basket weaving.

Houserule on Monkey Grip:
You are exceptionally skilled at wielding larger weapons.
Pre Req: Prof with all Simple and Martial Weapons
Benefit: Treat yourself as one size category larger for the purposes of determining what weapons you can wield. You are the appropriate size to wield any weapon within your size category or one size category larger. This effect stacks with other size increasers.


BUILD:
Assumption: Powerful Build Stacks with monkey grip, there is enough to argue both points, but in the interest of usefulness lets say it stacks.

ECL2
Half Giant
LA+1/Psychic Warrior1

Feats:
1)Exotic Weapon Prof Bastard Sword
Bonus Feat)Monkey Grip

Weapon:
Gargantuan Bastard Sword.

Here is how it is done:
Large Bastard Sword Two Hand (powerful build)
Wields in 1 hand thanks to exotic weapon prof.
Wields one size category higher in two hands (inappropriately sized weapon -2).
= Huge Bastard Sword in two hands.
+Monkey Grip (-2 penalty) it is now Gargantuan

Combo: Expansion 1 grants 1 more size categories. We are now at Colossal which is 6d8 damage at a -4 penalty.

Ways to make this better: A few levels in Psychic warrior for expansion 2 would get us to Colossal + I can’t think of other size increasers that stack off the rop of my head, I think greater mighty wallop works with a club… so does shillelagh… there might be some potential there.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meklor, he's talking about reach.

[MeklorIlavator]

Meklor, he's talking about reach.

Yes, I know, I meant the area he threatened with his weapon, which I admit is a bit unclear.

[Indon]

To houserule it, I'd do nothing that hasn't already been suggested, except for changing the wording so that rabid RAW-followers can stack it with all other sources of weapon increasement.

[Bauglir]

I'd say, let Monkey Grip work the way people think it does. So, for instance, you could wield a Medium Scythe one-handed or a Large one two-handed. And it stacks with Powerful Build. Something like, "You are treated as one size category larger than you currently are treated for the purposes of determining the size of weapons you wield and for determining the difficulty of wielding them. Furthermore, you no longer take penalties on attack rolls for wielding a weapon not sized for you, as long as you can actually wield it."

[SCPRedMage]

Seems to be some misconception about the attack penalty with Monkey Grip...

Monkey Grip does NOT apply an attack bonus, it just doesn't get rid of one that already exists.



Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. Thus, a human wielding a Small dagger takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls (one size category different), and an ogre wielding a Small longsword takes a –4 penalty (two size categories different). If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon (a wizard attempting to wield a Small battleaxe, for instance), a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or twohanded weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For instance, a Small greatsword (a two-handed weapon for a Small creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a light weapon for a Large creature. Conversely, a Large dagger (a light weapon for a Large creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a two-handed weapon for a Small creature. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.


Monkey Grip lets you wield a weapon made for a larger creature without increasing it's category (light, one-handed, or two-handed), but you still suffer the -2 cumulative penalty.

For example, consider a human wielding a Longsword made for a Large creature. Without Monkey Grip, the human would have to use both hands to use the weapon, but WITH Monkey Grip, it remains a one-handed weapon. In both cases, however, he has a -2 penalty to hit.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Seems to be some misconception about the attack penalty with Monkey Grip...

Monkey Grip does NOT apply an attack bonus, it just doesn't get rid of one that already exists.

No one's said it applies any extra penalty. Using it does apply a penalty, however, which means you're reducing attack bonuns to increase damage, and at a decidedly inferior ratio.

That's why everyone says fixing Monkey Grip would just require having it remove the penalty.

[SCPRedMage]

No one's said it applies any extra penalty. Using it does apply a penalty, however, which means you're reducing attack bonuns to increase damage, and at a decidedly inferior ratio.

That's why everyone says fixing Monkey Grip would just require having it remove the penalty.
USING it means a -2 penalty, yes, but people seem to think the penalty comes from Monkey Grip, rather than the normal rules.


1: The main reason it's bad is because it does nothing that cannot be done better by something else, and it also applies a penalty.


And like Sstoopidtallkid said, there are no worse feats, because Monkey Grip is a rare feat that makes you worse when you use it.



And like Sstoopidtallkid said, there are no worse feats, because Monkey Grip is a rare feat that makes you worse when you use it.And you can't turn it off!
All three of these posts state that Monkey Grip applies a penalty, and that it makes you worse for using it.

The problem isn't that it makes you worse, because it doesn't; you DO get a small mechanical advantage over people who don't have it. The problem is that said advantage isn't enough to actually justify the feat's existence...

[Artanis]

All three of these posts state that Monkey Grip applies a penalty, and that it makes you worse for using it.

The problem isn't that it makes you worse, because it doesn't; you DO get a small mechanical advantage over people who don't have it. The problem is that said advantage isn't enough to actually justify the feat's existence...
QFT

Monkey Grip gives a little extra versatility. A very little versatility, but it's not like you'll be penalized if you decide to forgo using its advantages. You'll still technically be better off than taking nothing at all, but that's about it.

So any feat that does literally nothing or, even more so, any feat that makes you worse off than taking no feats at all (like the aforementioned Comp Psi feats regarding Astral Constructs) will automatically be worse.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The problem isn't that it makes you worse, because it doesn't; you DO get a small mechanical advantage over people who don't have it. The problem is that said advantage isn't enough to actually justify the feat's existence...

But the function of the feat is to increase damage. Using it - the bigger weapon - makes you worse than you already were. Using Power Attack would achieve the same thing, but much more effectively.

There's no versatility involved, either. Power Attack is versatile. You can control the amount of attack bonus exchanged for damage. Monkey Grip is inflexible - you do more damage but hit less often, and at a bad ratio. (And when something happens to your oversized weapon, you'll have a bit of a hard time finding a new one.)

[Artanis]

But the function of the feat is to increase damage. Using it - the bigger weapon - makes you worse than you already were. Using Power Attack would achieve the same thing, but much more effectively.
Just because it does it badly does NOT mean that it does nothing. Just because Power Attack does it better does NOT mean that it does nothing. Just because it isn't worth taking does NOT mean that you are better off simply leaving that feat unspent.

By your own logic, Power Attack sucks hardcore because it does the very thing that YOU say is what makes Monkey Grip worse than not taking ANYTHING AT ALL.


There's no versatility involved, either. Power Attack is versatile. You can control the amount of attack bonus exchanged for damage. Monkey Grip is inflexible - you do more damage but hit less often, and at a bad ratio. (And when something happens to your oversized weapon, you'll have a bit of a hard time finding a new one.)
Look up versatility.

Monkey Grip does not decrease your options: you can still do everything that you would have done had you simply not taken a feat. However, Monkey Grip gives you an option that you would not have had. Just because that option is pointless does NOT mean that it is not there.

The fact that the option that Monkey Grip gives sucks donkey balls is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the point that it does, in fact, give you another option without taking away any existing ones.


Think of Monkey Grip as being like giving somebody a penny. That person now has more money than before. It does the person no real good, it doesn't do nearly as much as giving the person a hundred-dollar bill, but that does not change the fact that the person still has more money than before.


Short version:

Just because it does something badly does NOT mean it does nothing at all.

[SCPRedMage]

But the function of the feat is to increase damage. Using it - the bigger weapon - makes you worse than you already were. Using Power Attack would achieve the same thing, but much more effectively.
No, that is NOT the function of the feat. That is the idea behind using a bigger weapon, which you can do WITHOUT the feat. Monkey Grip just lets you do it without requiring the "extra effort". The feat was designed for the people out there who were using larger weapons already. And YES, there are people who like to do that, as silly as it sounds.

Bottom line: Monkey Grip does NOT make you worse. It just makes you better at doing something stupid.

[Roderick_BR]

Short version:

Just because it does something badly does NOT mean it does nothing at all.
The point here is that the option given is so bad, people prefer to not even take it.
Yes, it allows a bit more damage (and not completely reliable), at a smaller penalty than normal. Not using it gives you worse penalties. So spending a feat in something not worth getting is potentially making you weak, because you wasted a feat in an inferior ability.
In resume, people will prefer to use a normal sized weapon instead of wasting time taking Monkey Grip.

If Monkey Grip allowed you to use a large one-handed weapon with two hands without penalty, even with the -2 for using it one-handed as normal, it would give some versatiliy, but it not even gives you that.

And just for the record: In 3.0, Monkey Grip did allow you to use two-handed weapons in one hand, when weapons were classed only based on size. That's why some people get confused.

For fixes: Yeah. Replace Monkey Grip with Wield Oversized Weapon, and call it a day. Allow people to use two-handed weapons one-handed too, without penalty. Meh. That's no way that's game-breaking. At lower levels the fighters and barbarians are one-shoting things anyway. At higher levels, you rely on magic itens and class features/feats. The weapon is not all that awesome.
PS: I wouldn't let it stack with powerful build. They are the same thing.

[Infinity_Biscuit]

PS: I wouldn't let it stack with powerful build. They are the same thing.
Not really. One is that you've trained to use weapons that are too big for you, and the other is that you're physically built in such a way that the weapons best suited for you are ones that taller people would use.

[Jasdoif]

Not really. One is that you've trained to use weapons that are too big for you, and the other is that you're physically built in such a way that the weapons best suited for you are ones that taller people would use.No, they're effectively the same.
Monkey Grip lets you wield weapons intended for a creature one size larger then you at the same handed-ness category, at a -2 penalty.
Powerful Build lets you wield weapons intended for a creature one size larger then you at the same handed-ness category, at no penalty (along with Powerful Build's other benefits).Neither changes your actual size category, so the effects overlap...and Powerful Build is superior because it doesn't have the -2 penalty.

[Artanis]

The point here is that the option given is so bad, people prefer to not even take it.
Yes, it allows a bit more damage (and not completely reliable), at a smaller penalty than normal. Not using it gives you worse penalties. So spending a feat in something not worth getting is potentially making you weak, because you wasted a feat in an inferior ability.
We're definitely operating on different wavelengths, because that's not what I'm debating. I wholeheartedly agree that it is absolutely terrible, and I wholeheartedly agree that many - even most - feats are better than it. Hell, I'd take Toughness over Monkey Grip, even at level 20! So yes, the opportunity cost* is so high that it's a Very Bad Idea to take it.


My argument is that as big as it is, Monkey Grip's opportunity cost is not quite enough to make it the absolute worst feat because as terrible as it may be, Monkey Grip is technically better than not spending that feat at all**, whereas several feats do literally nothing, and some feats make you WORSE off than if you had left the feat unspent. For example:

--I think there's a feat in Eberron (something to do with becoming a detective) that IIRC lets you do what you can do with a skill check anyways. Adding literally nothing is worse than adding almost nothing, so if I'm remembering that feat correctly, it would be worse than Monkey Grip.
--The Construct-boosting feats in Comp Psi leave a manifester's Astral Construct power weaker than if he had not taken them. Doing harm instead of doing almost no good, so those feats would be worse than Monkey Grip.
--Vow of Poverty's "pretty much can't use items" restriction usually leaves you weaker than if you just took some magic items. So unless you're in one of a very small number of circumstances (such as a low-magic campaign), VoP is worse than Monkey Grip due to causing harm rather than merely doing almost no good.




*For those people who may not know what "opportunity cost" means: something's opportunity cost means what you could have gotten instead of that something. In this case, the opportunity cost of Monkey Grip is the fact that that's one less feat you can spend on something that doesn't totally suck.

**For example, if you have four feats to spend, taking three feats and nothing else is worse than taking three feats plus Monkey Grip.

[Xion]

Monkey Grip is terrible because it's like Power Attack, but infinitely worse.

Mechanically, Power Attack does the same thing (penalty to hit, bonus to damage), but has a better ratio, and you can control it.

And like Sstoopidtallkid said, there are no worse feats, because Monkey Grip is a rare feat that makes you worse when you use it.

If you want to make Monkey Grip better, have it remove the penalty. A Medium character with Monkey Grip could then wield a Large longsword as a one-handed weapon at no penalty. An increase of 2.5 in average damage. Power Attack is still better, but at least you're not making yourself worse by using the feat.

Wait you think -5 att 1d8 +5 damage is better than -0 att 2d6 damage. :smallconfused:?

Even with the penalty its -5 att 1d8 +5 Or -2 att 2d6 damage.

Or with a Great sword :Even with the penalty its -5 att 2d6 +5 Or -2 att 3d6 damage.

[tyckspoon]

Wait you think -5 att 1d8 +5 damage is better than -0 att 2d6 damage. :smallconfused:?

Even with the penalty its -5 att 1d8 +5 Or -2 att 2d6 damage.

Or with a Great sword :Even with the penalty its -5 att 2d6 +5 Or -2 att 3d6 damage.

Yes. Power Attack is better. Because 1d8 + 5 is reliably higher damage than 2d6 (average 9.5 against 7) and most especially because if you have trouble hitting at -5, you can stop using Power Attack. Or just cut back to the same penalty you would have gotten from Monkey Grip- -2 to hit, 1d8+2 damage is 6.5 average, which is pretty nearly the same as 2d6's average of 7. And you still retain the flexibility of changing your PA modifier to suit the opponent.

It gets worse when you go to two-handed weapons, because Power Attack returns two to one when used with a two-hander. You get -5 to hit, 2d6 +10. Or -2, 2d6 +4.. which is a constant damage bonus that is more than the average of the extra die you get for Monkey Gripping a larger sword. Power Attack's better.

Edit: A penalty-less Monkey Grip would be superior at lower levels, yes, but that would only improve it to the level of things like Dodge and Weapon Focus. As the game gets to higher levels, the bonus it provides become almost irrelevant compared to advancement in BAB and especially in the bonuses you get from other classes, magic items, and prestige classes. One of the most compelling reasons for Power Attack to be one of the best core feats is that it automatically scales with the character and can never become obsolete.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wait you think -5 att 1d8 +5 damage is better than -0 att 2d6 damage. :smallconfused:?

Even with the penalty its -5 att 1d8 +5 Or -2 att 2d6 damage.

Or with a Great sword :Even with the penalty its -5 att 2d6 +5 Or -2 att 3d6 damage.A -2 penalty from Monkey grip can increase damage by generally one die size. That's usually +1 to +3 damage. Power Attack at a -2 penalty with a 2-handed weapon increases damage by 4 every time. And you can turn it on and off. Reducing the number of hands needed to wield a weapon only matters for TWF builds which are generally weaker. PA builds are better with 2-handers than one, no matter the base damage.

[Xion]

Wait did power get new rules.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Power Attack
Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. No change, it's been that way for all of 3.5.

[Paul H]

Hi

Magic Item Compendium, Pg 139. Strong Arm Bracers, 6000gp. Can wield weapons as if you were one size larger, with no penalty, though doesn't stack with Powerful Build etc.

If you have the GP, the rest is mute.

Cheers
Paul H

[Jasdoif]

No change, it's been that way for all of 3.5.Yeah.

I believe 3.0 Power Attack didn't double the damage bonus for two-handed weapons, though (and I'm not as clear on this, but I think it didn't remove the damage bonus for light weapons either).

[Tsotha-lanti]

Wait you think -5 att 1d8 +5 damage is better than -0 att 2d6 damage. :smallconfused:?

Even with the penalty its -5 att 1d8 +5 Or -2 att 2d6 damage.

Or with a Great sword :Even with the penalty its -5 att 2d6 +5 Or -2 att 3d6 damage.

Being able to control your expected average damage by adjusting attack bonus and damage is always better.

And with greatswords, it's, for instance (starting from an attack bonus of +10), 2d6+10 (av 17) at +5 VS 3d6+0 (av 10.5) at +10.

Knowing how Power Attack works helps.

With a one-handed weapon, it's 1d8+5 (9.5) at +5 VS 2d6+0 at +8 (7).

If we make the penalties equal, we're looking at 2d6+4 (av 11) at +8 VS 3d6+0 (av 10.5) at +8, and 1d8+2 (6.5) at +8 VS 2d6+0 at +8 (7).

The combatant who picked Monkey Grip doesn't get to increase their damage when their opponent's AC goes down or their attack bonus goes up, either. The .05 increases for each +1 of attack bonus don't always work out better than the +1/+2 base damage increases.

[Xion]

Funny I've had 3.5 for awhile and I just now read the special.

Oh before a week ago I Just had the Core Books so whats Powerful Build (like is it a feat) and What book is it in.

[MeklorIlavator]

Funny I've had 3.5 for awhile and I just now read the special.

Oh before a week ago I Just had the Core Books so whats Powerful Build (like is it a feat) and What book is it in.

Its a racial ability, found on half giants(psioinc section in the SRD) and Goliaths(Races of Stone) to my knowledge.

[Talya]

I'm not reading any of this thread. I just popped in to say that Monkeygrip doesn't work that way.

[Chronos]

--Vow of Poverty's "pretty much can't use items" restriction usually leaves you weaker than if you just took some magic items. So unless you're in one of a very small number of circumstances (such as a low-magic campaign), VoP is worse than Monkey Grip due to causing harm rather than merely doing almost no good.You're looking at Vow of Poverty the wrong way. It's not supposed to be a choice of items vs. vow. Some people might want to play an ascetic character for roleplaying reasons, but that would just completely suck. So they introduced a feat to take away most (but not all) of the suck of poverty, to make those character concepts at least playable. The proper comparison in judging Vow of Poverty isn't vow vs. items; it's vow vs. nothing at all, since, if it weren't for the feat, that's what the characters it's designed for would have.

This is actually similar to Monkey Grip, as SCPRedMage pointed out. Some folks want to use oversized weapons. Using oversized weapons sucks, but Monkey Grip makes it suck slightly less. If you have your heart set, for some reason, on using a ridiculous Sephiroth sword, then taking Monkey Grip will in fact help you.

[Artanis]

You're looking at Vow of Poverty the wrong way. It's not supposed to be a choice of items vs. vow. Some people might want to play an ascetic character for roleplaying reasons, but that would just completely suck. So they introduced a feat to take away most (but not all) of the suck of poverty, to make those character concepts at least playable. The proper comparison in judging Vow of Poverty isn't vow vs. items; it's vow vs. nothing at all, since, if it weren't for the feat, that's what the characters it's designed for would have.
That STILL doesn't make it any better than Monkey Grip because somebody with Monkey Grip can do the exact same thing. This makes saying, "but you can RP it to be good!" totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm not reading any of this thread. I just popped in to say that Monkeygrip doesn't work that way.

We know. We're trying to make it work that way.

[Infinity_Biscuit]

No, they're effectively the same.
Monkey Grip lets you wield weapons intended for a creature one size larger then you at the same handed-ness category, at a -2 penalty.
Powerful Build lets you wield weapons intended for a creature one size larger then you at the same handed-ness category, at no penalty (along with Powerful Build's other benefits).Neither changes your actual size category, so the effects overlap...and Powerful Build is superior because it doesn't have the -2 penalty.
Oh, well, yes, mechanically they're nearly the same. I thought he was talking about them giving the same effect for the same reason, which they don't.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Power Attack does not "suck hardcore" if you're a frenzied Beserker!:smallbiggrin:


Monkey Grip is not a good feat to take for an uberpowerful character. The only time monkey grip is good is when you get it for style! One of my parties has a half-orc fighter. He has monkey grip because the player has a mini of a half-orc with a HUGE maul. The feat fits his character perfectly because now he can carry around a treestump on a pole!

[Talic]

Possible fixes:

Monkey grip gives you the reach of the larger weapon...

OR

Monkey grip lets you treat yourself as Large, if doing so would be advantageous, for any attack roll, or opposed check (not for determining reach, or your own AC)... Oh wait, I think that's another ability.

Yeah, powerful build FTW.

[Jayabalard]

Think of Monkey Grip as being like giving somebody a penny. That person now has more money than before. It does the person no real good, it doesn't do nearly as much as giving the person a hundred-dollar bill, but that does not change the fact that the person still has more money than before.Really, it's more like giving them an ass-penny.

[Jasdoif]

That STILL doesn't make it any better than Monkey Grip because somebody with Monkey Grip can do the exact same thing. This makes saying, "but you can RP it to be good!" totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.I'm pretty sure you mean somebody with[i]out[/i[ Monkey Grip there...but yeah.

If the sole purpose is for RP, I say it'd be far better to just fluff the size (Descriptively: "Yeah, it's huge just like Cloud's sword!"; Mechanically: it's identical to a standard size greatsword); rather then punish a player's character concept by forcing them to take such a painful feat choice.

[John Campbell]

If that's their character concept, I'm all for punishing them mechanically.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Possible fixes:

Monkey grip gives you the reach of the larger weapon...

On that topic, why doesn't it give you reach in the first place? If you have a greatsword and you make it Bigger, you should get better reach.

[Wooter]

On that topic, why doesn't it give you reach in the first place? If you have a greatsword and you make it Bigger, you should get better reach.

Logically, a spear should have better reach than a dagger, but it doesn't.