Need Help Getting Fine

[Person_Man]

There's a feat in Races of the Wild called Confound the Bigfolk. Basically, if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy, you can move into his square without provoking an attack of opportunity, deny your enemy its Dex bonus, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

Pretty nifty, huh?

There's a lot of potential (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=633443) with this, using Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Goad, and/or Test of Mettle.

Now, there are two easy ways to get pretty small, Compression (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersAtoC.html#compression) and Reduce Person (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsPtoR.html#reduce-person) (which don't stack, in case you're wondering). The problem is that both of these methods last for rounds or minutes. But I want to use this feat every combat, and I don't want to have to worry about shrinking myself on the first round if we're surprised.

So here's the challenge: How can we get a PC that's as small as possible (preferably Fine, which is the smallest size I'm aware of) for hours, or all day, for the smallest possible investment?

Any WotC book will be considered, though try to stay away from 3.0, magazines, and setting specific material if possible.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

[AKA_Bait]

Just to be clear, you want to be able to return to medium size when you want to?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Buy a Rod of Wonder, and use it until you get that 1/25 chance. Good aspects? Non-dispellable, makes you fine. Disadvantages? Costs 12,000 gp, probably won't show up in loot, turns you green.

I'm love that thing.

[Person_Man]

Just to be clear, you want to be able to return to medium size when you want to?

It would be nice to be able to get back to a small or medium race of so that I could interact with NPCs in a "normal" fashion. But its not required. As long as I'm reasonably mobile, I'm ok with roleplaying a permanently Fine sized PC.

[valadil]

This doesn't help with permanently decreasing your size, but will Polymorph stack with Reduce Person (assuming you polymorph first)?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Get boots of speed and play a ghostwise halfling, then use my earlier plan. You can talk to anyone within 20ft telepathically, and the speed from the boots is a set amount. Or dip barbarian/monk.

[Serpentine]

Ring of Shimmerling Form.
Doesn't exist to my knowledge, but dammit it should. For an added bit of fun, %chance it becomes Permanent... (originally I called it Pixie Form, but apparently pixies are Small sized...).
Alternatively, a Ring (or something) of Size Alteration, lets you change size categories, but I'm not sure how powerful that could be.

Anyway, why do you need to be Fine? With Diminutive you can hit anything Small sized and over. How many Tiny monsters are there (unless you want to take on a housecat)?

[Darrin]

There's a feat in Races of the Wild called Confound the Bigfolk. Basically, if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy, you can move into his square without provoking an attack of opportunity, deny your enemy its Dex bonus, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

Pretty nifty, huh?


More than nifty. The target is also considered flat-footed, so don't bother with feinting/goad. Equip yourself with a Collapsing Crescent Fan (Sandstorm, p. 96) and you have a +4 bonus on every attack against a flat-footed opponent. Not familiar with the whole Iajutsu focus thing, but that sounds pretty obscene.



The problem is that both of these methods last for rounds or minutes. But I want to use this feat every combat, and I don't want to have to worry about shrinking myself on the first round if we're surprised.


Reduce Person is one of the spells that you can use Permanency on. XP hit is pretty light, too. Persistent Spell + DMM would also work. Ring of Reduction might be cheaper, though (20,000 GP).

Polymorph Any Object into something tiny/fine.

Oh, which reminds me... there's the Psionic Sandwich trick. Sandwich might be considered tiny, or diminuative if it was maybe an hors d'erve. Sesame seed could work as fine.

Divine Minion template, turn into a hawk/cat. From there you can reduce to diminuitive or compression down to something fine. Assuming you start with Psychic Warrior 7, doable at ECL 8.

Race: Tibbit, from Dragon Compendium, LA +0. Standard action to polymorph into a tiny cat. Compress down to fine from there. Take Superior Unarmed Strike to give you an unarmed strike damage that isn't based on your size, use a monk/Fist of the Forest class ability to treat it as a natural weapon, and then feats/items to pump up the damage. So... Psychic Warrior Tibbit could do this at ECL 7. Only 7 round duration, however.

Race: Jermalaine from MMII starts out as tiny, LA +0. Or Muckdweller from Serpent Kingdoms (3.5 material).

To get into Blade Bravo, you can spoof yourself as a gnome with The Shaper of Form PrC (Dragon Compendium, p. 85). You can do this with a one-level dip, instead of a 3-level dip with Stoneblessed.

Master of Many Forms gets Wildshape: Diminuitive at 8th, you could reduce/compress down to fine from there. Other than Druid and Divine Minion, there are Wildshape variants for Monks and Rangers. So, ECL 13ish without Divine Minion cheese. Add a Ring of Reduction, and you can stay in your fine form for as long as you are wild-shaped. Duration-wise, this is probably your best bet.

[Squash Monster]

Do you mind having a level adjustment? If not, you could play a tiny fey like Grig or (if your DM will allow it) Petal (MM3). Petal, especially, has godly stats. Both of these can fly, as well, which makes it easier to interact with mediums, as you can fly up to face height.


However, the problem with being a tiny fey is that by doing so, you're not a gnome. And that stops you from being the other killer gnome (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=633443).

[Chronicled]

I was looking at making a playable build like this with a psychic rogue, but ran into your problem of duration, plus a lack of feats.

My end result was to be a PC who rode a sparrow into combat, before leaping off onto enemies to make with the stabbing.

[Person_Man]

This doesn't help with permanently decreasing your size, but will Polymorph stack with Reduce Person (assuming you polymorph first)?

Polymorph or Metamorphosis will get you down to Fine, but they only last for 1 minute per level. As far as I know, there is nothing smaller then Fine.



Anyway, why do you need to be Fine? With Diminutive you can hit anything Small sized and over. How many Tiny monsters are there (unless you want to take on a housecat)?

It's not necessary, its just preferable. The smaller you are, the higher your Dex and AC bonuses are. But as you point out, being Tiny would work well 99% of the time.



Do you mind having a level adjustment? If not, you could play a tiny fey like Grig or (if your DM will allow it) Petal (MM3). Petal, especially, has godly stats. Both of these can fly, as well, which makes it easier to interact with mediums, as you can fly up to face height.

Are Grig and Petal playable races? They have LA, but no "Grig as Characters" entry.


Darrin: Thanks for the excellent feedback. Permanent Reduce Person or Polymorph any Object would work, though I'd live in constant fear of Dispel Magic. The LA 0 Jermlaine (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Monster_Manual_2.zip) would be perfect, but being 3.0 (and very weird) I don't know if a reasonable DM would allow it.

Ideally, I'd like a Fine sized Knight. My AC will be ridiculously high. I should be able to to climb aboard an enemy, and then watch his friends pummel him to death as they try to kill me. When fighting a single enemy, I'd use Spirited Charge (riding a Sparrow?) and two handed Power Attack to deal massive damage. If I could convince a DM to allow me to use Iaijutsu Focus, it would just be ridiculous.

[Chronicled]

Ideally, I'd like a Fine sized Knight. My AC will be ridiculously high. I should be able to to climb aboard an enemy, and then watch his friends pummel him to death as they try to kill me. When fighting a single enemy, I'd use Spirited Charge (riding a Sparrow?) and two handed Power Attack to deal massive damage. If I could convince a DM to allow me to use Iaijutsu Focus, it would just be ridiculous.

Sounds like a prime case for Elusive Target. Are you flanked when using Confound the Big Folk/Climb Aboard, or is there another way to make that work?

[Person_Man]

Sounds like a prime case for Elusive Target. Are you flanked when using Confound the Big Folk/Climb Aboard, or is there another way to make that work?

I wouldn't bother with Elusive Target if you're using Confound the Big Folk.

Negate Power Attack is always useful. But you'll already have a very high AC, and everyone but the guy you're climbing aboard will have a 50% miss chance. Diverting Defense requires that you flank. Confound the Big Folk requires that you enter your enemy's square. And you're going to be so small, that you'll only threaten the square you're in. Cause Overreach requires that you provoke an attack of opportunity from movement. Confound the Big Folk negates the AoO from moving into your enemy's square. Also, Elusive Target requires Dodge and Mobility, feats which I hate.


Back on the main topic, thanks to Darrin's tip I looked up the Ring of Reduction in Lords of Madness (pg. 130). It works just like Reduce Person, except its continuous until you take off the ring, and it works on any intelligent creature, not just humanoids. So now you can just be a Whisper Gnome or Halfling or whatnot, and this combo will work against anything that isn't Small or smaller. A shame that the only +0 LA Tiny races (Jermalaine and Muckdweller) don't have explicit "Jermalaine as Characters" entires.

[Darrin]

Back on the main topic, thanks to Darrin's tip I looked up the Ring of Reduction in Lords of Madness (pg. 130). It works just like Reduce Person, except its continuous until you take off the ring, and it works on any intelligent creature, not just humanoids. So now you can just be a Whisper Gnome or Halfling or whatnot, and this combo will work against anything that isn't Small or smaller. A shame that the only +0 LA Tiny races (Jermalaine and Muckdweller) don't have explicit "Jermalaine as Characters" entires.

I'd go with Tibbit, and hire an NPC spellcaster to pretend to be a PC with a "cat" as a "familiar". Have the NPC hang around the back, casting grease or whatever, and occasionally drop ominous warnings about "Don't make Mr. Fluffy angry, you wouldn't like him when he's angry." Then, when the spellcaster gets in trouble or someone threatens to kill his familiar... Mr. Fluffy goes aggro, using Confound the Big Folk to dish out massive damage.

I've been trying to come up with a build that uses Knight 4 for Test of Mettle, but it's tough trying to get all the cool stuff into such a feat-intensive build.

Fortunately, it looks like LogicNinja reworked the Melee Killer Gnome:

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-793912

One of the bigger sticking points is due to the Tumble 10 requirement for Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk doesn't kick in until ECL 12. You can get around this using Favored + Primary Contact from Cityscape to pick up Underfoot Combat at ECL 6, and then Confound the Big Folk at ECL 9. (There's some other way to do this with a halfling substitution or a monk substitution, but I can't find out how it works).

Other problems with a Tibbit: Housecat form has -8 to Str, only +2 to Dex. (Hmph. Apparently the designer never tried to give his cat a bath.) Can't activate magic items. 1 full-round action to transform.

Most of the Melee Killer Gnome builds pair Rogue/Monk/Psychic Warrior with Swashbuckler (full BAB helps getting into Blade Bravo, I guess, or maybe the Int bonus on damage). You could probably swap Knight in for Swashbuckler. A few levels of SwordSage + Assassin's Stance could substitute in for 3 levels of Rogue, and use Shadow Blade for Dex bonus on damage.

Fighter 2/SwordSage 3/Knight 4/Blade Bravo X, using Favored+Primary Contact could get Confound the Big Folk at 9, then if the DM allows retrain Favored+Primary Contact into something more useful.

[Serpentine]

Oh, which reminds me... there's the Psionic Sandwich trick. Sandwich might be considered tiny, or diminuative if it was maybe an hors d'erve. Sesame seed could work as fine.A sandwich the size of a cat? o.O That's one bloody big sandwich. And then there's the hors d'erve the size of a bat! :smalleek:

[mostlyharmful]

I don't have races of the Stone but isn't there a PrC that lets you turn into a Gnome for the purposes of feats and Prereqs? If so you could try using the Kobold varient with Sleight Build that gets treated as tiny for all benefits and then just get reduced. That is if Confound the Bigfold needs you to be a gnome. Otherwise just refluff the feat to allow Kobolds to take it.

[Darrin]

Fighter 2/SwordSage 3/Knight 4/Blade Bravo X, using Favored+Primary Contact could get Confound the Big Folk at 9, then if the DM allows retrain Favored+Primary Contact into something more useful.

Psychic Warrior works better, gives you Compress until you can afford a Ring of Reduction:

SwordSage 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Knight 4/SwordSage +2/Blade Bravo X
Race: Whisper Gnome
1) SS1, Feat: Favored, Weapon Focus: Rapier (via Discipline Focus: Diamond Mind)
2) PsyWar 1, Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
3) PsyWar 2, Feat: Primary Contact, Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
4) Knt 1
5) Knt 2
6) Knt 3, Feat: Underfoot Combat
7) Knt 4 (XP Penalty), Retrain: Primary Contact -> Shadow Blade, Test of Mettle
8) SS2 (XP Penalty), Retrain: Favored -> Craven, Assassin's Stance
9) SS3, Feat: Confound the Big Folk
10) Blade Bravo 1
11) Blade Bravo 2
12) Blade Bravo 3, Feat: Staggering Blow, Bonus Feat: Improved Trip or TWF

Replace Shadow Blade/Craven with Dodge/Titan Fighting, if you prefer. Add a level of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse and take another feat for PsyWar 1.

[Darrin]

I don't have races of the Stone but isn't there a PrC that lets you turn into a Gnome for the purposes of feats and Prereqs? If so you could try using the Kobold varient with Sleight Build that gets treated as tiny for all benefits and then just get reduced. That is if Confound the Bigfold needs you to be a gnome. Otherwise just refluff the feat to allow Kobolds to take it.

I thought of that, but Slight Build only applies on opposed checks where there is a size modifier. Attacking via Confound the Big Folk does not incur a size modifier, so it wouldn't work.

Stoneblessed would work for a non-gnome. One level in the Shaper of Form PrC from Dragon Compendium might also work, but requires transmutation spells.

[Person_Man]

Hmmmm, maybe:

Switchblade McStabsalot

Whisper Gnome

Factotum 8/Swordsage 1/Iaijutsu Master 5/Exemplar 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 5

Use the Comp Warrior variant familiarity rules, giving you access to Gnomish Quickrazor (so you don't have to spend a Exotic Weapon Prof feat on it). A Quickrazor can be drawn and put away as a free action, which means that you can use Iajutsu Focus on every attack against a Flat Footed opponent.

Factotum (Dungeonscape) gives you access to a small number of spells (including Reduce Person), plus Iajutsu Focus (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_L5R_Skills) (Oriental Adventures, 3.0 material), Use Magic Device, Use Psionic Device, and Tumble as class Skills. It also gives you Cunning Surge (extra Standard Action), as well as other nice Int related abilities.

Swordsage (Tome of Battle) will give you weapon focus in bastard sword/katana (Disciple Focus:Diamond Mind). It will also give you a few Desert Wind maneuvers (important for later).

Iajutsu Master (Oriental Adventures) has heavy requirements (ranks in Iajutsu Focus, Weapon Focus katana, Improved Initiative, Quickdraw) but it gives you your Cha bonus to damage for every die of Iaijutsu Focus damage, as well as various Int and Cha related abilities.

Exemplar gives you +4 to 1 Skill, plus the ability to Take 10 on Int bonus Skills. Very helpful for Iaijutsu, UMD, UPD, and any ToB Skill maneuvers you might need it for.

Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle) continues to progress your Factotum casting ability (giving you access to Polymorph) and Swordsage Initiator level (which includes 1/2 of all non-Initiator levels as well, giving you access to Desert Tempest).

When you can afford it, buy an Evader Psicrown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm#evader) and Ring of Reduction.

ECL 1-8, you're a social Factotum with mediocre feat choices (Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Quickdraw,). ECL 9 you pick up some ToB fun and Underfoot Combat. ECL 12 you pick up Confound the Big Folk, and can use Iaijutsu Focus every other round against medium or larger enemies. ECL 14-15 that damage becomes much higher. ECL 17 you can cast Polymorph, becoming Fine when needed, or turning into a Cryohydra or something similarly crazy. ECL 20 you pick up Desert Tempest.

Now on the first round of combat, you can hit everyone that you can reach in one move with Desert Tempest. Then you get an extra Move action from Hustle/Evader Psicrown, and an extra Standard Action from Cunning Surge. Iaijutsu Focus (which by this point should be +9d6+[Cha bonus*9]) applies to everyone that you won Initiative against. Then combat begins for everyone else.

Skills, kills, AC, maneuvers, spells, playable at every level - heck, you can even heal with wands if you need to. Did I miss anything?

Sadly, I don't know any DM who would allow this unholy convergence of 3.0 material, Tome of Battle, Dungeonscape, and psionics. But hey, at least its fun to play in my head.

[Grynning]

/applause for the above build - it's pretty neat.

I'm only posting because I was shocked that no-one brought up DMM Persist/Nightsticks/Anyspell cheese. The ring may be the best way to get your semi-permanent shrinkage on, but the DMM abuse does let you do a 24-hour reduce person (Since you prepare the actual wizard spell with Anyspell, you can subsequently meta-magic it with DMM). Don't think it would stack with the ring, though.

[mostlyharmful]

I thought of that, but Slight Build only applies on opposed checks where there is a size modifier. Attacking via Confound the Big Folk does not incur a size modifier, so it wouldn't work.

I'd argue that "A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space" would be effective for squeezing into a space with anouther, larger creature. But it'd be up to the DM, the advantage being that you're only dragging in one splat and not an overpowered one.

[Swooper]

Ideally, I'd like a Fine sized Knight. My AC will be ridiculously high. I should be able to to climb aboard an enemy, and then watch his friends pummel him to death as they try to kill me. When fighting a single enemy, I'd use Spirited Charge (riding a Sparrow?) and two handed Power Attack to deal massive damage. If I could convince a DM to allow me to use Iaijutsu Focus, it would just be ridiculous.
Please don't tell me I was the only one thinking about the pair of brownies from the movie Willow at this point. :smallbiggrin:

[Alleine]

A shame that the only +0 LA Tiny races (Jermalaine and Muckdweller) don't have explicit "Jermalaine as Characters" entires.

Why would you need explicit "As characters" sections? They have LA +0 so you can therefore use them. It doesn't say LA for a cohort, or anything, just straight up LA. And its easy to do all the ability scores and such, there are sections in the SRD for getting the details of a race.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs

[Person_Man]

I've been trying to come up with a build that uses Knight 4 for Test of Mettle, but it's tough trying to get all the cool stuff into such a feat-intensive build.

Maybe Knight 4/Bard 1/War Chanter 10/Whatever 5

Knight gives you Test of Mettle. With Ability Focus and Cha as your primary attribute, you should be able to get a Save DC in the low 20's.

Bard gives Use Magic Device, Tumble, and entry to Chanter.

Chanter gives you full BAB, additional Bardic/Chanter music uses, plus Inspire Recklessness (Shock Trooper), Combine Songs (2 songs at once), Inspire Awe (a pretty potent Fear effect), and Inspire Legion (everyone in your party uses the highest BAB of the group - great when combined with Summons).

Take Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin), which forces a single enemy to Save or take a -10 to attacks/saves/checks for 1 round. At 12th level, take Confound the Big Folk.


Prior to combat, use a wand or ring of Reduce Person.

Round 1: Move into an enemy's square. Use Doomspeak and/or Inspire Awe on his friends to debuff them. Use Test of Mettle as a Swift Action. Some of them should fail and attack you (and/or run in fear). Your friends should focus on those who succeed, and then gangbang those who passed one at a time.

Round 2: Enemies attack you. They have a 50% chance of hitting their friend, and a 50% chance of hitting you (which should be very difficult, given your Size, Dex, armor, shield, Underfoot/Confound bonuses, and Combat Expertise). Use another Bardic effect, fight on the full defensive, or attack one of the people attacking you. If they kill the enemy whose square you're in, move into another enemy's square.

If your enemies are immune to Mind Effecting effects, then buff your friends instead.

This might work better with some other Bard PrC. I just picked Warchanter off the top of my head because of the BAB and Inspire Awe.

Thoughts?