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Brauron
2008-04-14, 12:12 PM
My girlfriend has expressed an interest in playing D&D. She's an excellent roleplayer, having run the gauntlet in the Call of Cthulhu campaign I ran from September to March. Thing is, that was with BRP Cthulhu, which is a fairly simple system, mechanically, and I'm a little concerned that the more intricate rules of D&D might bog her down and bore her.

The campaign I'm planning for D&D is four players, starting at level 1. The other characters are a Gnome Wizard, a Human Scout, and a Paladin that will probably be human.

So I'm planning to take some time later this week to talk to her about the world, the different races, and different character roles, and see what she has an interest in playing. I'm probably going to very gently suggest something simple, that doesn't require her to keep track of a lot of rules.

Any thoughts on this? Classes, races recommended? I may have spoiled Barbarian because over dinner the other night I mentioned that in my opinion it was the easiest class to motivate to go adventuring -- "Adventuring gets me gold, gold gets me ale and women."

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-14, 12:15 PM
The party seems to be missing a healer. Unfortunately, healbot is the most incredibly boring thing to play- you could try a CN Cleric of Olidammara channeling negative energy (I steal your undead!) to allow a bit of healing without it being all she does.

batsofchaos
2008-04-14, 12:19 PM
I always suggest Clerics to new players. The spell lists for clerics is fairly easy to cope with, and there's usually less paper-work for them. I help them come up with a list of spells to memorize, and then they just memorize those same spells every day, changing a couple out as the situation dictates. After they pick up the rules more, they can change it up, but until then they have the full-casting thing without it being a heck of a lot of work and they can also exchange blows like the tanks can. They're a nice, all-purpose sort of character that has a very nice learning curve if handled properly.

EDIT: Ninja'd with a major conflicting opinion.

Kol Korran
2008-04-14, 12:20 PM
Cthulu is very atmospheric, and allready involves gods and the supernatural. how about picking something fairly simple, with a lot of roleplay possibilites? what i suggest is to go for Favored Soul:
- the mechanics are simple, she got a limited spell selection, but she can use them a lot, which is always fun for new players.
- the demands of faith need not be as strignent as those of a cleric, and there is no need to delve into the use of turn undead/divine feats, and the domains.
- there are many possibilities for roleplay here.
- she wil be adequate in battle.
- she fills in the healer/cleric part of your party (though i'd suggest the party soon invest in a CLW wand so no to rely on her).

as to race- just try to keep to the simple ones. no LA or such to begin with.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-14, 12:20 PM
I never understand why healbots are classed as that boring (as my sig suggests, I am bias in this regard, though). If she wants to play as a Cleric, Augment Healing could be useful, as is Augment Summoning if she'd enjoy summoning things as opposed to controlling undead (this feat needs Spell Focus (Conjuration), so it wouldn't be a good choice unless she is going to summon a lot of creatures. Human would be good race-wise due to how simple their racial features are. Alternatively, she may like the Shapeshifter Druid variant: it's less powerful then a normal Druid, and it requires less book keeping de to not having an animal companion, and Shapeshifting is less complicated then Wildshaping. I also agree with Kol's suggestion.

Solo
2008-04-14, 12:21 PM
Either a Druid or Sorcerer.

Burley
2008-04-14, 12:21 PM
Well, I know this is a real shocker, but I'd suggest Warlock. They're really easy to get, mechanically, since it's really a point-and-click class. The selection is small, so, there's little stress about what choices to make. ~cougheldritchglaivecough~ Also, the most invocations that are worth taking either have an all day duration, and they're all at-will anyways, so, she'll be able to get a feel for when to use what without having to ration out abilities, like many casters must. Plus, UMD-UMD-UMD! At first level, it's possible to have a plus 8 in UMD, which is pretty gosh darned great. Pack some wands later on, and some magic items to pump in up some more. They make a very effective healer.

That's my two copper.

elliott20
2008-04-14, 12:23 PM
well, the thing about D&D is that the simplest classes tend to also be the generally least powerful ones. So that's something you might have to consider. If your gruop is not the type to routinely pull out CoDzillas or the likes, then yeah, a Barbarian or warrior-type might be the most accessable while still being feasible power-wise.

I would suggest you don't try to suggest any build with too many mechanical twists. For one thing, that will get too confusing. For another, if she's good enough at the whole RPing aspect, she should be able to find a way to make even the more mundane characters look like fun.

Of course, you could also suggest she play one of the more "complicated" characters like say a sorceror, but then just help her out with spells and such by giving her flash cards with the spells written on top. This way, she'll have her easy references, and if she wants, she can even use them to remember what spells she has memorized.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-14, 12:26 PM
I like Clerics, as the Olidammara example might suggest- it's just standing there and healing that doesn't particularly appeal. Favoured Soul would probably be a good choice (being an experienced roleplayer, give her a big list of gods and tell her to pick one that appeals!).

Solo
2008-04-14, 12:31 PM
Well, I know this is a real shocker, but I'd suggest Warlock.

If only there was a well written guide for newbies as to how to play the Warlock!

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-14, 12:32 PM
What exactly is Olidammara like as a diety? I'm just curious about why you suggested him in particular.

Brauron
2008-04-14, 12:57 PM
OK, quick correction: We have a Human Swashbuckler who plans to multiclass to Scout at 2nd level, instead of a Human Scout.

The guy who's playing the Gnome Wizard plays clerics almost exclusively, and recommended we nudge my girlfriend gently in the direction of Cleric, and offered to help her with the character in any way she needed.

I suppose I should offer a little background on the world...

There's two main countries, one based on Ancient/Mythic Greece, the other on Ancient/Mythic Egypt. Egypt has Gnomes but no Halflings, Greece has Halflings but no Gnomes. There's two different "subraces" of Dwarf, one in Egypt and one in Greece, the only real difference in linguistic, they speak two different dialects of Dwarven, which are only about as different as German and Yiddish. about 50% of the Elves in the world are off on their own continent, in a Melnibonean-inspired culture. The rest of the Elves have completely assimilated into either the Egyptian or Greek cultures. None of them are fully-trusted, with Half-Elves being more readily accepted than full-blooded Elves.

There's a strong, though not tremendous emphasis on Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, the Knowledge Skills and knowing multiple languages in my games.

Most classes are allowed, though some are reflavored by me. Monk and Ninja are banned outright, as A) they don't fit into the world and B) I really dislike the Ninja class and feel it was very vaguely written. As a DM, the Ninja class has caused me more headaches then any other, so now I just don't allow it.

PHB races only. Half-Orc traits vary slightly depending on whether they were raised Orcish or Human. Orc-raised Half-Orcs get Orcish as an automatic language, Human-raised Half-Orcs get an extra four skill points at character creation, but don't get the human bonus skill point at subsequent levels.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-14, 01:01 PM
I've played one, and it was fun. Best moment? I had a couple of Faith feats from Complete Divine, and said,

"Let's all get drunk!"

DM's response? "Faith point."

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-14, 01:05 PM
I take it you were playing as a Cleric of an alcohol diety at the time, right? :smallbiggrin: That sounds like an interesting campaign world. How are Ninjas a problem though? (I don't have any experience with the class).

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-14, 01:42 PM
Yeah, Olidammara (would've made more sense if it was immediately after the post asking if there was any reason why I said Olidammara).

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-14, 01:49 PM
Sorry about getting confused. My prefered diety is Ehlonna if I'm honest (would you say her Domain selection is very good?).


(V) Thanks (I can see why that would get annoying quickly).

Brauron
2008-04-14, 01:49 PM
I take it you were playing as a Cleric of an alcohol diety at the time, right? :smallbiggrin: That sounds like an interesting campaign world. How are Ninjas a problem though? (I don't have any experience with the class).

For me the problem with Ninjas is as much the people I've had choose to play them in the past as the class itself, and perhaps I am being unfair to the class.

There's nothing in the Ninja class that Rogue does not do, and do better.

The only real thing the Ninja has going for it is its Ghost Step ability, which allows the Ninja to go invisible, and at higher levels, Ethereal. But the Ninja's ability to go Invisible is not qualified as being "like the spell Invisibility" and thus I've had players repeatedly argue, and argue in game after I've asked them to please go along with my ruling as DM and wait to discuss it with me after the session has ended, that because it does not clarify that the Ninja's ability to go invisible is like the spell, things such as "See Invisibility" and "Glitterdust" should not cause the Ninja to be seen.

Darrin
2008-04-14, 02:03 PM
Any thoughts on this? Classes, races recommended? I may have spoiled Barbarian because over dinner the other night I mentioned that in my opinion it was the easiest class to motivate to go adventuring -- "Adventuring gets me gold, gold gets me ale and women."

Ranger. Mechanically simple, you don't have to explain spellcasting until level 4, and easy to describe the concept: "You like nature but aren't quite so far gone as those HUG-THE-TREES-OR-DIE Druids. You hate <favored enemy> because they killed your parents or puppy or something. And elven chicks totally dig you, just like Aragorn." Power-wise, they stack up somewhat favorably, and don't have a lot of dead levels.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-14, 02:08 PM
Favoured enermies could also be seen as opponants who the Ranger respects as opponants or sees as a huge threat, hence the fact that s/he put more time into learning how to combat them (I thought I'd suggest that in case your girlfriend doesn't want a depressing backstory).

PnP Fan
2008-04-14, 02:14 PM
Sorcerer, in my opinion, is probably one of the easier classes to play. Limited spell list, minimal amount of planning, only a handful of rules to learn (how to cast a spell, the specific rules for the specific spells known, and that's about it).
Fighter types, I think, are actually harder to learn I think, because you really have to be familiar with the entire combat section to play effectively.

Wizard/cleric/druids are a little harder because you have to do a lot more planning, and good planning requires RL experience with how to play the game.

Just my opinion though.

Ascension
2008-04-14, 02:16 PM
While it's true that a cleric would be best for your party, barbarian is always my recommendation for new players. The only concepts you really have to explain are "RAGE!" and "POWER ATTACK!" and, unlike fighters, they can actually be quite useful even with a simplistic strategy. And there's really nothing stopping you from having a complex backstory as a barbarian, it's just normally not done.

Your mileage may vary.

Person_Man
2008-04-14, 02:33 PM
New player?

Rogue. Teach her how to Tumble and Flank. Coordinate with the Scout so that they don't have overlapping Skill sets. Invest in Use Magic Device and give her plenty of interesting Wands.

That takes care of the healing problem, it lets her do plenty of roleplaying (especially if she focuses on social Skills), and its fun/easy to play.

Doomsy
2008-04-14, 02:36 PM
I second barbarian. Failing that, favored soul is very easy - especially with a greek and egyptian style pantheon, where you could literally claim to be descended from or a favorite of a deity with absolute ease.

Fighter is also good, though the feat selection might take some careful explaining so she knows the pitfalls and actual viability without feeling railroaded.

Ranger is also pretty solid. I'd also recommend spirit shaman, but uh, they're niche at best and really don't function well unless the DM actively helps tailor the enemies and situations. They *are* surprisingly easy to play and fun from an RP perspective.

Deepblue706
2008-04-14, 02:46 PM
Barbarians are plain and straightforward, and since they do so much damage, they're hella fun. So, probably worth considering. Unfortunately, this means the Paladin will be doing all the healing. But then, she can always multiclass.

Sorcerers are really good for a beginner, but having so few HPs may be upsetting to a newbie. They're more likely to die at lower levels and that's not a fun experience when you're new. Still, no healer, which can be rough.

A Cleric may be a solid choice - being able to operate with magic and a weapon is fun because you're less tied-down. She may not make the best spell selections, but if someone helps and makes a few suggestions for a couple of sessions, she may catch on and learn to make decisions well. This fulfills your healer, too.

I'd suggest considering Ranger, too, since it's simple and effective in combat and in situations where some skills are necessary.

Megafly
2008-04-14, 07:26 PM
Thirding Favored Soul. Her high Charisma also could help her be the party's negotiator and "Face Man"

FlyMolo
2008-04-14, 07:31 PM
Well, I know this is a real shocker, but I'd suggest Warlock. They're really easy to get, mechanically, since it's really a point-and-click class. The selection is small, so, there's little stress about what choices to make. ~cougheldritchglaivecough~ Also, the most invocations that are worth taking either have an all day duration, and they're all at-will anyways, so, she'll be able to get a feel for when to use what without having to ration out abilities, like many casters must. Plus, UMD-UMD-UMD! At first level, it's possible to have a plus 8 in UMD, which is pretty gosh darned great. Pack some wands later on, and some magic items to pump in up some more. They make a very effective healer.

That's my two copper.
QFT. Squared.

You can be blaster, melee-lock killing everything in sight(overlooked handy feat, supernatural transformation, SS. No AoO or SR on your EB), utility guy, battlefield control, whatever.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 10:42 PM
The party seems to be missing a healer. Unfortunately, healbot is the most incredibly boring thing to play- you could try a CN Cleric of Olidammara channeling negative energy (I steal your undead!) to allow a bit of healing without it being all she does.Actually, if you want the flexibility to do things other than healing, you should channel positive energy, not negative. If you channel negative energy, then whatever healing spells you want to be able to cast have to be prepared in advance, and you can't swap them out for anything useful (inflict spells do not count as useful). If you channel positive energy, though, you can fill up all of your spell slots with interesting and potentially useful spells, and then when you find out which ones you actually needed, you can turn whatever's left into healing.

HoopyFrood
2008-04-14, 10:51 PM
My first character was a monk...

Now it probably wouldn't be my first choice, but that monk was a lot of fun. I would tell your first time character to pick out the class that fits the role they want to play and screw the complexity issues. She can figure it out.

An interesting character is more fun to play than a "good" one... well, depending on the GM.

Avor
2008-04-14, 11:05 PM
Easiest class ever, fighter. All you need to do is add up your attack bonus, and roll away. By the time you are ready for more, you are ready to pick up fun feats like improved disarm and trip.

Also, easy back story.

-What is your character's motavation? Why does he get drunk, travel, and fight.
- Because he's Irish :P

Hal
2008-04-14, 11:12 PM
My first character was a monk...

Now it probably wouldn't be my first choice, but that monk was a lot of fun. I would tell your first time character to pick out the class that fits the role they want to play and screw the complexity issues. She can figure it out.

An interesting character is more fun to play than a "good" one... well, depending on the GM.

I'm going to second this. If she's looking for you to give her a role, then all of the above discussion is fine. However, there's something to be said for playing a character that YOU are happy with. It'll bring you into the game far more than being saddled with someone you can't connect to or identify with.

Write up a one sentence description of the PHB classes (or whatever's been suggested above). If there's something that sounds particularly interesting to her, help her write up that character.

Nohwl
2008-04-14, 11:23 PM
instead of suggesting classes to her, why not ask something more like what do you want your character to do? and ask her how she wants her character to fight. then tell her the classes that fit the description she gives.

Nychta
2008-04-14, 11:50 PM
I would go with sorceror, but if there's a wizard, you can feel overshadowed. So I'll go with fighter, for easy builds and heaps of RP opportunities. Or barbarian.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-15, 01:22 AM
The problem with Fighters is that the large amount of feats which they get could be confusing for a new player (unless your using retraining rules, any feats you pick are perminant, but with Divine Spellcasters you can at least stop preparing less useful spells as and when you decide you don't want to use them anymore).

Devils_Advocate
2008-04-15, 02:27 PM
There's a strong, though not tremendous emphasis on Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, the Knowledge Skills and knowing multiple languages in my games.
A bard would be able to cover those things quite well, serving as the "party face", and picking up a few stray Knowledge skills not covered by other characters. (History, local, and nobility and royalty are recommended for the synergy bonuses they give to bardiness.) The Scout's skill list is mostly stealth and mobility stuff, so having a second skill monkey to cover social skills could be a good idea. A bard can heal, too, especially once the party can afford a wand of cure light wounds, though a bard can't counter all of the afflictions a cleric can. This seems like it could be an ideal choice if your girlfriend enjoys engaging NPCs in conversation instead of or in addition to engaging them in combat.

Of course, if the Swashbuckler/Scout plans to take the Able Learner feat and be the party face, that could be a bit redundant. You might want to ask whether the player plans on taking the character in that direction.

Also, what Nohwl said. Ask her if she already has an idea for a character or a party role in mind; that could help to narrow things down.