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hawkboy772042
2008-04-14, 12:20 PM
I would like to know the best strategy to kill the tarrasque with pure melee without any magic. However, potions and magical weapons are allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Burley
2008-04-14, 12:28 PM
Tarrasque comes back? Wow...it'd been almost a whole month since the same question was asked. Is that a record?

Okay, read the Terrasque description. It can ONLY be destroyed with Wish or Miracle. That's it. Sure, you could Melee it until it was unconscious if you had the right equipment, but without Wish or Miracle, it'll stand up and eat you.

The End.

Gorbash
2008-04-14, 12:30 PM
You can't. Simple as that.

EDIT: ninja'd :smallyuk:

Douglas
2008-04-14, 12:32 PM
Magic weapons are allowed, which includes the Luck Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade). There's your Wish.

I'll leave the matter of how to pummel it into unconsciousness for someone else.

Solo
2008-04-14, 12:32 PM
Crusader with a 1d2 weapon that deals nonlethal damage and the right feats.....

AKA_Bait
2008-04-14, 12:33 PM
If you are allowed magical items see if you can get a ring of 3 wishes (or a ring of one wish) or if only weapons, see if you can homebrew a Sword of Wishing or some such thing. As Burley Warlock pointed out, that's pretty much the only way you can actually kill it.

Edit: Bloody ninjas!

Sir *TIM!!!!!!*
2008-04-14, 12:43 PM
Unless this Tarrasque is a variant without the Wish-to-keep-dead requirement, I don't think it is possible to kill it without using magic. Using a Bag of Holding+Portable Hole rift to the Astral Plane could send it away, but that doesn't seem to be what you're asking; I think you're asking for the best way to get the Big T 'dead' so it can be perma-killed with a Wish.

Hmm...

It has a nasty 18-20x3 critical, and the grappling+Swallow Whole ability isn't very adventurer-friendly either, so I would honestly stay out of reach (it has only a 20ft movement speed, but a 20ft reach as well. Watch out for the rush--it can move at a speed of 150ft once every ten rounds.

It would help to know the composition of your party, although I assume it's entirely or very nearly entirely melee.

Any strategy to beat the Tarrasque should rely on A. Not being hit. and B. Damaging it as fast as possible because A will happen at some point. It seems like you are getting in close without ranged weapons, so:

Potions and other one or few use items will be very useful. They will deplete your treasury, but are generally more powerful than many-use items. Freedom of movement effects will help too (protection from grappling will make the Tarrasque much less deadly.

Also, keep plenty of healing around, but make sure never to take a break from pounding away at the Tarrasque, because with regeneration 40 it can be at full health--from 0--in about a minute.

Haste, natural armor, and DR effects such as Stoneskin are a must.

Deepblue706
2008-04-14, 12:44 PM
You could dual-wield lances and do a spirited charge. Just carry a luck blade in your back pocket, or something.

sikyon
2008-04-14, 12:44 PM
You can also kill it by removing the (Ex) Regeneration ability which provides the resurrection capacity. Polymorph it. Sword of polymorph any object?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 12:48 PM
Depending on the cheese level, you could build an Uber Charger that can easily deal damage in the thousands in a round. Do that, and cast Wish from an item before Big T has time to regen the damage. Make sure you have a ring of FoM. Make sure you have an item of Wraithstrike. Boost your speed to insane amounts. It wouldn't hurt to have an item of +20 Tumble either, so you can tumble during the charge.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 12:51 PM
Tarrasque comes back? Wow...it'd been almost a whole month since the same question was asked. Is that a record?

Okay, read the Terrasque description. It can ONLY be destroyed with Wish or Miracle. That's it. Sure, you could Melee it until it was unconscious if you had the right equipment, but without Wish or Miracle, it'll stand up and eat you.

The End.

Actually, the Tarrasque's regeneration doesn't prevent death from natural causes (In the same way that Death Ward doesn't prevent you from drowning). It's possible to kill it without Wish or Miracle, but it pretty much involves Planar Shift to the Plane of Water, or a plane with Positive Energy.

And at any rate, apparently a Luck Blade can do it..

senrath
2008-04-14, 01:06 PM
Actually, the Tarrasque's regeneration doesn't prevent death from natural causes (In the same way that Death Ward doesn't prevent you from drowning). It's possible to kill it without Wish or Miracle, but it pretty much involves Planar Shift to the Plane of Water, or a plane with Positive Energy.

And at any rate, apparently a Luck Blade can do it..

Actually, that's not right:
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 01:11 PM
You're not slain when you drown. Good day to that. THe Tarrasque's regeneration doesn't protect against death. It protects against Death Effects, and Death by HP Damage.

skywalker
2008-04-14, 01:12 PM
Actually, that's not right:

Luck Blades usually come with wishes installed. It's like a ring of three wishes, but in sword form.

senrath
2008-04-14, 01:16 PM
Luck Blades usually come with wishes installed. It's like a ring of three wishes, but in sword form.

I know that part. The that's not right was to the "it can drown". Which apparently it can, my bad. But good luck holding it underwater for 70+ rounds.

Solo
2008-04-14, 01:17 PM
I know that part. The that's not right was to the "it can drown". Which apparently it can, my bad. But good luck holding it underwater for 70+ rounds.

Infinite damage Crusader to the rescue!

senrath
2008-04-14, 01:19 PM
Infinite damage Crusader to the rescue!

My problem with the 1d2 crusader is that technically you never stop rolling for damage. Meaning that you never actually do any of that wonderful damage, because you've effectively killed the game :P

Rutee
2008-04-14, 01:20 PM
I know that part. The that's not right was to the "it can drown". Which apparently it can, my bad. But good luck holding it underwater for 70+ rounds.

Yeah, that's why you port it to the Plane of Water. Your job is done. In about 10 minutes it'll be dead. I think it'd take much longer if you sent it to a Positive Energy Plane (The kind where you gain temporary HP, enough to /explode/..) but should be possible on the same principle.

Solo
2008-04-14, 01:26 PM
My problem with the 1d2 crusader is that technically you never stop rolling for damage. Meaning that you never actually do any of that wonderful damage, because you've effectively killed the game :P

And if so, does not the Tarresque also die?:smallamused:

Rutee
2008-04-14, 01:31 PM
Well played. Divide by Zero errors do technically kill the tarrasque along with the rest of the universe. And you accomplished yours with pure melee. Very well played, sir.

RTGoodman
2008-04-14, 01:36 PM
My problem with the 1d2 crusader is that technically you never stop rolling for damage. Meaning that you never actually do any of that wonderful damage, because you've effectively killed the game :P

I'd dispute this. Aura of Chaos says, "You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maxiumum possible result...". So, if you don't want to do so, you don't have to. Or, at least, that's the way I interpret it.

Infinite-Damage Crusader is the way I was going to suggest - hit it enough to where it can't regenerate in one round, and then use a luckblade, ring of three wishes, or whatnot to keep it dead.

Deepblue706
2008-04-14, 01:54 PM
My problem with the 1d2 crusader is that technically you never stop rolling for damage. Meaning that you never actually do any of that wonderful damage, because you've effectively killed the game :P

Reminds me of the hypothetical superpower of "Timestop", which never actually implies you can make it start again. Nobody can argue this is unrealistic, because for all we know, people out there know how to do it - it's just they know they can't turn it back on, so they don't bother trying to prove it. :smallbiggrin:

Another niche D&D can successfully emulate!

elliott20
2008-04-14, 02:03 PM
This thread
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

D&D: geeks way of testing out knowledge that humanity was never meant to understand

Burley
2008-04-14, 02:08 PM
Okay. So, it's agreed that you can't just Melee the crap out of it. You have to cast Wish or Miracle, be it from a caster, or an item. And, I think using a Ring of Three Wishes, or even a Luck Blade, being an item that casts a spell, counts as casting a spell, and, therefore, isn't killing it with melee. I'm fairly sure the OP didn't mean: What item casts wish for me?

Along with that, teleporting it to a plane to kill it would require a spell, would it not? Even if you found some way to teleport it with only melee (that'd be a pretty amazing crit), it still wouldn't "die". Send it to the Plane of Water, and it'll float around unconcious. That's it. Nobody Wished it dead, so, it floats around in the stages of drowning before actual death.
Also, the Positive 'Explosion" Plane trick wouldn't work, either. Once it gets that many temporary hit points, it explodes...dealing lethal damage...which it's immune to. So...yeah, it'd eventually go unconcious, but, still, nobody has wished it.

I say: It can't be done. If you don't have the right materials, leave the thing alone.

elliott20
2008-04-14, 02:23 PM
Burley, this means though, that if the GM wants to bring the creature back, they can totally do it the Marvel way!

"well, actually, Tarrasques require more than that to kill. you see, you just trapped it in a prison of water... for now...."

Sequal-rific!

Chronos
2008-04-14, 02:30 PM
The infinite-damage crusader isn't pure melee, though, is it? I thought you needed to cast a spell somewhere in there, to activate the Imbued Healing.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 02:31 PM
Along with that, teleporting it to a plane to kill it would require a spell, would it not? Even if you found some way to teleport it with only melee (that'd be a pretty amazing crit), it still wouldn't "die". Send it to the Plane of Water, and it'll float around unconcious. That's it. Nobody Wished it dead, so, it floats around in the stages of drowning before actual death.
Also, the Positive 'Explosion" Plane trick wouldn't work, either. Once it gets that many temporary hit points, it explodes...dealing lethal damage...which it's immune to. So...yeah, it'd eventually go unconcious, but, still, nobody has wished it.

Oh it takes spells. I was objecting to the "It only dies to miracle and wish" stipulation, not saying a theoretical meleer can do it.

And, check the Tarrasque Regeneration bit, if you will. It prevents
1: Death Effects (Drowning and Death by OD of Positive energy are not "Death Effects", similar to how paralysis from Dex 0 is not a Paralysis Effect)
2: Death by HP Damage

Drowning and Deathby OD of Positive Energy are not Death Effects, or Death by HP Damage (There is no damage listed in the explosion. You die. The explosion is the visual effect).

Funkyodor
2008-04-14, 04:16 PM
...The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp).

Bolded for clarity. It states spell or effect, not Death Effect. So, Exploding on the positive plane would make it really angry, then back to full HP very quickly only to explode repeatedly.

Drowning is a gray area. I don't agree that

You're not slain when you drown. Good day to that. THe Tarrasque's regeneration doesn't protect against death. It protects against Death Effects, and Death by HP Damage.
If you are not slain when you drown then you are alive. There is only several status' available. Dead, Unconscious, or Alive.

Another complication is that you have to knock it down to -10 HP on the same round that you use wish. Else it will regenerate some and Wish won't work.

Baleful Polymorph / Polymorph any Object will work if you can get around the Fort save and Spell Resistance.

Solo
2008-04-14, 04:21 PM
The infinite-damage crusader isn't pure melee, though, is it? I thought you needed to cast a spell somewhere in there, to activate the Imbued Healing.

Yes, but the point is, he's hitting it with a melee thing.

Eldariel
2008-04-14, 04:25 PM
Hulking Hurler. Throw heavy things at it repeatedly. If it's unconscious until the end of the universe, it's effectively dead.

If you really want to do actual melee, make a character with Wings and high speed. Just rack up the damage with enchantments and what not, make dive attacks with Spring Attack, Dervish Dance, Pouncing Charge > Shadow Blink or whatever until it's dead.

I recall Trollbane coating allows you to kill Tarrasque. Something to do with the 'Ques text not covering non-magical effects that prevent regeneration.


Really, I want to see a character that can't solo Tarrasque on level 20. Now that would be something.

Ossian
2008-04-14, 04:28 PM
It wouldn't hurt to have an item of +20 Tumble either, so you can tumble during the charge.

OT: why would you want to tumble during a charge? :smalleek:

holywhippet
2008-04-14, 04:36 PM
OT: why would you want to tumble during a charge? :smalleek:

I'm thinking because it has pretty good reach so charging in to melee range will attract an attack of opportunity which tumble can prevent.

Would you be able to use a sphere of annihilation to take a tarrasque out?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 04:37 PM
I'm thinking because it has pretty good reach so charging in to melee range will attract an attack of opportunity which tumble can prevent.

whippet has the correct answer. Big T has like 20 ft reach. I don't wanna charge through that unprotected.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 04:46 PM
Another complication is that you have to knock it down to -10 HP on the same round that you use wish. Else it will regenerate some and Wish won't work.That's not really a problem. If you have something you can do to get it down to -10 (actually nonlethal equal to its HP plus 10) while it's up and about and trying to eat you, then you can surely do that same thing again while it's passed out. Just get it up to, say, a round thousand nonlethal damage, and you've got a few rounds to get out your scroll of Wish or luckblade or whatever.

Douglas
2008-04-14, 05:01 PM
Even if you found some way to teleport it with only melee (that'd be a pretty amazing crit).
Prismatic Burst weapon property from Magic Item Compendium. On a successful critical hit, it casts Prismatic Spray on the target. Get the right random effect and get Big T to fail his save, and he gets teleported to a random plane.

As for the whole send-to-plane-of-water/positive energy thing, that doesn't work. If it did, you would have caused the Tarrasque's death through your own actions, which is pretty much the definition of slaying him, which is explicitly impossible without Wish or Miracle. Whether the cause of death is direct or indirect is irrelevant - if any deliberate action with the intended goal of his death is involved, it counts as slaying him, which requires Wish or Miracle.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 05:09 PM
If you are not slain when you drown then you are alive. There is only several status' available. Dead, Unconscious, or Alive.
You die. You are not /slain/. Dying is natural. Slain is not. Death by drowning is natural.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-14, 05:17 PM
You die. You are not /slain/. Dying is natural. Slain is not. Death by drowning is natural.

Going to have to disagree with you on this one. If I gave you a pair of cement shoes and tossed you off the brooklyn bridge you would have drowned but the police would not rule it as death by natural causes, it would be a murder. I would have slain you, by drowing you.

However, the planeshifting would effectivley neutralize the critter eternally, since it would be unconscious from the 'drowining'.

konfeta
2008-04-14, 05:25 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slay

slay Audio Help /sleɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sley] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, slew, slain, slay·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1. to kill by violence.

You can argue about what the definition of "slay" is in context of DnD or whatever; but isn't this topic about beating the big T with a melee build?

Solo
2008-04-14, 05:38 PM
Going to have to disagree with you on this one. If I gave you a pair of cement shoes and tossed you off the brooklyn bridge you would have drowned but the police would not rule it as death by natural causes, it would be a murder. I would have slain you, by drowing you.


Hey, it's perfectly natural to die from being drowned.

Douglas
2008-04-14, 05:45 PM
It is also perfectly natural to die from a dagger through your heart. Outside of drow cities and similar cultures, I doubt you'll find any law enforcement organization that would buy that argument without some major corruption and bribery.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 05:47 PM
Except that legal responsibility is more nebulous. Unless the water is being wielded by something, ditto the positive energy, it's pretty much a natural death, because that's the natural state of the plane.

Mind, this has much greater consequences then a Wish or Miracle. Whoever lives on that plane is going to be /pissed/ with you for a while. Possibly forever.

Overlord
2008-04-14, 05:49 PM
Going to have to disagree with you on this one. If I gave you a pair of cement shoes and tossed you off the brooklyn bridge you would have drowned but the police would not rule it as death by natural causes, it would be a murder. I would have slain you, by drowing you.

However, the planeshifting would effectivley neutralize the critter eternally, since it would be unconscious from the 'drowining'.

I would say that my pair of shoes killed me.

...What?

Although, I do recall that one famous article about how to kill the tarrasque. I think I have a copy of it on my hard drive. One of the points listed was indeed the drowning method. The only problem is, you had to dig a really deep pit. If you have magic items, of course, that's no problem. Certainly, a mattock of the titans is a very worthy investment if it lets you divert a river into your homemade pit of death.

Solo
2008-04-14, 05:51 PM
Although, I do recall that one famous article about how to kill the tarrasque. I think I have a copy of it on my hard drive. One of the points listed was indeed the drowning method. The only problem is, you had to dig a really deep pit. If you have magic items, of course, that's no problem. Certainly, a mattock of the titans is a very worthy investment if it lets you divert a river into your homemade pit of death.

Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Gate to Elemental Plane of Water.

Megafly
2008-04-14, 06:05 PM
Going to have to disagree with you on this one. If I gave you a pair of cement shoes and tossed you off the Brooklyn bridge you would have drowned but the police would not rule it as death by natural causes, it would be a murder. I would have slain you, by drowing you.

Ah, but what if you just left him in the desert without water? or dropped him off in a bad part of town with 100's superglued to his skin? there is actively killing someone and there is putting them in a circumstance that will result in their death and those are different things. I think the Saw movies are based entirely on this premise.

Overlord
2008-04-14, 06:28 PM
Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Gate to Elemental Plane of Water.

Well, yeah, but if you can cast Gate you should be able to cast Wish. Of course, drowning the Tarrasque might actually be easier than the 'normal' method....

Regord_Silentflame
2008-04-14, 06:29 PM
I consider death by heart-attack to be much more natural than death by drowning, yet the tarrasque is immune to any effect that would give it a heart attack.

Besides, as was mentioned before, any attempt to kill the tarrasque, even by making it make its self trip into water and drown, would be a deliberate attempt to kill it, thus you'd be slaying it. (to kill using violence (Violence being an rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment, and I believe drowning would count as injurious physical treatment on the part of nature)), and you cannot slay the tarrasque without using wish or miracle.

Eldariel
2008-04-14, 06:54 PM
I consider death by heart-attack to be much more natural than death by drowning, yet the tarrasque is immune to any effect that would give it a heart attack.

Besides, as was mentioned before, any attempt to kill the tarrasque, even by making it make its self trip into water and drown, would be a deliberate attempt to kill it, thus you'd be slaying it. (to kill using violence (Violence being an rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment, and I believe drowning would count as injurious physical treatment on the part of nature)), and you cannot slay the tarrasque without using wish or miracle.

You can wait until it trips into a sea by itself though. It isn't too agile nor smart so it's bound to happen eventually. Then you have technically beaten it as you've waited long enough (be an Elan and stay out).

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:18 PM
I consider death by heart-attack to be much more natural than death by drowning, yet the tarrasque is immune to any effect that would give it a heart attack.

Besides, as was mentioned before, any attempt to kill the tarrasque, even by making it make its self trip into water and drown, would be a deliberate attempt to kill it, thus you'd be slaying it. (to kill using violence (Violence being an rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment, and I believe drowning would count as injurious physical treatment on the part of nature)), and you cannot slay the tarrasque without using wish or miracle.

Too vague to use this definition. Way too vague. There's no way to enforce intent. The laws of physics don't care.

Regord_Silentflame
2008-04-14, 07:31 PM
Too vague to use this definition. Way too vague. There's no way to enforce intent. The laws of physics don't care.

You're debating whether or not you can kill a tarrasque based on semantics, and the fact the writers of the monster manual allowed the word "slay" to be printed instead of "die", but you're not allowing fate to "slay" something?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:35 PM
You're debating whether or not you can kill a tarrasque based on semantics, and the fact the writers of the monster manual allowed the word "slay" to be printed instead of "die", but you're not allowing fate to "slay" something?

The universe can't tell whether I tripped a terrasque into the ocean or whether it fell by itself. Seriously. There is no meaningful way to enforce this kinda thing. Intent does not matter. Natural causes are natural causes. If an innocent bystander fails to help big T by refusing to say...give a hand to pull Big T out (yes I know it sounds ridiculous), does that count as the bystander trying to "slay" big T and hence big T will be immune?

Regord_Silentflame
2008-04-14, 07:39 PM
but slay doesn't have to mean intent from a mortal creature, in a world with pantheons of gods and magic abundant, an accident would be deemed "fate", so thus fate would have slain the tarrasque, so then it can't die.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:40 PM
but slay doesn't have to mean intent from a mortal creature, in a world with pantheons of gods and magic abundant, an accident would be deemed "fate", so thus fate would have slain the tarrasque, so then it can't die.

Why not? I think it can. Sure the gods will create another one, but...

Regord_Silentflame
2008-04-14, 07:42 PM
Why not? I think it can. Sure the gods will create another one, but...

it can't because the regeneration section in it's description states it cannot be slain aside from using a wish or miracle spell?

senrath
2008-04-14, 08:04 PM
Except that legal responsibility is more nebulous. Unless the water is being wielded by something, ditto the positive energy, it's pretty much a natural death, because that's the natural state of the plane.

Mind, this has much greater consequences then a Wish or Miracle. Whoever lives on that plane is going to be /pissed/ with you for a while. Possibly forever.

No, the positive energy fails anyway. Sure, it's not a death effect, but it is an effect, which is prevented by the Tarrasque.

Jayabalard
2008-04-14, 08:07 PM
You die. You are not /slain/. Dying is natural. Slain is not. Death by drowning is natural.Bleeding to death is just as natural of a way to die.

Rutee
2008-04-14, 08:10 PM
No, the positive energy fails anyway. Sure, it's not a death effect, but it is an effect, which is prevented by the Tarrasque.

Where is Positive Energy explosion defined as an effect?

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:11 PM
No, the positive energy fails anyway. Sure, it's not a death effect, but it is an effect, which is prevented by the Tarrasque.

WAIT...if Positive Energy is an effect, then can a Warblade END the traits of that particular plane? /semi-sarcasm

holywhippet
2008-04-14, 08:18 PM
Just a thought, would the quivering palm ability of a monk be able to take a tarrasque down? It would need to be a monk that has been buffed like mad of course. The DC for quivering palm is 10 + 1/2 monk level + wisdom modifier. For a level 20 monk with a wisdom modifier of 5 thats only a DC of 25 and the tarrasque gets +38 to fortitude saves.

JaxGaret
2008-04-14, 08:18 PM
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that "slain" means only to be killed by external, violent means; it is much simpler to define it as "killed".

Jack_Simth
2008-04-14, 08:44 PM
Tarrasque comes back? Wow...it'd been almost a whole month since the same question was asked. Is that a record?

Okay, read the Terrasque description. It can ONLY be destroyed with Wish or Miracle. That's it. Sure, you could Melee it until it was unconscious if you had the right equipment, but without Wish or Miracle, it'll stand up and eat you.

The End.

Fun stuff....

The Terrasque's limitation that it can only be permanently deaded by a Wish or Miracle is part of it's Regeneration ability ... which is bypassed by suffocation, thirst, and starvation.

If you deal it enough damage that it'll stay unconscious long enough that, rolling 20's on all checks and 1's on all damage dice, it will lose out to starvation/thirst damage in excess of it's HP, it's not getting up again (well, until someone force-feeds it) - which is probably good enough. You just need to find a way to deal enough damage. Perhaps a shock trooper Leap Attack on Haste with the Spring Attack chain?

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-14, 08:47 PM
Just a thought, would the quivering palm ability of a monk be able to take a tarrasque down? It would need to be a monk that has been buffed like mad of course. The DC for quivering palm is 10 + 1/2 monk level + wisdom modifier. For a level 20 monk with a wisdom modifier of 5 thats only a DC of 25 and the tarrasque gets +38 to fortitude saves.

Even if it worked, it would only deal 868 points of nonlethal damage to him. Of course, basing your strategy on a move that the Tarrasque will probably resist, which you can only do once per week, and you still need the Wish or Miracle, is not a great plan.

holywhippet
2008-04-14, 08:54 PM
Yes, but if it worked then the tarrasque is down in one shot. You just need to damage it a bit further than hit it with a wish spell.

The thread is asking if the tarrasque can be killed with pure melee and that's what quivering palm does - kills. The fact that the tarrasque can return from the dead is a different matter.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 09:44 PM
The universe can't tell whether I tripped a terrasque into the ocean or whether it fell by itself. Seriously.The fundamental mechanics of D&D are inherently based on the notion that the universe can tell the difference between you tripping the Tarrasque into the ocean and it falling in by itself. If you trip the Tarrasque in, then you get XP for it, while if it falls in by itself, then you don't.

You're trying to claim responsibility for its death when it's convenient for you, but absolve yourself of responsibility when it's not. It doesn't work that way.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 09:57 PM
The fundamental mechanics of D&D are inherently based on the notion that the universe can tell the difference between you tripping the Tarrasque into the ocean and it falling in by itself. If you trip the Tarrasque in, then you get XP for it, while if it falls in by itself, then you don't.

You're trying to claim responsibility for its death when it's convenient for you, but absolve yourself of responsibility when it's not. It doesn't work that way.

I never claimed to get experience from Big T drowning itself.

Khanderas
2008-04-15, 02:03 AM
You die. You are not /slain/. Dying is natural. Slain is not. Death by drowning is natural.
Death from not having a head is also natural. Death by bleeding is also natural.
So.. yeah I don't agree with you here. Nothing differers technically/biologically from dying from natural causes (baaaad razorcut) or from being slain / murdered (somone else slices your jugular).

senrath
2008-04-15, 05:37 AM
Where is Positive Energy explosion defined as an effect?

Since we're getting extremely nitpicky at most points here:

Despite the beneficial effects of the plane, it is one of the most hostile of the Inner Planes.
:P

Ramos
2008-04-15, 06:27 AM
A vampire can drink its constitution to death. Big T is not immune to ability drain and the death on constitution 0 has no saving throw so the clause about "even if it fails a saving throw against a spell or effect that kills it" does not apply.

senrath
2008-04-15, 06:41 AM
A vampire can drink its constitution to death. Big T is not immune to ability drain and the death on constitution 0 has no saving throw so the clause about "even if it fails a saving throw against a spell or effect that kills it" does not apply.

But that comes back around to the "can only be slain by..." clause, since I'm pretty sure that would count as "slaying".

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 06:58 AM
But that comes back around to the "can only be slain by..." clause, since I'm pretty sure that would count as "slaying".But with 0 con his max HP is 0. The loses most actions, and fast healing won't fix that. Especially since his con is perpetually 0, he shouldn't even be able to get his HP up above -10, as the instant he does so, "death" kicks in again.

I still say a Crusader is your best bet, however. None of this rules-lawyering, he's just unconscious for eternity. :smallannoyed:

Solo
2008-04-15, 08:33 AM
Even if it worked, it would only deal 868 points of nonlethal damage to him. Of course, basing your strategy on a move that the Tarrasque will probably resist, which you can only do once per week, and you still need the Wish or Miracle, is not a great plan.

That and it hinges on a Monk...

AKA_Bait
2008-04-15, 08:56 AM
The universe can't tell whether I tripped a terrasque into the ocean or whether it fell by itself. Seriously. There is no meaningful way to enforce this kinda thing. Intent does not matter. Natural causes are natural causes. If an innocent bystander fails to help big T by refusing to say...give a hand to pull Big T out (yes I know it sounds ridiculous), does that count as the bystander trying to "slay" big T and hence big T will be immune?

Yeah, you are right, it was his own spleen. (http://http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1145#comic)

shadowdemon_lord
2008-04-15, 12:15 PM
Wow, this discussion has reached new depths of nitpickery, I stand in awe.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 12:26 PM
On a related note, you can totally bone the Big T by summoning Allips right? Dex-drain it into oblivion?

senrath
2008-04-15, 12:42 PM
On a related note, you can totally bone the Big T by summoning Allips right? Dex-drain it into oblivion?

Should work, since you're not actually killing it. Just sending into an eternal nightmare, provided you could keep its wisdom at 0. And dex draining would work, too.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-15, 01:40 PM
A vampire can drink its constitution to death. Big T is not immune to ability drain and the death on constitution 0 has no saving throw so the clause about "even if it fails a saving throw against a spell or effect that kills it" does not apply.
"Even" doesn't mean "only". It dosn't mean that effects that doesn't grant a saving throw will kill him.

Hmm... A Con 0 should kill anything... but is the Tarrask immune to all death effects? He would still be alive, but with HP zero all the time. Just hit him to reduce him to -10, and wish it into death.
The way his regeneration works, anything that "kills" him, will be down him for a few seconds... then he's back and kicking. Drowning him in the plane of water would keep him regenerating and re-dying pepertually.
People here is trying to find a loop-hole about non-magical death attacks killing him. "No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque." I could argue that death by blood loss, losing one's head, or drowning are considered attacks in the sense they reduce HP to less than zero. Sure, some will say that the wording doesn't says especifically that death from non-magical effects works, but I think that's the opinion of each DM and group.

As for the OP's original question: Uber chargers. Get 3 or 4, and go to town. There are tricks out there to deal around 250+ points of damage. Get 4 uber chargers and get up to 1000 points of damage in the first round. Then use a magic item to cast wish or miracle.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:47 PM
There are tricks to do tens of thousands of damages iirc. You only need one really. I do not know the tricks myself however. Please refer to the CharOp forums.

Rutee
2008-04-15, 01:52 PM
Guys, this is like Shiverring Touch paralyzing dragons. If the cause of death isn't ward-able with magic (Logically, to be fair, a Strong Positive plane doesn't count, for the same reason a STrong Negative one doesn't..)


Death from not having a head is also natural. Death by bleeding is also natural.
So.. yeah I don't agree with you here. Nothing differers technically/biologically from dying from natural causes (baaaad razorcut) or from being slain / murdered (somone else slices your jugular).

Perhaps, but there is in fact precedent for instant death effects (Which is not to be confused with Death Effects, the Game Term) which are considerred 'natural' to not be beatable by magic

See: Death by Old Age. Death by drowning.

Basically, you have to look at where the magic stops. Swords don't work because lethal damage is out, obviously, so no slashing or whacking. But drowning doesn't inflict HP damage, and it isn't a magical effect in any way. Since the Planar Shift's magic in no way /causes/ the drowning, the Tarrasque is not immune to it. If there were a spell that was a death effect that simulated drowning, that would still be subject to it, of course.


Despite the beneficial effects of the plane, it is one of the most hostile of the Inner Planes.
Ah, but it's not defined as an effect in the same sense (Unfortunately. I'll need to bap my friend the next time she points out that at least DnD's /editting/ is good..)

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 02:21 PM
Ah, but it's not defined as an effect in the same sense (Unfortunately. I'll need to bap my friend the next time she points out that at least DnD's /editting/ is good..)

None the less, it is an effect that you get a save to resist(Fort Save or explode). That means that the Tarrasque is immune to it, and thus warping it to the Positive Energy Plane means it becomes immortal to everything but drowning as it now has 868 Hp + Infinite Temp HP.

Drowning it would work though.

Blue Paladin
2008-04-15, 02:24 PM
Step 1. Get the tarrasque to charge you. It must use its bite attack on a charge, and can thus use Improved Grab. However it can't try to swallow you yet, so this is your chance.

Step 2. Make a Use Rope check to beat its Grapple of +81. I'm sure you can have a properly ridiculous check at level 20.

Congratulations, you've just hog-tied the Tarrasque! It will eventually starve/thirst to death. The above assumes you have at least Justiciar level 8.

[self-EDIT] Snap, I forgot about the size req on hog-tie. Okay, step 0: find some way to be size Gargantuan first. Hmm. But that negates the Tarrasque's Improved Grab ability. I guess you'll just have to start the grapple the old fashioned way...

JaxGaret
2008-04-15, 03:13 PM
Yeah, you are right, it was his own spleen. (http://http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1145#comic)

Broken link, heal thyself (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1145#comic)!

Chronos
2008-04-15, 03:23 PM
None the less, it is an effect that you get a save to resist(Fort Save or explode). That means that the Tarrasque is immune to it, and thus warping it to the Positive Energy Plane means it becomes immortal to everything but drowning as it now has 868 Hp + Infinite Temp HP.The Tarrasque is not immune to fort saves. Its fort bonus is insanely high, true, but it still fails on a natural 1. So a Tarrasque on the Positive Plane would gain 45 HP each round until it reached its normal maximum, then continue gaining 5 more per round until it reached double its normal maximum, then would start making Fort saves until it eventually failed one. When it fails, it explodes, an effect which would normally kill a creature, and which therefore deals a whole lot of subdual damage to it. It still has a ton of HP, more than its subdual damage, so the first explosion doesn't actually incapacitate it, but it's still got more than twice its normal HP, so it's still taking a Fort save every round. On average, it takes 868 subdual damage every 20 rounds.

Except, wait... It's still got the positive energy fast healing going on, so it's healing 45 subdual damage each round, so on average, even with it exploding every couple of minutes or so, it's still keeping ahead of the subdual damage... So rifting the Tarrasque to Positive wouldn't actually even incapacitate it, just make it angrier.

On the other hand, though, if a wizard were on the Positive Energy Plane watching it, he could ready an action to cast Wish as soon as it explodes. Right after an explosion (before its next turn when it regenerates some of it), the Tarrasque would still have nonlethal damage equal to its normal HP total plus 10, and would therefore be vulnerable to the Wish, even though it's still conscious.

Person_Man
2008-04-15, 03:44 PM
Here's another option: Be a Beast Heart Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4). You can use Monster Empathy to effect the attitudes of magical beasts of any Intelligence score. Tarrasque is a magical beast. If needed, mix in some Marshal and whatever else you need to get your check to the 35-60 range, so that you can move it to the Helpful category in one or two rounds.

Go conquer the world with your new ally. Just hope that you don't run into any other Beast Heart Adepts along the way.

senrath
2008-04-15, 03:47 PM
The Tarrasque is not immune to fort saves. Its fort bonus is insanely high, true, but it still fails on a natural 1. So a Tarrasque on the Positive Plane would gain 45 HP each round until it reached its normal maximum, then continue gaining 5 more per round until it reached double its normal maximum, then would start making Fort saves until it eventually failed one. When it fails, it explodes, an effect which would normally kill a creature, and which therefore deals a whole lot of subdual damage to it. It still has a ton of HP, more than its subdual damage, so the first explosion doesn't actually incapacitate it, but it's still got more than twice its normal HP, so it's still taking a Fort save every round. On average, it takes 868 subdual damage every 20 rounds.

Except, wait... It's still got the positive energy fast healing going on, so it's healing 45 subdual damage each round, so on average, even with it exploding every couple of minutes or so, it's still keeping ahead of the subdual damage... So rifting the Tarrasque to Positive wouldn't actually even incapacitate it, just make it angrier.

On the other hand, though, if a wizard were on the Positive Energy Plane watching it, he could ready an action to cast Wish as soon as it explodes. Right after an explosion (before its next turn when it regenerates some of it), the Tarrasque would still have nonlethal damage equal to its normal HP total plus 10, and would therefore be vulnerable to the Wish, even though it's still conscious.
That would be really amusing, though. A perpetually exploding and reforming Tarrasque.

Overlord
2008-04-15, 04:12 PM
Okay, a quick google search yielded the article I mentioned earlier: Seven Ways to Kill the Tarrasque (on Thirteen Experience Levels or Less). (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt)

It discusses the drowning and allip methods, which were previously mentioned. It's 3.0, but most of points still apply, if I remember correctly.

Also:


Regeneration (Ex)

No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

As Jack mentioned, drowning, starvation, and dehydration can all kill the tarrasque. Yes, yes, the entry for Regeneration says that the only way to slay the Tarrasque is by using Wish. However, the entire Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)ability (including the Wish clause) is completely ignored by things like starvation, suffocation, and dehydration.

Under the rules for suffocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#suffocation), the Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)has a very specific amount of time that he can survive underwater. The article describes this for the 3.0 rules, but I'll just go over them again for 3.5. He can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to twice his Con score (35). That's a total of 70 rounds that he can hold his breath. After that, he has to make Con checks every round, starting at DC 10, and increasing by 1 every round. Note that these are Con checks--the Tarrasque will still fail on a natural 20 when the DC gets too high. Since he has a +12 Con modifier, that magic DC number is 33. So that means you have to wait a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 23 rounds until he starts drowning and falls unconscious. Once he fails his check, it's just 3 more rounds and he's dead. Altogether, it will take a maximum of 70 + 23 + 3 = 96 rounds.

Of course, the real problem is making that he can't burrow out of (he doesn't have a burrow speed, but he can do a lot of damage with his claws), and that either has a roof he can't destroy or is so deep that he can't jump out of it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 04:15 PM
Quintessence. It ain't dead, but it ain't coming back.

Douglas
2008-04-15, 04:22 PM
As Jack mentioned, drowning, starvation, and dehydration can all kill the tarrasque. Yes, yes, the entry for Regeneration says that the only way to slay the Tarrasque is by using Wish. However, the entire Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)ability (including the Wish clause) is completely ignored by things like starvation, suffocation, and dehydration.
You need to read that entry more carefully. The actual quote is:

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
So, he's not going to be healing that damage at a super-fast rate automatically, but it doesn't get to bypass the entire ability. The Wish/Miracle clause still applies.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-15, 04:45 PM
As Jack mentioned, drowning, starvation, and dehydration can all kill the tarrasque. Yes, yes, the entry for Regeneration says that the only way to slay the Tarrasque is by using Wish. However, the entire Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)ability (including the Wish clause) is completely ignored by things like starvation, suffocation, and dehydration.

I did not say that they could kill the terrasque. I said that Mr. T wouldn't be getting up again, which was probably good enough.

See, Starvation and Thirst? They don't deal lethal damage. You never die from them anyway (technically).

Suffocation would normally kill - but it likewise does not deal lethal damage.... but it does set your real HP at a stage or two, which will technically apply to Mr. T. So he goes to actual negative HP, despite the regen, and has to start making stabilization checks just like everyone else. When he suffocates, though, all that happens is that he gets a boatload of nonlethal damage (which stacks with the real HP total of -1 from Suffocation)... but he's still dying. Theoretically, if you can time everything perfectly, you can have him run to -10 real hit points... by suffocating him to the -1 stage, removing the suffocation status (so that he doesn't keep getting reset to 0/-1) waiting until he stabilizes (or fails to stabilize and hits -10 real hit points), then reapplying suffocation until it triggers again.

But that's too complex. Deal enough damage that he can't feed or drink for long enough that he WILL have more nonlethal damage from starvation and thirst than he's got real hit points, and he's permanently unconscious. Then seal him up however you feel like. Wish or no, he's staying down until someone or something intervenes - which is good enough.

Overlord
2008-04-15, 06:52 PM
Right, I thought about that after I posted. I had considered losing all of your hit points +10 and dying to count as lethal damage, but that is just my interpretation.

However, if you do right, at worst you'll just have a pickled Tarrasque.