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purplearcanist
2008-04-14, 07:14 PM
How do you abuse alter self/polymorph/polymorph any object/shapechange?

Nemoricus
2008-04-14, 07:18 PM
Shapechange gives Supernatural abilities. Look up the barghest. Read the Feed ability description. That should explain how broken that spell is, as currently written.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm

Link to barghest.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

See the entries on Polymorph.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 07:24 PM
How do you abuse alter self/polymorph/polymorph any object/shapechange?

By casting it.

Solo
2008-04-14, 07:25 PM
How do you abuse polymorph?

Easily. :smallamused:

Signmaker
2008-04-14, 07:37 PM
"How do I burn things with fire?"

This is basically what your question equates to.

Think of all the creatures you've ever seen in a book, core or splat.
Think of all the abilities applicable through the spell.
Compare, optimize.
Abuse.

AslanCross
2008-04-14, 07:43 PM
One of the less broken ways to abuse Shapechange is to become a balor. Since the balor's vorpal sword is an (Su) ability, you automatically get one.

Depending on your DM, there's the Titan Gate chain, Tippy's "Gaterape" (ugh) trick, and a lot of other horrid, horrid things.

RTGoodman
2008-04-14, 08:05 PM
By casting it.

That was gonna be my answer.


Seriously, though, alter self can give you, depending on your type, obscene natural armor bonuses and flight, way before other spells can give you the same, or perhaps even more broken stuff.

Polymorph and the rest of the higher-level spells (and especially shapechange) give you access to even more and better abilities, all for the low, low price of... casting a spell.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-14, 08:09 PM
A sweet sack of valencia oranges... shows 'em who's boss and won't leave a mark...

Bonus points to anyone who actually gets the reference.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-14, 08:15 PM
PAO gives you mental stats, so try a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

For shapechange there almost isn't any way to use it that isn't broken. Try Zodar with a supernatural wish, or Golems for immunity to magic and Abbominations for ridiculous uberness or Sarruck to be Pun-Pun

Alter Self if you're an outsider becomes a whole lot easier, short of that you just have every movement type available or humoungous NA bonuses and physical stat bonuses. Oh, and more stealth than the rogue...

Polymorph is best served in Treant form in core if you want to go Gish, otherwise you want to look at forms that combine continued casting with alternate movement rates, boosts to stats, AC boosts, attack forms, in some cases extra actions, funky Ex attacks like web or whathaveyou, etc.....

this line of spells comes out of the box as borked as you could ever want. I ban them in every game and never use them if I'm playing a caster in someone elses game, they just make it no fun..:smallyuk:

Frosty
2008-04-14, 08:29 PM
PAO gives you mental stats, so try a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

For shapechange there almost isn't any way to use it that isn't broken. Try Zodar with a supernatural wish, or Golems for immunity to magic and Abbominations for ridiculous uberness or Sarruck to be Pun-Pun

Alter Self if you're an outsider becomes a whole lot easier, short of that you just have every movement type available or humoungous NA bonuses and physical stat bonuses. Oh, and more stealth than the rogue...

Polymorph is best served in Treant form in core if you want to go Gish, otherwise you want to look at forms that combine continued casting with alternate movement rates, boosts to stats, AC boosts, attack forms, in some cases extra actions, funky Ex attacks like web or whathaveyou, etc.....

this line of spells comes out of the box as borked as you could ever want. I ban them in every game and never use them if I'm playing a caster in someone elses game, they just make it no fun..:smallyuk:

Alter self is mostly fine IF not an outsider. I tend to ban polymorph though.

Chronos
2008-04-14, 09:50 PM
Alter self is mostly fine IF not an outsider. I tend to ban polymorph though.Eh, you can still get 6 natural armor from Troglodyte, or flight from Raptoran, or water breathing from Merfolk, even as a humanoid. And those are all at a lower level than the spells which are supposed to give you those things.

Frosty
2008-04-14, 09:55 PM
Eh, you can still get 6 natural armor from Troglodyte, or flight from Raptoran, or water breathing from Merfolk, even as a humanoid. And those are all at a lower level than the spells which are supposed to give you those things.

I'm ok with those things. Fly is overpriced anyways.

tyckspoon
2008-04-14, 09:56 PM
+8 Natural Armor if you can use the Tren (Serpent Kingdoms. You may also know Serpent Kingdoms from such movies as Pun-Pun Goes To Camp.) It's a Troglodyte on steroids, basically.

Moff Chumley
2008-04-14, 09:57 PM
One of the less broken ways to abuse Shapechange is to become a balor. Since the balor's vorpal sword is an (Su) ability, you automatically get one.

Depending on your DM, there's the Titan Gate chain, Tippy's "Gaterape" (ugh) trick, and a lot of other horrid, horrid things.

Is this the one involving epic magic destroying planets, or am I thinking of a different one? Someone should archive Tippy's... *sits and tries to think of appropriate word, I'll get back to you on this*

EvilElitest
2008-04-14, 09:59 PM
how do you not abuse polymorph. You just can't resist it, there isn't any groups to pervent you from doing it
from
EE

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:05 PM
how do you not abuse polymorph.

I use it to turn into...
A rat.
You know, for stealth.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 10:06 PM
Is this the one involving epic magic destroying planets, or am I thinking of a different one? Someone should archive Tippy's... *sits and tries to think of appropriate word, I'll get back to you on this*

Gaterape is when you gate in a creature and then Mind Rape it. Thats the bare bones, everything else is just stuff to get the creature gated in or back to you afterwards.

If you gaterape Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons then you get to mess around with epic magic. Once you get that its all over. You can give yourself the Ex ability to create a star at will as a standard action. Or an entire solar system if you are so inclined.

EvilElitest
2008-04-14, 10:07 PM
I use it to turn into...
A rat.
You know, for stealth.

we all ahve at some point or other

Really, polymorph basically is over poweredness
from
EE

Moff Chumley
2008-04-14, 10:22 PM
PAA: Polymorph abusers anonymous. Found yourself out twinking red mage? Reading to much Emperor Tippy*? Then the PAA is here for you!

*: Mentioning Tippy in posts about powergaming is nigh required.

obvious pun
2008-04-14, 10:27 PM
A sweet sack of valencia oranges... shows 'em who's boss and won't leave a mark...

Bonus points to anyone who actually gets the reference.

Wasn't that from that episode of Family Guy?

Back on topic...

Now this is just off the top of my head...

Alter Self: Swim Speed, Flight, Burrowing, Skill Bonuses, Natural Armor.
Polymorph: The above + Physical Stats, Extraordinary Abilities, Bigger list of things to change into.
Shape Change: The above + Bigger list of things to change into, Supernatural Abilities, able to change into a different creature during the spell.
Polymorph any object: Pebble to Solar/ Dragon/ Phoenix/ Golem/ Expendable Soldier/ etc, YOURSELF to Solar/ Dragon/ etc.

Edit: Ninja'd. Accursed slow posting.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:27 PM
PAA

Polymorph Any Attended-object?
Awesome!

Chronos
2008-04-14, 10:29 PM
I'm ok with those things. Fly is overpriced anyways.Even if each of those things individually is reasonable for second level, getting all of them (and other advantages, too, like great disguises) with a single spell is a bit much.

EvilElitest
2008-04-14, 10:30 PM
PAA: Polymorph abusers anonymous. Found yourself out twinking red mage? Reading to much Emperor Tippy*? Then the PAA is here for you!

*: Mentioning Tippy in posts about powergaming is nigh required.

I haev to come clean, i've been abusting polymorph for ages. It normally happens when i'm drunk, and have come home from a long day of work, but i then lash out at polly spells and horrible aburse them. I take advantage of their innate lack of protect against my powergaming might. It is simply sick what i make Polymorph do when i abuse it ,but by the end of the night nobody even takes it serously. It is ashamed and refuses to come out of the house.


Tippy, Logic Ninja, and Bears were teh axis of evil of power gaming. Tippy is the Stalin who still remains, might to hte end
from
EE

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:35 PM
Tippy, Logic Ninja, and Bears were teh axis of evil of power gaming. Tippy is the Stalin who still remains, might to hte end
from
EE

And that doesn't even acount for all the world leaders who supported them without technically gettign involved.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 10:43 PM
Tippy, Logic Ninja, and Bears were teh axis of evil of power gaming. Tippy is the Stalin who still remains, might to hte end
from
EE

TLN and Bears with Lasers were the same person. And he is still around with yet another account (his 4th I believe).

Fax, Karsh, Jack Manycoats, and a few others on these boards are all at my level in general optimizing skill. I can do wizards real well and the rest of it when I put my mind to it and get out my books.

---
And I don't really abuse Polymorph. The only one I ever bother with is Shapechange and unless I'm going for Zodar cheese I generally hang around as a Shadesteel Golem.

Collin152
2008-04-14, 10:45 PM
TLN and Bears with Lasers were the same person.

Yes, but then, so were George Washington and King George.

EvilElitest
2008-04-14, 11:01 PM
And that doesn't even acount for all the world leaders who supported them without technically gettign involved.

and avoided notice

you know who you are

you communists

TLN and Bears with Lasers were the same person. And he is still around with yet another account (his 4th I believe).


yeah, most likely, he is waiting to strike the moment we turn out back, ready to lash out and destroy us with his ability to understand the system.

I can't wait until 4E so i can see it get dismantled by you lot


Fax, Karsh, Jack Manycoats, and a few others on these boards are all at my level in general optimizing skill. I can do wizards real well and the rest of it when I put my mind to it and get out my books.


Don't be modest



And I don't really abuse Polymorph. The only one I ever bother with is Shapechange and unless I'm going for Zodar cheese I generally hang around as a Shadesteel Golem.
We all abuse polymorph. Even when we don't need to, we do it for the sheer thrill of it
from
EE

Ascension
2008-04-14, 11:07 PM
We all abuse polymorph. Even when we don't need to, we do it for the sheer thrill of it

I hear in the next edition it's going to try to get a restraining order against us.

It remains to be seen whether it will have any lasting effect or not.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 11:12 PM
and avoided notice

you know who you are

I'm sure they do.


yeah, most likely, he is waiting to strike the moment we turn out back, ready to lash out and destroy us with his ability to understand the system.

I can't wait until 4E so i can see it get dismantled by you lot
Meh. We'll see.


Don't be modest
I'm not. The people I named are good optimizers.


We all abuse polymorph. Even when we don't need to, we do it for the sheer thrill of it
from
EE
Honestly I really don't. Outside of a few specific tricks I generally just shift into a Shadesteel golem and stay there, perhaps changing to something with better movement speeds when needed.

The bookkeeping with the polymorph line is just to much work for me.

Talic
2008-04-15, 12:32 AM
How do you abuse alter self/polymorph/polymorph any object/shapechange?

Silly, silly people. You're all wrong.

You don't abuse polymorph spells...

Polymorph spells abuse the encounter. Heartily.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-15, 07:25 AM
Wasn't that from that episode of Family Guy?



Correct! Here's some bonus points!

GoC
2008-04-15, 08:24 AM
PAO gives you mental stats, so try a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

If your int isn't higher than the dragon's by the time you're level 26 then you're doing something wrong.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 08:38 AM
If your int isn't higher than the dragon's by the time you're level 26 then you're doing something wrong.

PAO is the first spell any Sorc that has access to this line of spells should know. Plus Wizards still benefit from all the other beanies of being a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (Sanz the Su but oh well, you can't have everything)

Edit: And if you start with a low rolled stat line and as a race without an Int bonus having an Int of less than 32 is entirely possible at level 15

+5 from Tomb,
+3 from Levels
+3 from Age if we're being generous
given a starting Int of 15 if we use the Elite array and not having anything cheesey, either because it's a new player or they don't have access to the splats, or the DM houserules it out...

Then we have a mage with an Int of 26. Not unplayable in any way.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 08:42 AM
You all do realize that PaO has a 15 HD limit, correct? No PaOing into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 08:49 AM
You all do realize that PaO has a 15 HD limit, correct? No PaOing into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

No I wasn't aware. It's not listed in my PHB (old copy of 3.5 where Shapechange had a 50HD limit so it's not always reliable). Hmmm. Well that sucks. Whats the creature with 15HD with the best Int mod then?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 08:52 AM
No I wasn't aware. It's not listed in my PHB (old copy of 3.5 where Shapechange had a 50HD limit so it's not always reliable). Hmmm. Well that sucks. Whats the creature with 15HD with the best Int mod then?

Yeah I have the fun PHB as well :D

According to the newest errata and the SRD PaO is reated like Polymorph except as noted below and Polymorph has a 15 HD limit which isn't changed in PaO's description.

Not sure for the Int score. I don't have a good filter for HD, only CR.

GoC
2008-04-15, 09:47 AM
Edit: And if you start with a low rolled stat line and as a race without an Int bonus having an Int of less than 32 is entirely possible at level 15
The great wyrm requires you to be a level 40 wizard!
Yes it is possible to have less than 32 Int at that level (16+5+8+2=31) but by then wizards are throwing planets at eachother and having battles with legions of Solars! The extra +1 is the equivalent of having an extra planetar for your epic spell.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 10:02 AM
Out of interest (I don't use them so I'm not great with Poly), wouldn't the Inherent bonuses from the Tombs and the Level boost bonuses be applied to the new form?

And if we're allowing PAO to go above the 15HD max that Tippy pointed out and are still interested in Great Wyrms then you can boost your Caster level to get there. Maybe not to 40 without resorting to Circle magic or wishing for high CL scrolls and then UMDing them but pretty damn high with a few splats worth of items, spells and PrCs

Gorbash
2008-04-15, 10:15 AM
Is there any way for polymorph to be used and NOT abused? In my gaming group we have a rule that you can polymorph ONLY into creatures that you saw. No knowledge checks, no scrying, no nothing, only stuff that you saw. And since in a normal campaign (in this case Savage Tide), you don't run into Zodars and Trens and all the hideously overpowered stuff, I see no reason why can't be just a spell that's used when you run out of other spells.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-15, 10:45 AM
Google "LoP's Dirty Tricks #1: Behold!"

The basic breakdown though is:

PsyWarrior 6 +17 Int

At level 4+ you either hire a mage or UMD a scroll of PaO.

PaO to Beholder form. As long as you have 17+ Int, you are permanently a beholder. At levels 5 and 6 you take the feat Metamorphic Transfer (one at 5th, one at 6th) and gain the Antimagic Cone and Eye Rays.

At 7th level you are qualified to take the Beholder Mage Prestige Class. You "put out" your "central antimagic eye", then take another level. At each level, you are effectively gaining 2 CL and you can cast 10 spells a round as free actions. At level 9 you can either take more BM levels, cerebremancer, or if you have the feats, take Ur-Priest for a level or two, then ride out 10 levels of Mystic Theurge and enjoy your 20/20 casting.

There is so much cheese with Shapechange that it is pointless to even try to list them all.

I like the idea of turning into a 12 headed Pyro/Cryo hydra personally though.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-15, 11:25 AM
Google "LoP's Dirty Tricks #1: Behold!"

The basic breakdown though is:

PsyWarrior 6 +17 Int

At level 4+ you either hire a mage or UMD a scroll of PaO.

PaO to Beholder form. As long as you have 17+ Int, you are permanently a beholder. At levels 5 and 6 you take the feat Metamorphic Transfer (one at 5th, one at 6th) and gain the Antimagic Cone and Eye Rays..

You may want to recast POA on yourself more than once so you can taske more than one (Greater) Dispel Magic: Permanently onlo lasts till dispelled. That way he has to cast 3 or more dispels: all while you are killing him.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-15, 11:55 AM
You may want to recast POA on yourself more than once so you can taske more than one (Greater) Dispel Magic: Permanently onlo lasts till dispelled. That way he has to cast 3 or more dispels: all while you are killing him.

Right; well in the thread various workarounds are listed. Most important though is that you just use a standard to ready to dispel each round and cast as free actions. You can also use rings of counter spelling.

Chronos
2008-04-15, 12:00 PM
Why PsiWar instead of Psion? They get bonus psionic feats, too, and the manifesting progression is better. They're also Int-based, to take advantage of that 17. And I presume that you need to be an Elan, to (arguably) get the "same class" modifier for PAO?


Right; well in the thread various workarounds are listed. Most important though is that you just use a standard to ready to dispel each round and cast as free actions. You can also use rings of counter spelling.And just hope that you don't run into a warlock with Devour Magic.

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-15, 12:09 PM
well, Baeful pollymorph is a good one, as a wizard use it on everything, or if your DM is nice use it on your self and keep your mental stats (not to hard a DC) and you get a good size modifier as a tiny/ diminutive creature. then cast it again on enemies to that you can have friends.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 06:00 PM
PAO gives you mental stats, so try a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.


Just intelligence, really.

And to bad theres a HD limit, or I'd have Vecna's intelligence all the time.

Draco Ignifer
2008-04-15, 06:32 PM
So, is it more or less broken than it used to be? In 3.0, Polymorph was an hour per level, with polymorph other as permanent, but you didn't get extraordinary abilities; Shapechange had zero limits besides "no gods or singular beings," but no supernatural abilities. Can't quite figure out which set is worse.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 07:07 PM
Here's a quick list of fun things to change into as a lvl 6 humaniod:

Alter Self Forms:
Mobile Combat: Troglodyte: claws (d4), bite (d4), +6 nat ac, move 30, +4 hide (+8 underground), Multiattack (A solid choice in general.)
Tank Combat: Crucian: +8 nat ac, move 20, Iron Will, Weapon focus Warhammer (Bonus points if a dwarf, and thus used to 20 movement.)
Run/Burrow: Asabi: bite (d4), +2 nat ac, move 50, burrow 20, Combat Reflexes, jump lengths increased (Great if you can use it as a monk in a footrace.)
Swim: Locathah: +3 nat ac, move 10, swim 60, +8 swim (take 10) (Breathe under water AND gain a swim speed. Score.)
Stealth/Mount: Goblin: small, +4 Move Silent, +4 Ride (skill bonuses and small size with 30ft movement.)
Acrobat: Lizardfolk: claws (d4), bite (d4), +5 nat ac, move 30, +4 balance, +4 jump, +4 swim (Not much different from a Trog, save for more skill bonuses.)

Using Alter Self as a Maneuver for a Mystic Swordsage is the most broken thing I have ever done in DnD, and the above list of the worst of that exploit. (Sure, I loved the numbers, but the important thing was being able to act like a creepy panwere lycanthrope-ish character in a Ravenloft game. :smallbiggrin: ) It's one thing to know how to make WMDs, it's another altogether to actually use them.