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Pirate_King
2008-04-14, 11:15 PM
Sometimes I feel as though I'm the only one who still uses the prestige classes in the DMG, but even I can't think of any reason to play an Archmage, not even for role-playing reasons. Is there any point at all?

Reel On, Love
2008-04-14, 11:17 PM
Sometimes I feel as though I'm the only one who still uses the prestige classes in the DMG, but even I can't think of any reason to play an Archmage, not even for role-playing reasons. Is there any point at all?

WTFmate? Archmage is a great and popular capstone for any wizard build, core or not.

Arcane Reach is worth it *just* for Irresistible Dance.
Spell Power is shiny.
SLA lets you, basically, turn a 5th level slot into a 9th level slot.

Keld Denar
2008-04-14, 11:18 PM
1: Master of Shaping
2: Spell Power (2-3 times!)
3: Reach Spell
4: Spell Like Ability (Teleport, Greater Teleport, or Timestop...)
5: Master of Counterspelling in VERY specific builds

6ish: The newish Master Specialist PrC from Complete Mage spoonfeeds you 2/3 required feats to qualify.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-14, 11:27 PM
1: Master of Shaping
2: Spell Power (2-3 times!)
Unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. It doesn't work.

3: Reach Spell
4: Spell Like Ability (Teleport, Greater Teleport, or Timestop...)
5: Master of Counterspelling in VERY specific builds
Master of Elements can be nice with a few builds.

To the OP: At least a bit of Archmage should be in most level 20 wizard builds.

Crow
2008-04-14, 11:32 PM
Shape spell is absolutely delicious. Mastery of Elements means you only ever need one type of orb spell. Arcane Reach is ok if you don't ever use your familiar to deliver touch spells.

Pirate_King
2008-04-14, 11:34 PM
I guess I still haven't completely worked out the spell caster's meta-game.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 12:00 AM
Shape spell is absolutely delicious. Mastery of Elements means you only ever need one type of orb spell. Arcane Reach is ok if you don't ever use your familiar to deliver touch spells.

The problem is how do you keep your familiar safe from the BBEG's full-attack when it is the BBEG's turn? I mean, it's not like my familiar can get feats like Spring Attack or Fly-by attack.

Crow
2008-04-15, 12:04 AM
I usually dump a displacement on him. I wish I could put mirror image on him or I'd do that for extra insurance.

Kantolin
2008-04-15, 12:08 AM
I wish I could put mirror image on him or I'd do that for extra insurance.

Wait, why can't you? Particularly with share spell?

Draz74
2008-04-15, 12:09 AM
I usually dump a displacement on him. I wish I could put mirror image on him or I'd do that for extra insurance.

Why can't you? Share Spells allows personal spells cast on familiars.

Crow
2008-04-15, 12:11 AM
Whoa, you're right. I always got hung up on the part where if they move 5 feet away, the spell ends. I never noticed that you can cast spells with a target of "You" as a touch spell on the familiar.

Thanks man!

Roland St. Jude
2008-04-15, 12:13 AM
Wait, why can't you? Particularly with share spell?

Shared spells with a duration other than instantaneous no longer affect the familiar if it travels more than 5 feet from the caster. (But yeah, you could cast it directly on the familiar.)

Frosty
2008-04-15, 12:15 AM
Mirror Image is great. The problem is when the BBEG has constant True Seeing doesn't care about Displacement or Mirror Image. Damned Balors...

Crow
2008-04-15, 12:18 AM
Mirror Image is great. The problem is when the BBEG has constant True Seeing doesn't care about Displacement or Mirror Image. Damned Balors...

Hey, I never said it was fool-proof. But dude, I'm a WIZARD. I ALWAYS know what I'll be going up against.

Animefunkmaster
2008-04-15, 12:18 AM
The problem is how do you keep your familiar safe from the BBEG's full-attack when it is the BBEG's turn? I mean, it's not like my familiar can get feats like Spring Attack or Fly-by attack.

I would like to add to the list of problems:


If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the "toucher." The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could.

Contact at the time is a big difference from 30 or 60ft. Forget protecting your familiar, you are still in danger in most situations.

Other PrCs that are widly used: Horizon walker (Dimension door all the way home), Eldritch Knight (Tops off every gish build), Mystic Theurge (Also to finish off those dual casting builds), Assassin... not sure why this is popular but it is.

Crow
2008-04-15, 12:21 AM
Contact at the time is a big difference from 30 or 60ft. Forget protecting your familiar, you are still in danger in most situations.

Yeah, but you just cast the spell and the familiar holds it. Then the familiar goes out and delivers the touch spell when their turn comes around.

The familiar has got to be one of the most under-used and under-appreciated class features in existence. I almost always pick a flying familiar for various reasons. They almost all go 60ft.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 12:25 AM
the familiar goes on your initative does it not? But anyhow the familiar cna easily move 70 feet. you can cast Expditious Retreat on it.

Chronos
2008-04-15, 01:04 AM
I mean, it's not like my familiar can get feats like Spring Attack or Fly-by attack.Heroics spell.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 01:05 AM
The familiar has got to be one of the most under-used and under-appreciated class features in existence.

Indeed it is. And using it for Touch spells is under using it. Remember that you can cast personal range spells on your familiar.

My Familiar uses are:

1) Imbue Familiar with spell ability. Familiars that cast spells give you more actions in combat. Familiar casts Greater invisibility or Displacement on you (shared back onto it) in the first round while you start casting on enemies. Makes all those 1 round/lvl defenses actually somewhat useful when they don't cost an action.

2) Passage of the Shifting sands cast on it. Decent scouting, decent defenses, an extra fort save or blind on your turn in addition to your casting.

3) You know all those new Polymorph subschool spells that are swift action cast but take away your casting and replace you completely with the monster in question? Yeah, those. Cast them on your familiar.

It's totally worth it to turn your Familiar into a Dragon only a couple CR under you as a swift action. Especially since he gains their BAB, Breath Weapon, and feats too. That's right, for one fight, at the cost of one spell, you can have a Pet better then a Druid animal companion.

Not to mention you can cast Wraithstrike for your Power attacking Dragon Familiar.

EDIT: Or he could be Beholder at level 15, with his own antimagic eye to focus around, and the eye attacks too.

Solo
2008-04-15, 01:08 AM
Unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. It doesn't work.


I'm fairly sure it was stated as stacking.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 01:15 AM
I'm fairly sure it was stated as stacking.

Not in the SRD. Maybe in the FAQ or Sage Advice.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:19 AM
I only know of Trollshape and Dragonshape. They're cool. But how do you turn your familiar into a Beholder? Which spell?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 01:27 AM
I only know of Trollshape and Dragonshape. They're cool. But how do you turn your familiar into a Beholder? Which spell?

Similar spell in Complete Mage, 8th level.

There's also one in the PHB II that turns you into a Chimera, but it's one of the worst of the shapes.

And Dragon shape has a lesser, normal, and greater version, all of which are relatively good, and all of which can be cast on your familiar.

Animefunkmaster
2008-04-15, 01:45 AM
Yeah, but you just cast the spell and the familiar holds it. Then the familiar goes out and delivers the touch spell when their turn comes around.

The familiar has got to be one of the most under-used and under-appreciated class features in existence. I almost always pick a flying familiar for various reasons.

I also, generally pick flying familiars for this reason. Most of them have a 40ft fly except for the hawk... IMO Raven is the best for the speaking. In any event the familiar does move on your turn, and it would take up it's whole turn to move and expend it's spell (So you would not be able to do this round after round).

Now forgetting how buff you could make your familiar, and how well you could make this work (as Wizards tend to excel at how awesome you could we do things), how much will you do this? Do you really want to spend feats and spell slots casting solely on your familiar, when those could easily be a host of better spells out there, or things like Arcane Thesis? Not to mention the warrior is dying for that buff you just gave your bird and a spell storing weapon is not THAT big of a deal. The familiar just isn't THAT good because it is a dumbed down version of you without your spells.

I tend to look into ways of buffing it up or swapping it out. There is a variant that gives it a breath weapon that has 2d6/class level reflex/half and a host of spells on the WoTC site you can get scrolls of to make them elementals or outsiders or undead, without feats.

Edit: I do see using a familiar in this manner as a good means to deliver touch spells before you have the reach, but I would prefer the reach. The Familiar can either aid another or flank for the rogue.

Crow
2008-04-15, 01:48 AM
Well, I use the familiar a lot. Mostly for delivering touch spells. It takes a long time to get up to where you're taking levels of Archmage (and I only use core), while your familiar is there almost from day 1.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-15, 01:49 AM
I haven't played as a Wzard yet, but I probably wouldn't bother with Archmage due to not seeing the bonuses as being worth the prequisites (and I don't like the idea of spending spell slots on High Arcana abilities). I like the sound of the Fatespinner PrC, though (I know from Crystal Keep that it isn;t too hard to qualify for, and the bonuses sound really good).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 01:57 AM
Now forgetting how buff you could make your familiar, and how well you could make this work (as Wizards tend to excel at how awesome you could we do things),

Ah the age old, "But Wizard's are all theoretical and not practical!" fallacy that has been disproved with concrete examples again and again.


how much will you do this? Do you really want to spend feats and spell slots casting solely on your familiar, when those could easily be a host of better spells out there, or things like Arcane Thesis?

Well since no one is advocating wasting feats on your familiar, and the spells that have been recommended are some of the best spells out there. And actions are the economy of D&D because after 7th level Wizard's don't run out of spells. Yes, I am willing to spend a single spell to double my actions per round.


Not to mention the warrior is dying for that buff you just gave your bird and a spell storing weapon is not THAT big of a deal. The familiar just isn't THAT good because it is a dumbed down version of you without your spells.

Oh, the Warrior is dieing for buff that:

1) Cannot be cast on him because it has a range of personal.

and

2) Would make him worse (okay leave him the sameish) because it would completely remove all his magic items, feats, stats, BAB, HP, saves, and well, everything that makes him him and not your familiar.

Maybe you should look up the buffs before you comment on them in the future.

Gorbash
2008-04-15, 03:35 AM
I'm fairly sure it was stated as stacking.

The High Arcana powers that can be taken multiple times and have a benefit of being selected more than once say so in their description.

Spell Power has no such text and the effects would not stack even if it could be taken more than once.

Quote by Lord_Silvanos.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-15, 03:47 AM
Oh, the Warrior is dieing for buff that:

1) Cannot be cast on him because it has a range of personal.

and

2) Would make him worse (okay leave him the sameish) because it would completely remove all his magic items, feats, stats, BAB, HP, saves, and well, everything that makes him him and not your familiar.

Maybe you should look up the buffs before you comment on them in the future.

No, he's dieing for that buff that would be in the same spell slot if you weren't wasting spells on buffing your familiar. There are some spells that are golden when shared with a familiar in the right circumstances, but straight up buffing your familiar is a waste of time and spell slots. The familiar is most valuable when being used to increase the number of spells you can cast in a round. Most ways I have seen to do this don't involve casting spells on your familiar during combat to do it.

But if you want to gimp yourself by trying to turn your familiar into a combat monster, I don't see any reason not to. Spellcasters really ought to gimp themselves, to make up for playing an overpowered class to start with.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-15, 04:37 AM
No, he's dieing for that buff that would be in the same spell slot if you weren't wasting spells on buffing your familiar. There are some spells that are golden when shared with a familiar in the right circumstances, but straight up buffing your familiar is a waste of time and spell slots. The familiar is most valuable when being used to increase the number of spells you can cast in a round. Most ways I have seen to do this don't involve casting spells on your familiar during combat to do it.

But if you want to gimp yourself by trying to turn your familiar into a combat monster, I don't see any reason not to. Spellcasters really ought to gimp themselves, to make up for playing an overpowered class to start with.

Okay, look, the 5th-level Complete Mage polymorph spell gives a Chimera's form.
If you cast that as a swift action and Bite of the Weretiger as a standard action, you suddenly get a familiar with an STR of 32 and five natural attacks (+18/+18/+18/+16/+16, for 2d6+11/1d8+11/1d8+11/1d6+5/1d6+5). That is pretty damn good for 11th level. Suddenly, the party has another tank.
This familiar also has all the buffs you shared with him... like, say, Mirror Image... if you stick close. Or, hey, maybe you cast Greater Invisibility to keep yourself safe at the start of the fight, and shared it with your familiar? Well, now it's still invisible, and has that attack routine.

Most importantly, this comes out of nowhere. There is no way to predict it. The wizard's pet rat suddenly crawls out of his Familiar Pocket and starts savaging you. The wizard casts as a swift and standard and then his familiar attacks.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-15, 05:11 AM
Two spells to make another fighter, or two spells to just end the fight. I'd take the latter, and it is certainly what I would prepare.

You are talking about quickening a 5th level spell. Are you seriously suggesting that is your best option for a ninth level spell? I don't own Complete Mage, but I am assuming a spell that turns you into a Chimera isn't a swift action on its own.

Although I would still want to do that at least once, just for the coolness factor. I won't deny that having a Chimera leap out of your pocket and savage your enemies is awesome. The most effective thing to do at that level, no. Awesome, yes.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-15, 05:13 AM
Two spells to make another fighter, or two spells to just end the fight. I'd take the latter, and it is certainly what I would prepare.
To make another fighter, who contributes for rounds. And whom you can ride, too. You can't necessarily end the fight with those slots. And, heck, the Bite can even be a scroll.


You are talking about quickening a 5th level spell. Are you seriously suggesting that is your best option for a ninth level spell? I don't own Complete Mage, but I am assuming a spell that turns you into a Chimera isn't a swift action on its own.

Although I would still want to do that at least once, just for the coolness factor. I won't deny that having a Chimera leap out of your pocket and savage your enemies is awesome. The most effective thing to do at that level, no. Awesome, yes.
All the Complete Mage (and PHBII) new-Polymorph-subtype spells are swift actions to cast, because you lose all your abilities. You basically become the monster.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-15, 05:17 AM
OK, that is much more reasonable as a strategy then. That is worth doing for reasons other than the cool factor if it only takes up 5th level spell slots.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 06:19 AM
OK, that is much more reasonable as a strategy then. That is worth doing for reasons other than the cool factor if it only takes up 5th level spell slots.

Exactly. Thanks for assuming I had no idea what I was talking about. But the point is, up that to a 6th level spell using Dragonshape (far, far more then 1 spell level superior to Form of the Threefold Beast) Now your familiar gains 60 Temp HP, a 6d10 Breath weapon, And a claw/claw/wing/wing/Bite/Tail Slap routine at a pretty good to hit and the power attack feat. You do this as a swift action, and still cast Evard's Black Tentacles, or Spirit Wall, or whatever.

and what buff could you cast on the fighter that's actually worth a 6th level slot? Unless it doubles his actions per round it's not worth it.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 07:28 AM
The high Arcana an archmage can sling around is some of the most powerful PrC stuff there is...

getting a spell slot turned into two SLAs for the price of a 5th level slot when you're high level is awesome to the Nth degree, if you like Gate/Shapechange or whatever you can have two of them. with no chance of ever getting seperated from them.

Arcane Reach is amazing when it's combined with Buffs, not just touch attacks. try it with a rod of chain and an Incantatrix in your party. Wooooo!

Spell Power is a nice boost if you like your Save-or-X since it stacks with everything else and all it costs is a low level slot (low level by the time you get access to it anyway)

Counterspelling is the capstone of any counterspelling focussed character, only for some builds it's true but very effective when done right, not overpowered but fun.

Elements is, as has been mentioned, great when you start playing with the Orb line although the price of an 8th level slot is waaay too high.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-15, 07:31 AM
Okay thanks (I didn't think any of the abilities were really that good, especially with the prequisites).

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 07:34 AM
The prereqs do indeed stink. But you can pick up the spell focuses when you're low level and that extra +1 actual might affect something, usually I take Necromancy and Enchantment. The Spellcraft Check can be usefull if your DM trows a lot of weird magic at you or enforces the checks on learning new spells from foreign books. And remember that you're a wizard anyway so it shouldn't be that onerous an investment.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 07:37 AM
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5/PrC 2. Heck, even replace that PrC with Wizard levels. Simple, but effective. if you play a Conjurer or an Abjurer this is one of the easiest and more effective non-cheesy builds out there. It only costs 2 feats to get into, and gives you Greater Spell Focus and the High Arcana, which are better than feats in every way.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 07:47 AM
Elements is, as has been mentioned, great when you start playing with the Orb line although the price of an 8th level slot is waaay too high.

Yeah, but if you start playing around with metamagic its worth it for the switch to sonic.

Grab Energy Substitution (Cold), Energy Admixture (Cold), Invisible Spell, Maximize spell, and Arcane Thesis: Orb of Fire.

It takes an 8th level spell slot and deals 180 No Save, No SR damage plus a fort save or be dazed. Mastery of Elements it and you can beat any resistance/immunity.

Thats over half a Solars HP. Throw in a Greater Rod of Quicken and you can 1 round anything with less than 360 HP.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 07:59 AM
Not arguing that it isn't fun or effective just that it isn't really that amazing if it isn't combined with some non-core stuff, which some DMs don't allow on the basis of the Orb line being overpowered. All in all I think I'd rather take the extra 8th level slot and just mem a slightly lower damage die Orb instead, it's not like direct damage is what most of my mages focus on anyway.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 08:29 AM
Not arguing that it isn't fun or effective just that it isn't really that amazing if it isn't combined with some non-core stuff, which some DMs don't allow on the basis of the Orb line being overpowered. All in all I think I'd rather take the extra 8th level slot and just mem a slightly lower damage die Orb instead, it's not like direct damage is what most of my mages focus on anyway.

..Some people think the Orb line is overpowered? My god it just makes blasting usable instead of a complete waste (if you metamagic it properly).

Mastery of Elements doesn't affect the damage die. Why its so good is for on the fly energy resistance/immunity avoidance.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 08:36 AM
..Some people think the Orb line is overpowered? My god it just makes blasting usable instead of a complete waste (if you metamagic it properly).

Mastery of Elements doesn't affect the damage die. Why its so good is for on the fly energy resistance/immunity avoidance.

It almost pulls blasting up to a wizard standard of usable. That right there means it completely outclasses any melee-based class at the only thing they were still in anyway useful for which is to deliver large amounts of hp damage as a cou de gra after a mage shuts the enemy down.

Mastery of Elements means you can pick one of the Orb line that deals a large damage dice per caster level and turn it into whatever type you want.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 08:50 AM
It almost pulls blasting up to a wizard standard of usable. That right there means it completely outclasses any melee-based class at the only thing they were still in anyway useful for which is to deliver large amounts of hp damage as a cou de gra after a mage shuts the enemy down.
160 damage out of an 8th level slot for a level 16 Wizard is respectable but the fighter should be turning out at least as much on a full attack. And he can keep it up a lot longer. The wizard just has the benefit of being able to snipe and go after Touch AC and he can Nova to deal with that Very Old Gold dragon in 1 round (Orb, Quickened Orb, Belt of Battle, Orb) does 540 damage. Or enough to deal with a single overpowering challenge per day.


Mastery of Elements means you can pick one of the Orb line that deals a large damage dice per caster level and turn it into whatever type you want.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 08:54 AM
The wizard just has the benefit of being able to snipe and go after Touch AC and he can Nova to deal with that Very Old Gold dragon in 1 round (Orb, Quickened Orb, Belt of Battle, Orb) does 540 damage.

Just?:smallconfused: Add in your Negative levels, your secondary Status effects and target with an energy type thats rarely resisted. There's no way a fighter can keep up with this short of a Chargehappy full attack with pounce. And there's any number of ways to keep that off. Like I said this Arcana combined with Orbs (and meta) puts blasting back in play at wizard level. Bleh.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 09:08 AM
Just?:smallconfused: Add in your Negative levels, your secondary Status effects and target with an energy type thats rarely resisted. There's no way a fighter can keep up with this short of a Chargehappy full attack with pounce. And there's any number of ways to keep that off. Like I said this Arcana combined with Orbs (and meta) puts blasting back in play at wizard level. Bleh.

You can't add Fell Drainging for the negative level fun, its +2 meta and the only metareducer you have is Arcane Thesis for it becoming +1. Unless you can find another +0 metamagic to add. Secondary status effects are Fort save or Dazed for a round.

And to do all of that the wizard blew all his highest level spells. A non blaster wizard just does Greater Dispel Magic + Quickened Arcane reached Irresistable Dance. 1 8th level and 1 6th level for the same end effect.

Or, gods help us, he brings in a Shivering Touch.

The Orb line with metamagic is viable for high level play and can hold its own. But its on par with ToB.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-15, 09:11 AM
Fair enough. I'll test it out again and see how I go. Thank you.:smallsmile:

Edit: Bare in mind that if I make Huw cry cause the Dwarven Barb/Fighter/whatever that he always builds is rendered pointless I'm gonna blame you...

Frosty
2008-04-15, 09:45 AM
Is Lesser Dragonshape in PHB2 as well? Regular Dragonshape is already level 9 spell, so I dunno what Greater Dragonshape would be.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 10:50 AM
Is Lesser Dragonshape in PHB2 as well? Regular Dragonshape is already level 9 spell, so I dunno what Greater Dragonshape would be.

There are Dragonshapes in Dragon Magic or the Spell compendium. There's a 4th level spell that turns you into a Draconnexx or something like that, useful but not too powerful. A 6th level one that turns you into an Adult Red Dragon (or maybe older.) And a 9th level one that turns you into an Ancient Red Dragon.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 10:53 AM
I'm pretty sure the 9th level one just turns you into a Mature Adult Red Dragon. At least the one in the PHB2 says so.

theterran
2008-04-15, 10:57 AM
Lesser Dragonshape turns you into a Young Adult Red Dragon

((that's the 6th level one))

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 11:05 AM
Thank you both, my very good memory doesn't extend to the Monster Manuals, so even though I can tell you that the 8th level Dragon had a 6d10 Breath weapon and a Str score of 24-25, I can't tell you what Dragon that is.