dmm: persist or quicken

[riddles]

i've seen both argued as being broken - but which is more so, and more useful? and why?

[Jasdoif]

Persistent Spell, easily.

Look at it this way. A nice self-only spell like divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm), which normally lasts for one round per caster level. It's a fourth level spell, so you get that at...caster level 7. So it normally lasts 7 rounds per casting.

As a persistent spell it lasts for 24 hours. Or 14,400 rounds. So, if you can DMM: Persist it that early, you're spenting six uses of turn undead to save yourself the equivalent of over 2000 actions and over 2000 spell slots you'd need to normally keep the spell running a full day.

[riddles]

but is ruined one one well placed dispel magic. to combat that you have to spend gold and a ring slot on a counterspelling ring, whereas with quicken you are more reactive.

[Reel On, Love]

DMM(Quicken) is more broadly applicable--it's not limited to buffs. You can use it to churn out two spells a round in important combats. Persist is probably more powerful, though, especially with all the ways the cleric can boost his caster level and guard against dispelling.

[Kizara]

I personally prefer quicken, since I can chose other domains (not planning and undeath) that do more for me/suit my characer concept (war, strength, magic, travel, etc).

Also, it is much more versitile and takes alot less turn attempts. With a single Extra Turning feat and a 20 charisma, you can Quicken 3 spells/day. I personally find that this is sufficient, spending my other swift actions on Blade of Blood.

What if you need to Quicken Cure Serious Wounds? Persisted Divine Favor isn't going to help you.

What if you Quicken Freedom of Movement? Persisted Divine Power isn't going to help you (although you casted Quickened Divine Power last round).


That all being said, Persist cheese with the right domains and nightstick abuse is certinally very sick. I prefer a more versitile build though.

[Tokiko Mima]

but is ruined one one well placed dispel magic. to combat that you have to spend gold and a ring slot on a counterspelling ring, whereas with quicken you are more reactive.

Dispel Magic isn't so hard to foil if you raise your caster level a little bit. Greater Dispel is tougher to work around, though. Because there are so many different dispel spells (Slashing dispel, Chain dispel, etc.) you'd probably be better served by a Ring of Spellbattle and a reasonable Spellcraft skill.

[Valairn]

Persistent Spell, easily.

Look at it this way. A nice self-only spell like divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm), which normally lasts for one round per caster level. It's a fourth level spell, so you get that at...caster level 7. So it normally lasts 7 rounds per casting.

As a persistent spell it lasts for 24 hours. Or 14,400 rounds. So, if you can DMM: Persist it that early, you're spenting six uses of turn undead to save yourself the equivalent of over 2000 actions and over 2000 spell slots you'd need to normally keep the spell running a full day.

Actually that's really not broken. Since most clerics will only be able to DMM:Persist one spell per day, unless you allow Nightstick cheesing.

[Squash Monster]

Off topic: people need to stop confusing "broken" with "unbalanced". DMM: Persist is horribly unbalanced, but broken is something completely different. Broken is when the game stops working, unbalanced is when one character is flat-out better than others. DMM: Persist doesn't get broken until you apply dozens of night sticks or use the Dark Chaos Shuffle to turn legacy weapon feats into Extra Turning.


On topic: quicken. Less vulnerability to dispel, better able to choose the correct buff at the correct time, capable of being used for non-buff spells. The key here is that you don't need either DMM to be Clericzilla. In most fights you can afford to spend the first round buffing. With Quicken, you still do this, but when a fight comes up where you really need to be in the fray right away, you're ready for it. However, you really need at least 10 turning attempts per day for Quicken to be worth it. If you can get 7 easily but not 10, I'd go with Persist.

[riddles]

that's the most balanced pov i've seen in a while. kudos.

there's also the fact that persist uses an extra feat for a usually feat starved class (assuming no FR domains)

[Jasdoif]

I'm very behind on books these days, so could someone tell me if there are standard metamagic rods of persist? Because there are certainly metamagic rods of quicken, if you'd like have both options available.


In most fights you can afford to spend the first round buffing. With Quicken, you still do this, but when a fight comes up where you really need to be in the fray right away, you're ready for it.And with Persist you can still do this as well. There's a lot more then one self-only buff you can cast, after all, and the more the merrier.

[riddles]

true.

persitent divine favour + DMM: persist divine power + persistent less vigour (not the best use of level 7 spells, but certainly handy)

[CthulhuM]

I'm very behind on books these days, so could someone tell me if there are standard metamagic rods of persist? Because there are certainly metamagic rods of quicken, if you'd like have both options available.

No, and I'm not even sure what they would cost. The pricing on metamagic rods doesn't seem to follow any formula - it goes up more or less exponentially with the level increase of the metamagic feat. It's safe to say persistent would be ridiculously expensive - probably 150k or more for a 4-6 level one.

And in any event, I'd agree that you're probably better off with quicken. Being a battle cleric is all well and good, but if you want to melee that badly I'd just save yourself some effort and play a ToB class. Use your cleric for what casters are actually good at - batman utility and save or dies.

[Squash Monster]

And with Persist you can still do this as well. There's a lot more then one self-only buff you can cast, after all, and the more the merrier.Oh, definitely. I should have explained my reason for mentioning this better.

The only reason Persist could be considered better than Quicken is that it takes less turning attempts per battle to fuel it. Assuming you follow the recommended 5 battles per day, Quicken takes 25 turn attempts to do what Persist does in 7. The reason this is okay is what I mentioned: that you can usually afford to spend that one round buffing.

Additionally, if you're in a fight where you want to be in the fray quickly and you want two buffs, Quicken is capable of handling it. Mind you, Persist is too if you get up to 14 turns per day.

Personally, I would probably choose based on how well my turns per day are divisible by 5 or 7. If you actually managed 35 turns per day, I'd go ahead and use Quicken, though.


And in any event, I'd agree that you're probably better off with quicken. Being a battle cleric is all well and good, but if you want to melee that badly I'd just save yourself some effort and play a ToB class. Use your cleric for what casters are actually good at - batman utility and save or dies.Buffs are what Clerics are good at. Being a buffmonster is a perfectly acceptable option for a Cleric. Additionally, if you face intelligently played spell-casting foes, Clerics are the most viable melee class. I love ToB, but when Black Tentacles and Solid Fogs start getting thrown around, the guy who can cast Freedom of Movement is the better fighter.

[Squash Monster]

On the topic of metamagic rods of Persist:

None are standard, and there's no apparent pattern in the prices of metamagic rods that you could guess the price of one with. This has always bugged me, so I'm going to find the closest matches I can on an integer sequence database.

Lesser rods cost 3000, 9000, 14000, and 35000.
Closest sequence: 2, 9, 14, 35, 57, 127, 205, 420, 680
This would make lesser persistent rods cost 127,000gp
http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A024472

Normal rods cost 11000, 32500, 54000, and 75500.
Closest sequence: nothing found (http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=11+32+54+75&sort=0&fmt=0&language=english&go=Search)

Greater rods cost 24500, 73000, 121500, and 170000.
Closest sequence: nothing found (http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=24+73+121+170&sort=0&fmt=0&language=english&go=Search)

Well, that obviously didn't work. Maybe one of you will find a use for what little is there.