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Talya
2008-04-15, 08:58 AM
My character is 2 bard, 6 sorcerer, 7 heartwarder (13th level sorcerer spellcasting) at present. The bard levels were for RP flavor and prc qualification. The character's more effective than she sounds. Sure, she's only got level 6 spells at 15, but her charisma is now 31 (and climbing. Will be 34 at level 20 with 9th level spells--all that while she has the Leadership feat as well.) But I hit maximum heartwarder level at character level 18.

Anybody know of any other PrCs I could use that would continue to boost my sorcerer level (at full, for 2 levels anyway. Can't sacrifice another sorcerer level), and also boost my level 2 bardic casting up a couple levels? Otherwise I go back to sorcerer for my last two levels, which is a class without benefits other than spellcasting, really.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 09:03 AM
Don't go back to Sorcerer, no matter what. I don't think there's another Theurge class for this, but Fatespinner requires 5 skill points to enter. There's not any easier PrC's than that.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 09:12 AM
If you can meet the requirements Archmage is good, its one of the better sorcerer prestige classes.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 09:17 AM
Some of the Bard PrCs might have +1 level of arcane spellcasting. Those still wouldn't advance Bardic spellcasting, but would at least give you more skill points.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-15, 09:17 AM
Use the retraining option from PHB2 to replace the bard levels by sorcerer, and then take a different prestige class.

There are no "two spontaneous arcane" prestige classes to my knowledge, and it'd take a lot of tweaking to actually qualify for Mystic Theurge (maybe divine bard?) or Ultimate Magus (arcane preparation? if your DM lets you).

Talya
2008-04-15, 09:19 AM
or Ultimate Magus (arcane preparation? if your DM lets you).

I'd thought of that, but Ultimate Magus would lose a level of sorcerer right off the bat.

Burley
2008-04-15, 09:39 AM
Well...the bard DOES have divine spells, though they are cast as an arcane caster... Depending on how well you can Bluff your DM, you might be able to get into Mystic Theurge, under the stipulation that they cast Cure X spells.

Isn't there an alternate Bard thing in some book that makes the bard divine? You could retrain into that...if it exists...

Talya
2008-04-15, 09:39 AM
Don't go back to Sorcerer, no matter what. I don't think there's another Theurge class for this, but Fatespinner requires 5 skill points to enter. There's not any easier PrC's than that.

Fatespinner doesn't really fit her style, and I doubt I'd use its special abilities often.

Talya
2008-04-15, 09:53 AM
Isn't there an alternate Bard thing in some book that makes the bard divine? You could retrain into that...if it exists...

With a wisdom of 10, that'd be a bad idea. ;)

Artanis
2008-04-15, 11:16 AM
Fatespinner doesn't really fit her style, and I doubt I'd use its special abilities often.
*shrug* You can always reflavor it. If you don't want to, you don't want to though, I'm just sayin', is all.

As for its abilities, using its abilities even once would make it better than more levels of Sorcerer.

Talya
2008-04-15, 11:52 AM
As for its abilities, using its abilities even once would make it better than more levels of Sorcerer.

Incantatrix would probably be the best PrC for me to go into, if I can't advance both. All I'd need to do to qualify is to take Iron Will at level 18. (and i'd get that feat back with my first level of Incantatrix, where they get a bonus Metamagic.) I'd ban Necromancy as a prohibited school (from which I've taken no spells, anyway), and gain cooperative metamagic at 20.

Chronos
2008-04-15, 12:03 PM
Well...the bard DOES have divine spells, though they are cast as an arcane caster... Depending on how well you can Bluff your DM, you might be able to get into Mystic Theurge, under the stipulation that they cast Cure X spells.No, the bard has arcane spells, which happen to include Cure X Wounds. You might as well argue that the wizard gets divine spells, since they can cast Dispel Magic (which is also on most of the divine lists).

SCPRedMage
2008-04-15, 12:05 PM
Well...the bard DOES have divine spells, though they are cast as an arcane caster... Depending on how well you can Bluff your DM, you might be able to get into Mystic Theurge, under the stipulation that they cast Cure X spells.

Isn't there an alternate Bard thing in some book that makes the bard divine? You could retrain into that...if it exists...
Umm... convincing your DM to count a standard Bard as a divine caster would be blatant cheating...

The alternate feature you're thinking of is from Unearthed Arcana. It wouldn't be good for this particular character, though, seeing as it makes Wisdom the casting stat...

Trouvere
2008-04-15, 01:49 PM
What an interesting PrC Heartwarder is. I can't help with the OP query, but gee, there must be a lot of interesting Heartwarder builds.

It seems a shame to have a Cha in the upper 30s and not put it to fullest use. Perhaps something like Bard 1 / Sorcerer 6 (or Sorcerer 4 / PrC 2 or whatever) / XX 2 / Heartwarder 1 / Sublime Chord 1 or 2 / Heartwarder +8 or +9 (depending on whether you want the SC 2 ability or the Heartwarder capstone), where XX is either Paladin (of Freedom) for Cha to all saves or (since we're using 3.0 material, and it shares several prerequisite feats with Heartwarder) Arcane Duelist for Cha to AC. If the former, take Force of Personality for a Will save in excess of +40. If the latter, perhaps Snowflake Wardance.

Talya
2008-04-15, 02:10 PM
It seems a shame to have a Cha in the upper 30s and not put it to fullest use. Perhaps something like Bard 1 / Sorcerer 6 (or Sorcerer 4 / PrC 2 or whatever) / XX 2 / Heartwarder 1 / Sublime Chord 1 or 2 / Heartwarder +8 or +9 (depending on whether you want the SC 2 ability or the Heartwarder capstone), where XX is either Paladin (of Freedom) for Cha to all saves or (since we're using 3.0 material, and it shares several prerequisite feats with Heartwarder) Arcane Duelist for Cha to AC. If the former, take Force of Personality for a Will save in excess of +40. If the latter, perhaps Snowflake Wardance.

If you like that, check out the "Vow of Nudity" link in my sig.

(and my DM disallowed the "Force of Personality" feat in his game. Specifically because with a wisdom of 10 I already had the highest will save in the party....and with Ruin Delver's Fortune as one of my spells, can pretty much apply charisma to any save as an immediate action whenever I want anyway, so I wouldn't bother wasting a feat on it.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-15, 10:15 PM
Abjurant Champion.

It requires one feat, Combat Casting, you're already proficent in at least one melee weapon by virtue of Bard levels. In exchange, you can drop a Shield spell as a swift action, and get a +2 bonus on the shield bonus it grants. Oh, and you get free Extend on all your Abjuration spells. And the D10 HD and full BAB doesn't hurt either.

Talya
2008-04-15, 10:24 PM
Ah...I don't have a shield spell. Does it give it to me?

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 10:36 PM
Archmage is your best bet, really.

Unless you wanna do Ultimate Magus with Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) and Arcane Preparation(Sorcerer). Then you advance both, but for little benefit.

Talya
2008-04-15, 10:40 PM
Archmage is your best bet, really.

Unless you wanna do Ultimate Magus with Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) and Arcane Preparation(Sorcerer). Then you advance both, but for little benefit.


I can't qualify for archmage. 1 feat left to take at 18. I have only one spell focus, and no skill focus (spellcraft).

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 10:41 PM
The only thing I can say is Retraining(PHBII) and pick up Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) and Arcane Preparation(Sorcerer).

Kizara
2008-04-16, 02:17 AM
Is your campaign going to hit epics? Cause if so you need to start caring about getting yourself 9th-level casting and 20 ranks in knowledge arcane, religion and nature DANG fast...

Reinboom
2008-04-16, 03:48 AM
For a no loss prestige class that you already qualify for (except, perhaps the fluff thing), you could go Ruathar..
It's a free reflex save bonus, skill points, and a larger hit die (at worst).

Or you could hit another bard prestige class and just have it advance in sorcerer for the spellcasting increase. Few specifically say to be 'bard only'.

If you have the setup from your bard skills at all done, you might be able to hit Unseen Seer, which wouldn't lose much.

You could also dip in to paragnostic initiate without losing much of anything (if you have the skill points set up right).


Are you able to use the dragon magazines?

Talya
2008-04-16, 06:11 AM
Is your campaign going to hit epics? Cause if so you need to start caring about getting yourself 9th-level casting and 20 ranks in knowledge arcane, religion and nature DANG fast...

Probably not. (If it does, no epic spells, regardless.)

However, as long as I advance sorcerer casting at every level, I'll have 9th level spells at 20. I already have knowledge arcane capped. Religion is way lower, and nature is nonexistent.

Talya
2008-04-16, 06:13 AM
For a no loss prestige class that you already qualify for (except, perhaps the fluff thing), you could go Ruathar..
It's a free reflex save bonus, skill points, and a larger hit die (at worst).

Or you could hit another bard prestige class and just have it advance in sorcerer for the spellcasting increase. Few specifically say to be 'bard only'.

If you have the setup from your bard skills at all done, you might be able to hit Unseen Seer, which wouldn't lose much.

You could also dip in to paragnostic initiate without losing much of anything (if you have the skill points set up right).


Are you able to use the dragon magazines?


Yes, although everything needs approved by my DM individually.

I think Unseen Seer requires skill points I didn't take. Paragnostic Apostle (the spellcasting one) is a possibility I was considering.

Darrin
2008-04-16, 07:44 AM
Anybody know of any other PrCs I could use that would continue to boost my sorcerer level (at full, for 2 levels anyway. Can't sacrifice another sorcerer level), and also boost my level 2 bardic casting up a couple levels? Otherwise I go back to sorcerer for my last two levels, which is a class without benefits other than spellcasting, really.

The only PrC that advances two different arcane classes is Ultimate Magus. It's designed for someone with spontaneous caster levels and non-spontaneous caster levels. However, if your Sorcerer/Bard took the feat Arcane Preparation (CompArc), he could probably qualify for Ultimate Magus.

Most likely, you'd have to designate your Sorcerer levels as non-spontaneous (since you need to be able to prepare 2nd level spells), and Bard as spontaneous. Which is probably best, because Ultimate Magus advances non-spontaneous caster levels 10/10 and spontaneous 7/10, so you'd still get 9th level Sorcerer spells. Your bard levels would advance 10/10 and Sorcerer would advance 7/10, so by all means pick up Sublime Chord at ECL 11 to get 9th level spells. (Sublime Chord shouldn't care that your 3rd level spells are from Sorcerer, not bard. Meeting the skill requirements may be a royal pain, however.)

[< Notice: Nitpicking >]
Ultimate Magus does not explicitly require you to have wizard levels, only that you can "prepare" 2nd level spells. So Arcane Preparation should work... until you get to the rest of that sentence, which mentions, "from a spellbook". Arcane Preparation does not explicitly give you a spellbook, nor does it say you even need one. And it's probably a safe bet that every sorcerer who takes this feat doesn't bother with a spellbook.

On the other hand, the feat does say, "You can prepare an arcane spell ahead of time, just as a wizard does." (emphasis mine). Which could imply that even though it would be completely meaningless, you could prepare from a spellbook if you wanted to. Since you already know all your spells, there would be no significant penalty if your spellbook were lost, stolen, or destroyed. Also, neither the feat or PrC mention that it has to be your spellbook, and there are rules for preparing spells from someone else's spellbook. So, borrow a wizard's spellbook, prepare a couple 2nd level spells with your Arcane Preparation feat, and give it back once you've gotten into Ultimate Magus.
[< End Notice >]

Other ways to Theurge two spontaneous casters... there's a Divine Bard variant in UA, I believe. A Sorcerer/Shujenga would be two spontaneous casters. Both combos could take advantage of Mystic Theurge. A Warlock/Dragonfire Adept is also sometimes considered a type of spontaneous arcane caster (with double-caster Eldritch Disiple/Theurge analogs), if you look at it from the right angle on every second thursday after a blue moon.

Talya
2008-04-16, 08:54 AM
Ultimate Magus advances non-spontaneous caster levels 10/10 and spontaneous 7/10, so you'd still get 9th level Sorcerer spells.


Please confirm this. As I read Ultimate Magus's description, it seems to me to indicate that at levels where it doesn't advance both classes, it only advances the lower levelled of your two spellcasting classes...so if I were to use it, it would advance bardic casting at first level, but not sorcerer. If that happened, I miss out on ninth level spells, so I wouldn't use it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-16, 09:05 AM
Please confirm this. As I read Ultimate Magus's description, it seems to me to indicate that at levels where it doesn't advance both classes, it only advances the lower levelled of your two spellcasting classes...so if I were to use it, it would advance bardic casting at first level, but not sorcerer. If that happened, I miss out on ninth level spells, so I wouldn't use it.Correct, unless you use Practiced Spellcaster or Precocious Apprentice, both of which wouldn't work for you at this point. I recommend finding a Bardic PrC with +1 to Arcane Spellcasting and just using that.

Talya
2008-04-16, 09:31 AM
Correct, unless you use Practiced Spellcaster or Precocious Apprentice, both of which wouldn't work for you at this point. I recommend finding a Bardic PrC with +1 to Arcane Spellcasting and just using that.

Any suggestions? I can't find an easily qualified bardic PrC that advances arcane spellcasting at +1 per level.

Darrin
2008-04-16, 10:06 AM
Please confirm this. As I read Ultimate Magus's description, it seems to me to indicate that at levels where it doesn't advance both classes, it only advances the lower levelled of your two spellcasting classes...so if I were to use it, it would advance bardic casting at first level, but not sorcerer. If that happened, I miss out on ninth level spells, so I wouldn't use it.


Whoops, good catch. I wasn't reading the table correctly, Ultimate Magus only advances the lowest casting class 10/10. (Original post edited.)

Although... you could go into Sublime Chord at ECL 11 and get 9th level spells that way, using Ultimate Magus to advance the Sublime Chord casting progression. Making the skill requirements, though... ugh.